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Star Citizen Employees Speak Out on Project Woes!

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  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG Member UncommonPosts: 1,384
    Erillion said:
    That is what brothers are for, no ? ;-)

    Seems to me Erin and Chris together are a good team.


    Have fun

    Yeah not really though... back in Origin Systems days it was really Richard Garriott and Warren Spector it seems that are the project managers, and they delivers.

    Erin was another creative guys, that's why Digital Anvil seems to suffer similar sort of problems when they were making Freelancer and Starlancer.
  • reeereeereeereee Member UncommonPosts: 1,636
    Distopia said:
    Iselin said:
    Distopia said:

    Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?



    Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
    Aside from the fact that I'm not a fan of over regulation on what is essentially a private affair between donor and recipient. WHat good would that really do, most wouldn't even know what they're looking at, secondly most wouldn't understand half the expenses in relation to a Dev studio, that would cause more confusion than we see now IMO.
    Over-regulating crowdfunding removes some of the incentive for a development studio to use it in the first place.  One of the reasons it's attractive for them is that they don't have to bend to please investors.

    I think the better approach would be to increase the awareness of what it means to pledge to a crowdfunded project.  It should be really drilled home that it's a donation not an investment and that if the project fails you will get nothing in return.  Then you let people take their chances and when they start to complain the project is taking too long you apologize for the delay and politely tell them to shut the fuck up.
    Wait, so your argument is that it's good crowdfunding provides free unaccountable money because otherwise people might actually think twice about trying to get crowdfunding money for their pie-in-the-sky projects?
  • user547user547 Member UncommonPosts: 150
    Unaccountable to who?  There seems to be this notion that there is a special someone who must have "accountability" over everything everywhere.
  • MrSnufflesMrSnuffles Member UncommonPosts: 1,117
    Distopia said:
    Iselin said:
    Distopia said:

    Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?



    Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
    Aside from the fact that I'm not a fan of over regulation on what is essentially a private affair between donor and recipient. What good would that really do? Most wouldn't know what they're looking at, secondly most wouldn't understand half the expenses in relation to a Dev studio, that would cause more confusion than we see now IMO.

    Being a private business is a choice companies make, a funding source is a funding source like any other. Be it private donation private investor or public investment. You're essentially stripping a company of choice on how to do business. One that is afforded to any other company in the US as far as I am aware..
    I don't think there is a need for regulation. This is already covered with standard charity donations. If the recipient uses the funds for anything else than what the donors gave it for then they will be accountable for it and possibly go to jail.

    With CIG it is also covered by standard federal commerce laws because people are not donating they are buying ships in an online store. So a product is sold and if that product is not delivered then it is fraud.

    They have a separate section for "pledges" a.k.a. donations. The Shop is just that, an online shop where you buy virtual items not a donation.

    Of cause this would go to court and the outcome is unknown but the facts are that ship sales, merchandise and other digital items are not donations.


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    "It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
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    Community Manager, MMORPG.com

    "As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law

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  • AnnaTSAnnaTS Member UncommonPosts: 600
    edited October 2015
    I will admit maybe some of my posts probably do come across as being harsh i don't intentionally mean them that way but i usually say things as i can see them, i only posted to state my view and some how i have seemed to of got sucked in, i was only showing an interest in the game because more threads kept coming on the forum about the game and that was way before all this started. 

    I don't have an agenda i was just posted my view as i see it and trying to get a point across, but i don't think my view or the point i was trying to get across didn't go down well with some people.


    Don't play the poor misunderstood victim, you have been told your posts are redundant because they are and you seem intent on ramming the same thing down everyones throat. 

    When We point out we got the dang message so feel free to move on to a different argument You get like you do in the post you quoted of Dren Utogi and very like a hypocrite try to lump us all together with Dren Utogi.

    You seem to want to do this kind of thing ad nauseam and think we wont see it or so you can keep playing the poor damsel in distress.

