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The Lack of Delivered Content

laxielaxie Member RarePosts: 1,065
First of all, let me say this is not a bashing on SC thread. There is a lot we don't know, lot we can't answer. At the same time, I am genuinely interested what you make of this.

About 1.5 years ago, Arena Commander was released. I think quite a bit of content was delivered then. We could finally fly around, fight AI, fight each other. You could follow the development, clearly see they have been putting a lot of work into making this happen. Since then, little significant content has been added into the playable game though. What's more, the deadlines they have been proposing have been missed completely.

I know there supposedly is a lot of content coming soon. Perhaps that is the case (I don't know). What I do know is that many of the systems that were claimed to be "1-2 months away" are now still being concepted out (and still 1-2 months away). I am talking about data persistence and shopping (which was said to be on the next months schedule in a recent dev blog), even though this was "1 month away" in Spring. Mutli-crew stations, which were recently said to be in the concept stage, though they were 1-2 months away for release in the Summer.

I am not saying it is a scam. I like the vision and think Arena Commander is nice. Clearly they have a lot of employees working on something.
But what is incomprehensible to me, is the lack of delivered stuff (and the greatly misestimated dates). How can you say planet shopping is coming in 1 month? To make that statement, you need to be fairly confident. You know you have X amount of relevant work done, X people assigned to the task - you deduce that with it being in the works and X amount of progress, it is 1 month away.
Then fast forward a year later, it is now coming in 1-2 months?



I just can't understand this. I was recently part of a team planning an event for 2000 guests. We said each visitor would get a 60 page magazine. We had about 6 months to do this task. So we broke down the plan, had each page laid out. When it was nearly done, we gave the company an estimate ("Ok, we have most pages done. We spoke to the printer, we can give you a draft copy in 2 weeks".)

Now imagine they ask me 3 months later (this is 6x the time I said I needed). I tell them it is coming in 1-2 weeks. So they ask me another 3 months later (6x the time from the second estimate), I tell them the pages are in concept stage and it is coming in 4 weeks. This scenario just doesn't make sense to me.

Was I not saying the truth when I gave them the original estimate? Perhaps I didn't have a magazine at all and was hoping I could wing it in 2 weeks. Or did I make several magazines that I trashed each time, thinking I could do better? More importantly, what have I been working on the past 6 months? I was clearly assigned to do the magazine, saying I am working on it the whole time (that it is 1-2 weeks away). Yet, there is no magazine and I am saying it is now 4 weeks away, in the concept stage. Was I working on something else than the magazine?



Video game development is a fluid, ever changing process. They are perhaps working on the foundations to make other stuff happen. I get that.
But 3 years into the development, you say feature A is coming in 1 month, you are working on it. 1 year later, said feature A is coming in 2 months.

What is your take on this?
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Comments

  • ArChWindArChWind Member UncommonPosts: 1,323

    so what was your point?

    One side will see it as an attack the other will call it gospel and here we go again.

  • udonudon Member UncommonPosts: 1,803
    edited November 2015
    After reading this perspective from a developer on the outside I tend to believe that the last year plus has been SC focused on some big internal systems changes that they didn't originally anticipate.  

    http://massivelyop.com/2015/10/21/ascents-lead-dev-offers-insight-on-the-star-citizen-controversy/

    There are two ways to look at this.

    1.  The hard stuff is behind this project and now they can reap the rewards of all that work and start pushing new systems out quickly.

    2.  This unplanned systems changes (some would call it mismanagement) has drained the project of time and money and made delivery of the game as promised impossible.

    I really don't know which of those is the truth but my instincts is it's a little of both.  
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,439
    edited November 2015
    Your example of a magazine is flawed, because you won't need to rewrite your articles based on them failing to interact with other articles. In a computer game every part interacts with every other part, and those interactions create so much trouble that it often takes more time to fix everything than it took to create those things in the first place.

    That makes creating a computer game a lot more unpredictable. Especially when we're talking about a project like Star Citizen where devs are trying to implement some features that haven't really been done before. They need to invent a way to do something, then redo it 3 times because the first attempts weren't good enough.

    That doesn't excuse them failing so badly with their delivery estimates, though. That's just bad management and false promises.
     
