North American Alpha - TheHiveLeader

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North American Alpha - TheHiveLeader

TheHiveLeader got a chance to play the alpha client for the North American release of Black Desert! Is it just as good now as it was in Russian? Let

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Po_gg

Quite a lot of Gandalf jokes, especially since you're not even a big fan   (remember the beornings vid front page?  https://youtu.be/1_temEdaLhg?t=1m27s )

jesteralways

"Questing is basic" i see and hear that a lot. What is questing in RPG really? RPG questing from the beginning, from the pen and paper days, have always been about killing mob set by dungeon master or the system, on occasion we had to escort someone or disarm traps. If we look back at core RPG that is what it was and that is how visual rpg do it too. So i don't know what people expect when they say "questing is basic" or "questing is boring".

Loktofeit

jesteralways said:

"Questing is basic" i see and hear that a lot. What is questing in RPG really? RPG questing from the beginning, from the pen and paper days, have always been about killing mob set by dungeon master or the system, on occasion we had to escort someone or disarm traps. If we look back at core RPG that is what it was and that is how visual rpg do it too. So i don't know what people expect when they say "questing is basic" or "questing is boring".

Quests in todays MMOs are very different from what I experienced early on. Ignoring pen and paper, MUDs and CRPGs, and just staying within MMOs, most quest now ARE boring. 

Ultima Online - Until Age of Shadows, the game had no quests other than live events and player-created quests. Yes, in the beginning they had bakers asking you to kill the local armorsmith and stuff, but neither players nor the devs considered those to be quests. Having actually worked on many of those live events either in planning or playing characters, this is probably an area where I set myself up with an unrealistic expectation of what quests can or should be in an MMO. 

Asheron's Call - Most quests have traps, pitfalls and other aspects to the adventure. The type of content in many of AC's quests is the type of content often relegated to raid dungeons in today's MMO. Another point worth noting is that gathering viscera for NPC wasn't considered questing. Devs, fansites, and players all viewed them as separate collector and crafter NPCs. Even "Kill x MOBs" was never seen as a quest and was considered Kill Tasks. Maggie The Jack Cat's site was also a good example of the separation of these things, but unfortunately that is no longer around. 


So, when someone says "quest", even leaving my experiences in RPGs prior to MMOs out of the equation, I'm still hoping for (done with expecting) some sort of adventure and not just fedexing, kill quotas, or item gathering. 

Bellomo

The game looks bad ass ill be playing it. Nice review Mr. Hive

Jonnyp2

jesteralways said:

"Questing is basic" i see and hear that a lot. What is questing in RPG really? RPG questing from the beginning, from the pen and paper days, have always been about killing mob set by dungeon master or the system, on occasion we had to escort someone or disarm traps. If we look back at core RPG that is what it was and that is how visual rpg do it too. So i don't know what people expect when they say "questing is basic" or "questing is boring".

I don't think they know what they want either. It's just bitching for the sake of bitching, something I've some to expect from the mmo community.

TheHiveLeader

Jonnyp2 said:

jesteralways said:

"Questing is basic" i see and hear that a lot. What is questing in RPG really? RPG questing from the beginning, from the pen and paper days, have always been about killing mob set by dungeon master or the system, on occasion we had to escort someone or disarm traps. If we look back at core RPG that is what it was and that is how visual rpg do it too. So i don't know what people expect when they say "questing is basic" or "questing is boring".

I don't think they know what they want either. It's just bitching for the sake of bitching, something I've some to expect from the mmo community.

Basic just means it's what we have all come to expect. Nothing new or all that different. I didn't say boring, did I?

Grinnz

Loktofeit said:

jesteralways said:

"Questing is basic" i see and hear that a lot. What is questing in RPG really? RPG questing from the beginning, from the pen and paper days, have always been about killing mob set by dungeon master or the system, on occasion we had to escort someone or disarm traps. If we look back at core RPG that is what it was and that is how visual rpg do it too. So i don't know what people expect when they say "questing is basic" or "questing is boring".

Quests in todays MMOs are very different from what I experienced early on. Ignoring pen and paper, MUDs and CRPGs, and just staying within MMOs, most quest now ARE boring. 

Ultima Online - Until Age of Shadows, the game had no quests other than live events and player-created quests. Yes, in the beginning they had bakers asking you to kill the local armorsmith and stuff, but neither players nor the devs considered those to be quests. Having actually worked on many of those live events either in planning or playing characters, this is probably an area where I set myself up with an unrealistic expectation of what quests can or should be in an MMO. 

