SL Patent System

brick

Anybody else have their designs knocked off?  Should Linden Labs implement an in world patent system?  Relying on the DMCA makes it financially impossible for a developer to protect their work.

LiteLucidity

     Philip Rosedale, in an interview recently on CNN claimed that the copyright security on Second Life exceeds that of real life. He also boasted about how players can make lots of money by being "Virtual entrepenuers" in second life. (it has happened and these few examples seem to justify Phil's case... but) While some have made some good real life money (I was on my way personally - see posts in general discussion) the ones at the top find themsleves in the cross-hares of Mr. Rosedale himself. Get too wealthy and you get knocked off, ripped off or worse.

     The concept is fabulous, the Second Life world offers a host of features that the competitors can't even touch. Sadly the money isnt where Phil's mouth is. Copyright infringement issues are just the tip of the iceberg. Here that?... it's the fog horn of the titanic, brace yourselves for a catstrophic collision. Misrepresentations on national TV are rarely overlooked by a media eager for scandal. This one is all about saying on thing and doing quite another. You will find this wreck at the bottom come next year unless the management and philosophy get a much needed overhaul.

Joel1120

I do agree Second Life needs a patent system. I see people getting ripped off all the time. I will not design until they either do an approval process or the patent system. I think the There approval process is a good idea. It keeps the freaky stuff out and protects designers work.

This is a big issue in all Virtual Worlds, not only Second Life. When Active Worlds was big it happened all the time too. Of cource with any rip off, its crappy. People are starting to try and rip off Jinx_TV and Majandi in There and quite frankly, it is distastful.

Edit: Fixed A Name

LiteLucidity

     The problem wit Second Life is that they claim to have the best copyright system on the planet (better then real life) and aside from a few high profile examples it's largely a farse.

Joel1120

Well from my expeience There is safe from alot of stuff like this. I believe this to be because of the submission and approval system. They keep a growing record of all items submited. I guess they compare things to make sure rip offs can't happen.

There have been very few times textures got ripped off. But other then that, no. I think Linden Labs should do the same. They could keep a database of textures and items submited to their offices. They first approve it or not and then compare it to the database for a match.

That simple. If this stuff happens all the time then they are lying about their copyright system. If this stuff can happen then Second Life members don't own their own designs. A submission system seems like its the only choice, to me any way.

Gwyneth

Linden Lab is too tiny for that role (they have admitted it publicly, in meetings with users) and they really don't want to do that (except in the Teen Grid).

With over 6 million unique items being offered for sale, how much time do you think they need to approve them all...?

It's a nightmare. Yes, it also means you can get "ripped off", although, more likely, people copy ideas, not objects/textures (these are the exceptions, where some bugs get exploited - but the number of people who manage to do that is really tiny. On the other hand, copying ideas is quite easy).

Valbrandr

Ideas get knocked off all of the time in the real world as well. Cheap, generic substitutes find there way into dollar stores, etc. However, a T-shirt with a certain design on it cannot really be copied in real life... I'm curious as to whether or not Linden Labs would take any sort of action against someone in SecondLife for a blatant copy of... say... a T-shirt design.

Gwyneth

No.

Actually, Linden Lab can only intervene in two cases:

1) Trademark infringement. This means that if someone uses a trademarked design (say, a logo) and it's reported, under the terms of the DMCA, the content has to be removed immediately, either voluntarily or not.

2) Copyright infringement (ie. a design that is copyrighted, like a picture or a T-shirt design). This is a much more delicate case. Technically, only the copyright owner (or their legal representative) can file a request for removal of copyrighted material. This means if someone rips off a T-shirt design by, say, Nike, and Nike never notices it — as long as you don't use their logo!! — you can't complain: only Nike has the right to complain.

This is all due to very complex legal issues related to copyrights. This also means that if someone creates a T-shirt in Second Life, and someone else copies that design, there is nothing you can do. Copyrights only protect the physical (or virtual!) embodiment of an idea, not the idea itself. You can't get a copyright on "a red T-shirt with a white stripe". Anyone can create that precise design and sell it as their own — that's perfectly legal.

What you cannot do is get a T-shirt from someone, do several copies of it (because you illegally got the original texture, exploited a bug, or somehow conned the original creator into giving you a fully copyable version), and sell it. This is illegal under copyright law, and all the owner has to do is to file a complain with Linden Lab, and, once more, they'll remove that content.

