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Do you think forced-grouping could work if...

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  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,610

    Until a study proves otherwise, the connection is obvious. Communities went downhill when games became more soloable, and the thing is, communities aren't improving.

    And you have studies to back this up? Of course you don't as it's utter nonsense.

    There are literally hundreds of great online communities devoted to single player games (Skyrim/Fallout/Minecraft etc, the list is endless) that prove you don't need group encouraged games to form great communities.

    image
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    People trying to dismiss the correlation between group oriented games and strong communities:

    Until a study proves otherwise, the connection is obvious. Communities went downhill when games became more soloable, and the thing is, communities aren't improving.


    No. People are just dismissing that strong communities are important.

    In fact, it is quite clear that MMOs are solo-able, and also disposable because players are looking for gameplay fun, and communities are just incidental. Otherwise games with toxic communities (like LoL0 would not be so popular.
  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    The primary issue with forced grouping (beyond personal preference) is what do you do when you can't find a group?

    ...
    I can't agree with this statement more! It's the truth. It applies to all mmo's that require grouping in any context.. In WoW, when you're level capped and want to raid but can't find the necessary members? What do you do? Wait? Go Craft? Log off?

    There were too many times where I just sat on my thumbs, watching shouts.

    Someone claimed FFXI didn't have an LFG system. It did! It was very basic though. You could only seek on the job you were on, and only if you weren't in a party. It had robust elements but needed...more. Much more.

    Thankfully, this is one area where MMOs have VASTLY improved over the years. Learning new and better ways.

    You can have all of these:

    - Traditional Grouping

    - Level Sync/sidekicking where you can go down to the party leader's level, or bring the party up to yours. I prefer level sync.

    - Encouraging randoms to join up as a source for their precious tokens (currency for endgame content).

    - Cross-server group finders for open-world content and instanced content.

    - NPCs smart enough to fill the roles.

    - Rested EXP Buffs

    - Like I said earlier in the thread, the longer a person waits in a LFG queue, the more exp they should get when they finally get in. If an average dungeon takes 30 minutes, each minute they spend in the queue will earn them 3.3% (100/average time) bonus exp per kill up to a cap of say 200%. Tanks will benefit the least from this, as they always get groups quickly. Healers almost as quickly. DPS are the ones who suffer. They might spend the full 30 minutes in queue, so when they get in, they'll gain twice the exp of the tank.

    - Public Quests (Rifts/Fates/Nexuses) - IN MODERATION, these can be great. The problem, like I've said, with thease is you have players just using their fastest aoe to tag things.

    - NPC-oriented training missions that reward exp and teach people how to play their jobs.

    - FFXIV's crafting was the best ever in one regard. Treated as a job all it's own, you could craft/harvest while LFP.

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.

  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk Member RarePosts: 1,570
    immodium said:

    Until a study proves otherwise, the connection is obvious. Communities went downhill when games became more soloable, and the thing is, communities aren't improving.

    And you have studies to back this up? Of course you don't as it's utter nonsense.

    There are literally hundreds of great online communities devoted to single player games (Skyrim/Fallout/Minecraft etc, the list is endless) that prove you don't need group encouraged games to form great communities.
    I think it goes without saying that the OP isn't referring to single player games but to MMO's, we are after all on the MMORPG.com forum.

    I think it would be equally obvious that he's not referring to the modding community backing games like Skyrim but to the online community that exists within an MMO's game world or shard. In that example he's completely correct. Comparing the server community  of say an old EQ server with any modern solo centric MMO (take your pick here) there is a marked difference in the level of community and co-operation.

    Modern MMO's are designed from the ground up for a solo experience with a few group dungeons thrown in along the way but they are in no way required content. This fosters a community that has no use for other players until they get to the level cap and start to raid, if the game includes them. In either case you're more likely to have a toxic FPS style community that an old school MMO community. Sweeping generalities aside, there will always be a few helpful players that don't talk smack and help players out but for the most part my experience of modern MMO's has been pretty dire when it comes to community.
  • LynxJSALynxJSA Member RarePosts: 3,233
    People trying to dismiss the correlation between group oriented games and strong communities:


    No one is trying to dismiss it. Even you don't believe that, otherwise you wouldn't hav changed the term to make your statement valid. Several here have stated that incentivizing interaction or rewarding interaction makes for good community. 

