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Environment based character development

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  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Member RarePosts: 1,130
    edited November 2015
    Phoebes said:
    I understand people liking strictly player trading without auction houses or consignment type merchants, but I think you're going to lose people if that option is left out. It's just one of those game features that has become expected over the years after being spoiled by them in all the other games, especially for people who don't have tremendous amounts of time to dedicate to playing the game.

    I remember in EQ, it took a lot of time out of the day to sit in the EC tunnel just to sell a couple of items and that takes away from regular game play time by a large amount. To me, sitting in one spot in the game to spam the same thing over and over all day is just not fun. I know many like that aspect, but I think there are others that will be completely turned off by it.

    I think a lot of the audience will be older players that used to like everquest type of games, but many of those players are older now with more responsibilities and just don't have the same amount of time to dedicate like they did before, especially to just sit in one spot and type the same thing repetitively.

    Manually trading in EC tunnel is still immensely popular on project 1999. If you don't have the time to trade for what you want then you don't have the time to level up anyways. In my opinion trading should be almost as much of a time commitment as leveling. Many people also happen to enjoy it, which turns it into a sort of mini game.

    It also makes the world much more immersive, which is worth it in and of itself.
  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,415
    Auction houses can work.  But they have to have a lot of restrictions, things like being regional, having very short time limits (i.e. maybe 1 or 2 days) high costs to use.  Etc.

    Personally i would prefer some sort of virtual post it board, where you can leave a message saying "im selling X Y and Z items, name is blah, contact me.  And people who are looking for the items can then send said person a message and engage in haggling, etc.  Obviously if you are offline then that person would need to either wait until you are online, or buy it from someone else.

    I think its a good middle ground between a full blown AH, and EC tunnel style of system.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Hrimnir said:
    Auction houses can work.  But they have to have a lot of restrictions, things like being regional, having very short time limits (i.e. maybe 1 or 2 days) high costs to use.  Etc.

    Personally i would prefer some sort of virtual post it board, where you can leave a message saying "im selling X Y and Z items, name is blah, contact me.  And people who are looking for the items can then send said person a message and engage in haggling, etc.  Obviously if you are offline then that person would need to either wait until you are online, or buy it from someone else.

    I think its a good middle ground between a full blown AH, and EC tunnel style of system.
    I would like to see vendors used (ie you buy a mule in game for this specific purpose) that have rent fees, a buy in (ie like a license), a city tax (consignment fee on sales) that is limited by factors such as space (ie rent increases as your storage space increases), etc.... that is dependent on each city or location. You could place the vendor in city areas or similar location, but the game would automatically deduct and charge fees through the vendor so there would be no way to avoid paying.

    This would require due diligence and a "plan of attack" to be a vendor as if someone just bought a vendor without thinking it threw, they could go in the hole very easily. These fees, taxes, etc... could all be adjustable based on VRs evaluation of what they want to see in trade. For instance, if people gather up in a single place to do their trade; taxes, fees, etc... could all be increased (you know, because... if trade is booming, the local magistrate is going to want their cut right?). The point is, this gives some control to VR while still fitting in line with a realistic approach to trade.

    There are some problems with it though... They would have to control transactions which could be rather draconian (trade is done through vendors, not player to player) which I don't think would go over well without some system to allow player to player trade, but doesn't allow it for profit, which of course beings in its own problems.

    The idea though is to be able to implement game play elements that make trading just as a pro/con game with risk/reward as adventuring is.


  • AmsaiAmsai Member UncommonPosts: 299
    Im not saying I dislike some of these ideas, but at a certain point Id avoid trading and just NPC everything. So perfectly good mats for crafters never get to market because I cant get that involved. Id only end maximizing my profit with sought after drops or old gear i no longer needed. Im not much for crafting in most games but I do usually gather mats. If I cant somewhat reasonably offload a stack of "silkworm thread", then Ill just NPC vendor it...... which also ends up screwing over the clothcrafters. So Im not saying I wouldnt play a game with the kinds of measures some of you want to put in place. Ill just circumnavigate it somehow, even if that means its easier for me to drop things on the ground. I think at a certain point you have to decide if you want a functioning economy or a more immersive one (that nobody uses). Careful line not to be crossed I think. Have you guys ever been on a server thats economy has tanked and you cant find anything, anywhere, ever? I have and its not pretty.

