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Racial Class Restrictions

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  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 10,610
    I'm a solo player.I wish I could consider this game,but they are designing this game for a type of player that is not me.
      Their is solo content but this game is a break from the current crap storm of solo content MMOs. You will find yourself having to socialize. Sorry :/ try the new MMO Ashes, it's shinny and new. 
  • KxelemKxelem Member UncommonPosts: 27
    I'm a solo player.I wish I could consider this game,but they are designing this game for a type of player that is not me.
    You can always use the free trial they are offering, get a feel of the game.  It will have solo content, the game will just be much more enjoyable in a group setting.  I would definitely give it a go :) 
  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,415
    I really wish they would lock threads that are more than 6 months old. Tired of this dead thread resurrection stuff.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    Hrimnir said:
    I really wish they would lock threads that are more than 6 months old. Tired of this dead thread resurrection stuff.
    In all fairness, we just got new information on the intended race class combinations that did not previously exist. That means this old topic is once again worth discussing!


  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 16,947
    I like race and sex restrictions.  I also like imbalanced classes.  I want uniqueness over parity.

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

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    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

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  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,415
    edited February 2017
    Dullahan said:
    Hrimnir said:
    I really wish they would lock threads that are more than 6 months old. Tired of this dead thread resurrection stuff.
    In all fairness, we just got new information on the intended race class combinations that did not previously exist. That means this old topic is once again worth discussing!

    Fair enough ;-)

    Edit: My biggest concern with dead thread resurrections is that a lot of people simply read the titles, don't read all the posts. Or they will read the title and maybe the first few posts, but not the latest, etc etc.

    I just feel like it creates confusion where there is no need to do so.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    Hrimnir said:
    Dullahan said:
    Hrimnir said:
    I really wish they would lock threads that are more than 6 months old. Tired of this dead thread resurrection stuff.
    In all fairness, we just got new information on the intended race class combinations that did not previously exist. That means this old topic is once again worth discussing!

    Fair enough ;-)

    Edit: My biggest concern with dead thread resurrections is that a lot of people simply read the titles, don't read all the posts. Or they will read the title and maybe the first few posts, but not the latest, etc etc.

    I just feel like it creates confusion where there is no need to do so.

    In all fairness, if new information comes to light isn't it better to start a new thread. Like 'New information on racial class restrictions in Pantheon' and avoid the confusion?
  • esc-joconnoresc-joconnor Member RarePosts: 1,097
    Sinist said:
    Actually, they are game play elements that provide depth in character development and play. Such is the cornerstone of role playing games. 
    In other words:
    (a) We want you to roleplay
    (b) To encourage that, we limit your possibilities to do so




    You also can't have a machine gun, or do Kamehameha attacks, or have a sword that shoots tanks. 
    I know the character is the hero and there is magic, so anything is possible, but sorry.
  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,415
    Hrimnir said:
    Dullahan said:
    Hrimnir said:
    I really wish they would lock threads that are more than 6 months old. Tired of this dead thread resurrection stuff.
    In all fairness, we just got new information on the intended race class combinations that did not previously exist. That means this old topic is once again worth discussing!

    Fair enough ;-)

    Edit: My biggest concern with dead thread resurrections is that a lot of people simply read the titles, don't read all the posts. Or they will read the title and maybe the first few posts, but not the latest, etc etc.

    I just feel like it creates confusion where there is no need to do so.

    In all fairness, if new information comes to light isn't it better to start a new thread. Like 'New information on racial class restrictions in Pantheon' and avoid the confusion?
    That's my entire point, which is why i would like this forum to automatically lock inactive threads after a certain amount of time

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • gipfeligipfeli Member UncommonPosts: 98
    Albatroes said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    I have to wonder about people that complain about race or sex specific classes. Do any of you even know what lore is? Have you read any fantasy books? Do you know what it means to role play? Hell, there's even racial restrictions in WoW, albeit fewer and fewer with each new expansion, but there are still some. As long as I can remember, Dwarven races were against magic, yet here we are, looking at a game that is doing the exact opposite by given Dwarves access to magic.