    ATITD is a group oriented game. Puzzle Pirates is a group oriented game. Neither one of them forces grouping. Neither one of them makes solo play intentionally more difficult, yet both have great communities. 

    There, Second Life, and Furcadia are group oriented games, but there is no mechanic that makes it harder or more difficult to participate in content if a person attempts it alone. In each of those games much of the social and community content is built or initiated by individuals. 


    Disingenuous claims and intentional misdirection isn't productive. No one is falling for it, and it doesn't help further the discussion.

     



    -- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? --
  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,610
    edited November 2015

    I think it goes without saying that the OP isn't referring to single player games but to MMO's, we are after all on the MMORPG.com forum.

    I think it would be equally obvious that he's not referring to the modding community backing games like Skyrim but to the online community that exists within an MMO's game world or shard. In that example he's completely correct. Comparing the server community  of say an old EQ server with any modern solo centric MMO (take your pick here) there is a marked difference in the level of community and co-operation.

    Modern MMO's are designed from the ground up for a solo experience with a few group dungeons thrown in along the way but they are in no way required content. This fosters a community that has no use for other players until they get to the level cap and start to raid, if the game includes them. In either case you're more likely to have a toxic FPS style community that an old school MMO community. Sweeping generalities aside, there will always be a few helpful players that don't talk smack and help players out but for the most part my experience of modern MMO's has been pretty dire when it comes to community.
    Purely anecdotal.

    The central source of douchedom in any MMO is not from the solo crowd, it's the people who like to group. Whether it's an old/new is irrelevant, it's always been the case.

    So catering to solo players does not increase toxic communities or degrade them.

    The reason you're seeing an increased number of idiots (and also a great more number of nice people) is online gaming is very cheap compared to the past.

    FPS games like Doom and Quake had great communities, during that time you had to pay per minute to play online, now it's completely free.

    image
  • eye_meye_m Member UncommonPosts: 3,317

    I don't like the term "forced grouping" I prefer "a co-operative multiplayer situation"


    I also don't like the term "solo" I prefer "playing with the only person that thinks I'm interesting"


    I find grouping in mmo's is not such a big deal, the problem is that it's easier to not bother.  I think the perspective that game designers should use is that if a person chooses to go through content without a group, that the time invested should end up being proportionately longer. If the content was intended for 6 people, than soloing should take 6 times as long or at least a suitable compromise.

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

    I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775

    I think it goes without saying that the OP isn't referring to single player games but to MMO's, we are after all on the MMORPG.com forum.


    You did not read the other thread? MMORPG.com is not only about traditional MMORPGs anymore.

    I don't see why this does not apply to other online games, which incidentally, some have forced grouping.
  • LynxJSALynxJSA Member RarePosts: 3,233
    edited November 2015
    eye_m said:

    I also don't like the term "solo" I prefer "playing with the only person that thinks I'm interesting"


    The silliness of the first line aside, consider this for the second one (quoted):

    The majority of the most famous and most memorable contributors to community gameplay - good or bad - in MMOs have been players that spend more time solo than grouped by game mechanics. If anything, forced grouping prevents those players from standing out or taking their place in the game's history. 
    -- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? --
  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,766
    Regardless of the original design intentions, it may be inevitable for games to grow more solo-friendly over time.

    We don't have a huge number of data points to study, but there aren't any decade-old games that have not grown less dedicated to "forced grouping" over time. Including EQ and FFXI.

    And I think that's for reasons that should be obvious. We like to say "they caved!" but it's almost certainly for reasons of Retention.

    Which, the proprietary former owners (consumers) of the older titles never, ever like.



    I'm not sure making the games more solo friendly lead to retention.  That was surely the idea but I'm not sure it actually worked.

    After WoW was released, everybody thought that solo-centric MMOs was the way to go.