    Heh and you keep going on about SC fanatics...lol

    We can sum up your posts to:

    ~ OMGZ why are SC fanatics so gullible and blind it is unhealthy for them

    ~OMGZ why do people trust CR he just a man on the interwebz, they must be SC fanatics 0.o.0 (and here u lump in anyone that doesn't agree with your statements or reasoning)

    ~ Why doesn't CR do what I WANT and stop selling ship to prove to me that he's not scamming me

    ~ OMG if your not a fanatic why wont you  jump in my bandwagon and demand the same from CR that I want

    ~ OMG why doesn't anyone listen to me

    ~ OMG I can''t help you if you don't understand how my mind works o.0o.o


    Rinse and repeat with different words and not subtle variations....

    Ad nauseam



    I don't see how what i posted is acting like a victim, someone commented on one of my posts and i answered honestly i don't know where you get the victim part.

    I have said multiple things in my posts, i have already explained the point i was trying to get a across, ok you may of got it but others still haven't as i can see.

    But if things go belly up or the game isn't to your liking don't come whining on the forum because people will go through your post history, they did it with people who where complaining about archgeage, so all these people who think chris roberts can do no wrong or fail these people will probably just get laughed at.

    Please try and tell me how what i posted about Dren Utogi gave you this thought and you posted it i am confused.

    When We point out we got the dang message so feel free to move on to a different argument You get like you do in the post you quoted of Dren Utogi and very like a hypocrite try to lump us all together with Dren Utogi.

    How is what i posted lumping us all together ?

    Plus if you are not a fanatic and don't believe everything chris roberts is saying is the truth then my posts don't apply too you.

    Also someone who says omg so many times i can't take seriously, if anyone has seen the only way is essex will know what i mean. lol

    Plus i have noticed why mosts of my posyts seem the same that is because when i made a comment i had to reply to different people so i was obviously explaining the same thing to different people on different occassions.
    Post edited by AnnaTS on
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    CrazKanuk said:

    I think that KS is just a really good marketing platform now. Also, it's a good way to ensure you have buy-in. Some people (like inXile Entertainment) have used it multiple times, despite being successful with their other games. It just gives some re-assurance that you're headed in the right direction. There's an interest. 

    In the case of CR, I think that the initial concept was more modest than his "best case" vision, but it's gotten to a point where I think he feels like he can make the game he wants to make. I say "cool". Go for it. Just make sure that there's something in the end. Like I said, I'd even settle for a Freelance 2 or Privateer 3. I definitely don't think it's a scam though. The whole scam or con angle just doesn't make good sense. Even if he was a criminal. 
    That's true.  Even the sources cited in the original Escapist article don't seem to think he's out to scam anyone; they just think he's biting off more than he can chew on the backers' dimes and it's having a negative effect on the development of an actual end product.

    Considering the all-over-the-place development (Squadron 42 is scheduled for rel- oh nevermind, maybe it will or won't) and the overall lack of progress in building and showing the world (and not just some arena-style empty space and a hangar), I can say that's a lot more believable claim than that CR is a scam artist.  Much more likely (though I am not claiming to know for a fact, just in comparison to the "scam" claims), he's just a poor project manager that happened to be extraordinarily funded by the crowd and (may) end up crippling the crowdfunding scene if he manages to run the project into the ground.

    I agree with you that this project will have an impact on the crowdfunding scene. 

    As for CR as a project manager, well he's broken the project down into modules, so +1 on that part. AC is out, so check mark on that. We've got the whole flying in space thing down. I guess we'll see what comes of S42 this weekend. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
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    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Iselin said:
    Distopia said:

    Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?



    Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
    Yes it is as it should be for all KS projects or none. And while we're on the subject if people are really annoyed that they feel that kickstarter projects have no oversight why the living fuck aren't any of them directing this anger at Kickstarter themselves, as they're the ones who have to change the rules.

    Is this a REAL problem or a perceived problem? The rate of success for Kickstarter-funded games is increasing year-over-year. It says that people are becoming more educated about the process, what's realistic, what isn't, and also saving their money for projects that have a team that can execute. Kickstarter-funded games have shipped a game in over 80% of cases, including games up until the end of 2014. Also, that includes all the games which AREN'T meant to ship yet, so that doesn't mean that 20% are not going to ship. In fact, there are very few project which out-right throw in the towel. 

