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Armors in MMOs
Loke666
Member EpicPosts: 21,441
Some thoughts about armors in MMOs (and yes, it is long).
Most MMOs have 3 types of armors (and clothes), Leather/light, chain/medium and plate/heavy.
They work by adding a damage resistance/avoidance depending on class and level, basically a more advanced version of D&Ds Thac0 stats. They also usually give some attribute bonuses and can often have a magical attachement that brings further buffs.
The advantage of this system is basically that it works. There are however plenty of disadvantages and the system is clearly made by someone with close to zero clues how armors actually works.
First of all are there certain problems with the 3 classes, they are technologically from different periods and make no sense. Chain armor is actually heavier and harder to move in then an actual plate armor (measurements shows that a full chainmail restricts your movement with about 25% while a full plate by 17%. The source is the not so reliable Deadliest warrior show but it adds up with my own and my friends experience).
Chainmail is a Roman invention but the MMO version is pretty typical to Norman times and if you want a year every noble warrior was wearing one go to 1066 even if it was used for the next 250 years. The problem with chainmail is that it is clumsy, takes a lot of work to make and is easy to pierce with longbows and weapons made to pierce it. It is however excellent against the weapons used in 1066.
Platemail should not be confused with the tornament armor you see in many Hollywood movies, tornament armor is not made for actual battles but for sport and is far heavier, making getting up if you fall down really hard. An actual plate is far easier to move in then most people think and while 40 pounds might sound like a lot of weight having it all over your body makes it pretty agile. A lot of the weapons we see in MMOs are made from the same time (about 1325-1600). Comparing a chainmail to a plate is like comparing a Sopwith Camel with a F-22, they are very different in technologivcal level.
So for armor classes it would make sense to set a technological level for your game and use armors and weapons from that period. If you go for Norman times then you get leather, banded armor and chain. If you go for later then you get leather, scale mail and plate. Or you could move to a new technological level as you gain power/level like AoC does.
Over to mechanics. Usually you start with a handful hitpoints and go up to 50K or so while armors give you a kind of damage reduction. I suggest a different system where the majority of you hitpoints actually comes from your armor (a warrior might have 1000 HP and the rest of the 49K is her armors). This is far more logical and it would add a certain complexity to the game since you can have weapons that are better against certain types of armors.
Of course you would have to add magearmor spell to mages as well, or they would be far to easy to kill. Say that a max out character have 1K HP, the armor adds 19K for mage armor, 24K for leather, 34K for scale mail and 49K for plate.
It would matter a bit for healers (if you have healers of course) who will have 2 kinds of HP to heal, mending skills to fix up the armors and regular heals to get the HP up. And when you actually start taking real damage the game could add debuffs for you, getting physically hurt is actually bad for you after all. This system is at least pretty realistic, it makes armors more useful then they have been lately and I think it would be pretty fun as well.
What do you guys think? Are armors already good, in MMOs, would this system work or do you have your own ideas?
Comments
But I think one of the reasons why they partially tie HP / AC to your character's level in many games, is to make gear less relevant, it cushions the blow for undergeared characters.
If almost all your defensive stats come from your armor, you're going to run into issues with unbalanced content more quickly as a designer. Or you'd have to minimize differences in gear, but that won't make many people very happy, people like getting powerful items.
It is all about finding the right balance, I think that if a white crap plate at max level gives you 35K or so Hp and the best one gives you 49K you would probably be pretty right for PvE while in a PvP based game a crap one should be more around 45K .
And note that I ain't talking about any other defensive stats at all here, I rather have them on other stuff than the actual armors (like a ring of protection). Honestly is a massive amount of HP more than enough defensive stats in my world but having certain magical items like rings that gives you less damage from certain sources (like fire and so on) could add a bit to the game.
Not really, no. I was just thinking a bit if you could make MMOs more realistic without taking away the fun.
The closest thing I can think of is the high tech MDC armors in R.I.F.T.S (a pen and paper game).
The key is creating a system that supports a lot of dynamic play, and you sort of only scratch the surface there by mentioning certain weapons are better than others against certain armors. You couldn't really go too far down that particular direction, as it carries an implication that strategic choices might be a little too important (if you're wielding a weapon only capable of slashing and fighting enemies in armor strong against that, then you're sort of screwed unless you have a variety of piercing attacks.) It seems easy to solve by letting players carry multiple weapons (and have certain attacks that change up a weapon's damage: sword slash vs. sword stab.)