Asheron's Call - Most quests have traps, pitfalls and other aspects to the adventure. The type of content in many of AC's quests is the type of content often relegated to raid dungeons in today's MMO. Another point worth noting is that gathering viscera for NPC wasn't considered questing. Devs, fansites, and players all viewed them as separate collector and crafter NPCs. Even "Kill x MOBs" was never seen as a quest and was considered Kill Tasks. Maggie The Jack Cat's site was also a good example of the separation of these things, but unfortunately that is no longer around. 


So, when someone says "quest", even leaving my experiences in RPGs prior to MMOs out of the equation, I'm still hoping for (done with expecting) some sort of adventure and not just fedexing, kill quotas, or item gathering. 

You didn't explain how questing was any more different....just said it used to be player created, or broken into various entities, and now just streamlined into one word....

Quests, have and will always be (and rightly so) part of MMO's. What makes them boring probably has more to do with how the involve the player within the contents of the game, moreso than the fact they are in the game.

jesteralways

Loktofeit said:

jesteralways said:

"Questing is basic" i see and hear that a lot. What is questing in RPG really? RPG questing from the beginning, from the pen and paper days, have always been about killing mob set by dungeon master or the system, on occasion we had to escort someone or disarm traps. If we look back at core RPG that is what it was and that is how visual rpg do it too. So i don't know what people expect when they say "questing is basic" or "questing is boring".

Quests in todays MMOs are very different from what I experienced early on. Ignoring pen and paper, MUDs and CRPGs, and just staying within MMOs, most quest now ARE boring. 

Ultima Online - Until Age of Shadows, the game had no quests other than live events and player-created quests. Yes, in the beginning they had bakers asking you to kill the local armorsmith and stuff, but neither players nor the devs considered those to be quests. Having actually worked on many of those live events either in planning or playing characters, this is probably an area where I set myself up with an unrealistic expectation of what quests can or should be in an MMO. 

Asheron's Call - Most quests have traps, pitfalls and other aspects to the adventure. The type of content in many of AC's quests is the type of content often relegated to raid dungeons in today's MMO. Another point worth noting is that gathering viscera for NPC wasn't considered questing. Devs, fansites, and players all viewed them as separate collector and crafter NPCs. Even "Kill x MOBs" was never seen as a quest and was considered Kill Tasks. Maggie The Jack Cat's site was also a good example of the separation of these things, but unfortunately that is no longer around. 


So, when someone says "quest", even leaving my experiences in RPGs prior to MMOs out of the equation, I'm still hoping for (done with expecting) some sort of adventure and not just fedexing, kill quotas, or item gathering. 

All of those activities are not being called quests, so what exactly are you looking for? Please write them in details. "some sort of adventure" just doesn't cut it or explain anything since killing 10 goblin can also be considered a great adventure.

jesteralways

TheHiveLeader said:

Jonnyp2 said:

jesteralways said:

"Questing is basic" i see and hear that a lot. What is questing in RPG really? RPG questing from the beginning, from the pen and paper days, have always been about killing mob set by dungeon master or the system, on occasion we had to escort someone or disarm traps. If we look back at core RPG that is what it was and that is how visual rpg do it too. So i don't know what people expect when they say "questing is basic" or "questing is boring".

I don't think they know what they want either. It's just bitching for the sake of bitching, something I've some to expect from the mmo community.

Basic just means it's what we have all come to expect. Nothing new or all that different. I didn't say boring, did I?

No you did not say boring but many people says so every time a new rpg or mmorpg comes out : "questing is just basic run the mill we see in every other mmorpg or rpg" or "questing is so boring, been there done that" etc. So my question to you(and those who use the lines i mentioned above) hivey what can developers do to make "questing" more "new" for you? Please explain in details.

TheHiveLeader

jesteralways said:

No you did not say boring but many people says so every time a new rpg or mmorpg comes out : "questing is just basic run the mill we see in every other mmorpg or rpg" or "questing is so boring, been there done that" etc. So my question to you(and those who use the lines i mentioned above) hivey what can developers do to make "questing" more "new" for you? Please explain in details.

As others have mentioned, make the whole thing more of an adventure. Questing in RPGs has always involved a lot of killing, but the difference between the new and the old is the reasoning. In today's MMOs, kill quests are there basically so you can level up. That's about it.

In the olden days, kill quests were just part of an adventure. Wiping out the forces in a dungeon to get to a boss... Trying to save a village, etc. It's all just small tasks now specifically designed to get the player to endgame, taking you from one new are to the next so you get a SENSE of accomplishment and difference when there actually is little to none. There's no adventure.

Or they could just do something OTHER than kill or fetch quests. Look at The Secret World, with investigation and sabotage missions. Kill and fetch quests are basically a cop-out. ("Those players gotta level up somehow... throw in a bunch of kill quests!") It shows little thought or effort.

jesteralways

TheHiveLeader said:

jesteralways said:

No you did not say boring but many people says so every time a new rpg or mmorpg comes out : "questing is just basic run the mill we see in every other mmorpg or rpg" or "questing is so boring, been there done that" etc. So my question to you(and those who use the lines i mentioned above) hivey what can developers do to make "questing" more "new" for you? Please explain in details.