    Short version: Ill bend over backwards to maximize a big seller, but Ill just be looking to get rid of vendor trash/gathering materials. (Speculation....... I dont think Id be the only one)


  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 5,085
    Manually trading in EC tunnel is still immensely popular on project 1999. If you don't have the time to trade for what you want then you don't have the time to level up anyways. In my opinion trading should be almost as much of a time commitment as leveling. Many people also happen to enjoy it, which turns it into a sort of mini game.

    It also makes the world much more immersive, which is worth it in and of itself.
    I completely fail to see the point of having to keep my computer running overnight just so I can sell stuff. Its a gross waste of current and network bandwidth, too.

    As I said before, if thats your idea, I'm out.

    Rather give me an auction house instead. Its a simple and reasonable solution.

  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Manually trading in EC tunnel is still immensely popular on project 1999. If you don't have the time to trade for what you want then you don't have the time to level up anyways. In my opinion trading should be almost as much of a time commitment as leveling. Many people also happen to enjoy it, which turns it into a sort of mini game.

    It also makes the world much more immersive, which is worth it in and of itself.
    I completely fail to see the point of having to keep my computer running overnight just so I can sell stuff. Its a gross waste of current and network bandwidth, too.

    As I said before, if thats your idea, I'm out.

    Rather give me an auction house instead. Its a simple and reasonable solution.

    The point is that you have to spend time and effort to the game play element. You want to "play" trader, well... "play" trader. You want to adventure, well... adventure, but if you want to gain benefits of trading without any attention to it while you still adventure? Well... that is the problem with games these days and it is why economies are nothing more than gimmicks. With such systems, players will have to balance their time, choose their attention. That is the entire point.


  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Member RarePosts: 1,130
    Manually trading in EC tunnel is still immensely popular on project 1999. If you don't have the time to trade for what you want then you don't have the time to level up anyways. In my opinion trading should be almost as much of a time commitment as leveling. Many people also happen to enjoy it, which turns it into a sort of mini game.

    It also makes the world much more immersive, which is worth it in and of itself.
    I completely fail to see the point of having to keep my computer running overnight just so I can sell stuff. Its a gross waste of current and network bandwidth, too.

    As I said before, if thats your idea, I'm out.

    Rather give me an auction house instead. Its a simple and reasonable solution.

    Who said anything about keeping your computer on? I'm not talking about a EQ luclin bazaar, that was pure AIDS. I'm talking about having to actively trade. You know......social interaction.......in an MMORPG.
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 5,085
    Dude, its a roleplaying game, not a trade simulation.

  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Dude, its a roleplaying game, not a trade simulation.

    Game, correct. Not an entertainment simulator.
  • Raidan_EQRaidan_EQ Member UncommonPosts: 247
     I'd prefer an East Commonland Style Player run-auction style versus a dedicated auction house (even local auction houses).

     We talk about emergent gameplay that results as in adventuring, but the same can be said for having the player trading also.  When you sell on an auction house, it's literally /search Sword A.  Ahhh I found Sword A selling for 100 PP.  Let's sell Sword A for 95 PP.  Then Player B runs up who also has Sword A, sees its selling at 95 PP, lists it and undercuts it at 90 PP, Player C undercuts at 85 PP.   Rinse and repeat.  No time is invested, no player interaction is observed, and no community is formed.

    I'd argue that it damages the player economy by having an AH.   There is a mass flood of items due to items being able to be sold 24/7 and on multiple characters.  Items are continuously being undercut and the supply ultimately becomes much greater than the demand.  The only positive of an AH is convenience.   It allows a player to list (not even sell) their items much easier than physically being present.

    When players have to be physically present at the computer auctioning, not only does it take time to sell, which limits adventuring time obtaining additional items to sell, but only one character from that account could be selling items at the same.  Also, you're able to haggle prices, barter, etc.  You also see more players helping out newbies with more of the common items because they know they won't sell for much, or they don't want take the time to sell items for change.  A player also has to make the choice of whether they want to sell their items or adventure/craft.  And, the location of where you're selling often makes a difference.  Yes, East Commonlands was one of the major hubs, but if an item was dropped near East Commonlands, I could get a better price often if I sold it in Greater Faydark for example.

    And, I'd be more in the Adamantine camp that I prefer to adventure over playing /trader.  However, that does not mean that I can't see the value in a player ran economy.  I don't have the patience to sell my items for full price, so I always usually selling them for much lower than the "going rate" and get back to adventuring. Often, I end up about breaking even anyway because I obtain more items to sell from adventuring than I would have sitting and waiting to sell an item at its market value. 

    Also, I know that resellers often will by my wares versus a player who "needs" the item.  It creates almost another game in and of itself for players who want to make a profit to roleplay trader all day.  I would argue Adamantine, that you would fit more in my mold that you wouldn't be a "trader," but rather, you'd sell your wares low enough to be able to instantly receive tells and return to adventure to obtain more items.


