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Do you think forced-grouping could work if...

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  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,061
    edited December 2015
    Kyleran said:
    "I'm looking for a game that brings back the multiplayer to mmo."
    Any game with OPTIONAL grouping has that multiplayer part you crave for. The only difference is that you have to go towards other people, since they aren't forced to endure you just because they have no choice. If you are unable to do that, then the problem lies with YOU, and not with the game design.
    I think we're different type of people, and that's fine.

    I do gravitate towards other people.
    Not sure you do. Otherwise, you wouldn't need them to be forced to gravitate towards you.

    And about the rest of your post, there are bad players in every game. That's what guilds and friends are for. That's why you go towards other likeminded people to befriend them.

    Can't remember the last time I had a bad PUG experience in a non-raid dungeon. Because I always go with a majority of guildies and/or real life friends. If we happen to have the rare "dipshit", we just kick him. And for raids, I go with my guild, so no risk there.


    Just curious, when was the last time you played a MMO "cold", without taking anyone you know, and started making new contacts from scratch?  Have you ever done it?
    I see what you're trying to do, and I may as well return the question, but whatever...

    I've added 2 new people I call "friend" (and not just "online coplayer") to my list this year from MMORPGs.
    Note that I'm not the kind to call everyone I meet online (and also offline) "friend". To achieve that status, you have to be more than just someone playing some role in the groups/raids I'm part of. Actually, you don't have to group with me at all, socializing is the word, and that doesn't always require to bash some mobs for XP or loot together.

    When it comes to acquaintances, aka people I regularly play with, I can't really count them since there are many spread over many games, old and new.

    For instance...
    I started GW2 cold. I ended co-leading a guild of people I'm still playing with nowadays, also in other games.
    I started The Crew cold. Not many friends where interested in that kinda special MMO. I'm now regularly playing with other likeminded adult mature players who enjoy the game in the same way I do.

    No need for forced grouping to meet other people, be it simple co-players or future friends.
    Don't limit what's possible to the limits of your own imagination or capabilities. Or did you get so used to games pushing people towards you that you forgot how to naturally go towards them ?
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    He can think whatever he likes, he doesn't know me.

    In sociable group-oriented games, I have lots of friends. I blend with that type of people really well. In games like WoW, or most modern mmos, where the community is so vile and jaded (because it's the same unhappy group migrating from one to the next), I don't do very well because I don't even want to play.

    When I join a group and the super geared dd, who isn't even as geared as I am, starts complaining because the other dd is new, and this happens constantly, I just don't even want to bother.

    I don't want anyone to be forced to do anything they don't want, I just want a game that is, at its core, something that people either love or hate: Content designed around grouping.

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,552
    edited December 2015
    The best groups I have been in were games were grouping was not required but just fun. No one needed gear, xp earned solo was just fine... CoH and Istaria. 


    I like groups the best when no one needs them, but just wants them.
      Hmm think I'll make that my new sig.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    The best groups I have been in were games were grouping was not required but just fun. No one needed gear, xp earned solo was just fine... CoH and Istaria.
    Two honest questions, because I never played CoH: What did you need if not gear or exp?

    Was exp faster in a group? Because that's exactly what I am looking for. I don't want solo to be dead, but I want a game where grouping is fundamental to the game.

    Even in hardcore-grouping XI, there were soloists that you'd see in random places and never ever joined a group, or they only played with one or two friends and had nothing to do with others. There were also people that only interacted with others when they had to, when some part of the story missions required more people.

    As to your new sig: "Quit worrying about others and just play."

    I'm not worried about others, or negatively concerned about others, I hope they find a game they enjoy and play it. I'm looking for the type of game that I enjoy, and that game is group-centric.

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,552
    edited December 2015
    You needed Xp to level, but you didn't need a group to do it. Soloing was completely viable.  There was no gear in the game. Years later that added gear like costume pieces.

    Mobs dropped enhancement buffs that made your powers stronger some permanent (but could be swapped out) others temporary. Almost eery class could solo effectively, some support (healers and controllers) killed slower but they could hold or heal and so were still very effective.

    People grouped just cause it was fun and fast and admittedly there is something kind of fun about seeing a zillion super powers flashing everywhere (kind surprised I never heard of seizures actually).

    That all got destroyed later with the architect system - such a good idea gone so horribly wrong. :(

    Xp was slightly faster grouping.  Architect made it about 100x faster.

    in the late game I believe the controllers were the most powerful too.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,552
    All the powers just complimented each other. Tanks would herd them all up, controllers would lock them all down, while blasters and mellee exploded and poked them and healers/buffers made us all super fast and nie invulnerable.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,552
    Sorry for the three posts - Istaria is a bit different. Everyone can learn everything. But it is a slow game, slow travel (even running is slow), xp is slow.  Groups sped it up a bit. Most things are crafted, in the beginning there were no loot drops, maybe just some crafting material, now there are loot drops but they are not nearly as good. 