As others have mentioned, make the whole thing more of an adventure. Questing in RPGs has always involved a lot of killing, but the difference between the new and the old is the reasoning. In today's MMOs, kill quests are there basically so you can level up. That's about it.

In the olden days, kill quests were just part of an adventure. Wiping out the forces in a dungeon to get to a boss... Trying to save a village, etc. It's all just small tasks now specifically designed to get the player to endgame, taking you from one new are to the next so you get a SENSE of accomplishment and difference when there actually is little to none. There's no adventure.

Or they could just do something OTHER than kill or fetch quests. Look at The Secret World, with investigation and sabotage missions. Kill and fetch quests are basically a cop-out. ("Those players gotta level up somehow... throw in a bunch of kill quests!") It shows little thought or effort.

Ahh and we are back to TSW, the game nobody(ok nobody is a stretch but population of the game is not really really good) plays because of..."something really game breaking or horrible or something something...", what TSW shows that even if a game provides something really unique players will try to find some other "game breaking" fault to diss the game and each one will have their own "game breaking" and "very valid" reason why they don't play or hate the game. TSW style quests are available in mmorpg but not in that scale, so let's ask this, if TSW style quests are done by every other mmorpg or rpg, what will players ask next?

Albatroes

Excellent video as always

beloc

Thank you HiveLeader.. As always a very entertaining video. And in regards to questing, its unfortunate that we cant have Witcher 3 style quests in an MMO. I think TSW is the closest thing we have to it. So, as Hive said, its "basic" questing. I for one am still looking forward to BDO.

Newnan

Just to throw in my 2 cents.

BDO is a great looking game, and has great character creation and customization, The whole questing in this game only revolves around the black spirit quest that you get from leveling up. After level 16 you start to just find grind spots to progress your xp bar since quests don't reward you with xp but constitution point xp (aka sandbox points, used for buying personal buildings renting items blah blah blah...). So after maybe 15- 20 hours of grinding different spots in the world you hit 50.

Great now all that's left is GVG and grinding mobs to gain xp to after the soft cap and for money to enchant your weapon which is RNG as ****. (woohoo +15 reburto!) The end game consists of PKing over grind spots, Fishing, Running Afk on horses on auto pathing to Powerlevel horse breeding (t6-t8 horses cost about the same as +15-17 weapons) Oh and don't forget to grind the 6 daily quests.

Last tip/advice the two strongest classes in pvp will always be ranger/warrior.

I played both JP and KR BDO for about 4 months this year. Id give BDO about a 6/10 overall score.

I'll be digging into BnS personally for the endgame pvp (yes I have played both already)

nycplayboy78

Aori said:

jesteralways said:

"Questing is basic" i see and hear that a lot. What is questing in RPG really? RPG questing from the beginning, from the pen and paper days, have always been about killing mob set by dungeon master or the system, on occasion we had to escort someone or disarm traps. If we look back at core RPG that is what it was and that is how visual rpg do it too. So i don't know what people expect when they say "questing is basic" or "questing is boring".

Because questing has gone from an adventure to an errand.

^^ THIS ^^

Sovrath

Aori said:

jesteralways said:

"Questing is basic" i see and hear that a lot. What is questing in RPG really? RPG questing from the beginning, from the pen and paper days, have always been about killing mob set by dungeon master or the system, on occasion we had to escort someone or disarm traps. If we look back at core RPG that is what it was and that is how visual rpg do it too. So i don't know what people expect when they say "questing is basic" or "questing is boring".

Because questing has gone from an adventure to an errand.

It's like you say what's in my secret soul ...

Tokken

I like basic questing! lol

jesteralways

Sovrath said:

Aori said:

jesteralways said:

"Questing is basic" i see and hear that a lot. What is questing in RPG really? RPG questing from the beginning, from the pen and paper days, have always been about killing mob set by dungeon master or the system, on occasion we had to escort someone or disarm traps. If we look back at core RPG that is what it was and that is how visual rpg do it too. So i don't know what people expect when they say "questing is basic" or "questing is boring".

Because questing has gone from an adventure to an errand.

It's like you say what's in my secret soul ...

And what is adventure really? What is it? A guy goes on a quest to kill a dragon, that is his adventure. A boy goes on a quest to kill the goblins who killed his father, that is his adventure. We are doing these for several decades in RPG, so again i will ask : WHAT THE FUCKING SHIT YOU GUYS WANT WHEN YOU SAY QUESTING IS BORING AND IT STOPPED BEING AN ADVENTURE?