So the combat system would have to be built out with that in mind, with the goal of avoiding any given situation feeling repetitive and dull (if I have a sword that has a variety of slashing attacks and a single stab, then is my combat just ultra dull when I fight opponents who are only vulnerable to piercing attacks?)
It still feels solvable, but would require a lot of design effort to shape it into something fun (and comprehensible by players.)
Also if you flip the table on existing armor design that frees you up to shift things around for mages too. Just like ESO where they're like "wait, why can't mages use armor again? Oh right, they can!" (since the only reason to limit mages' armor is if their kit is stronger than another class' kit, and most games have realized that's not a great way to balance a game in the first place; though certainly you can take the WOW approach and have the kit's advantages not be offensive but purely defensive (same DPS as anyone else, but with ice block, blink, frost nova, etc) Point being you would certainly be able to let mages use the same armor as anyone else if you wanted. The main think you lose is visual distinction (mainly valuable for PVP, where it's helpful to spot a Hunter vs. Mage vs. Warrior at range and immediately know their class which will factor into how you approach that class.)
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I wholeheartedly agree with your over-all point, but you are framing it to the wrong era, or crowd. I do not care about MMOs, only MMORPGs. That is why I am here.
Yet, you start your opening post on "Most MMOs..." and that is the over all problem. Because MMO have no roleplaying element and are indeed bland and arcade. I highly doubt a MMO will have what you are looking for. Mortal Online will, it is a MMORPG.
EverQuest (a MMORPG) has Cloth, Banded, Chain, Ring, Plate, etc
Each armor type had it's own advantages & disadvantages. Cloth is lightweight, plate is heavy and cumbersome. How each of these pros & cons get in game is dependent on the depth of that game. MMORPGs have more depth than MMOs (which are typically based on action arcade elements).
There has to be underlying mechanics that support armor types, just not graphics. MMO do not have that type of depth. Start looking at role playing games that do for your answer.
I recall reading that plate armor was the strongest protection, but the least mobile in Medieval times. It's invention brought the demise of the one handed weapons as they were not strong enough to penetrate plate armor. Most plate wearers were knights as the armor was expensive to craft and you would generally ride on a horse.
Chain mail was sometimes worn under plate armor to help protect areas that plate didn't cover. It was probably the most common armor for soldiers.
There are different types of plate as well. Some just cover the breast or parts of the arms and legs. That would be lighter.
Leather armor wasn't really much protection. It's only upside was mobility.
The crossbow eliminated plate armor as it was strong enough to penetrate it from a distance.
Armor, weapons, and their use is a constant evolution where one new technology eliminates another.
To make things more interesting in a game you generally have technology stuck at a stand still.
I feel that equipment is overused in games and is often represented poorly. There is to much of it and often it has some ridiculous design. There are also many times bonus stats attached to equipment that are unnecessary. They are just there to keep people on the equipment treadmill. I prefer armor of a far more simple design that is closer to the real thing. You would find armor like that in older games, far less of it, and with far less stats.
I believe a chain mail armor could be fairly light depending on the materials used and who crafted it.
When we delve into fantasy we also have to take into account magic which can be used to strengthen some armor beyond a realistic strength like the often portrayed elven chain mail in D&D. That was just a chain mail with no special stats other then it had a bit higher armor class and it was very light.
Armor for humans developed across time. From cave man to modern day soldier.
What era of armor does this OR that game stem from? Do you see how trying to interpret any type of armor, would have to be period specific. Even if by era, armors such as Banded, or Plate mail was not 100%, they had chain & leather elements too. And 700 miles away, they were made differently, or with different metals. Endless history..! (and there was no elves, or mithril or dwarven ringmail either.)
This discussion about historically correct anything does not matter in a high-fantasy setting.
:P
Secondly we are playing a game not real life, armour in mmo's is not meant to work realistically other than the weight ratio although it can look realistic.
I believe to make it realistic you can't have certain things coexisting together. Any technology that would eliminate another technology couldn't exist at the same time.
In most cases one technology would have vast advantages over another specific technology. Especially if combined with certain strategies. Basically it would be almost a no win situation if a person in plate encounters one with a crossbow unless they are right on top of the crossbow person and they don't have time to shoot or miss.