    I have to agree though, that a game without restrictions can be just as boring as a game with restrictions. Because rules or a lack of do not determine the quality of the game. I find a lot of MMOs boring simply because of asshole griefers who have no concept of immersion. That is far more detrimental to a game's entertainment value then whether or not I can play a Drow princess who was raised in a church and became a Paladin. Learn to be creative. All I see are people with very limited forms of imagination.
    Race locking is fine. Gender locking is just lazy and never a good "lore" reason behind it. Not saying this game will have gender locked classes but games that go that route tend to do it because its just cheaper to do it (looking at you BDO and TERA).
    What about male valkyires?? Or banshee' ?

    Sometimes gender lock is just fine (or needed!).

    I agree though that a berserker can also be female (looking at you ex-girlfriend!)
  • krulerkruler Member UncommonPosts: 589
    SOooooo gonna be awhile till I get to roll a Skar necro, lets face it, its an iksar, rearrange letters and i-skar yeah that's right, mind blown.....(sarcasm)

    See Brad got is bloody rangers in, he never liked Necro's that much, ;-)

  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,030
    edited February 2017
    Nanfoodle said:
    Amathe said:
    The design challenge is this. If you allow all classes to play all races, but then give some races attributes where almost everyone will play that race/class combination (because the combination is clearly superior), then the goal of promoting diversity is largely defeated. But if, to avoid that, you give all races essentially the same stats so you can effectively play every class, the goal of having racial diversity is defeated. 
      Someone gets it. 
    2 possible Paladin races

    such diverse

    much wow
    Post edited by Kajidourden on
  • JurisDictumJurisDictum Member UncommonPosts: 31
    kruler said:
    SOooooo gonna be awhile till I get to roll a Skar necro, lets face it, its an iksar, rearrange letters and i-skar yeah that's right, mind blown.....(sarcasm)

    See Brad got is bloody rangers in, he never liked Necro's that much, ;-)
    I disagree. Iksar were cool-looking lizardmen. Skar are some screwed up nightmarish-looking creature ill never touch. It looks like something from Hellraiser.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    My random pk char is totally going to be skar. Going to strike terror into the hearts of traditional fantasy races.


  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 5,085
    Nanfoodle said:
    Amathe said:
    The design challenge is this. If you allow all classes to play all races, but then give some races attributes where almost everyone will play that race/class combination (because the combination is clearly superior), then the goal of promoting diversity is largely defeated. But if, to avoid that, you give all races essentially the same stats so you can effectively play every class, the goal of having racial diversity is defeated. 
      Someone gets it. 
    Err ... just because you two agree happen to agree doesnt mean you're right. Which in this case - you arent.

    - What you describe is the effect of poor race design. Which for example Vanguard already did not have, and I dont see why Pantheon should have it.

    - Races should be mixed bags. They should be flavor. You dont get all out better at something, you get advantages and disadvantages, no matter what kind of job it is. For example, in Vanguard stats usually had diminishing returns and hard caps anyway. So the +2 that Lesser Giant tanks could have over human tanks ? Sure, a (small) advantage during normal adventuring when it came to damage and aggro. The kind of difference I would call flavor and would prefer to have. But worthless during raids, since humans could already cap there, too.

    - Plus EQ and Vanguard are gear heavy games anyway. Not as extreme as WoW, but good gear makes all the difference.

    - Plus of course playing the class was important, too. I held aggro against better equipped Paladins on my Dread Knight, which was supposed to be the worst class in respect to aggro generation. Why ? Because I had carefully studied my class.

    - Also, at least in Vanguard Humans have been the clearly superior choice. Because they had the flexibility with stats, and all classes had more than one important stat anyway. Heck, Qaliathari Humans (Arabs) even got the strongest racial ability in the game.

    - Very likely Pantheon will be the same, humans will again be the strongest pick ... and guess what race gets all the classes.

    - The only exception in Vanguard was maybe tanks and Constitution. IIRC there wasnt even diminishing returns or a hard cap for Constitution. So yeah, in that respect Dwarf was the superior choice for tank. However the returns from Constitution have been quite mediocre. And there was no way I would play dwarf just because they get the big Con bonus. Because, well, dwarves in Vanguard have been ugly. Same goes for Gnome and Orc. Not for goblin, though, I wouldnt call them pretty but they could look very stylish. While dwarves and gnomes looked all out ugly and orcs looked like pigs. Also the animal races have been intolerable, they had a human body but an animal head. More like egyptian deities than like believable sentient races. Judging from what I've seen in Vanguard, many other tank players felt the same. Tanks came in all kinds of races, even clearly poor choices like Darkelf.