TheHiveLeader

jesteralways said:

Sovrath said:

Aori said:

jesteralways said:

"Questing is basic" i see and hear that a lot. What is questing in RPG really? RPG questing from the beginning, from the pen and paper days, have always been about killing mob set by dungeon master or the system, on occasion we had to escort someone or disarm traps. If we look back at core RPG that is what it was and that is how visual rpg do it too. So i don't know what people expect when they say "questing is basic" or "questing is boring".

Because questing has gone from an adventure to an errand.

It's like you say what's in my secret soul ...

And what is adventure really? What is it? A guy goes on a quest to kill a dragon, that is his adventure. A boy goes on a quest to kill the goblins who killed his father, that is his adventure. We are doing these for several decades in RPG, so again i will ask : WHAT THE FUCKING SHIT YOU GUYS WANT WHEN YOU SAY QUESTING IS BORING AND IT STOPPED BEING AN ADVENTURE?

It's almost as if people define adventure differently... Who would've guessed?? Chill out man. I do not define picking up 10 kill quests, doing them and then moving on to a new area where I pick up 10 more kill queats as adventure. If you do, that's fantastic. I never said that was bad. I said it was basic... Because we've been doing it in MMOs for over a decade. And I don't mind it. I can even enjoy it in some MMOs, like I said that I did in Black Desert. What do I define as adventure? Go play Baldurs Gate. Each quest could literally take hours and its actually an accomplishment in itself just REACHING the damned quest area because you have to travel so far and fight to get there. It's a journey and shows far more thought and effort on the developers part than "Hey, go 10 feet to the right and kill 10 wovles and then come back." If you cannot see there's a difference there, that's fine. We have differing opinions. And if you enjoy basic questing, we aren't judging you, because I enjoy it to. I'm just ready for something else. And so are many others.

Scalpless

I think developers should start using GW2's event model instead of the typical quest grind as their go-to when they can't think of anything better. GW2's events aren't all they could be, but they feel like they're a part of the world, allow you to cooperate with others on the fly and show you what you've accomplished. In the typical questing model, the orcs are still there after you've "exterminated" them and that's no fun.

Po_gg

jesteralways said:

Sovrath said:

Aori said:

jesteralways said:

"Questing is basic" i see and hear that a lot. What is questing in RPG really? RPG questing from the beginning, from the pen and paper days, have always been about killing mob set by dungeon master or the system, on occasion we had to escort someone or disarm traps. If we look back at core RPG that is what it was and that is how visual rpg do it too. So i don't know what people expect when they say "questing is basic" or "questing is boring".

Because questing has gone from an adventure to an errand.

It's like you say what's in my secret soul ...

And what is adventure really? What is it? A guy goes on a quest to kill a dragon, that is his adventure. A boy goes on a quest to kill the goblins who killed his father, that is his adventure. We are doing these for several decades in RPG, so again i will ask : WHAT THE FUCKING SHIT YOU GUYS WANT WHEN YOU SAY QUESTING IS BORING AND IT STOPPED BEING AN ADVENTURE?

Finding the CapsLock, that's an adventure   (sorry, had to... )

I think there's an error right at the start - of course only imo, seems I repeat this like a broken record when it's about combat... You say "...from the beginning, from the pen and paper days, have always been about killing mob set by dungeon master or the system...", well, seems you had a very lame GM. We had a saying, if you have 1 (horribile dictu more than 1) combat per session, just simply kick out the sorry-a.s GM and find a better one. Rpg is not about combat, on the contrary, combat is the only part of the game where roleplaying is "on hold" and it's suddenly all about numbers and charts and dice rolls. A good GM only use combat occasionally, to shake things up a bit or to insert a new line into the storyline and giving a couple more "branches".

Examples are not right either, "quest to kill a dragon" is not an adventure, just a lame kill quest. Setting up a journey for retaking your rightful kingdom, that's an adventure - which may bump you into a dragon somewhere along the road, but a good GM would also add some options besides the mere "dps check" and tank'n'spank. (just look at Farmer Giles )


I agree with HL, TSW has a cool questing mechanic with its original "hub-less" design and story-focus. That part is maybe the closest to its adventure game roots, other elements of the game are more mmo-ish.

MrMelGibson

Rhoklaw said:

The more I think about it, I probably did less "questing" in EverQuest than I did in a majority of other MMO's. In fact, I pretty much just wandered around, killing random mobs and adventuring into open ended dungeons to kill the bosses. You would think in a game called EverQuest that I would have done nothing but quest, when in fact, I did very little. I think that is also what helped EverQuest stand out back than. You spent more time EXPLORING in no particular direction. You went where YOU felt like going.

Stand out back then? Lol, there was what like one or maybe two other mmos? I'm not trying to argue. You saying that just tickled me and made me giggle a bit ;-)