A lot of people here seem to regard race as a suit of clothes their avatar wears. Why should there be class restrictions on my wearing green trousers? But if you are actually wanting to play a Role Playing Game a character's race is a fundamental part of their nature and should have a large effect on what classes they could become.
A lot of people do seem to think of race as a suit their avatars wear. On the other hand, a lot of people pretend like it's should be impossible for certain races to try and be something other what a developer decides it should be. In my opinion, give the races certain leanings that makes sense with their lore and allow the players the power to decide what makes sense. And allow the players to try and find ways to make things make sense.
This all really depends on what kind of game it wants to be. Is it going to be distilled into min/max style raiding? Then you might as well restrict classes so that less people can make mistakes. If it's going to have depth, then give the races what makes sense lore wise and give classes what makes sense lore wise and then give the players agency.
Having hard race / class restrictions does treat races as a suit of clothes. Say you want your character to be a paladin (since that's been used in the thread). Say the game has 4 races with different stats. It's basically choosing what look and stat combo you want for your paladin.
The race doesn't mean much. It boils down to a stat choice and there will always be a single best stat choice which leaves you hoping you like what that looks like. It's a one dimensional approach but it's easier to balance and less costly to implement.
In a more in depth racial and character profession system each race would have strengths and weaknesses to any profession they take up. Say your elf does want to be a paladin. Their strengths might not best suit that at outset so they would be at a disadvantage, but there could be other racial qualities that would add to the class. Maybe they level slower but have better health, as an example tradeoff.
We used to do the latter system in table top AD&D and Rolemaster. The DM would adjust xp curves (or xp gained) and other things that made sense within the context of the choice and campaign.
That sort of thing works fine if you have half a dozen players and your own DM. This is a Massively Multiplayer game with the DM hard coded. You can't make your case for a set of unique exceptions to the lore when you don't have that level of fine control, you have to accept that the lore and the game code will have hard edges.
Yeah, maybe you should read and think through that again. That isn't what I was saying at all, but since you and Savage prefer the echo chamber and can't see past your own need to have everyone agree with you, feel free to ignore.
Hmmm, ""The DM would adjust xp curves (or xp gained) and other things that made sense within the context of the choice and campaign""
Sounds very much like you are expecting an intimate relationship with a personal DM to me. Just not possible in a MMORPG.
Then there is the idea of an elf paladin, great if it is one elf paladin or even a few. Multiply that out to thousands and you know you are going to get all the forum angst about ' why is my elf paladin nerfed ', demands to break lore and modify or dilute racial characteristics.
That's my argument, you want personal exceptions appropriate in a pen and paper game and impossible in an MMORPG.
You don't have to agree, and probably won't. But since you want me to reflect on your post perhaps you should too.
A lot of people here seem to regard race as a suit of clothes their avatar wears. Why should there be class restrictions on my wearing green trousers? But if you are actually wanting to play a Role Playing Game a character's race is a fundamental part of their nature and should have a large effect on what classes they could become.
A lot of people do seem to think of race as a suit their avatars wear. On the other hand, a lot of people pretend like it's should be impossible for certain races to try and be something other what a developer decides it should be. In my opinion, give the races certain leanings that makes sense with their lore and allow the players the power to decide what makes sense. And allow the players to try and find ways to make things make sense.
This all really depends on what kind of game it wants to be. Is it going to be distilled into min/max style raiding? Then you might as well restrict classes so that less people can make mistakes. If it's going to have depth, then give the races what makes sense lore wise and give classes what makes sense lore wise and then give the players agency.
Having hard race / class restrictions does treat races as a suit of clothes. Say you want your character to be a paladin (since that's been used in the thread). Say the game has 4 races with different stats. It's basically choosing what look and stat combo you want for your paladin.
The race doesn't mean much. It boils down to a stat choice and there will always be a single best stat choice which leaves you hoping you like what that looks like. It's a one dimensional approach but it's easier to balance and less costly to implement.
In a more in depth racial and character profession system each race would have strengths and weaknesses to any profession they take up. Say your elf does want to be a paladin. Their strengths might not best suit that at outset so they would be at a disadvantage, but there could be other racial qualities that would add to the class. Maybe they level slower but have better health, as an example tradeoff.
We used to do the latter system in table top AD&D and Rolemaster. The DM would adjust xp curves (or xp gained) and other things that made sense within the context of the choice and campaign.
What race / class combo is missing for you?
The one I can't choose? :chuffed:
Like I said, practically speaking I'll deal with whatever. When I play games I just take them for what they offer and have the fun available. When it stops then I move on, but I'm pretty flexible and open. I can find fun in most games.
With this we're mostly talking design theory. I certainly don't expect VR or any studio to act on it. For one, while the ideas about in depth race / class building could add a lot, they're also very expensive. It's not necessarily a realistic expectation of any development budget and certainly not an indie studio budget. The cost for the animations, meshes, and textures alone for all those combinations would be huge. Balancing complexity increases as well. I still think it's a good goal and the right way to approach things, but it's not always pragmatic.
Armchair devs are an embarrassment, you have no idea where VR are at with funding and investment. Stop assuming they are still in the same situation as when they first started the kickstarer.
Don't like the class/race restrictions then go play a game that lets you play to your style.
This isn't ESO.
The irony. You have no idea either and you constantly spew your "dev insights".
They certainly don't have AAA or Star Citizen level funding or they wouldn't be using Unity. Or let's phrase this a different way, if they're using Unity with AAA funding some people are going to be pissed when reality dawns in the morning.
You don't handle the fact that others have different opinions and don't care if you get all uptight about it.
Well you proved; AAA funding or the game engine used for a game doesn't reflect it's success/productivity (eg Star Citizen still in the making). As far as Unity goes, isn't it usually standard to use 3rd party modeling programs anyhow when using it (i.e. they could be utilizing the parts of Unity that are strong such as organizing data while using custom programs for other parts of development)? The other thing to mention is they started development of Pantheon using Unity so long ago, that it would be beyond counterproductive to start everything over regardless of whether they have A or AAA funding right? Just food for thought
As we've discussed before, I'd be all for them adding a way via quest line, to betray your class and join another class guild which isn't available at character select. Which would probably include betraying your deity, and possibly require gaining faction with another guild or even another race.