    I'm a solo player.I wish I could consider this game,but they are designing this game for a type of player that is not me.
    Why, thats correct. Now please be nice and either find a game that suits you better, or try Pantheon as something thats new for you. And dont try to change Pantheon to the type of game you prefer, because that would kill the game for others. Most other games are already made for you.

    In general I expect Pantheon to be much like Vanguard in this respect. There will be soloing content, but it will be quite boring. The dungeons, quests etc will all be group content. Some classes will be better at soloing than others and will try easier group content solo. Which will be possible, but you'll probably progress only very slowly and die a lot. Harder group content will definitely be impossible to solo.

    In Vanguard, in the late game, a Dread Knight managed to solo one of the easiest raid bosses. The DK of course was topgeared and maxlevel 55, while the raid boss was made for the old maxlevel 50.




    Kajidourden said:
    2 possible Paladin races
    such diverse
    Haha yeah. AD&D had only one (human).




    Dullahan said:
    My random pk char is totally going to be skar. Going to strike terror into the hearts of traditional fantasy races.
    Well then you better hope there will be PvP servers, because this is mostly a PvE game.

  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,545
    The diversity gets even worse when you remove Necro and Bard from the list (since those classes won't be out at launch)
  • AmsaiAmsai Member UncommonPosts: 299
    They said Bard and Necro soon after launch if not by launch. Im not expecting them by launch, but I also dont think we will have to wait  for the first expansion.

    @Adamantine

    They have said that the primary focus is PvE. However, they also plan on having at least 3 server rule sets. Those being PvE, PvP, and RP. There might be more variations. And we might not have the other server rule sets by launch, but it is something they want to do.


  • krulerkruler Member UncommonPosts: 589
    edited February 2017
    kruler said:
    SOooooo gonna be awhile till I get to roll a Skar necro, lets face it, its an iksar, rearrange letters and i-skar yeah that's right, mind blown.....(sarcasm)

    See Brad got is bloody rangers in, he never liked Necro's that much, ;-)
    I disagree. Iksar were cool-looking lizardmen. Skar are some screwed up nightmarish-looking creature ill never touch. It looks like something from Hellraiser.

    You do understand the concept of sarcasm and its use, the iksar thing was a joke because of the obvious letter thing, I know I know sarcasm is sometimes a subtle form of humour but not everything is literal, big time when someone writes "SARCASM" after it for the hard off reading.   ;-)

  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 5,085
    Amsai said:
    They have said that the primary focus is PvE. However, they also plan on having at least 3 server rule sets. [...]
    That all depends upon how successful Pantheon will be.




  • ZuljanZuljan Member UncommonPosts: 123
    Amsai said:
    They have said that the primary focus is PvE. However, they also plan on having at least 3 server rule sets. [...]
    That all depends upon how successful Pantheon will be.




    No, they explicitly said they will have 3 at launch.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    There will at least be a PvP server at launch.


  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 10,610
    Nanfoodle said:
    Amathe said:
    The design challenge is this. If you allow all classes to play all races, but then give some races attributes where almost everyone will play that race/class combination (because the combination is clearly superior), then the goal of promoting diversity is largely defeated. But if, to avoid that, you give all races essentially the same stats so you can effectively play every class, the goal of having racial diversity is defeated. 
      Someone gets it. 
    Err ... just because you two agree happen to agree doesnt mean you're right. Which in this case - you arent.

    - What you describe is the effect of poor race design. Which for example Vanguard already did not have, and I dont see why Pantheon should have it.

    - Races should be mixed bags. They should be flavor. You dont get all out better at something, you get advantages and disadvantages, no matter what kind of job it is. For example, in Vanguard stats usually had diminishing returns and hard caps anyway. So the +2 that Lesser Giant tanks could have over human tanks ? Sure, a (small) advantage during normal adventuring when it came to damage and aggro. The kind of difference I would call flavor and would prefer to have. But worthless during raids, since humans could already cap there, too.

    - Plus EQ and Vanguard are gear heavy games anyway. Not as extreme as WoW, but good gear makes all the difference.