Bear in mind that Linden Lab is neither police, nor a court of law. They don't deal with legal issues, except under their Terms of Services. In a sense, they act precisely like a telecommunication carrier — they are a service provider, hosting 3D content on servers, and providing a 3D viewer to access that content. If someone uses an ISP to illegally copy MP3 or DVDs, the ISP is not liable to any kind of legal action — it's up to the company that owns the copyright to the music or video to file a forma complaint. In that case, the ISP will assist the authorities in tracking the culprits down, and remove all illegal copies they can find (say, on a Web or FTP server). But they're not "authorities" in that regard. They're only requested to assist the police and the courts by all possible means if there is a request/complaint.

Linden Lab is under that same status. The only action they can take is under the provision of the DMCA. They can't "play police", even if they wished.

linadragon

ok folks lets look at the big picture if we patent stuff in Second Life what gets developed stuff that is claimed to be knocked off is often improved frankly i find it greedy to expect it to be patentedfor you just because someone may make improvements or design a similar product. Thats what SL really is about is development msot things said like patenting would slow this down quite a bit. Sure you may not like it but the fact remains thats how things work. If you want the world to continue to evolve you dont put brakes on it . It'd cause many many problems as you are well aware of if you know how patents work. You already retain IP rights to what you make someone rips it off deal with it dont impeed growth of items for your own gain to be the only person with it!

Gwyneth

Difficult choices, linadragon

One proeminent member of Second Life tends to see things like this: some creators only apply their work to do a limited number of items. Then they expect these to sell "forever" and reap the rewards. They cross their arms, sit back, and watch their money account increase These are the types that get furious when a competitor, inspired by their ideas, do something much better — so they will yell that people are "ripping them off".

Platforms that screen content before it's uploaded tend to encourage this type of attitude (There, for instance, would probably never allow two different people to upload similar designs... they would protect the first one uploading their content).

In real life, however, things are generally not like that. A creative designer will be releasing new things all the time. They understand that products have a short span of originality while they sell well; but soon, everyone will be doing the same. To stay afloat on the wave of creativity, you need to release new products to stay competitive, or look at what your competition is doing, and add new features.

The ones that are doing this all the time hardly complain. They eventually laugh when they see someone "ripping off" one of their old products — since they will already be launching the new ones. If your set into becoming a creative designer — act like one! Don't hang on to the past.

Some of the creators that have fully embraced this concept even go a further step. They release something new, then, when they see what the competition is doing, offer their "old" products for free, and start to put out the new ones. That strategy is usually successful; "competitors" won't be able to make any money from competing products by simply copying them (since people will rather prefer to have an older, "original" version for free, instead of buying a similar item from the competition)... and ensure that they will still be viewed as the leading creative designers in SL. People will pay well for novelties — while they are novelties.

But competition is healthy. There have been some examples on many creative designers coming with a good idea, but badly implemented, and soon their competition would improve on that, and completely dwarf the original creator's sales. That's exactly what happens in real life; Henry Ford might have created the whole concept of an automated car factory, but General Motors (the company owning the Ford brand) is not the largest car manufacturer in the world (although still one of the largest). Others have copied Ford's ideas and improved upon them; obviously, General Motors has not stayed quiet, but improved their own concept as well.

What sometimes people mix up with is the concept of the "creative designer" and "someone that has a bright idea once". Bright ideas can come to any of us, at any time, and if you can exploit them successfully, you'll have an edge. But not everyone that has "bright ideas" is, in fact, a "creative designer" — someone who is expected to be able to have good ideas all the time, place their products on the market, and come up with the next good idea immediately. They will never stop for a breather — a truly creative designer will have "bright ideas" all the time and will be able to make a comfortable living out of them.

Apparently most people don't understand this concept. Mind you, many don't understand it in real life as well — or else, Microsoft would not need to be always in court suing others left and right. They would concentrate instead of releasing "bright new ideas" all the time, and scorn upon "competing products" (well, they also do that to an extent...).

Xaelon

I dont really design that much....or at all...lol  I'm a hardcore gunner and hot-rod/motrcycle driver/engineer (in SL) I'l also and entrepreneur I sell everything I own and get pretty wealth to so if you want anything IM me in SL at Xaelon Olejniczak and say "Hey Xae" so I know what you want. Thx!