  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 5,085
    Sinist said:
    Dude, its a roleplaying game, not a trade simulation.

    Game, correct. Not an entertainment simulator.
    What did you want to state with that posting

    My ponit is - if trade takes too much time, I'll just skip it. Thats what I did in Vanguard, after all, after first the economy was screwed thanks to dup bugs and goldsellers and then there was hardly any population.

  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Sinist said:
    Dude, its a roleplaying game, not a trade simulation.

    Game, correct. Not an entertainment simulator.
    What did you want to state with that posting

    My ponit is - if trade takes too much time, I'll just skip it. Thats what I did in Vanguard, after all, after first the economy was screwed thanks to dup bugs and goldsellers and then there was hardly any population.

    The point is, it is a Game, as in "a set of obstacles to which a person competes to overcome according to a set of rules". It isn't just an entertainment simulator where everything is designed for the convenience of what someone wants.

    Trading in many games is just a convenience, not a game play element. It is some place where people off load all their goods and make tons of money while doing nothing in the process other than posting it through a computerized interface that does all the work and isn't a part of game play, it is a convenience system.

    What you are saying is that if you have to put effort into it (ie play a game of trading) you don't want to do it. Fine, don't do it, but that isn't a valid reason to expect trade to not be a game system in its own that requires effort and time for a player to succeed in it. Expecting that trade shouldn't have such elements of play is no different than another who thinks various elements of combat and adventure gaming shouldn't require effort.

    Who is right? I would say those who are against game play are.
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 5,085
    I'm not opposing trade.

    I'm opposing spending more time on trade than is necessary. This is supposed to be a roleplaying game. Not a trade simulation. The main activity is always adventuring.
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    I'm not opposing trade.

    I'm opposing spending more time on trade than is necessary. This is supposed to be a roleplaying game. Not a trade simulation. The main activity is always adventuring.
    That is subjective though. What you think is unnecessary isn't what others may think.

    Also, trade is a portion of role playing, especially if you are going to allow a player to trade in the game and encourage an economic system. It is the uncontrolled economies to which have done extreme harm to the "adventuring" portion of games these days.
     
    Like it or not, people play the trading game and if VR are serious about protecting the game, they are going to have to attend to the issues that trading produces. They can go the Draconian route of caps, and invisible walls, limits, etc... or they can go the game play route making trading a game with pros/cons, risks/rewards, and effort based play, just like adventuring is. I prefer the latter as everything should be a game play element.


  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Member RarePosts: 1,130
    I'm not opposing trade.

    I'm opposing spending more time on trade than is necessary. This is supposed to be a roleplaying game. Not a trade simulation. The main activity is always adventuring.
    I enjoyed trading in EC tunnel with no auction system and even I only had to spend maybe 1 day trading out of 7. That is in no way an unreasonable amount of trading. If you had to spend 50% of your time trading you'd have a point but that was never the case except for players that wanted to be 24/7 merchant kingpins.
  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,415
    Sinist said:
    Dude, its a roleplaying game, not a trade simulation.

    Game, correct. Not an entertainment simulator.
    What did you want to state with that posting

    My ponit is - if trade takes too much time, I'll just skip it. Thats what I did in Vanguard, after all, after first the economy was screwed thanks to dup bugs and goldsellers and then there was hardly any population.

    But see thats the point.  For you, it might not be worth the time, and thats fine, but for others it was.  And for most, it was somewhere in between.  I thought one of the great things about EC tunnel (or on Mithaniel Marr, NFP) was that sometimes people would drop in and sell an item for 60% of what it was worth, because they didn't want to spend 2 hours trying to maximize profits.  So, if you happened to be there at the right time, you might could nab that item you've been wanting at a killer price.

    It all pans out in the end.

    My point though is that an AH can work, it just has to have enough "bad" sides to encourage trading.  I'll give an example, in EQ2 you could run to the persons home, and buy the item off their trader, and avoid paying the AH fee.  For small items, like crafting mats, this may not be worth it.  But for large items, it was absolutely worth it.  However, the option was there if you didnt want to spend the time tracking the persons home down and go there, etc etc.