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,233
    udon said:
    After reading this perspective from a developer on the outside I tend to believe that the last year plus has been SC focused on some big internal systems changes that they didn't originally anticipate.  

    http://massivelyop.com/2015/10/21/ascents-lead-dev-offers-insight-on-the-star-citizen-controversy/

    There are two ways to look at this.

    1.  The hard stuff is behind this project and now they can reap the rewards of all that work and start pushing new systems out quickly.

    2.  This unplanned systems changes (some would call it mismanagement) has drained the project of time and money and made delivery of the game as promised impossible.

    I really don't know which of those is the truth but my instincts is it's a little of both.  
    THIS (and personally i lean to option  (1) ...)

    plus THIS  >>>Or did I make several magazines that I trashed each time, thinking I could do better?>>>

    I suspect that Chris Roberts was in certain areas heavily focussed on details and then lacked the time for the bigger picture .... until his brother set him straight again and gave the overall project once again more of an organised structure. While Chris may have favored the distributed "everyone is doing everything 24 h a day handing over from one studio to the other" Erin seems to have gotten his will of reorganizing all the studios along certain areas of expertise (CryEngine in Frankfurt, Audio in UK etc. ... moving positions around between studios to get a certain critical mass for work of better quality).

    Did this take extra unplanned time ? You bet.

    Will the project still be within the 5 year timeframe that I and many others expected since 2012 ... i think yes.


    Have fun
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,382
    I think they found out it can't be delivered quite so modularly, so they are holding off on delivering more of it until it can be released more fully.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

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  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member RarePosts: 2,847

    Still makes me wonder how a veteran of decades of game design can make the same mistakes, again and again.  It is simple.  Don't give out detailed release dates.  Again and again.   Well, unless it is driving something else (like ship sales?).  


    Roberts is a mediocre project manager and game designer imo.   I'd bet a ton of money was wasted due to poor planning, and a lot was spent on high ticket items that probably could have been done cheaper and more efficiently.  Roberts reputation (again, imo) is seriously inflated.  Except in the PR and marketing departments.  There he is great.   I'd agree that bringing in Erin is a smart move, as he's produced games in the last 20 years, and can probably tone down some of Chris's extravagances.


    I wouldn't vote for an SC MMO by 2017, at least not one in reasonably working condition.   The big test there will be whether they can deliver the standalone game, in a competent fashion, by something like this time next year.  That will tell a lot.    I'd wait til then before seriously investing.


    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,191
    Well ever heard of Blizzardtime  it is a bit like Valvetime but with more wild promises. =)

    Tawess gaming

    Tawess soapbox

    This have been a good conversation

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768

    Still makes me wonder how a veteran of decades of game design can make the same mistakes, again and again.  It is simple.  Don't give out detailed release dates.  Again and again.   Well, unless it is driving something else (like ship sales?).  


    Roberts is a mediocre project manager and game designer imo.   I'd bet a ton of money was wasted due to poor planning, and a lot was spent on high ticket items that probably could have been done cheaper and more efficiently.  Roberts reputation (again, imo) is seriously inflated.  Except in the PR and marketing departments.  There he is great.   I'd agree that bringing in Erin is a smart move, as he's produced games in the last 20 years, and can probably tone down some of Chris's extravagances.


    I wouldn't vote for an SC MMO by 2017, at least not one in reasonably working condition.   The big test there will be whether they can deliver the standalone game, in a competent fashion, by something like this time next year.  That will tell a lot.    I'd wait til then before seriously investing.



    People generally have the same good/bad ideas over and over again.
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  • cormachcormach Member UncommonPosts: 89
    edited November 2015
    They could just use the same answer about when it will be done that Derek Smart uses about his current game: It'll be out when it's finished.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,891
    Well first of all,i saw a few people claiming mismanagement a few months ago and of course fanbois jumped all over them.Personally i didn't consider that idea as plausible but now after seeing and finding out more and more,i most certainly think something has gone wrong with this game development and Chris is the guy in charge.

    If you look at even the money scam side of things,even the ships are sometimes not delivered as working.
    Honestly how could you sell it like that,that wouldn't fly anywhere in the real world.