Xantonia

Originally posted by Gwyneth


Difficult choices, linadragon
One proeminent member of Second Life tends to see things like this: some creators only apply their work to do a limited number of items. Then they expect these to sell "forever" and reap the rewards. They cross their arms, sit back, and watch their money account increase These are the types that get furious when a competitor, inspired by their ideas, do something much better — so they will yell that people are "ripping them off".
Platforms that screen content before it's uploaded tend to encourage this type of attitude (There, for instance, would probably never allow two different people to upload similar designs... they would protect the first one uploading their content).
In real life, however, things are generally not like that. A creative designer will be releasing new things all the time. They understand that products have a short span of originality while they sell well; but soon, everyone will be doing the same. To stay afloat on the wave of creativity, you need to release new products to stay competitive, or look at what your competition is doing, and add new features.
The ones that are doing this all the time hardly complain. They eventually laugh when they see someone "ripping off" one of their old products — since they will already be launching the new ones. If your set into becoming a creative designer — act like one! Don't hang on to the past.
Some of the creators that have fully embraced this concept even go a further step. They release something new, then, when they see what the competition is doing, offer their "old" products for free, and start to put out the new ones. That strategy is usually successful; "competitors" won't be able to make any money from competing products by simply copying them (since people will rather prefer to have an older, "original" version for free, instead of buying a similar item from the competition)... and ensure that they will still be viewed as the leading creative designers in SL. People will pay well for novelties — while they are novelties.
But competition is healthy. There have been some examples on many creative designers coming with a good idea, but badly implemented, and soon their competition would improve on that, and completely dwarf the original creator's sales. That's exactly what happens in real life; Henry Ford might have created the whole concept of an automated car factory, but General Motors (the company owning the Ford brand) is not the largest car manufacturer in the world (although still one of the largest). Others have copied Ford's ideas and improved upon them; obviously, General Motors has not stayed quiet, but improved their own concept as well.
What sometimes people mix up with is the concept of the "creative designer" and "someone that has a bright idea once". Bright ideas can come to any of us, at any time, and if you can exploit them successfully, you'll have an edge. But not everyone that has "bright ideas" is, in fact, a "creative designer" — someone who is expected to be able to have good ideas all the time, place their products on the market, and come up with the next good idea immediately. They will never stop for a breather — a truly creative designer will have "bright ideas" all the time and will be able to make a comfortable living out of them.
Apparently most people don't understand this concept. Mind you, many don't understand it in real life as well — or else, Microsoft would not need to be always in court suing others left and right. They would concentrate instead of releasing "bright new ideas" all the time, and scorn upon "competing products" (well, they also do that to an extent...).

A very balanced, common sense look at things.   The difficulty with games linked to real life and real money is the motivation of people playing.  It is very different for a lot of them.

 

jonaylward

Originally posted by Gwyneth


Henry Ford might have created the whole concept of an automated car factory, but General Motors (the company owning the Ford brand) is not the largest car manufacturer in the world (although still one of the largest). Others have copied Ford's ideas and improved upon them; obviously, General Motors has not stayed quiet, but improved their own concept as well.

Small point of fact.



Ford Motor Company owns the Ford brand...

...as well as Lincoln, Mercury, Mazda, Volvo, Jaguar, and Land Rover these days.



General Motors (as a multi-brand corporation) formed in 1908 when Buick and Oldsmobile joined forces.

Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick, Pontiac, GMC, Saturn, Hummer, Saab, Holden, Opel, and Vauxhall.



However, the axiom "Evolve or Die" is very true in all markets where there are no barriers to competition.

erinefent

Their have elsedesigns knocked off.

linadragon

Well if we get down to it its almost impossible for them to operate like there. Keep in mind in there you need to upload things and then pay a fee based on what your selling and how much etc... its an absurd system that There uses and it doesnt allow real time building or any real creativity. Alot of stuff in There is also ripped off of diff models etc due to how their system is built... SL's protection system does exceed that of real life because if we get down to it the worst someone can do is rebuild a build they'd still need to sort out scripting. Yes textures can be ripped but LL cant really block that. In relative terms if a build is left mod its can be copied but in terms it still takes some amount of skill.

 

I dont find it that bad if people actually wish to improve on a design or what have you. It'd be hard to do a patent system since if you really look at existing patent systems they are beyond messed up to begin with...