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Do you think forced-grouping could work if...

DeathofsageDeathofsage Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
edited November 2015 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
Do you think forced-grouping for decent experience-gain would be acceptable in a modern MMO if the game had a cross-server dungeon finder as a counter-balance to open-world parties*.

The primary reasons for this desire is 1. I'm sick of seeing players at half way to level cap, or all the way there, and having no idea how to play their class because they quested to cap and 2. I really think forced-grouping enhances the sense of community.

Anyone whose read more than one of my posts knows that I love(d) FFXI, especially the community, but there were clearly several other games that required grouping, had strong communities, etc.

At least in FFXI's case, the trouble was that it wasn't always easy to find a party at off-times, or sometimes at peak times. Certain jobs were mandatory, and certain jobs were avoided.

Games today actually care about balance because upset players will go to other games. This has resulted in some homogenization, and some copycatting of other games' classes, but it makes it more fun for everyone when people can get into the game. A lot of the older games, FFXI included, had a "Don't like it? Leave." attitude towards job imbalance which unfortunately never really worked because it was frequently a case that you liked/loved the game, but you needed to level this %*&% class for some useful ability or for your guild, or in FFXI's case, for a subjob.

Like the Rested buff that most games have mimicked, the amount of time you spend in the queue would increase the experience gained from each kill once you get in the dungeon.

If a Tank immediately queues, he gains 100% of exp per kill in the dungeon. If a healer spends 6 minutes, she gains 106% of exp inside, and if a dps spends 25 minutes, they gain 125% per kill in the dungeon.

Those numbers are just a sample, I actually think they should be higher. If the average leveling dungeon takes 30 minutes, then every minute waiting should gain 3% towards this experience buff, probably up to a certain cap like 200%.

* I'd still embrace and love open-world parties. Old-school, finding a camp, settling in, and grinding away--but that doesn't work for every class or every player.

Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.

Post edited by Deathofsage on
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Comments

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,069
    IMO if grouping is forced then the game was not meant to be group based.

    Grouping should happen naturally in mmos, but the system should definitely be group friendly/focused.




  • acidbloodacidblood Member RarePosts: 858
    edited November 2015
    Personally I like the FF:XIV approach... namely that you can solo most quests (though some more open world small group / duo quests would be welcome; FATEs don't count) but there is forced grouping (dungeons) at certain points that are required to progress. Also, yes, group content should always give faster* xp / rewards.

    The issue with FF:XIV (and other MMOs) now though is that the early content is so easy that new players don't need to learn how to play properly and can largely be carried in group content. There are still a few challenges to be found, but they are usually the 'hated' content... it seems most people just want to get to cap and be uber over geared.

    * Note that I said faster, not better, good rewards should be available solo (or duo or small group) if you are willing to put in the time and effort.
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,860
    There are some negative things that happen when grouping that will still make grouping a negative experience for some people.  Personalities that don't play well with others, people with less then optimum builds getting kicked or causing the group to die, people who have to leave because the baby started crying, the group wanting to play for another two hours when you were ready to leave an hour ago, etc.

    You want people in groups who like to group.  Forced grouping means having people who are grouping mostly because they have to.  Some people just like to play alone sometimes.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • AldersAlders Member RarePosts: 2,163
    I don't like the term "forced grouping". I'd rather call it "required grouping".

    It can only work if the game is based around it and if the playerbase understands this from the get go. This means a smaller more like minded community where everyone is all in on grouping being required. Having an option to solo is fine as long as it's not as efficient as grouping. I'd prefer only certain classes be able to solo, but that's me.
  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    Alders said:
    I don't like the term "forced grouping". I'd rather call it "required grouping".

    It can only work if the game is based around it and if the playerbase understands this from the get go. This means a smaller more like minded community where everyone is all in on grouping being required. Having an option to solo is fine as long as it's not as efficient as grouping. I'd prefer only certain classes be able to solo, but that's me.
    Oh yeah, no MMO should try this mid-lifespan. It would cause an upheaval.

    I don't have anything against the guy that wants to run the economy or just explore every portion of every map or do nothing but craft all day and I don't want to impede on their experience. Every single game has them.

    I would just love a game where players that intended to play in groups at level cap had great incentive to do that while leveling up.

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.

  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Member UncommonPosts: 1,102

    acidblood said:
    Personally I like the FF:XIV approach... namely that you can solo most quests (though some more open world small group / duo quests would be welcome; FATEs don't count) but there is forced grouping (dungeons) at certain points that are required to progress. Also, yes, group content should always give faster* xp / rewards.
    Yeah, Fates, and similar Public Quests in other games are a part of the problem. When I played briefly after 2.0 launch, everything was just about tagging as fast as possible (so when I leveled Arcanist to 30, I had Flash equipped--that sort of thing). I learned nothing about how to play Summoner or Scholar (my goal was scholar) from fates.