    Another option would be to allow only "common" and "uncommon" items to be sold on the AH.  So, items that are singularly of a high value, you could only trade.  Whereas items that may be sold in stacks, such as crafting mats.  Or more common items, could be dropped on the AH, etc.  I think its important for "nice" items to have to be traded in person.  The reason for this is prices and such fluctuate based on supply and demand at that particular time.  I feel if someone wants to spend the time to make sure they get maximum value for an item, they should have that option.  I also feel if someone wants to be the person who sits around all day buying low and selling high, that should also be an option.  Having an AH unfortunately kills this type of gameplay.

    I have to admit, i particularly like my idea.  I know thats narcissistic, but i think having an AH for crafting mats and items that aren't super rare (what we would by most MMO's consider "green" con items) and not allowing say "Blue" or "purple" or whatever, to be sold on the AH, gives the best of both worlds.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    edited November 2015
    Or you could simply put a tax on a local AH and a bigger tax on global AH. I don't mean little 1% or 10% taxes, I mean big taxes. Probably 20% on local, 40% on global. People would naturally gravitate away from the AH for larger more valuable items, and people who enjoy trading would still make a killing the old fashioned way.


  • FelwitFelwit Member UncommonPosts: 20
    One major factor to consider with respect to automated auction houses is the crafting system. If the crafting system will require a lot of interdependence (to make armor, blacksmith requires leather padding from leatherworker, metal plates and bars from a smelter, etching chemicals from an alchemist, stencils from a scribe, etc.), lack of an automated auction house could make just gathering the crafting materials troublesome.

    If Pantheon uses an auction house, consider making it more of a stock/commodities market, where there are both bid and ask prices. Thus, not only can one see what the supply is, but also see when something is in demand and not being fulfilled. This can also prevent folks from buying up everything and relisting at 300% markup. Unless someone needs it "right now," they can always list a bid at the normal price, which will likely be fulfilled if they can wait a day or two.
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    edited November 2015
    Felwit said:
    One major factor to consider with respect to automated auction houses is the crafting system. If the crafting system will require a lot of interdependence (to make armor, blacksmith requires leather padding from leatherworker, metal plates and bars from a smelter, etching chemicals from an alchemist, stencils from a scribe, etc.), lack of an automated auction house could make just gathering the crafting materials troublesome.

    If Pantheon uses an auction house, consider making it more of a stock/commodities market, where there are both bid and ask prices. Thus, not only can one see what the supply is, but also see when something is in demand and not being fulfilled. This can also prevent folks from buying up everything and relisting at 300% markup. Unless someone needs it "right now," they can always list a bid at the normal price, which will likely be fulfilled if they can wait a day or two.
    If they go with an AH (which I hope they do not), they need to make it like EQ2 where the player can sort and order the products however they like. It is the only way to allow people to combat the gimmick AH style of play. In WoW, they always tried to make it hard to organize the products by various categories which only fueled various gimmicks.

    I found that in EQ2, I could easily identify the seller, beat their price. The gimmick sellers still could function, but they had no power over the average seller. I remember walking in, checking the price lists and underbidding them every time I came through town. I could drive a gimmick sellers price down easily and the "buy up" players (ie the ones who would buy everything and sell it at high prices), well... I just underbid them constantly, and then kept driving them back down, occasionally buying them up when they went too low so I could force them to stay at reasonable prices.

    I played all types of games and made ridiculous amounts of money working off the gimmick sellers.

    Honestly though, I prefer not to play those stupid games, but if we have to have some AH like system, I want the power of along the lines of SQL to be able to search and organize by any means I can think of.
  • FourplayFourplay Member UncommonPosts: 216
    edited November 2015
    Dullahan said:
    Or you could simply put a tax on a local AH and a bigger tax on global AH. I don't mean little 1% or 10% taxes, I mean big taxes. Probably 20% on local, 40% on global. People would naturally gravitate away from the AH for larger more valuable items, and people who enjoy trading would still make a killing the old fashioned way.
    That addresses part of the problem.
    Truism # 1 The seller wants to sell for a bunch since they spend a lot of time and effort.
    Truism # 2 The buyer wants to buy for less with as little effort as possible.

    The problem with this if this is the only solution, is the person not interested in trading wars is still going to always shop local which will make them feel punished unless money is ridiculously easy to make adventuring.

    An AH can work to appease both parties but prices have to be set in stone similar to how an npc vendor works statically. First stock equals first sale at a fixed price. Then that tax system can be applied to make sense since local products are always cheaper than imported. Undercutting and overpricing is virtually eliminated in the convenience sector of the economy. 

    Rare/EX products and trading wars takes place in bazaars and such where people have to physically walk to find deals or goods not able to be listed on the AH such as rare drops.