    So what is it that increased accountability is solving, exactly? Now, SC is an exceptional case, but they raised the majority of money outside the KS campaign, so where to these rules apply? To what extent? How do you enforce them? It's a legal nightmare, really, and, honestly, I don't think that people really give a shit in the majority of cases.  

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    CrazKanuk said:
    Iselin said:
    Distopia said:

    Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?



    Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
    Yes it is as it should be for all KS projects or none. And while we're on the subject if people are really annoyed that they feel that kickstarter projects have no oversight why the living fuck aren't any of them directing this anger at Kickstarter themselves, as they're the ones who have to change the rules.

    Is this a REAL problem or a perceived problem? The rate of success for Kickstarter-funded games is increasing year-over-year. It says that people are becoming more educated about the process, what's realistic, what isn't, and also saving their money for projects that have a team that can execute. Kickstarter-funded games have shipped a game in over 80% of cases, including games up until the end of 2014. Also, that includes all the games which AREN'T meant to ship yet, so that doesn't mean that 20% are not going to ship. In fact, there are very few project which out-right throw in the towel. 

    So what is it that increased accountability is solving, exactly? Now, SC is an exceptional case, but they raised the majority of money outside the KS campaign, so where to these rules apply? To what extent? How do you enforce them? It's a legal nightmare, really, and, honestly, I don't think that people really give a shit in the majority of cases.  
    Its a completely perceived and manufactured problem used to justify attacks against Star Citizen. Proven by the inability of any of said attackers to steer the narrative against someone who has actual authority and could change the kickstarter project process, I.E. Kickstarter themselves, if such a change were actually needed.

    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,784
    Distopia said:
    Iselin said:
    Distopia said:

    Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?



    Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
    Aside from the fact that I'm not a fan of over regulation on what is essentially a private affair between donor and recipient. What good would that really do? Most wouldn't know what they're looking at, secondly most wouldn't understand half the expenses in relation to a Dev studio, that would cause more confusion than we see now IMO.

    Being a private business is a choice companies make, a funding source is a funding source like any other. Be it private donation private investor or public investment. You're essentially stripping a company of choice on how to do business. One that is afforded to any other company in the US as far as I am aware..
    I don't think there is a need for regulation. This is already covered with standard charity donations. If the recipient uses the funds for anything else than what the donors gave it for then they will be accountable for it and possibly go to jail.

    With CIG it is also covered by standard federal commerce laws because people are not donating they are buying ships in an online store. So a product is sold and if that product is not delivered then it is fraud.

    They have a separate section for "pledges" a.k.a. donations. The Shop is just that, an online shop where you buy virtual items not a donation.

    Of cause this would go to court and the outcome is unknown but the facts are that ship sales, merchandise and other digital items are not donations.


    How is asking a business to provide financial reports considered regulation? Nothing is being regulated. You even state that if charitable funds are used for something other than their expressed purposed then they will be accountable for it . . . how? How can someone be accountable for something if they're not required to, at minimum, provide regular reports on how funds are being allocated?

    This doesn't have to come from the government, Kickstarter could easily add a clause that states any project funded at X number of dollars must inform donors how money is being used.

    I don't think simply explaining to people that crowdfunding is a donation and not an investment will change anything. I'm pretty sure most understand that. What they don't understand is how much game/product development costs. That's where the issue is and transparent accounting would greatly help people to realize when something is underfunded or unrealistic.

    Right now, someone slaps up a crowdfunding project and says, "We need X money to make this amazing idea!" And people throw money at it without any idea of whether or not the requested amount will be enough. Even the best developers can't pull magic out of their butts, running any business is expensive. There is no way to educate everyone on all matters regarding operating a business, so the next best thing is asking large projects to share their financials. They should be producing those reports anyway, so there wouldn't be additional effort on their part beyond uploading a pdf to their site and saying, "Here you go" - and if they're not creating these reports, then you can pretty much guarantee they have no clue what they're doing.