    I think ignoring another large summary or topic discussion,i will just have to say that i firmly believe that Chris does not know anything about making a MMO,he just knows his old shallow simple type Xwing game design and nothing more.He is trying to WIng it as he goes and why he constantly runs into problems.

    On that same note,that is why he went the route of hoping to get gamer's to give him the money,he has no deadlines or people to answer to.If a professional publisher or knowledgeable investor was involved he would come out looking real bad,but he has none of that to answer to or explain things to.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    I'm sure there's a rich blend of reasons why SC is not delivering on schedule. The bigger a team (and a project) gets, the more difficult it becomes to co-ordinate all the moving parts. Game development is not an exact science, most games are custom-made prototypes.

    I'm quite certain that SC hit some major roadblocks in trying to implement/integrate various parts of the game design. Most likely they tried to make the engine do things it was not designed to do, and then had to customise or redesign features or even abandon certain ideas/elements and come up with entirely new ones.

    But it may not be in a project's best interest to publicly announce every setback and challenge faced by the team. Today's Twitter-driven reality can easily blow such honesty way out of proportion, specially on a headline project like SC.

    Ironically, gamers used-to vilify publishers for forcing game development projects to stick to a schedule. Now they cry because nobody can force the self-funded KS projects to "deliver on time". Damned if you do, damned if you don't...
  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member RarePosts: 2,847

    Well, if that's the case, Roberts shouldn't be spouting out wildly inaccurate release dates.  Or provide countless detailed videos about the game's production.  The guy is supposed to be this brilliant veteran designer, yet he doesn't get this?  Unless, of course, the public pronouncements help boost sales....


    Roberts has had games that were delayed by multiple years.  Games that appeared on 'Vaporware of the Year' lists.  Some, multiple times.   And that was when he had the support of major game publishers.  Digital Anvil, his personal company, never released a game he'd produced during the four years of his tenure.



    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • YanocchiYanocchi Member UncommonPosts: 670
    Off-topic, to ease the pain of waiting for more content for Star Citizen, I recommend watching a new sci-fi show called Dark Matter. Perhaps not spectacular, it's the only space sci-fi TV series that really gets close to the feel of Star Citizen in my opinion. In a way it could be a story about a crew of a small capital ship in a persistent universe of Star Citizen. B)
    Baldur's Gate Online - Video Trailer
    * more info, screenshots and videos here

  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,413
    Yanocchi said:
    Off-topic, to ease the pain of waiting for more content for Star Citizen, I recommend watching a new sci-fi show called Dark Matter. Perhaps not spectacular, it's the only space sci-fi TV series that really gets close to the feel of Star Citizen in my opinion. In a way it could be a story about a crew of a small capital ship in a persistent universe of Star Citizen. B)
    Not spectacular.... NOT SPECTACULAR??!!!!  I should have you drawn and quartered.

    Seriously though, its pretty good.  Trying a little too hard to be Firefly at times, but i enjoyed it a lot.

    Another one is good that just came out this season is called Killjoys.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • YanocchiYanocchi Member UncommonPosts: 670
    Hrimnir said:
    Yanocchi said:
    Off-topic, to ease the pain of waiting for more content for Star Citizen, I recommend watching a new sci-fi show called Dark Matter. Perhaps not spectacular, it's the only space sci-fi TV series that really gets close to the feel of Star Citizen in my opinion. In a way it could be a story about a crew of a small capital ship in a persistent universe of Star Citizen. B)
    Not spectacular.... NOT SPECTACULAR??!!!!  I should have you drawn and quartered.

    Seriously though, its pretty good.  Trying a little too hard to be Firefly at times, but i enjoyed it a lot.

    Another one is good that just came out this season is called Killjoys.

    Thanks, I've added Killjoys to my watch list. It sounds similar to Dark Matter based on the plot summary at IMDB.
    Baldur's Gate Online - Video Trailer
    * more info, screenshots and videos here

  • makasouleater69makasouleater69 Member UncommonPosts: 1,096
    edited November 2015
    He already spent the money and went to space, and is currently building his very own space station, to hide out from you guys.
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 3,252
    edited November 2015
    laxie said:
    First of all, let me say this is not a bashing on SC thread. There is a lot we don't know, lot we can't answer. At the same time, I am genuinely interested what you make of this.