    But the past decade has shown that just because you make a game like WoW, it's not guaranteed to succeed.  The vast majority of them have failed.


  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,766



    Obviously, MMOs are designed to be social games
    Obviously not anymore.

    Many can be enjoyed as solo-game. The social aspect is completely optional in many MMOs. 
    They can, but by doing that you lose out on the main advantage MMOs have over single player games- the interaction with other people.
  • eye_meye_m Member UncommonPosts: 3,317
    LynxJSA said:
    eye_m said:

    I also don't like the term "solo" I prefer "playing with the only person that thinks I'm interesting"


    The silliness of the first line aside, consider this for the second one (quoted):

    The majority of the most famous and most memorable contributors to community gameplay - good or bad - in MMOs have been players that spend more time solo than grouped by game mechanics. If anything, forced grouping prevents those players from standing out or taking their place in the game's history. 
    I'm not sure whose comment is sillier, mine or yours.  Nobody ever is memorable by themselves, you can only be remembered by the other people who were there.  Nobody ever is famous without others applauding their efforts.   People that are determined to be alone do not gain respect, adoration, friendship, mentorship, or fellowship. Those are social constructs and require social interaction.

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

    I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.

  • LynxJSALynxJSA Member RarePosts: 3,233
    eye_m said:
    LynxJSA said:
    eye_m said:

    I also don't like the term "solo" I prefer "playing with the only person that thinks I'm interesting"


    The silliness of the first line aside, consider this for the second one (quoted):

    The majority of the most famous and most memorable contributors to community gameplay - good or bad - in MMOs have been players that spend more time solo than grouped by game mechanics. If anything, forced grouping prevents those players from standing out or taking their place in the game's history. 
    I'm not sure whose comment is sillier, mine or yours.  Nobody ever is memorable by themselves, you can only be remembered by the other people who were there.  Nobody ever is famous without others applauding their efforts.   People that are determined to be alone do not gain respect, adoration, friendship, mentorship, or fellowship. Those are social constructs and require social interaction.
    I'm not sure if you're being obtuse or if you really don't know/understand any type of gameplay outside of killing mobs solo and killing mobs in a group. Either way, we're at an impasse, so I guess the best bet here is to agree to disagree. 

    -- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? --
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,530
    Forcing ANYTHING is bad.

    Encouraging through mechanics is good.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

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    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • NorseGodNorseGod Member EpicPosts: 2,634
    This just sounds like single player gamers want to be apart of the MMORPG crowd but without any of the MMO parts.

    They don't belong to the genre and forced themselves upon us anyways.

    Generally, when I get the feeling that I am unwanted, I leave. But, that was before people had no shame.
    To talk about games without the censorship, check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    I prefer my MMO with "forced" grouping, like I prefer my sports with forced running.


  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    Regardless of the original design intentions, it may be inevitable for games to grow more solo-friendly over time.

    ...
    I'm not sure making the games more solo friendly lead to retention.  That was surely the idea but I'm not sure it actually worked.

    So much this! In any mmo I've played, from FFXI to WoW (and many others, but those two are polar opposites), the thing that keeps people playing is attachment to their friends, and to their characters.

    How many times have you worked to help a friend complete a task that you weren't, yourself, entirely interested in? In the content lulls, friendships and bonds really matter. How many of us reach the point that dungeon that was, at release, moderately hard, is so far on farm that the healer tanks when the tank has to afk? Remember all the laughing and joking on teamspeak/etc? Or what about the times that maybe the overgeared tank maybe shouldn't have pulled the whole instance. Maybe. Everybody chuckles, ribs the tank about it for the next few months.

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    NorseGod said:
    This just sounds like single player gamers want to be apart of the MMORPG crowd but without any of the MMO parts.

    They don't belong to the genre and forced themselves upon us anyways.


    You got it reversed. The MMORPG devs want single player gamers to be part of their audience. 

    I doubt single player gamers would care much about MMORPGs if they are not made into solo-friendly games.

    You should ask the devs why they want the solo crowd so much ... i bet it has something to do with money.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775




    Obviously, MMOs are designed to be social games
    Obviously not anymore.