Yeah In EQ 2 I could not resist having a Dark Elf Paladin by way of the betrayal quest they had in that game. He started out as a ShadowKnight. Of course it involved betraying your fraction evil to good. I am not sure how factions are going to be done in Pantheon.
A lot of people here seem to regard race as a suit of clothes their avatar wears. Why should there be class restrictions on my wearing green trousers? But if you are actually wanting to play a Role Playing Game a character's race is a fundamental part of their nature and should have a large effect on what classes they could become.
A lot of people do seem to think of race as a suit their avatars wear. On the other hand, a lot of people pretend like it's should be impossible for certain races to try and be something other what a developer decides it should be. In my opinion, give the races certain leanings that makes sense with their lore and allow the players the power to decide what makes sense. And allow the players to try and find ways to make things make sense.
This all really depends on what kind of game it wants to be. Is it going to be distilled into min/max style raiding? Then you might as well restrict classes so that less people can make mistakes. If it's going to have depth, then give the races what makes sense lore wise and give classes what makes sense lore wise and then give the players agency.
Having hard race / class restrictions does treat races as a suit of clothes. Say you want your character to be a paladin (since that's been used in the thread). Say the game has 4 races with different stats. It's basically choosing what look and stat combo you want for your paladin.
The race doesn't mean much. It boils down to a stat choice and there will always be a single best stat choice which leaves you hoping you like what that looks like. It's a one dimensional approach but it's easier to balance and less costly to implement.
In a more in depth racial and character profession system each race would have strengths and weaknesses to any profession they take up. Say your elf does want to be a paladin. Their strengths might not best suit that at outset so they would be at a disadvantage, but there could be other racial qualities that would add to the class. Maybe they level slower but have better health, as an example tradeoff.
We used to do the latter system in table top AD&D and Rolemaster. The DM would adjust xp curves (or xp gained) and other things that made sense within the context of the choice and campaign.
I never picked a race based on it having a stat advantage for the class I want to play. In most games and probably this one also, the minor stat advantage does not matter once you level up a bit. I think most people are getting bent out of shape over the Paladin race choices and lack of an elf cleric. Probably the paladin issue is an elf one also. I would prefer both those choices be available but it is the developers choice.
A lot of people here seem to regard race as a suit of clothes their avatar wears. Why should there be class restrictions on my wearing green trousers? But if you are actually wanting to play a Role Playing Game a character's race is a fundamental part of their nature and should have a large effect on what classes they could become.
A lot of people do seem to think of race as a suit their avatars wear. On the other hand, a lot of people pretend like it's should be impossible for certain races to try and be something other what a developer decides it should be. In my opinion, give the races certain leanings that makes sense with their lore and allow the players the power to decide what makes sense. And allow the players to try and find ways to make things make sense.
This all really depends on what kind of game it wants to be. Is it going to be distilled into min/max style raiding? Then you might as well restrict classes so that less people can make mistakes. If it's going to have depth, then give the races what makes sense lore wise and give classes what makes sense lore wise and then give the players agency.
Having hard race / class restrictions does treat races as a suit of clothes. Say you want your character to be a paladin (since that's been used in the thread). Say the game has 4 races with different stats. It's basically choosing what look and stat combo you want for your paladin.
The race doesn't mean much. It boils down to a stat choice and there will always be a single best stat choice which leaves you hoping you like what that looks like. It's a one dimensional approach but it's easier to balance and less costly to implement.
In a more in depth racial and character profession system each race would have strengths and weaknesses to any profession they take up. Say your elf does want to be a paladin. Their strengths might not best suit that at outset so they would be at a disadvantage, but there could be other racial qualities that would add to the class. Maybe they level slower but have better health, as an example tradeoff.
We used to do the latter system in table top AD&D and Rolemaster. The DM would adjust xp curves (or xp gained) and other things that made sense within the context of the choice and campaign.
I never picked a race based on it having a stat advantage for the class I want to play. In most games and probably this one also, the minor stat advantage does not matter once you level up a bit. I think most people are getting bent out of shape over the Paladin race choices and lack of an elf cleric. Probably the paladin issue is an elf one also. I would prefer both those choices be available but it is the developers choice.
Ya that the only fault I can find with this table. Elf should get cleric and Paladin, unless there is so lore fact I'm missing. What I read about their race seems they are a goodly race. Could it be a deity issue?
A lot of people here seem to regard race as a suit of clothes their avatar wears. Why should there be class restrictions on my wearing green trousers? But if you are actually wanting to play a Role Playing Game a character's race is a fundamental part of their nature and should have a large effect on what classes they could become.
A lot of people do seem to think of race as a suit their avatars wear. On the other hand, a lot of people pretend like it's should be impossible for certain races to try and be something other what a developer decides it should be. In my opinion, give the races certain leanings that makes sense with their lore and allow the players the power to decide what makes sense. And allow the players to try and find ways to make things make sense.
This all really depends on what kind of game it wants to be. Is it going to be distilled into min/max style raiding? Then you might as well restrict classes so that less people can make mistakes. If it's going to have depth, then give the races what makes sense lore wise and give classes what makes sense lore wise and then give the players agency.
Having hard race / class restrictions does treat races as a suit of clothes. Say you want your character to be a paladin (since that's been used in the thread). Say the game has 4 races with different stats. It's basically choosing what look and stat combo you want for your paladin.
The race doesn't mean much. It boils down to a stat choice and there will always be a single best stat choice which leaves you hoping you like what that looks like. It's a one dimensional approach but it's easier to balance and less costly to implement.
In a more in depth racial and character profession system each race would have strengths and weaknesses to any profession they take up. Say your elf does want to be a paladin. Their strengths might not best suit that at outset so they would be at a disadvantage, but there could be other racial qualities that would add to the class. Maybe they level slower but have better health, as an example tradeoff.