    About 1.5 years ago, Arena Commander was released. I think quite a bit of content was delivered then. We could finally fly around, fight AI, fight each other. You could follow the development, clearly see they have been putting a lot of work into making this happen. Since then, little significant content has been added into the playable game though. What's more, the deadlines they have been proposing have been missed completely.

    I know there supposedly is a lot of content coming soon. Perhaps that is the case (I don't know). What I do know is that many of the systems that were claimed to be "1-2 months away" are now still being concepted out (and still 1-2 months away). I am talking about data persistence and shopping (which was said to be on the next months schedule in a recent dev blog), even though this was "1 month away" in Spring. Mutli-crew stations, which were recently said to be in the concept stage, though they were 1-2 months away for release in the Summer.

    I am not saying it is a scam. I like the vision and think Arena Commander is nice. Clearly they have a lot of employees working on something.
    But what is incomprehensible to me, is the lack of delivered stuff (and the greatly misestimated dates). How can you say planet shopping is coming in 1 month? To make that statement, you need to be fairly confident. You know you have X amount of relevant work done, X people assigned to the task - you deduce that with it being in the works and X amount of progress, it is 1 month away.
    Then fast forward a year later, it is now coming in 1-2 months?



    I just can't understand this. I was recently part of a team planning an event for 2000 guests. We said each visitor would get a 60 page magazine. We had about 6 months to do this task. So we broke down the plan, had each page laid out. When it was nearly done, we gave the company an estimate ("Ok, we have most pages done. We spoke to the printer, we can give you a draft copy in 2 weeks".)

    Now imagine they ask me 3 months later (this is 6x the time I said I needed). I tell them it is coming in 1-2 weeks. So they ask me another 3 months later (6x the time from the second estimate), I tell them the pages are in concept stage and it is coming in 4 weeks. This scenario just doesn't make sense to me.

    Was I not saying the truth when I gave them the original estimate? Perhaps I didn't have a magazine at all and was hoping I could wing it in 2 weeks. Or did I make several magazines that I trashed each time, thinking I could do better? More importantly, what have I been working on the past 6 months? I was clearly assigned to do the magazine, saying I am working on it the whole time (that it is 1-2 weeks away). Yet, there is no magazine and I am saying it is now 4 weeks away, in the concept stage. Was I working on something else than the magazine?



    Video game development is a fluid, ever changing process. They are perhaps working on the foundations to make other stuff happen. I get that.
    But 3 years into the development, you say feature A is coming in 1 month, you are working on it. 1 year later, said feature A is coming in 2 months.

    What is your take on this?
    Your premise is flawed. You are talking about content being delivered as if it was a released game that is live.

    It is not.

    The game is still under development and what we have access to now is something they gave us to play around with till the game is ready and also to help them test stuff out.

    What it comes down to is they are still in development and as such have no obligation to deliver us "content" until it goes live.


    Personally I am okay with waiting rather than have a half arsed game pushed on us because of some pencil pushers deadline and bottom line.  Many of us are tired of that kind of thing which was another thing which made SC KS successful.




    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • Arkade99Arkade99 Member RarePosts: 529
    edited November 2015
    Asm0deus said:
    Your premise is flawed. You are talking about content being delivered as if it was a released game that is live.

    It is not.

    The game is still under development and what we have access to now is something they gave us to play around with till the game is ready and also to help them test stuff out.

    What it comes down to is they are still in development and as such have no obligation to deliver us "content" until it goes live.


    Personally I am okay with waiting rather than have a half arsed game pushed on us because of some pencil pushers deadline and bottom line.  Many of us are tired of that kind of thing which was another thing which made SC KS successful.




    In their kickstarter, RSI said the game would include certain things. This is the basic list of things the game would include as detailed on their kickstarter campaign page:

    Real quick, Star Citizen is: 
    A rich universe focused on epic space adventure, trading and dogfighting in first person.
    Single Player – Offline or Online(Drop in / Drop out co-op play) 
    Persistent Universe (hosted by US) 
    Mod-able multiplayer (hosted by YOU) 
    No Subscriptions 
    No Pay to Win 

    The campaign also says that estimated delivery of the final product is November 2014. 