    Many can be enjoyed as solo-game. The social aspect is completely optional in many MMOs. 
    They can, but by doing that you lose out on the main advantage MMOs have over single player games- the interaction with other people.
    It is ONLY an advantage if you like interaction with others.

    I enjoy playing MMOs as a single player game much more .. and if i have fun this way, is there a reason why i should not?
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775



    I'm not sure making the games more solo friendly lead to retention.  

    You don't need much retention to make money off f2p games. Data show that most (80%) quit in 30 days.

    https://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/understanding-mmo-retention/

    It is really not about retention anymore. It is about fleecing the whales. 
  • NorseGodNorseGod Member EpicPosts: 2,634
    edited November 2015
    NorseGod said:
    This just sounds like single player gamers want to be apart of the MMORPG crowd but without any of the MMO parts.

    They don't belong to the genre and forced themselves upon us anyways.


    You got it reversed. The MMORPG devs want single player gamers to be part of their audience. 

    I doubt single player gamers would care much about MMORPGs if they are not made into solo-friendly games.

    You should ask the devs why they want the solo crowd so much ... i bet it has something to do with money.
    No I don't. It's people like you, that games are in the mess they are in.

    You don't give a shit about MMORPGs. You are a freeloading locust. You care nothing for the success of a game as long as you can play for free and leave for a different game as soon as you hit a wall.

    You bitch for 10 minutes of free "entertainment". Your opinion doesn't mean a damn to anybody.

    Doesn't matter if the game is good or not to you, you're never going to stay around anyways. 2 million others are just like you, leave a true fan of MMORPGs that play as a hobby screwed.
    To talk about games without the censorship, check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/
  • SoloAnythingSoloAnything Member UncommonPosts: 308
    People trying to dismiss the correlation between group oriented games and strong communities:

    Until a study proves otherwise, the connection is obvious. Communities went downhill when games became more soloable, and the thing is, communities aren't improving.

    Some people are naturally nice, and a highly competitive game will either change them or cause them to leave because stealing kills is not their idea of fun.

    Some are naturally mean to anyone that they don't have a use for, and a teamwork-oriented game will either cause them to work with other players, cause them to leave, or isolate themselves with other like-minded afkholes.

    It is more than likely true that a teamwork-oriented game will never be as successful as a solo with everyone else game.

    I fully acknowledge that a polished up FFXI will never be as successful as WoW, and probably not as FFXIV, but you don't have to be king of the mountain to be great.

    Companies aren't trying it because it's not how Blizzard got ELEVENTY MILLION PEOPLE. Nobody wants to be Target, they want to be Wal Mart. Wal Mart, imo, is a great comparison to Blizzard. Everyone seems to hate it (me as well), but even hated so much, it's still the biggest of them.

    The great thing about XI, is they never tried to compete with WoW. When they introduced more solo-friendly tools, it's because the game was lacking an influx of new players. Two of those tools, Level-sync and Campaign Battle removed the relevancy of closeness of levels/gear from playing together (in those contexts).
    The moment ffxi introduced solo able content is when game died and wasn't as fun anymore. Died for me and everyone I knew in game. Solo content should not be in mmorpg if there is then make a new genre like single player rpg with mmo chat.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    NorseGod said:


    You bitch for 10 minutes of free "entertainment". Your opinion doesn't mean a damn to anybody.


    Apparently my opinion mean a lot more to devs than MMO "purists". Otherwise, why would they cater to my preferences, and let me play their games for free?
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775

    Solo content should not be in mmorpg if there is then make a new genre like single player rpg with mmo chat.
    The devs already made that new genre ... they just call them MMORPG. It is just semantics.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,004
    NorseGod said:


    You bitch for 10 minutes of free "entertainment". Your opinion doesn't mean a damn to anybody.


    Apparently my opinion mean a lot more to devs than MMO "purists". Otherwise, why would they cater to my preferences, and let me play their games for free?
    The need you as fodder for the whales, cheaper than providing quality content.


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