We used to do the latter system in table top AD&D and Rolemaster. The DM would adjust xp curves (or xp gained) and other things that made sense within the context of the choice and campaign.
I never picked a race based on it having a stat advantage for the class I want to play. In most games and probably this one also, the minor stat advantage does not matter once you level up a bit. I think most people are getting bent out of shape over the Paladin race choices and lack of an elf cleric. Probably the paladin issue is an elf one also. I would prefer both those choices be available but it is the developers choice.
I think that is part of the problem in understanding each other in this thread. If, for instance, Ogres did 50% less magic damage overall and had 50% more hp, then the players could decide whether or not they wanted to play an Ogre mage. With real consequences to choosing your race, the choice falls into the players hands. And with an interesting progression system, there can perhaps be some oddball interesting builds that actually work.
That is much more interesting and potentially much more varied. Also, it's much more difficult to balance. I'm not sure what kind of game this wants to be because there is a certain amount of vagueness when it comes to things like balance, but at least in my opinion, class restrictions based on race because of some lore reason should be used sparingly.
I agree with Torval,we need REAL noticeable differences,otherwise why bother at all. Brad said they are aiming for what "makes sense" so i am going to trust him until i see otherwise. I love and really need to see depth in my games and racial is a great way to start. To put it in perspective,i would rather have pre rendered characters with George Jetson hair do's with lots of statistical depth than a pile of sliders to fiddle with my hair color and tattoos.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Why would all races being able to play all classes make sense? I started with EQ so maybe I'm biased, but an Elf dark knight or ogre enchanter don't make sense. I LOVED my Erudite Cleric in EQ. Interesting and rare race/class combos add flavor to the game for me. That being said, I find some of the choice they have put on the chart for Pantheon a little strange.
Because that should be up to the player, not the developer. What if I want to play a wizard but I hate Erudites? Why should I be forced to pick a race I hate to be the best I can be? Shouldn't my actual PLAYing matter, not an asinine choice of how my avatar looks?
Some classes have up to 8 options for race. Most 4+. Paladin only has 2 races to pick from but again this is all bound to lore and common sense. Would you ask an Ogre to do brain surgery on you? No and for many reasons no. If you dont get they are trying to create Races/Class diversity. Making Races matter, then maybe you are looking at the wrong game. With how open the options are I am sure you could find a Race/Class combo you could enjoy. If your life boils down to only a Ogre Wizard will do, then I dont know what to say to you to see reason. There are tones of options.
Do brain surgeons exist in the fantasy world we're talking about? Is anyone a brain surgeon? I wouldn't want a human or elf doing brain surgery either in that world.
It's completely arbitrary. There is no reason an Ogre couldn't be a paladin or a mage. I guess you could go with the D&D trope of inherent magic resistance, but then that should apply to weapon, spell, and armour too. Those should fail for non-magic users, or they shouldn't be allowed to use magic items because of lore reasons.
There is no reasoning to this because like I said the entire concept isn't built on reason. It's built on a perspective of arbitrary choices. Some of the great fantasy works have specifically broken out of those early D&D tropes because why should Gygax and Cook decide how we play fantasy characters forever going forward.
If the design is good you could have diversity and still let any race take on any profession. Just saying it can't be done "realistically" is weak, or just not honest.
Gygax and Cook influenced Brad and Co to make Everquest. EQ was always a D&D inspired mmo. As was Vanguard as is Pantheon.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
two things first of all making how classes play differ based on race is a bad idea as it will inevitably lead to min/maxxers declare, no you cannot bring your halfling warrior along as it is a 'bad combo/choice' we are only accepting Ogre warriors here. you know that will hapen.. second I am sure that, while it is a little bit buried in the site somewhere, or maybe it was the forums somewhere I read recently, they said 'as they are building a brand new world from scratch here you can leave your preconceptions from D&D/WOW etc at the door, the example the threw out was this.. Ogre Druids is something they are seriously considering....
A lot of people here seem to regard race as a suit of clothes their avatar wears. Why should there be class restrictions on my wearing green trousers? But if you are actually wanting to play a Role Playing Game a character's race is a fundamental part of their nature and should have a large effect on what classes they could become.
A lot of people do seem to think of race as a suit their avatars wear. On the other hand, a lot of people pretend like it's should be impossible for certain races to try and be something other what a developer decides it should be. In my opinion, give the races certain leanings that makes sense with their lore and allow the players the power to decide what makes sense. And allow the players to try and find ways to make things make sense.
This all really depends on what kind of game it wants to be. Is it going to be distilled into min/max style raiding? Then you might as well restrict classes so that less people can make mistakes. If it's going to have depth, then give the races what makes sense lore wise and give classes what makes sense lore wise and then give the players agency.
Having hard race / class restrictions does treat races as a suit of clothes. Say you want your character to be a paladin (since that's been used in the thread). Say the game has 4 races with different stats. It's basically choosing what look and stat combo you want for your paladin.
The race doesn't mean much. It boils down to a stat choice and there will always be a single best stat choice which leaves you hoping you like what that looks like. It's a one dimensional approach but it's easier to balance and less costly to implement.
In a more in depth racial and character profession system each race would have strengths and weaknesses to any profession they take up. Say your elf does want to be a paladin. Their strengths might not best suit that at outset so they would be at a disadvantage, but there could be other racial qualities that would add to the class. Maybe they level slower but have better health, as an example tradeoff.
We used to do the latter system in table top AD&D and Rolemaster. The DM would adjust xp curves (or xp gained) and other things that made sense within the context of the choice and campaign.
I never picked a race based on it having a stat advantage for the class I want to play. In most games and probably this one also, the minor stat advantage does not matter once you level up a bit. I think most people are getting bent out of shape over the Paladin race choices and lack of an elf cleric. Probably the paladin issue is an elf one also. I would prefer both those choices be available but it is the developers choice.