Plate wearers would have a big advantage over most chain mail and one handed weapon users. That could probably be lived with if plate armor was expensive and not very common.
The point is there isn't really much balance in real life. Even in games generally mages should be able to destroy a single warrior unless they can get close to them, but that isn't often the case because of balance (PVP). It's one of those things that makes the games less interesting IMO.
First of all, I hate the huge power gaps that bring a player to something like 50K of hit points. Totally unrealistic and blows immersion out of the water.
I've always wanted to see an armor system that is formed on top of a Stat system. I'd like to see Stats heavily modify combat first, then have armor modify that further.
So, compare combat between unarmored characters, using dexterity, agility, constitution, and strength as the differences. Then add skills, of course. Then add modifiers from armor.
So a very agile character would naturally want to wear armors that enhance protection in agile combat, while a very stout (stamina and strength) combatant would use heavy armors that enhance what he does best.
Your idea of adding HPs via armor works well. But alternatively you could modify damage reduction. They both end up being about the same thing.
Once upon a time....
In Everquest stats meant a lot because armor didn't have stats except for minor ones at high levels. That meant a characters stat strength was mostly based on what race they chose and what skill they had with the abilities they used. Stats didn't increase per level. What you had at character creation was what you got. The only thing that sucked was HP did increase per level and that made a large gap between those of high level and those of low level.
Half or Combat Plate is the chain and plate mix. Common to wealthier people. Consisted of breast plate, helm, gauntlets, and thigh or girdle. Rest is chain and leather on arms, legs, midsection. Good protection, slow mobility, good for horse combat where you will be a target of spears. On ground bad in mass combat.
Full chain was rarely worn. That is a hoodie, chest, arms, and hangs down to thighs. Very heavy, hot, but great slash potection. Only armies that really used this was italian and french. One size fits all mass army production. Really only good for formation fighting.
Chain and pad was what English and vikings used. Chain halburk and chain coif with 2" padded shirt under. The combo stopped slash and light or distant ranged weapons. Good mobility less extremity protection.
Common folk just had padded armor made to soften blunt weapons and limited ranged protection. Good to run away in.
Hardened leather on the battlefield not to common after steel and iron came into heavy use for anything more than hunting gear, backing of armor, and boots or gloves. Cloth and metal helms were even more common than full leather ones.
based on history even thought plate was a evolution on armors over the chain armor, the chain was still in use for lighter troops, for the simple reason of being cheaper to outfit a troop with leather and chain then a full squad of plate knights, only the really rich knights could pay for full plate armor, also take note use better materials also make the cahin lighter and they made new kinds of chain who would have his weight evenly ditributed.
but then we have to add game essence, its a world then we use magic to craft such armor/weapon, on aion all crafts use aether, on arche age they use archeum, otehrs use monster parts for the craft, this is a source of magic, with can change or not the weight of it, plus remember we are saying even the skimpest type of gear can and most of time will give more defensive stats then a more sturdy looking one.
also your idea of better gear gave better hp was used on final fantasy tactics, with armor gave hp and some extra stat depending of the gear, or like ff12 with leather gave hp and plate gave def and str.
and some game the defensive stat can be ignored and only use for armor is the extra stats.
more elaborated with the OP idea, plate used to ignore all damage if not hit with enough strenght, pretty much not really damaging the knight at all so raising his hp with would mean his own body resistance.
I'm actually going to disagree with this. While there are obviously real world correlations, nothing says that you can't have all of them at the same time and then create real reasons that all of them would exist at the same time.
Even if it's something like "A lot of chain mail was made and is still in circulation because plate is very expensive at this point in time". Or maybe only a few people can make it.
Or some such thing.
Unless the game is trying to be historically accurate "game world reasons" can be created to justify each piece of armor or weapon. I think people who know a lot about early weapons and armor and who are wedded to everything being pinned to specific points in history might be the only people who would have trouble with this.
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@Loke666
I think the idea seems quite simple but that just leaves a ton of questions. What determines the original health score of the player? Is damage to armor HP self replenishing? How will damage of type 1 compare and sustain to damage of type 2?
With mitigation you have a fairly neat control set. X damage of Type Y - armor mitigation % - resistance mitigation to type Y % = actual damage
How do you propose your damage calculation to work?
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