    People group to kill a tough mob, it was needed for a quest, loot again wasn't the motivator, because there really isn't any good loot (a couple pieces) and xp is still slow but people just like to group.  Not as much anymore unfortunately because there is only a few hundred people playing now.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    Sorry for the three posts - Istaria is a bit different. Everyone can learn everything. But it is a slow game, slow travel (even running is slow), xp is slow.  Groups sped it up a bit. Most things are crafted, in the beginning there were no loot drops, maybe just some crafting material, now there are loot drops but they are not nearly as good. 

    People group to kill a tough mob, it was needed for a quest, loot again wasn't the motivator, because there really isn't any good loot (a couple pieces) and xp is still slow but people just like to group.  Not as much anymore unfortunately because there is only a few hundred people playing now.
    Believe it or not, that description largely fits older FFXI. Travel wasn't that slow, but you had to earn faster travel. Unless you raised your own chocobo which was a mess of a thing, you could only obtain a mount in cities/towns. You could deliver supplies to outposts and outpost to them (for money) and warp from them, if they weren't "beastmen-controlled".

    Leveling up, most of the best gear was crafted. At level-cap, it was probably 70% loot, 30% crafted or combined effort. For instance you could get a Abjuration (boss drop) and a cursed piece of armor (crafted) and combine the two to lift the curse and make a great piece of equipment.

    I guess the key difference between the two, from your short description, is that XP was much better from "Incredibly tough" (meh, just tough) so people desired to group. But that was a reason to play the game.

    FFXI didn't force grouping upon people that didn't want it, it found people that wanted it and gave them a place to do it.

    Loot wasn't the motivator for leveling, people *wanted* to cap jobs, and most of the people that played XI liked to do that in groups.

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772


    I like groups the best when no one needs them, but just wants them.
      Hmm think I'll make that my new sig.
    Exactly .. games should let players play the way they want to. If not, players can always leave. 
  • AntiquatedAntiquated Member RarePosts: 1,415
    But aren't we supposed to be all about disenfranchising those horrible solo players we hate and fear so much?

    "Great communities," ya know.

    Maybe we should make them wear badges.
  • linadragonlinadragon Member RarePosts: 581
    I think there needs to be more of a focus on group content and meaningful non combat oriented content in general. MMORPGs have in large part become this mass solo experience until you reach end game and then it is oft churning over the same content repeatedly to earn this or that. The entire premise of end game itself is sort of at fault as the journey to end game is less important of a feature anymore and MMORPGs have basically become driven by a mindset of fast leveling, no real world building or exploration, and no real building of community outside of a guild if you are lucky and then often that is just for raiding or running dungeons and there is no meaningful interaction with them.

    The word "Forced" is a little meh, but I think the community itself needs a little bit of a shove into the non socially inept corner of the world and have gotta learn to interact in more than passing for a dungeon or raid. We also need to make the journey to end game substantial and mean something. I get sick of this I can hit level cap in less than a month bull shit we deal with anymore and then leveling zone progression is so damn linear as a result of this too.

    Then we also deal with the fact that non combat gameplay styles are never really a thought. Crafting oft feels like a tacked on after though of "meh lets just get it over with"

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    I think there needs to be more of a focus on group content and meaningful non combat oriented content in general. 

    Why? If the audience is playing these games for combat, why bother with non-combat content?
  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    I think there needs to be more of a focus on group content and meaningful non combat oriented content in general. 

    Why? If the audience is playing these games for combat, why bother with non-combat content?
    Maybe because some people find the combat to be repetitive and boring in these games.  They also may be looking for something that replicates more than just combat situations.  A lot of people enjoyed crafting in the UO days.  In EQ a lot of people enjoyed just buying and selling items in game.  There were a lot of different activities to enjoy that were non combat related.  Most of them were created by the player base.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    Flyte27 said:
    I think there needs to be more of a focus on group content and meaningful non combat oriented content in general. 

    Why? If the audience is playing these games for combat, why bother with non-combat content?
    Maybe because some people find the combat to be repetitive and boring in these games.  They also may be looking for something that replicates more than just combat situations.  A lot of people enjoyed crafting in the UO days.  In EQ a lot of people enjoyed just buying and selling items in game.  There were a lot of different activities to enjoy that were non combat related.  Most of them were created by the player base.
    Read carefully ... "IF the audience is playing these games for combat"

    Those who find combat to be repetitive and boring would not be playing these games. The assumption of my question is that devs are catering to the combat-centric gamers.

    Now you can debate whether that is a big market of not (given that battlefront is selling a lot even when it is not reviewed that well, and there are a huge number of highly successful combat centric games, i would say yes), but if devs want to focus on combat games, again, why would they care about non-combat content?