That makes races just a cosmetic then. That's what all games do, non-effective racial differences. That relegates races to a suit a clothes you wear. If choices are arbitrary and non-effective then why restrict them? If the team has as much money as people in the know claim they do then they shouldn't be skimping on variety. It can't be both ways. If it's just because "EQ did it" then just be honest and say, we're remaking EQ (which the team has strongly denied). If we're not remaking EQ then why not think outside the box a little.
It's things like this, this 'EQ did it' mentality, plus the evidence of the streams that look like nothing more than the basic 1999 EQ model, make me leery about Pantheon aiming no higher than an 'EQ with modern graphics', despite the website and fervent backers claims. That's what I'm afraid we're going to get, and that isn't a step forward for the genre. That would be a step backwards.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
A lot of people here seem to regard race as a suit of clothes their avatar wears. Why should there be class restrictions on my wearing green trousers? But if you are actually wanting to play a Role Playing Game a character's race is a fundamental part of their nature and should have a large effect on what classes they could become.
A lot of people do seem to think of race as a suit their avatars wear. On the other hand, a lot of people pretend like it's should be impossible for certain races to try and be something other what a developer decides it should be. In my opinion, give the races certain leanings that makes sense with their lore and allow the players the power to decide what makes sense. And allow the players to try and find ways to make things make sense.
This all really depends on what kind of game it wants to be. Is it going to be distilled into min/max style raiding? Then you might as well restrict classes so that less people can make mistakes. If it's going to have depth, then give the races what makes sense lore wise and give classes what makes sense lore wise and then give the players agency.
Having hard race / class restrictions does treat races as a suit of clothes. Say you want your character to be a paladin (since that's been used in the thread). Say the game has 4 races with different stats. It's basically choosing what look and stat combo you want for your paladin.
The race doesn't mean much. It boils down to a stat choice and there will always be a single best stat choice which leaves you hoping you like what that looks like. It's a one dimensional approach but it's easier to balance and less costly to implement.
In a more in depth racial and character profession system each race would have strengths and weaknesses to any profession they take up. Say your elf does want to be a paladin. Their strengths might not best suit that at outset so they would be at a disadvantage, but there could be other racial qualities that would add to the class. Maybe they level slower but have better health, as an example tradeoff.
We used to do the latter system in table top AD&D and Rolemaster. The DM would adjust xp curves (or xp gained) and other things that made sense within the context of the choice and campaign.
I never picked a race based on it having a stat advantage for the class I want to play. In most games and probably this one also, the minor stat advantage does not matter once you level up a bit. I think most people are getting bent out of shape over the Paladin race choices and lack of an elf cleric. Probably the paladin issue is an elf one also. I would prefer both those choices be available but it is the developers choice.
That makes races just a cosmetic then. That's what all games do, non-effective racial differences. That relegates races to a suit a clothes you wear. If choices are arbitrary and non-effective then why restrict them? If the team has as much money as people in the know claim they do then they shouldn't be skimping on variety. It can't be both ways. If it's just because "EQ did it" then just be honest and say, we're remaking EQ (which the team has strongly denied). If we're not remaking EQ then why not think outside the box a little.
Well not exactly, in EQ I picked a race based on lore and starting area. I not sure if this game is going to have different starting areas like EQ did? It was not cosmetic in my mind. Perhaps the choice is that way for you but not for everyone. I am sure for a lot of these race/class restrictions that they have lore reasons for them. Do you expect them to redo all that? People will complain when they pick a gimped race for a class. This will create bad press and forum posts all over the place complaining about this. They will of course be expected to fix this. I am satisfied with the plan they have for the game and would prefer that they stick to it and spend the time having a polish and stable game with lots of content. I don't want to see the changes and features creep that IMO doomed Vanguard.
A lot of people here seem to regard race as a suit of clothes their avatar wears. Why should there be class restrictions on my wearing green trousers? But if you are actually wanting to play a Role Playing Game a character's race is a fundamental part of their nature and should have a large effect on what classes they could become.
A lot of people do seem to think of race as a suit their avatars wear. On the other hand, a lot of people pretend like it's should be impossible for certain races to try and be something other what a developer decides it should be. In my opinion, give the races certain leanings that makes sense with their lore and allow the players the power to decide what makes sense. And allow the players to try and find ways to make things make sense.
This all really depends on what kind of game it wants to be. Is it going to be distilled into min/max style raiding? Then you might as well restrict classes so that less people can make mistakes. If it's going to have depth, then give the races what makes sense lore wise and give classes what makes sense lore wise and then give the players agency.
Having hard race / class restrictions does treat races as a suit of clothes. Say you want your character to be a paladin (since that's been used in the thread). Say the game has 4 races with different stats. It's basically choosing what look and stat combo you want for your paladin.
The race doesn't mean much. It boils down to a stat choice and there will always be a single best stat choice which leaves you hoping you like what that looks like. It's a one dimensional approach but it's easier to balance and less costly to implement.
In a more in depth racial and character profession system each race would have strengths and weaknesses to any profession they take up. Say your elf does want to be a paladin. Their strengths might not best suit that at outset so they would be at a disadvantage, but there could be other racial qualities that would add to the class. Maybe they level slower but have better health, as an example tradeoff.
We used to do the latter system in table top AD&D and Rolemaster. The DM would adjust xp curves (or xp gained) and other things that made sense within the context of the choice and campaign.
I never picked a race based on it having a stat advantage for the class I want to play. In most games and probably this one also, the minor stat advantage does not matter once you level up a bit. I think most people are getting bent out of shape over the Paladin race choices and lack of an elf cleric. Probably the paladin issue is an elf one also. I would prefer both those choices be available but it is the developers choice.
That makes races just a cosmetic then. That's what all games do, non-effective racial differences. That relegates races to a suit a clothes you wear. If choices are arbitrary and non-effective then why restrict them? If the team has as much money as people in the know claim they do then they shouldn't be skimping on variety. It can't be both ways. If it's just because "EQ did it" then just be honest and say, we're remaking EQ (which the team has strongly denied). If we're not remaking EQ then why not think outside the box a little.