    There could be a progression bar for people who run bazaars. Where you level up periodically with every sale or profit milestone reached not purchased by your IP address or account. Things like additional bazaars, supply line deals, or even a traveling caravan/bazaar. This caravan would travel a predefined path selling goods that might be needed in a particular zone/area.
    Post edited by Fourplay on
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Fourplay said:

    The problem with this if this is the only solution, is the person not interested in trading wars is still going to always shop local which will make them feel punished unless money is ridiculously easy to make adventuring.

    They shouldn't get concerned about people "feeling" punished because it is the person who chooses not to take advantage of the game play element who is punishing themselves. They have to be careful with these types of objections as I have seen them used quite often in the past to justify why a given person doesn't want to have to deal with a given balancing game mechanic.

    That said, they also need to consider base habits of people due to their... "choice" to not put effort into the game and how that approach may create issues in the systems they are trying to introduce to achieve balance in the economy.
  • sh33pishsh33pish Member UncommonPosts: 54
    Hrimnir said:
    Auction houses can work.  But they have to have a lot of restrictions, things like being regional, having very short time limits (i.e. maybe 1 or 2 days) high costs to use.  Etc.

    Personally i would prefer some sort of virtual post it board, where you can leave a message saying "im selling X Y and Z items, name is blah, contact me.  And people who are looking for the items can then send said person a message and engage in haggling, etc.  Obviously if you are offline then that person would need to either wait until you are online, or buy it from someone else.

    I think its a good middle ground between a full blown AH, and EC tunnel style of system.
    You, sir, are a genius.  As an advocate for EC tunnel style trading, I think this is a GREAT idea.  A message board listing "for sale" or "wanted" items, but the actual mechanic of trading or negotiating final price would be between the players. Basically craigslist for Pantheon.  

    In practice:

    You look at the for sale board in region_01 and find a listing:  "Selling Blade of Awesome Idea, asking 10g. PST to Hrimnir"

    You tell Hrimnir, "Do you still have the Blade of Awesome Idea for sale?"
    Hrimnir tells you, "Yeah, interested?"
    You tell Hrimnir, "Yes, how much are you asking?"
    Hrimnir tells you, "10 gold.  I'm in zone_01, where are you?"
    You tell Hrimnir, "zone_02.  How about 8 gold?  Meet at the bank in zone_01?"
    Hrimnir tells you, "9 gold and I'll meet you there"
    You tell Hrimnir, "Deal. On my way."

    The exchange above is the trading experience I want.  Advertising manually EC tunnel style is still an option for additional exposure, but a "for sale" listing can be placed on the advertising board in whatever region you're in.  Trade still happens face-to-face with room for final negotiation.  No broker or auction house to sterilize the transaction.
  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,415
    sh33pish said:
      You tell Hrimnir, "Do you still have the Blade of Awesome Idea for sale?"
    Hrimnir tells you, "Yeah, interested?"
    You tell Hrimnir, "Yes, how much are you asking?"
    Hrimnir tells you, "10 gold.  I'm in zone_01, where are you?"
    You tell Hrimnir, "zone_02.  How about 8 gold?  Meet at the bank in zone_01?"
    Hrimnir tells you, "9 gold and I'll meet you there"
    You tell Hrimnir, "Deal. On my way."

    The exchange above is the trading experience I want.  Advertising manually EC tunnel style is still an option for additional exposure, but a "for sale" listing can be placed on the advertising board in whatever region you're in.  Trade still happens face-to-face with room for final negotiation.  No broker or auction house to sterilize the transaction.

    Dude, you just brought me back.  I started tearing up...  It was like I was reading an old chat log from EQ lol.  Just replace Zone_01 with Dreadlands, and gold with "pp" and it was like being in a time machine.

    Project 1999 actually had an external website someone set up that tracked the EC tunnel and you could search the log for item names, and that way you could see that say 9 hours ago someone was auctioning off an item, and you could write the persons name down and then try to contact them in game.  I tracked down many items and negotiated pricing for them that way.  Sometimes it took a few days for us to be online at the same time.  And sometimes they had already sold the item, but dems the breaks.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • sh33pishsh33pish Member UncommonPosts: 54
    Glad to hear it man.  You should put this idea in it's own thread.  I'm tempted, but I don't want to take anything away from this being 100% your idea.

    In summary, a regional message board (could be laid out and searchable similar to the auction houses we see today) that shows what people are trying to sell, but does not mediate the transaction.  That part would still need to be done face to face.  Sending a message to the person, asking if the item is still for sale, and negotiating the price and where the trade will occur.

    You've nailed it, and I think its a great idea.  I hope it gets some dev attention.
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