    It is now November 2015 and they have raised way more money than they ever thought they would. So why is the game a year late with no launch date in sight? 

    Chalking that up to "development" doesn't cut it. Their budget grew by leaps and bounds, yet they have proven incapable of making the game in anything close to the time frame they estimated. That's not to say that they won't eventually make the game and that it won't be great, but I don't see how you can give them a pass to this point.
  • olepiolepi Member RarePosts: 1,443
    Maybe they are falling prey to a common  problem:

    "We need a hammer."

    "Ok, we'll start working on a hammer factory right away ..."

    ------------
    2020: 43 years on the Net.


  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,439
    edited November 2015
    Asm0deus said:
    Your premise is flawed. You are talking about content being delivered as if it was a released game that is live.

    It is not.

    The game is still under development and what we have access to now is something they gave us to play around with till the game is ready and also to help them test stuff out.

    What it comes down to is they are still in development and as such have no obligation to deliver us "content" until it goes live.
    False. They promised alpha access in their Kickstarter so alpha access is what they have to deliver.
     
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Arkade99 said:
    Asm0deus said:
    Your premise is flawed. You are talking about content being delivered as if it was a released game that is live.

    It is not.

    The game is still under development and what we have access to now is something they gave us to play around with till the game is ready and also to help them test stuff out.

    What it comes down to is they are still in development and as such have no obligation to deliver us "content" until it goes live.


    Personally I am okay with waiting rather than have a half arsed game pushed on us because of some pencil pushers deadline and bottom line.  Many of us are tired of that kind of thing which was another thing which made SC KS successful.




    In their kickstarter, RSI said the game would include certain things. This is the basic list of things the game would include as detailed on their kickstarter campaign page:

    Real quick, Star Citizen is: 
    A rich universe focused on epic space adventure, trading and dogfighting in first person.
    Single Player – Offline or Online(Drop in / Drop out co-op play) 
    Persistent Universe (hosted by US) 
    Mod-able multiplayer (hosted by YOU) 
    No Subscriptions 
    No Pay to Win 

    The campaign also says that estimated delivery of the final product is November 2014. 

    It is now November 2015 and they have raised way more money than they ever thought they would. So why is the game a year late with no launch date in sight? 

    Chalking that up to "development" doesn't cut it. Their budget grew by leaps and bounds, yet they have proven incapable of making the game in anything close to the time frame they estimated. That's not to say that they won't eventually make the game and that it won't be great, but I don't see how you can give them a pass to this point.

    How many games deliver all features expected or stated? I know that Elite: Dangerous didn't deliver their Offline game. Even with published games, I know that NHL didn't deliver a franchise mode one year. Everyone is welcome to an opinion, obviously, but if you're setting a standard, then is this a standard that you uphold for all games you play? Or do you have a chip on your shoulder? 

    As far as delivery date is concerned. Again, games are delayed quite frequently. Also, the scope of the game changed during and after the crowd-funding. I didn't hear the yelling and screaming about the increased scope while these scope increases were happening. It was all about making the game into something that the community really wanted to see, not just a simplified space flight sim. That is, apparently, what the community wanted. Granted, I'm sure there are those who were more interested in having a game released on time, but the majority wanted a larger game and, with that, comes a longer schedule. In response to that increase in scope, they have began offering refunds to backers who aren't happy which is pretty nice, I think. 

    I really have a difficult time with armchair software developers with no idea what it takes to develop a game. Where a character might take a month to finish or an environment might take months to complete. Never mind that they're apparently trying to do something "impossible". I can appreciate your point about them missing their estimate, but I'd much rather see the game delivered with the features as it sits right now than a simplistic game devoid of any innovation. If you don't feel the same then I'd definitely request a refund. Otherwise, 2016 seems to be the year they're putting out there right now. 

    Crazkanuk

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    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
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  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Arkade99 said:
    Asm0deus said:
    Your premise is flawed. You are talking about content being delivered as if it was a released game that is live.

    It is not.

    The game is still under development and what we have access to now is something they gave us to play around with till the game is ready and also to help them test stuff out.