    - Plus of course playing the class was important, too. I held aggro against better equipped Paladins on my Dread Knight, which was supposed to be the worst class in respect to aggro generation. Why ? Because I had carefully studied my class.

    - Also, at least in Vanguard Humans have been the clearly superior choice. Because they had the flexibility with stats, and all classes had more than one important stat anyway. Heck, Qaliathari Humans (Arabs) even got the strongest racial ability in the game.

    - Very likely Pantheon will be the same, humans will again be the strongest pick ... and guess what race gets all the classes.

    - The only exception in Vanguard was maybe tanks and Constitution. IIRC there wasnt even diminishing returns or a hard cap for Constitution. So yeah, in that respect Dwarf was the superior choice for tank. However the returns from Constitution have been quite mediocre. And there was no way I would play dwarf just because they get the big Con bonus. Because, well, dwarves in Vanguard have been ugly. Same goes for Gnome and Orc. Not for goblin, though, I wouldnt call them pretty but they could look very stylish. While dwarves and gnomes looked all out ugly and orcs looked like pigs. Also the animal races have been intolerable, they had a human body but an animal head. More like egyptian deities than like believable sentient races. Judging from what I've seen in Vanguard, many other tank players felt the same. Tanks came in all kinds of races, even clearly poor choices like Darkelf.



    You may not agree but what matters most is VR development team agrees. Races will not just be flavors, they will impact your game play in a meaningful way. They talk about it in the last live stream. Races are not just cosmetic. 
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    edited February 2017
    We may be getting a little lost in semantics. I think flavors is a decent way to describe it. For instance, in EQ, Erudite shadowknight were generally regarded as pretty horrible in the early years. They naturally had very low strength and health, but massive natural intelligence. That provided an advantage for those who liked to focus more on spells. Especially at high levels, it made them pretty powerful with the ability to cast more lifetaps to restore their smaller health pool. It was also a lot easier to increase your health via tank gear than it was to increase your intelligence.

    Ideally, there will be enough abilities and playstyles built into each class that players can specialize to some degree before even factoring in hardcoded specializations. This is another reason why I think every stat should hold a significant strength for every class. It will naturally encourage different playstyles.

    For instance, if intelligence were part of the formula for parry, you could build two tanks entirely different. One may focus on brute strength and damage absorption, while another may focus on agility and intelligence to avoid getting hit altogether. That system would play together beautifully with a race/class combination and allow different class/race combos to still have some distinction from members of their class of another race.


  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 10,610
    Dullahan said:
    We may be getting a little lost in semantics. I think flavors is a decent way to describe it. For instance, in EQ, Erudite shadowknight were generally regarded as pretty horrible in the early years. They naturally had very low strength and health, but massive natural intelligence. That provided an advantage for those who liked to focus more on spells. Especially at high levels, it made them pretty powerful with the ability to cast more lifetaps to restore their smaller health pool. It was also a lot easier to increase your health via tank gear than it was to increase your intelligence.

    Ideally, there will be enough abilities and playstyles built into each class that players can specialize to some degree before even factoring in hardcoded specializations. This is another reason why I think every stat should hold a significant strength for every class. It will naturally encourage different playstyles.

    For instance, if intelligence were part of the formula for parry, you could build two tanks entirely different. One may focus on brute strength and damage absorption, while another may focus on agility and intelligence to avoid getting hit altogether. That system would play together beautifully with a race/class combination and allow different class/race combos to still have some distinction from members of their class of another race.
      Not what I would call just a flavor, that's a choice that impacted game play. Unlike most MMOs where its 99% cosmetic. This is impacted more so with their system of recycling characters. Getting a boost say on int from a boost on recycling a char and the race boost adds int boost and maybe other advantages to say spell casting. This could mean allot when you have a guild that's min maxed this system. Collectively that small boost married to the right race and class combos. We'll that could really stand out. Again decisions that have a meaningful impact on game play. 
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    I like when statistical differences are noticeable because it really allows players to define their own player and how they play.Too many games imo spend too much time on sliders and visuals when they mean nothing in the game.I would also like to see statistics that "make sense" giving that this team says that is their aim in systems for the game.
    Looking at their past games ,i would say they did a decent job as mentioned Erudite was high int,however i felt racial diminished a lot at higher levels and became way more about gear.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

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