It's things like this, this 'EQ did it' mentality, plus the evidence of the streams that look like nothing more than the basic 1999 EQ model, make me leery about Pantheon aiming no higher than an 'EQ with modern graphics', despite the website and fervent backers claims. That's what I'm afraid we're going to get, and that isn't a step forward for the genre. That would be a step backwards.
And where are all these mmo's that claim to be a step forward, you will be surprised how many people would like like to step back. If stepping forward give me the same rubbish I've seen over the last ten years then I'll take the latter.
two things first of all making how classes play differ based on race is a bad idea as it will inevitably lead to min/maxxers declare, no you cannot bring your halfling warrior along as it is a 'bad combo/choice' we are only accepting Ogre warriors here. you know that will hapen..
Concerning this first idea. The idea that people will min/max based on class/race combinations. Yes, they will. And that alleviates a lot of the concern about having most ogres be mages (or whatever you think ogres shouldn't be). With strong race differences and strong class differences, you end up with a system where the player has to make choices based on what works.
I find this thread strange in this specific way. I think there is a table:
RI
RU
CI
Min/maxing based on race/class.
Min/maxing based on class.
CU
Mn/maxing based on race.
Min/maxing not based on race or class.
RI is race important. RU is race unimportant. CI is class important. CU is class unimportant.
Almost everyone lies in three categories. RICI, RUCI and RICU. Most people, at least for this game, believe that RUCU is not right for this game. It makes sense for something like Counterstrike, but for an MMORPG, it just has no place.
I think very few people lie in RICU. I am not one of those people and I haven't seen anybody really fight for that idea.
But then there seems to be competition between RICI and RUCI. I'm a RICI personally and there are others that agree with me. But others are RUCI people that believe classes should be restricted based on race for lore reasons.
And I think there is potentially a place for that. But these sort of broad "no ogres can be mages" type of things just make the game less interesting in my opinion. Dullahan, perhaps the one with the most knowledge about this game (and perhaps an overly optimistic view of this game), is even ok with races "switching over."
In the end, no matter what, min/maxing will be a part of a progression system with lots of customization no matter where you put that system. If you don't allow strong racial differences and restrict race/class combinations, it is just a skin. Which is fine, but less interesting. If you allow strong racial differences and restrict class/race, then your endeavor to create racial differences was pointless. If you have strong race differences and allow people to choose their class freely, you will have something that is difficult to balance, but has the potential to be far more interesting. At least in my opinion.
You could, on the other hand, not have humans at all.
Even if it personally wouldnt bother me if humans would be left out - I think thats a really bad idea.
More people like playing human than any other race. I dont know about EQ, but in Vanguard humans have been the most popular race choice.
There is thus really no good reason for Mystical Realms to exclude them, unless they fancy annoying quite a lot of their fans.
Please quote me in full instead of quote mining. What I said was:
"You could, on the other hand, not have humans at all. Just add another race or two with their own racial characteristics and limited class choices. You could even call them barbarians and townsfolk and have them look very much like humans."
Or in other words (and without the tongue in cheek) divide the humans into two races with slightly different appearances. Each sub-race would have a limited class range and slightly different racial characteristics.
The objective being that no (sub-)race would have every class available. This was in response to someone criticizing the usual case that humans have two wide a class choice when compared to non-human races.
A lot of people here seem to regard race as a suit of clothes their avatar wears. Why should there be class restrictions on my wearing green trousers? But if you are actually wanting to play a Role Playing Game a character's race is a fundamental part of their nature and should have a large effect on what classes they could become.
A lot of people do seem to think of race as a suit their avatars wear. On the other hand, a lot of people pretend like it's should be impossible for certain races to try and be something other what a developer decides it should be. In my opinion, give the races certain leanings that makes sense with their lore and allow the players the power to decide what makes sense. And allow the players to try and find ways to make things make sense.
This all really depends on what kind of game it wants to be. Is it going to be distilled into min/max style raiding? Then you might as well restrict classes so that less people can make mistakes. If it's going to have depth, then give the races what makes sense lore wise and give classes what makes sense lore wise and then give the players agency.
Having hard race / class restrictions does treat races as a suit of clothes. Say you want your character to be a paladin (since that's been used in the thread). Say the game has 4 races with different stats. It's basically choosing what look and stat combo you want for your paladin.
The race doesn't mean much. It boils down to a stat choice and there will always be a single best stat choice which leaves you hoping you like what that looks like. It's a one dimensional approach but it's easier to balance and less costly to implement.
In a more in depth racial and character profession system each race would have strengths and weaknesses to any profession they take up. Say your elf does want to be a paladin. Their strengths might not best suit that at outset so they would be at a disadvantage, but there could be other racial qualities that would add to the class. Maybe they level slower but have better health, as an example tradeoff.
We used to do the latter system in table top AD&D and Rolemaster. The DM would adjust xp curves (or xp gained) and other things that made sense within the context of the choice and campaign.
I never picked a race based on it having a stat advantage for the class I want to play. In most games and probably this one also, the minor stat advantage does not matter once you level up a bit. I think most people are getting bent out of shape over the Paladin race choices and lack of an elf cleric. Probably the paladin issue is an elf one also. I would prefer both those choices be available but it is the developers choice.
A solution to this is to make the stat advantage/disadvantage a % change on the final stat after modifications for level and equipment.
As for elves, there used to be a distinction in some games between wood elves and high elves. Based on my own perception of these two types of elf, wood elves would not have paladins or clerics. High elves might have depending on the specific lore.
I have mixed feelings regarding these restrictions. I like the restrictions but I've also been in a few scenarios where the only class I'm interested in is unavailable to the only race that I'm interested in. It sucks, and it sucks enough to make me not play the game.
Lore based restrictions make sense but only if they actually make sense. By that I mean, are the restrictions truly tied to the race or are they actually tied to something else, like the culture?
Elves can't be clerics because they don't worship the gods? What about elves that grow up with a human family, outside of Elven influence?
Halflings can't be warriors? What is stopping them from picking up a short sword and getting combat training? Stature doesn't make a sword any less sharp and using a short sword doesn't make you a rogue.