    What it comes down to is they are still in development and as such have no obligation to deliver us "content" until it goes live.


    Personally I am okay with waiting rather than have a half arsed game pushed on us because of some pencil pushers deadline and bottom line.  Many of us are tired of that kind of thing which was another thing which made SC KS successful.




    In their kickstarter, RSI said the game would include certain things. This is the basic list of things the game would include as detailed on their kickstarter campaign page:

    Real quick, Star Citizen is: 
    A rich universe focused on epic space adventure, trading and dogfighting in first person.
    Single Player – Offline or Online(Drop in / Drop out co-op play) 
    Persistent Universe (hosted by US) 
    Mod-able multiplayer (hosted by YOU) 
    No Subscriptions 
    No Pay to Win 

    The campaign also says that estimated delivery of the final product is November 2014. 

    It is now November 2015 and they have raised way more money than they ever thought they would. So why is the game a year late with no launch date in sight? 

    Chalking that up to "development" doesn't cut it. Their budget grew by leaps and bounds, yet they have proven incapable of making the game in anything close to the time frame they estimated. That's not to say that they won't eventually make the game and that it won't be great, but I don't see how you can give them a pass to this point.

    Technically there already is a subscription for this game, 10 and 20/month options and pay to win can be debated with the ship sales. Everything else is still being waited on.
  • bone15bone15 Member UncommonPosts: 52
    laxie said:
    First of all, let me say this is not a bashing on SC thread. There is a lot we don't know, lot we can't answer. At the same time, I am genuinely interested what you make of this.

    About 1.5 years ago, Arena Commander was released. I think quite a bit of content was delivered then. We could finally fly around, fight AI, fight each other. You could follow the development, clearly see they have been putting a lot of work into making this happen. Since then, little significant content has been added into the playable game though. What's more, the deadlines they have been proposing have been missed completely.

    I know there supposedly is a lot of content coming soon. Perhaps that is the case (I don't know). What I do know is that many of the systems that were claimed to be "1-2 months away" are now still being concepted out (and still 1-2 months away). I am talking about data persistence and shopping (which was said to be on the next months schedule in a recent dev blog), even though this was "1 month away" in Spring. Mutli-crew stations, which were recently said to be in the concept stage, though they were 1-2 months away for release in the Summer.

    I am not saying it is a scam. I like the vision and think Arena Commander is nice. Clearly they have a lot of employees working on something.
    But what is incomprehensible to me, is the lack of delivered stuff (and the greatly misestimated dates). How can you say planet shopping is coming in 1 month? To make that statement, you need to be fairly confident. You know you have X amount of relevant work done, X people assigned to the task - you deduce that with it being in the works and X amount of progress, it is 1 month away.
    Then fast forward a year later, it is now coming in 1-2 months?



    I just can't understand this. I was recently part of a team planning an event for 2000 guests. We said each visitor would get a 60 page magazine. We had about 6 months to do this task. So we broke down the plan, had each page laid out. When it was nearly done, we gave the company an estimate ("Ok, we have most pages done. We spoke to the printer, we can give you a draft copy in 2 weeks".)

    Now imagine they ask me 3 months later (this is 6x the time I said I needed). I tell them it is coming in 1-2 weeks. So they ask me another 3 months later (6x the time from the second estimate), I tell them the pages are in concept stage and it is coming in 4 weeks. This scenario just doesn't make sense to me.

    Was I not saying the truth when I gave them the original estimate? Perhaps I didn't have a magazine at all and was hoping I could wing it in 2 weeks. Or did I make several magazines that I trashed each time, thinking I could do better? More importantly, what have I been working on the past 6 months? I was clearly assigned to do the magazine, saying I am working on it the whole time (that it is 1-2 weeks away). Yet, there is no magazine and I am saying it is now 4 weeks away, in the concept stage. Was I working on something else than the magazine?



    Video game development is a fluid, ever changing process. They are perhaps working on the foundations to make other stuff happen. I get that.
    But 3 years into the development, you say feature A is coming in 1 month, you are working on it. 1 year later, said feature A is coming in 2 months.