    Note that Inadragon argue that there needs to be "noncombat oriented content IN GENERAL". Again, why? Does warframe needs non-combat content? Does Diablo 3 needs that? Does Marve Heroes need that?

    Sure .. there is a little bit of crafting and selling in some of these games ... but "meaning non-combat oriented content"? (like farming sim, making furniture mini-game and what-not)
  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    But aren't we supposed to be all about disenfranchising those horrible solo players we hate and fear so much?

    "Great communities," ya know.

    Maybe we should make them wear badges.
    Solo players, just like anti-social people in real life, disenfranchise themselves, whether for necessity (play at erratic times) or desire (playing for story/economy/exploration).

    If your town has a great community, you don't give it crap because it won't drag that one anti-social guy out of his house to involve him.

    I've got nothing against solo players, even wanting a game focused on group-based content. I have nothing against people who play solitaire, even though I prefer poker.

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.

  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,019
    But aren't we supposed to be all about disenfranchising those horrible solo players we hate and fear so much?

    "Great communities," ya know.

    Maybe we should make them wear badges.
    Solo players, just like anti-social people in real life, disenfranchise themselves, whether for necessity (play at erratic times) or desire (playing for story/economy/exploration).

    If your town has a great community, you don't give it crap because it won't drag that one anti-social guy out of his house to involve him.

    I've got nothing against solo players, even wanting a game focused on group-based content. I have nothing against people who play solitaire, even though I prefer poker.
    Except you continue to fail to see that you can play/make any mmo content into group-based content. Look at wow, you can do dailies in a group, rep farming in a group, rare-hunting in a group, xyz123 in a group. And guess what, if you did all of those in a group, you'd be a hell of a lot more efficient as well as having the chance to be social to make the grind not hurt so much.

    Sure, you could solo all of those things if you wanted to, but that doesnt mean you can't or shouldn't group for them either. And this is what people are trying to tell you. There's no reason to ask or want devs to make a mmo that is completely centered around group-based content because the ability to make any mmo's content group-based already exists by simply...making a fucking group.

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  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    edited December 2015
    Sephiroso said:

    Solo players, just like anti-social people in real life, disenfranchise themselves, whether for necessity (play at erratic times) or desire (playing for story/economy/exploration).

    If your town has a great community, you don't give it crap because it won't drag that one anti-social guy out of his house to involve him.

    I've got nothing against solo players, even wanting a game focused on group-based content. I have nothing against people who play solitaire, even though I prefer poker.
    Except you continue to fail to see that you can play/make any mmo content into group-based content. Look at wow, you can do dailies in a group, rep farming in a group, rare-hunting in a group, xyz123 in a group. And guess what, if you did all of those in a group, you'd be a hell of a lot more efficient as well as having the chance to be social to make the grind not hurt so much.

    Sure, you could solo all of those things if you wanted to, but that doesnt mean you can't or shouldn't group for them either. And this is what people are trying to tell you. There's no reason to ask or want devs to make a mmo that is completely centered around group-based content because the ability to make any mmo's content group-based already exists by simply...making a fucking group.
    I'm not looking to play round robin solitaire where I decide what to do with one card and my buddy decides what do with the next.

    I'm not trying to be a smart-*** but seeking a group for soloable content feels silly.

    However, in games with DFs, I DF my tanks and healers all the way to level cap because I like grouping and then at level cap I run into all the people who solo'd/fated/rifted all the way to cap and have no idea how to play their class in content.

    (Edit: I don't play DD's because static rotations bore me and I like protecting my groups. I make it a point to deeply understand the threat/agro/hate/enmity mechanics of every game I play.)

    It's like coaching a football team one-on-one with each player but never having them interact until game day.

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,552
    Anytime my group found the content we are doing to be easy... we did harder content.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • AntiquatedAntiquated Member RarePosts: 1,415
    edited December 2015
    Anytime my group found the content we are doing to be easy... we did harder content.
    All the way up to and including the top-tier raid at the time.

    My solution for soloing was generally working with a partner (on an essentially every-day basis) and using guildies or grabbing a few PUGs from the friends list as required for "group" content.

    I didn't/don't/shouldn't ever need a dev team to do this sort of thing for me by force. Nor should group/lack of group ever be used as a gating system to block character advancement.

    What's weird to me is the assumption that players want to play one way, or the other, all the time. I never found that to be the case.
  • FdzzaiglFdzzaigl Member UncommonPosts: 2,433
    I don't think "forced grouping" could work under any circumstance, no matter how easy you make it.

    However, I have a problem with the term "forced grouping" in the first place. It implies that you are pushed to do something you don't actually want to do. While in many older MMO's you'd simply seek out a group once you'd encounter an obstacle you couldn't overcome, then you'd have fun with your group of people overcoming that.

    You WANTED to group and even though you couldn't have overcome that obstacle yourself, it didn't feel like anything FORCED you into that group. At least not most of the time.