Orcs can't be the Mystical Elven Archer class because they aren't elven? Even the smartest Ogre is too stupid to be a wizard? That actually makes sense. I think what bothers people is when the game arbitrarily restricts their choices when the restrictions don't make sense to them.
two things first of all making how classes play differ based on race is a bad idea as it will inevitably lead to min/maxxers declare, no you cannot bring your halfling warrior along as it is a 'bad combo/choice' we are only accepting Ogre warriors here. you know that will hapen..
Concerning this first idea. The idea that people will min/max based on class/race combinations. Yes, they will. And that alleviates a lot of the concern about having most ogres be mages (or whatever you think ogres shouldn't be). With strong race differences and strong class differences, you end up with a system where the player has to make choices based on what works.
I find this thread strange in this specific way. I think there is a table:
RI
RU
CI
Min/maxing based on race/class.
Min/maxing based on class.
CU
Mn/maxing based on race.
Min/maxing not based on race or class.
RI is race important. RU is race unimportant. CI is class important. CU is class unimportant.
Almost everyone lies in three categories. RICI, RUCI and RICU. Most people, at least for this game, believe that RUCU is not right for this game. It makes sense for something like Counterstrike, but for an MMORPG, it just has no place.
I think very few people lie in RICU. I am not one of those people and I haven't seen anybody really fight for that idea.
But then there seems to be competition between RICI and RUCI. I'm a RICI personally and there are others that agree with me. But others are RUCI people that believe classes should be restricted based on race for lore reasons.
And I think there is potentially a place for that. But these sort of broad "no ogres can be mages" type of things just make the game less interesting in my opinion. Dullahan, perhaps the one with the most knowledge about this game (and perhaps an overly optimistic view of this game), is even ok with races "switching over."
In the end, no matter what, min/maxing will be a part of a progression system with lots of customization no matter where you put that system. If you don't allow strong racial differences and restrict race/class combinations, it is just a skin. Which is fine, but less interesting. If you allow strong racial differences and restrict class/race, then your endeavor to create racial differences was pointless. If you have strong race differences and allow people to choose their class freely, you will have something that is difficult to balance, but has the potential to be far more interesting. At least in my opinion.
Some people are not into min/max at all. As far as race/class restrictions, yes you could do it by gimping some races with some classes such that they are not viable combinations. This would leave new people who assume well they said a ogre could be a wizard that such a combination is viable. The other way to do is based on Lore. As this is a RPG some people will be interested in the lore. Without Lore why bother even having more than one race. It appears they are basing the race/class combinations on lore which for a RPG is an acceptable way to do it. The switching over that was mentioned before would need to be based on lore such as in EQ2 an evil SK could switch to good and become a paladin. And it would need to be extremely difficult. I not sure if the lore in pantheon supports something like that. But to do it with a lore reason would be reasonable but to just allow people to switch from one class to another doing just a quest would be extremely lame.
It's things like this, this 'EQ did it' mentality, plus the evidence of the streams that look like nothing more than the basic 1999 EQ model, make me leery about Pantheon aiming no higher than an 'EQ with modern graphics', despite the website and fervent backers claims. That's what I'm afraid we're going to get, and that isn't a step forward for the genre. That would be a step backwards.
And where are all these mmo's that claim to be a step forward, you will be surprised how many people would like like to step back. If stepping forward give me the same rubbish I've seen over the last ten years then I'll take the latter.
Having spent lots of time with the Uthgard server lately, I can agree that in some mechanics, I would enjoy a step back. However, we must have pinpoint accuracy when we consider which mechanics to "rollback." While I enjoy myself in Uthgard, more intuitive UI and combat feedback would be appreciated. I don't wish for the kind of statistical feedback that modding WoW's UI can give you, but general indications that would be something noticeable in real life (an opponent/NPC looking overly winded when they've exhausted their endurance/cooldowns, as an example) are definite improvements in my mind.
I think it truly is a fine line to walk, but I believe there's a very solid playerbase that will be super dedicated to your game if you strike a good balance. See Pillars of Eternity for a singleplayer example!
A solution to this is to make the stat advantage/disadvantage a % change on the final stat after modifications for level and equipment.
As for elves, there used to be a distinction in some games between wood elves and high elves. Based on my own perception of these two types of elf, wood elves would not have paladins or clerics. High elves might have depending on the specific lore.
I have to just say this. The adherence to tradition from... maybe 50 years ago?... is so real when I read your posts. It's like saying Asians are good at math and Africans are good at athletics. When in reality, while there may be tendencies towards those things, there are a vast array of things that every individual, no matter where they come from, or what their race, are good at.
How can you possibly have a perception about a fantasy race call wood elves and then box them out of a class like paladin? Why has that been ingrained into you so much? Why is it so important that races follow their predefined role? Why is it impossible for a wood elf to believe in a God other than their traditional one? There are Muslims that were born Christian and vice versa. Why is it that we MUST make restictions based on religion.
In some cases I can actually see a point there. Small religions (or cults) may be very selective about their membership. Ad it can be based on race. It can be based on anything, really. But those are rare exceptions, generally based on intolerant ideas. And I actually think it would be interesting to see something like that happen in a game. But why everyone? Why must every race be restricted to a religion or idealism based on "lore." Why does this kind of simpleminded lore attract people so much?
A solution to this is to make the stat advantage/disadvantage a % change on the final stat after modifications for level and equipment.
As for elves, there used to be a distinction in some games between wood elves and high elves. Based on my own perception of these two types of elf, wood elves would not have paladins or clerics. High elves might have depending on the specific lore.
I have to just say this. The adherence to tradition from... maybe 50 years ago?... is so real when I read your posts. It's like saying Asians are good at math and Africans are good at athletics. When in reality, while there may be tendencies towards those things, there are a vast array of things that every individual, no matter where they come from, or what their race, are good at.