    Even the boss fates with a big dangerous baddie didn't usually require coordinated play from everyone, was mostly just a wild mess.

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 1,999
    edited November 2015
    I don't understand those MMORPG developers are stupid or not .
    They make game with 99% for solo and then throw in forced group contents . Why ?

    There are only few MMORPG that "do it right" for instances contents .
    For example AIKA online .
    The dungeons (instances) in AIKA are easy (normal) to solo but the drop rate is normal (or low) . The more people in group , the harder the dungeon but have higher drop rate .
    (i don't use D3 as example because it isn't MMORPG)

    Forced group is stupid . If you make a game for solo player , never throw in forced group . Make group is option , with higher risk vs reward .
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    "Forced" anything in an entertainment product? Really?

    Game play elements will work if players are having fun. Otherwise, why would they bother?
  • jalexbrownjalexbrown Member UncommonPosts: 253
    On one hand I love the idea of more group content.  On the other hand I feel like more group content further emphasizes the gap between the have and the have-nots.  Elitism grows proportionally with group content, I think, because more people see each other play.  This is great if you're one of the better players and want the accolades of everyone else, but if you're one of the...let's say not so good players, you end up looking bad to the rest of the playerbase and feel scorned, scolded, mocked, etc for not being as good.
  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    "Forced" anything in an entertainment product? Really?

    Game play elements will work if players are having fun. Otherwise, why would they bother?
    I realize that maybe required was a better word, but you're only forced to group if you choose to play.

    If it's not your cup of tea, that's fine but reading posts in this forum, it seems like it is some people's drink of choice.

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.

  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Member UncommonPosts: 1,102

    On one hand I love the idea of more group content.  On the other hand I feel like more group content further emphasizes the gap between the have and the have-nots.  Elitism grows proportionally with group content, I think, because more people see each other play.  This is great if you're one of the better players and want the accolades of everyone else, but if you're one of the...let's say not so good players, you end up looking bad to the rest of the playerbase and feel scorned, scolded, mocked, etc for not being as good.
    That's fair but I feel like, as someone said, it's already present at level cap, it's just the journey to eg that doesn't require it.

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.

  • sludgebeardsludgebeard Member UncommonPosts: 788
    Saw a recent post talking about forced-grouping and had to make a video response. 

    *Warning Rant/Beard Ahead*

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KQz_TTYZZo&feature=youtu.be
  • jalexbrownjalexbrown Member UncommonPosts: 253

    On one hand I love the idea of more group content.  On the other hand I feel like more group content further emphasizes the gap between the have and the have-nots.  Elitism grows proportionally with group content, I think, because more people see each other play.  This is great if you're one of the better players and want the accolades of everyone else, but if you're one of the...let's say not so good players, you end up looking bad to the rest of the playerbase and feel scorned, scolded, mocked, etc for not being as good.
    That's fair but I feel like, as someone said, it's already present at level cap, it's just the journey to eg that doesn't require it.
    I think there is a bigger issue that needs addressed than just needing more group content.  I think the larger issue to be addressed is that we need more content across the board for all play styles.  We need more group content, but we also need more solo content and more PVP content and more (meaningful) crafting content and more social (designed around socializing, not necessarily grouping) content.  I think saying "we need more group content" is pointing to the symptom and not the problem.
  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    edited November 2015
    I don't think one game can simultaneously balance enticing solo content and group content.

    I also don't think every game needs to require grouping from early levels onward, it's just disheartening that nothing seems to, aside from the remnants of old games.

    As to pvp, that can simultaneously be balanced for 1v1 and groups, though it's a grueling task that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member RarePosts: 2,622

    Man, can't say I've seen a single video presentation of yours that I agreed with.  Such consistency is unusual!  ;)


    Straw man argument in my opinion.   Waiting for hours to find a particular archetype, and being subject to the whims of a healer/tank/whatever isn't a lot of folks idea of fun.  Especially if it gates a large amount of the games content.   You misrepresent things.  Folks just want to be able to do something fun and useful on their own in their own time.  Something.   Don't bitch and moan when people want to see their playstyle get some attention.  


    Makes me real happy that I started out in City of Heroes, and not UO/EQ/WoW.  


    I'll also tell you that you won't find legally mandated graft as a design document in politics, but it still happens.  Intentionally.


    ForcedGroupingForcedGroupingForcedGroupingForcedGroupingForcedGroupingForcedGrouping


    Forced Argument.

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • LynxJSALynxJSA Member RarePosts: 3,188

    l happy that I started out in City of Heroes, and not UO/EQ/WoW.  