    What is your take on this?
    do u know how long it takes to create a game? that complex? YEARS... its fucking not even released not even beta.. so yes there is a lack of content maybe well actually no the game has huge amount of it..
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 3,252
    edited November 2015
    CrazKanuk said:
    Arkade99 said:
    Asm0deus said:
    Your premise is flawed. You are talking about content being delivered as if it was a released game that is live.

    It is not.

    The game is still under development and what we have access to now is something they gave us to play around with till the game is ready and also to help them test stuff out.

    What it comes down to is they are still in development and as such have no obligation to deliver us "content" until it goes live.


    Personally I am okay with waiting rather than have a half arsed game pushed on us because of some pencil pushers deadline and bottom line.  Many of us are tired of that kind of thing which was another thing which made SC KS successful.




    In their kickstarter, RSI said the game would include certain things. This is the basic list of things the game would include as detailed on their kickstarter campaign page:

    Real quick, Star Citizen is: 
    A rich universe focused on epic space adventure, trading and dogfighting in first person.
    Single Player – Offline or Online(Drop in / Drop out co-op play) 
    Persistent Universe (hosted by US) 
    Mod-able multiplayer (hosted by YOU) 
    No Subscriptions 
    No Pay to Win 

    The campaign also says that estimated delivery of the final product is November 2014. 

    It is now November 2015 and they have raised way more money than they ever thought they would. So why is the game a year late with no launch date in sight? 

    Chalking that up to "development" doesn't cut it. Their budget grew by leaps and bounds, yet they have proven incapable of making the game in anything close to the time frame they estimated. That's not to say that they won't eventually make the game and that it won't be great, but I don't see how you can give them a pass to this point.

    How many games deliver all features expected or stated? I know that Elite: Dangerous didn't deliver their Offline game. Even with published games, I know that NHL didn't deliver a franchise mode one year. Everyone is welcome to an opinion, obviously, but if you're setting a standard, then is this a standard that you uphold for all games you play? Or do you have a chip on your shoulder? 

    As far as delivery date is concerned. Again, games are delayed quite frequently. Also, the scope of the game changed during and after the crowd-funding. I didn't hear the yelling and screaming about the increased scope while these scope increases were happening. It was all about making the game into something that the community really wanted to see, not just a simplified space flight sim. That is, apparently, what the community wanted. Granted, I'm sure there are those who were more interested in having a game released on time, but the majority wanted a larger game and, with that, comes a longer schedule. In response to that increase in scope, they have began offering refunds to backers who aren't happy which is pretty nice, I think. 

    I really have a difficult time with armchair software developers with no idea what it takes to develop a game. Where a character might take a month to finish or an environment might take months to complete. Never mind that they're apparently trying to do something "impossible". I can appreciate your point about them missing their estimate, but I'd much rather see the game delivered with the features as it sits right now than a simplistic game devoid of any innovation. If you don't feel the same then I'd definitely request a refund. Otherwise, 2016 seems to be the year they're putting out there right now. 
    Not going to bother to reply to those that quoted as this post here by CrazKanuk answers them to my satisfaction especially since these things have been debated ad nauseam in other threads, same as the  claims of SC alread having "subs" or p2w.


    Bottom line is this, people bitch and moan cause games come out half arsed and basically suck but when someone tires to do it right and actually take their time.... people bitch and moan about it taking to long cry cry cry.

    People making these games are gonna lose either way according to all the forum warriors (I include myself in that btw) so they might as well do as they think best regardless of the moaning.

    That said the massive amount of money they raised beyond what they asked for in KS pretty much shows us they are doing something right and people would rather wait on them to get things right rather than rush out a half arsed game.

    I am a fan of elite dangerous but tbh feel they took the opposite route of SC and tbh I am not happy with the end result.  A bare-bones game where grouping (winging up) is tedious and doesn't work all that well, shallow game play, background simulation that is broken and CGs that more often than not have serious issues.   I wont even get into "expansion seasonal" pricing....

    I would rather wait.


    And that OP is my take on it and how I feel about it.

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,766
    I think they should just keep adding new features and selling them and continue pushing back the release date.

    There will never be an actual game, but in like 20 years the hypothetical game will be absolutely mind-blowing.

    And it seems the backers in this thread will be perfectly happy.  It's a win/win.
This discussion has been closed.