How can you possibly have a perception about a fantasy race call wood elves and then box them out of a class like paladin? Why has that been ingrained into you so much? Why is it so important that races follow their predefined role? Why is it impossible for a wood elf to believe in a God other than their traditional one? There are Muslims that were born Christian and vice versa. Why is it that we MUST make restictions based on religion.
In some cases I can actually see a point there. Small religions (or cults) may be very selective about their membership. Ad it can be based on race. It can be based on anything, really. But those are rare exceptions, generally based on intolerant ideas. And I actually think it would be interesting to see something like that happen in a game. But why everyone? Why must every race be restricted to a religion or idealism based on "lore." Why does this kind of simpleminded lore attract people so much?
Well that's just the thing. This is the world/universe surrounding Terminus, not planet earth. If you read the history/lore section on the website (Age of Seclusion, Chaos, and then the current timeline the game takes place which is the Frail Age), you will see races are JUST now gaining a footing after years of history you can read about. So in THIS world, no, the elves in this instance would have had NO desire to seek out other religions/races at this point. Again, reading the lore will clear this up. This is a separate universe, their own world of fantasy, where they're trying to go in a new direction. Everquest 2 had quests later down the road that let you betray your race, and become a class outside of your race's initial capability, so who knows; worst case maybe that could be a future possibility. Brad and Kilsin did point out they specifically left options open for future expansion upon the races, classes, lore etc.
A solution to this is to make the stat advantage/disadvantage a % change on the final stat after modifications for level and equipment.
As for elves, there used to be a distinction in some games between wood elves and high elves. Based on my own perception of these two types of elf, wood elves would not have paladins or clerics. High elves might have depending on the specific lore.
I have to just say this. The adherence to tradition from... maybe 50 years ago?... is so real when I read your posts. It's like saying Asians are good at math and Africans are good at athletics. When in reality, while there may be tendencies towards those things, there are a vast array of things that every individual, no matter where they come from, or what their race, are good at.
How can you possibly have a perception about a fantasy race call wood elves and then box them out of a class like paladin? Why has that been ingrained into you so much? Why is it so important that races follow their predefined role? Why is it impossible for a wood elf to believe in a God other than their traditional one? There are Muslims that were born Christian and vice versa. Why is it that we MUST make restictions based on religion.
In some cases I can actually see a point there. Small religions (or cults) may be very selective about their membership. Ad it can be based on race. It can be based on anything, really. But those are rare exceptions, generally based on intolerant ideas. And I actually think it would be interesting to see something like that happen in a game. But why everyone? Why must every race be restricted to a religion or idealism based on "lore." Why does this kind of simpleminded lore attract people so much?
Well everyone on earth is human so if the game only had humans then the class/race thing would not be a issue. This post is like you are assuming that ogres are just big ugly humans. Perhaps their lore is such that they would never think about being a wizard or their minds are such that they could never learn to be one. As far as the in game gods go, what is important is not rather the wood elf wishes to worship a non-traditional one but rather the lore allows the non-traditional god to accept the wood elf.
A solution to this is to make the stat advantage/disadvantage a % change on the final stat after modifications for level and equipment.
As for elves, there used to be a distinction in some games between wood elves and high elves. Based on my own perception of these two types of elf, wood elves would not have paladins or clerics. High elves might have depending on the specific lore.
I have to just say this. The adherence to tradition from... maybe 50 years ago?... is so real when I read your posts. It's like saying Asians are good at math and Africans are good at athletics. When in reality, while there may be tendencies towards those things, there are a vast array of things that every individual, no matter where they come from, or what their race, are good at.
How can you possibly have a perception about a fantasy race call wood elves and then box them out of a class like paladin? Why has that been ingrained into you so much? Why is it so important that races follow their predefined role? Why is it impossible for a wood elf to believe in a God other than their traditional one? There are Muslims that were born Christian and vice versa. Why is it that we MUST make restictions based on religion.
In some cases I can actually see a point there. Small religions (or cults) may be very selective about their membership. Ad it can be based on race. It can be based on anything, really. But those are rare exceptions, generally based on intolerant ideas. And I actually think it would be interesting to see something like that happen in a game. But why everyone? Why must every race be restricted to a religion or idealism based on "lore." Why does this kind of simpleminded lore attract people so much?
Well everyone on earth is human so if the game only had humans then the class/race thing would not be a issue. This post is like you are assuming that ogres are just big ugly humans. Perhaps their lore is such that they would never think about being a wizard or their minds are such that they could never learn to be one. As far as the in game gods go, what is important is not rather the wood elf wishes to worship a non-traditional one but rather the lore allows the non-traditional god to accept the wood elf.
Honestly, if you want a true roleplaying game, you wouldn't choose anything about your character. The game should choose your sex, race, appearance, strengths, weaknesses and finally, your class. In fact, there is actually a survival game that has overwhelming popularity on STEAM that pretty much does exactly that. This game has a 96% approval rating with over 7,000 reviews so far. So please, go take a look at RimWorld and how it's designed and it's intentions as a game, read some of the reviews and tell me how many people complain about that mechanic.
All it boils down to is personal preference. For those who say such a game design is lazy, whether the developers base it off lore or not. Wouldn't it be just as lazy for players who are so adamant about THEIR choices in a character, that they refuse to roleplay something outside their proverbial comfort zone?
I would be ok with a MMORPG that did that as long as what classes it created were controlled so that the RNG could not go crazy and end up with server full of warriors. Also you know people would kept generating new characters and deleting them until they got what they wanted anyway. Unless the game did not allow a character to be deleted. Now I have to go look at RimWorld
Comments
""The DM would adjust xp curves (or xp gained) and other things that made sense within the context of the choice and campaign""
Sounds very much like you are expecting an intimate relationship with a personal DM to me. Just not possible in a MMORPG.
Then there is the idea of an elf paladin, great if it is one elf paladin or even a few. Multiply that out to thousands and you know you are going to get all the forum angst about ' why is my elf paladin nerfed ', demands to break lore and modify or dilute racial characteristics.
That's my argument, you want personal exceptions appropriate in a pen and paper game and impossible in an MMORPG.