    Don't you go dragging UO into this, Argle! ><  

    Other than that, I agree with your whole post. :) 

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,735
    The fundamental part threads with similar "ideas" are missing: Is that what our players want?

    There is no point trying to figure out how to implement certain feature when players do not care about the feature in the first place.
  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    Neither of us can prove what players want, except that it isn't to be found in more of the same.

    I'm not saying a majority want necessary grouping, but the desire isn't absent either.

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.

  • jalexbrownjalexbrown Member UncommonPosts: 253
    Gdemami said:
    The fundamental part threads with similar "ideas" are missing: Is that what our players want?

    There is no point trying to figure out how to implement certain feature when players do not care about the feature in the first place.
    I don't want to speak for the OP, but I believe one of the points of this thread was to illustrate that there is player interest in more grouped content.  The consensus seems to be unclear on "forced" group content, but more group content?  There seems to be agreement.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,735
    edited November 2015
    Neither of us can prove what players want, except that it isn't to be found in more of the same.

    I'm not saying a majority want necessary grouping, but the desire isn't absent either.
    Just look at the market and how the games are being made, it is the best indicator of what people want and in that regard, vast majority if not all MMOs are very much solo friendly.

    No point swimming against the stream...
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,735
    I don't want to speak for the OP, but I believe one of the points of this thread was to illustrate that there is player interest in more grouped content.  The consensus seems to be unclear on "forced" group content, but more group content?  There seems to be agreement.
    What "more" group content you talk about?

    The entire end game is exclusively group focused.
    Group content in leveling process is plenty and optional, forcing group content to level was proven as not working.
  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    Gdemami said:
    The fundamental part threads with similar "ideas" are missing: Is that what our players want?

    There is no point trying to figure out how to implement certain feature when players do not care about the feature in the first place.
    I don't want to speak for the OP, but I believe one of the points of this thread was to illustrate that there is player interest in more grouped content.  The consensus seems to be unclear on "forced" group content, but more group content?  There seems to be agreement.
    I am incapable of escaping the weight of the word "forced".

    I don't want to take someone's game away from them. I don't want to invade their MMOs.

    I want it to be core to a new game and apparent and advertised as such.

    You were mostly right as to my intent, but I definitely think the grouping needs to start early.

    Thanks for not beating me up on semantics. :)

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,735
    I am incapable of escaping the weight of the word "forced".

    I don't want to take someone's game away from them. I don't want to invade their MMOs.

    I want it to be core to a new game and apparent and advertised as such.

    You were mostly right as to my intent, but I definitely think the grouping needs to start early.

    Thanks for not beating me up on semantics. :)
    See, this is what  I was talking about, you actually do not care whether there is any audience for such feature/concept/idea :)
  • jalexbrownjalexbrown Member UncommonPosts: 253
    Saw a recent post talking about forced-grouping and had to make a video response. 

    *Warning Rant/Beard Ahead*

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KQz_TTYZZo&feature=youtu.be
    This argument seems about as legit as saying there's no such thing as forced grouping because nobody is forcing you to play the game.  It might be true, but it's logically questionable.

    Lots of content forces players to group if they want to participate in that content.  And yes, you can say nobody is forcing you to play that content; again, nobody is forcing you to play the game at all.  You might as well say that the speed limit isn't forced, because my car is physically capable of going 100 miles per hour and I don't really, physically have to obey the speed limit if I don't want.

    Actually, speaking of speed limits...let's discuss the difference between forced and enforced.  Semantically you are correct that there is no such thing as forced group.  There is such a thing as enforced grouping though.  "Forced grouping" would indeed imply that I am under complete obligation to perform that action, which we've established I'm not as I can choose to not play that content.  "Enforced grouping" would be like the speed limit; it's encouraged, and it might be unpleasant to be non-compliant.  Not grouping in most MMOs walls off large amounts of the most meaningful content.  I'm going to have less to do, I'm going to have less to achieve, and I'm likely going to be less engaged in my time spent in the game.  That's your "speeding ticket" for choosing to be non-compliant.

    For all intents and purposes though, arguing the difference between forced and enforced is just semantics.  You understand the context of the phrase "forced grouping" perfectly well, but you don't like the phrasing so you decide to try and invalidate the entire concept instead of taking it for what it is.
  • ThaneThane Member RarePosts: 3,446
    edited November 2015
    even tho the term "forced grouping" surely never appeared in a pitch or similiar, most mmos nowadays SURELY will have the term "group focused end content" somewhere in em.

    so quite frankly, it doesn't matter if you like the term or not, let's name one (6 million) example:

    WoW: gl trying to raid without grp

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

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