    Honestly, I believe this entire mentality change has to do with the complete lack of worthwile networks or inter-player relations established in many newer games. So maybe you'd actually make grouping less "forced" if you gave up on a group finder and went back to the good old LFG spam and /who list.

    Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    Fdzzaigl said:
    I don't think "forced grouping" could work under any circumstance, no matter how easy you make it.

    However, I have a problem with the term "forced grouping" in the first place. It implies that you are pushed to do something you don't actually want to do. While in many older MMO's you'd simply seek out a group once you'd encounter an obstacle you couldn't overcome, then you'd have fun with your group of people overcoming that.

    You WANTED to group and even though you couldn't have overcome that obstacle yourself, it didn't feel like anything FORCED you into that group. At least not most of the time.

    Honestly, I believe this entire mentality change has to do with the complete lack of worthwile networks or inter-player relations established in many newer games. So maybe you'd actually make grouping less "forced" if you gave up on a group finder and went back to the good old LFG spam and /who list.
    Apart from the point where you dwell on the moniker, which many people have, even though nothing really works, what you say is quite insightful.

    However, I believe that LFG tools have improved vastly over the years. It did suck when you couldn't do anything else while LFG, and could go a few hours, several days in a row, unable to get a group. Example: You should be able to seek on one job while playing on another. Makes sense.

    As I have said, I do believe there's something to be said for the party-grinder. Idk, it was somehow more fun to settle down and grind away at the same type of mob, you got to type a little between pulls, tell jokes and pull off some impossible feats like surviving a three-link and knowing everyone did a kick-ass job.

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,061
    Idk, it was somehow more fun to settle down and grind away at the same type of mob...
    What you think is fun, most think was tedious and boring.
    Back then, when games required such a time investment to make only little progress that they felt like they were a second job.
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • k61977k61977 Member RarePosts: 1,245
    I will start by saying that I didn't read most of the responses to this but wanted to voice my feelings on this.  Any game that tries to force me to do anything i don't want to do will be uninstalled right then an their.  You should never try and force any gamer to do anything they do not want to do.  If the game doesn't have a nature feel for grouping outside of instances I probably will not group at all unless that is what I do.

    And saying that a person doesn't know how to play their character without grouping is not the best choice IMO.  It goes on to the elitest attitude that people have to be able to min/max etc..... to know how to play which is not true. 

    Personally I will never again play a game with a dps meter or anything like that running and I normally will auto block anyone who post or says anything about not healing enough, can't keep aggro, or dps isn't high enough.   I don't want to play with those people as they create hostile environments.  A game is to be fun and immersive, not a job where you have to be the best to play it.

    Forced grouping causes all kind of problems that you have no control over, who wants that in their game.
  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    Idk, it was somehow more fun to settle down and grind away at the same type of mob...
    What you think is fun, most think was tedious and boring.
    Back then, when games required such a time investment to make only little progress that they felt like they were a second job.
    I can agree. Taking months of effort to cap was absurd.

    Taking days of casually tagging as many things as possible is equally absurd.

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.

  • FdzzaiglFdzzaigl Member UncommonPosts: 2,433
    edited December 2015

    Apart from the point where you dwell on the moniker, which many people have, even though nothing really works, what you say is quite insightful.

    However, I believe that LFG tools have improved vastly over the years. It did suck when you couldn't do anything else while LFG, and could go a few hours, several days in a row, unable to get a group. Example: You should be able to seek on one job while playing on another. Makes sense.

    As I have said, I do believe there's something to be said for the party-grinder. Idk, it was somehow more fun to settle down and grind away at the same type of mob, you got to type a little between pulls, tell jokes and pull off some impossible feats like surviving a three-link and knowing everyone did a kick-ass job.
    It's not exactly my own theory. When you make stuff easier to do by putting it in the hands of an automated system, you lose the human input. Relations only get established by spending time together, in old MMO's that often meant waiting for a group, getting to the place you needed to be, finding the right people, the best leaders etc.

    Honestly, I don't think there's any turning back. I'm not that nostalgia-blinded. There are literally thousands of MMO's out there, so there's no way any new game can hope to catch all the fish in the pond, they'll need to share the spoils.

    Therefore, developers will also need to be very conscious about what they're trying to do for their game. Follow the trend and go with a groupfinder? Fine, but don't think that your community will love the group content.

    If they're trying to establish a game where people actually LIKE to group, some automated system won't do the job. Such a game will still require people to go through some hardships, where they get to know eachother in the process.

    That said, I don't think it's enough to just put on nostalgia-glasses either. Group grinding might have been more fun than solo-grinding back then, but it ain't enough in this day and age. With some out of the box thinking however, stuff like "Getting to the dungeon entrance" or "Filling in roles" could actually be made fun and rewarding too, without deleting any player input.

    Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

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