You don't have to agree, and probably won't. But since you want me to reflect on your post perhaps you should too.
More people like playing human than any other race. I dont know about EQ, but in Vanguard humans have been the most popular race choice.
There is thus really no good reason for Mystical Realms to exclude them, unless they fancy annoying quite a lot of their fans.
That is much more interesting and potentially much more varied. Also, it's much more difficult to balance. I'm not sure what kind of game this wants to be because there is a certain amount of vagueness when it comes to things like balance, but at least in my opinion, class restrictions based on race because of some lore reason should be used sparingly.
Brad said they are aiming for what "makes sense" so i am going to trust him until i see otherwise.
I love and really need to see depth in my games and racial is a great way to start.
To put it in perspective,i would rather have pre rendered characters with George Jetson hair do's with lots of statistical depth than a pile of sliders to fiddle with my hair color and tattoos.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
second I am sure that, while it is a little bit buried in the site somewhere, or maybe it was the forums somewhere I read recently, they said 'as they are building a brand new world from scratch here you can leave your preconceptions from D&D/WOW etc at the door, the example the threw out was this.. Ogre Druids is something they are seriously considering....
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I am sure for a lot of these race/class restrictions that they have lore reasons for them. Do you expect them to redo all that?
People will complain when they pick a gimped race for a class. This will create bad press and forum posts all over the place complaining about this. They will of course be expected to fix this.
I am satisfied with the plan they have for the game and would prefer that they stick to it and spend the time having a polish and stable game with lots of content.
I don't want to see the changes and features creep that IMO doomed Vanguard.
And where are all these mmo's that claim to be a step forward, you will be surprised how many people would like like to step back. If stepping forward give me the same rubbish I've seen over the last ten years then I'll take the latter.
I find this thread strange in this specific way. I think there is a table:
RI is race important.
RU is race unimportant.
CI is class important.
CU is class unimportant.
Almost everyone lies in three categories. RICI, RUCI and RICU. Most people, at least for this game, believe that RUCU is not right for this game. It makes sense for something like Counterstrike, but for an MMORPG, it just has no place.
I think very few people lie in RICU. I am not one of those people and I haven't seen anybody really fight for that idea.
But then there seems to be competition between RICI and RUCI. I'm a RICI personally and there are others that agree with me. But others are RUCI people that believe classes should be restricted based on race for lore reasons.
And I think there is potentially a place for that. But these sort of broad "no ogres can be mages" type of things just make the game less interesting in my opinion. Dullahan, perhaps the one with the most knowledge about this game (and perhaps an overly optimistic view of this game), is even ok with races "switching over."
In the end, no matter what, min/maxing will be a part of a progression system with lots of customization no matter where you put that system. If you don't allow strong racial differences and restrict race/class combinations, it is just a skin. Which is fine, but less interesting. If you allow strong racial differences and restrict class/race, then your endeavor to create racial differences was pointless. If you have strong race differences and allow people to choose their class freely, you will have something that is difficult to balance, but has the potential to be far more interesting. At least in my opinion.
What I said was:
"You could, on the other hand, not have humans at all. Just add another race or two with their own racial characteristics and limited class choices. You could even call them barbarians and townsfolk and have them look very much like humans."
Or in other words (and without the tongue in cheek) divide the humans into two races with slightly different appearances. Each sub-race would have a limited class range and slightly different racial characteristics.
The objective being that no (sub-)race would have every class available. This was in response to someone criticizing the usual case that humans have two wide a class choice when compared to non-human races.
As for elves, there used to be a distinction in some games between wood elves and high elves. Based on my own perception of these two types of elf, wood elves would not have paladins or clerics. High elves might have depending on the specific lore.
Lore based restrictions make sense but only if they actually make sense. By that I mean, are the restrictions truly tied to the race or are they actually tied to something else, like the culture?
Elves can't be clerics because they don't worship the gods? What about elves that grow up with a human family, outside of Elven influence?
Halflings can't be warriors? What is stopping them from picking up a short sword and getting combat training? Stature doesn't make a sword any less sharp and using a short sword doesn't make you a rogue.
Orcs can't be the Mystical Elven Archer class because they aren't elven? Even the smartest Ogre is too stupid to be a wizard? That actually makes sense. I think what bothers people is when the game arbitrarily restricts their choices when the restrictions don't make sense to them.
As far as race/class restrictions, yes you could do it by gimping some races with some classes such that they are not viable combinations. This would leave new people who assume well they said a ogre could be a wizard that such a combination is viable.
The other way to do is based on Lore. As this is a RPG some people will be interested in the lore. Without Lore why bother even having more than one race. It appears they are basing the race/class combinations on lore which for a RPG is an acceptable way to do it.
The switching over that was mentioned before would need to be based on lore such as in EQ2 an evil SK could switch to good and become a paladin. And it would need to be extremely difficult. I not sure if the lore in pantheon supports something like that. But to do it with a lore reason would be reasonable but to just allow people to switch from one class to another doing just a quest would be extremely lame.
I think it truly is a fine line to walk, but I believe there's a very solid playerbase that will be super dedicated to your game if you strike a good balance. See Pillars of Eternity for a singleplayer example!
How can you possibly have a perception about a fantasy race call wood elves and then box them out of a class like paladin? Why has that been ingrained into you so much? Why is it so important that races follow their predefined role? Why is it impossible for a wood elf to believe in a God other than their traditional one? There are Muslims that were born Christian and vice versa. Why is it that we MUST make restictions based on religion.
In some cases I can actually see a point there. Small religions (or cults) may be very selective about their membership. Ad it can be based on race. It can be based on anything, really. But those are rare exceptions, generally based on intolerant ideas. And I actually think it would be interesting to see something like that happen in a game. But why everyone? Why must every race be restricted to a religion or idealism based on "lore." Why does this kind of simpleminded lore attract people so much?
As far as the in game gods go, what is important is not rather the wood elf wishes to worship a non-traditional one but rather the lore allows the non-traditional god to accept the wood elf.
Now I have to go look at RimWorld