    Despite this request having nothing to do with regulation, people really need to get over the idea that "regulations are bad" - some regulations are bad, others are good. Regulations are neutral, they're a tool and sometimes they function to benefit business and sometimes not, and sometimes they serve to benefit the consumer, something people rarely appreciate until they live in a place in which those regulations don't exist - like, elevators must have XYZ safety mechanism, or, children's toys are not allowed to have lead in them and if you include malware on your USB devices you will be fined and possibly shut down.
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,022
    edited October 2015
    CrazKanuk said:
    Iselin said:
    Distopia said:


    Is this a REAL problem or a perceived problem? The rate of success for Kickstarter-funded games is increasing year-over-year. It says that people are becoming more educated about the process, what's realistic, what isn't, and also saving their money for projects that have a team that can execute. Kickstarter-funded games have shipped a game in over 80% of cases, including games up until the end of 2014. Also, that includes all the games which AREN'T meant to ship yet, so that doesn't mean that 20% are not going to ship. In fact, there are very few project which out-right throw in the towel. 

    So what is it that increased accountability is solving, exactly? Now, SC is an exceptional case, but they raised the majority of money outside the KS campaign, so where to these rules apply? To what extent? How do you enforce them? It's a legal nightmare, really, and, honestly, I don't think that people really give a shit in the majority of cases.  
    Got a proper source on the "shipped a game in over 80% of cases"? Do games that released as alpha count as shipped?

    To be specific, do they count Godus as being released or not?
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Shaigh said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Iselin said:
    Distopia said:


    Is this a REAL problem or a perceived problem? The rate of success for Kickstarter-funded games is increasing year-over-year. It says that people are becoming more educated about the process, what's realistic, what isn't, and also saving their money for projects that have a team that can execute. Kickstarter-funded games have shipped a game in over 80% of cases, including games up until the end of 2014. Also, that includes all the games which AREN'T meant to ship yet, so that doesn't mean that 20% are not going to ship. In fact, there are very few project which out-right throw in the towel. 

    So what is it that increased accountability is solving, exactly? Now, SC is an exceptional case, but they raised the majority of money outside the KS campaign, so where to these rules apply? To what extent? How do you enforce them? It's a legal nightmare, really, and, honestly, I don't think that people really give a shit in the majority of cases.  
    Got a proper source on the "shipped a game in over 80% of cases"? Do games that released as alpha count as shipped?

    To be specific, do they count Godus as being released or not?

    Yes, me. I've manually verified the state of each of the games myself. The spreadsheet was originally produced by evil as a hobby, attempting to support the idea that only 1/3 of games from KS ship. Feel free to have a peek.

    Yes, Godus is considered to be released. It's a game. It's not the vision, but it's a game. Same way that SC will likely not be as full-featured as promised. Probably how ED didn't have all the features promised. Probably how plenty of games, outside crowdfunding, pull features. The real question is whether or not a game is delivered. 

    Do Alpha and Beta count? In some cases, yes. I've commented most of them, but haven't spent the time to go back and update ones already marked as delivered, either. Also, I should note that I lied, it's projects up until the end of 2013, not 2014. Also, I haven't finished updating the 2013 ones either. If I had to dig for an answer, I moved on. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros Member EpicPosts: 2,924
    edited October 2015
    Rusque said:
    Distopia said:
    Iselin said:
    Distopia said:

    Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?



    Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
    Aside from the fact that I'm not a fan of over regulation on what is essentially a private affair between donor and recipient. What good would that really do? Most wouldn't know what they're looking at, secondly most wouldn't understand half the expenses in relation to a Dev studio, that would cause more confusion than we see now IMO.

    Being a private business is a choice companies make, a funding source is a funding source like any other. Be it private donation private investor or public investment. You're essentially stripping a company of choice on how to do business. One that is afforded to any other company in the US as far as I am aware..
    I don't think there is a need for regulation. This is already covered with standard charity donations. If the recipient uses the funds for anything else than what the donors gave it for then they will be accountable for it and possibly go to jail.

    With CIG it is also covered by standard federal commerce laws because people are not donating they are buying ships in an online store. So a product is sold and if that product is not delivered then it is fraud.

    They have a separate section for "pledges" a.k.a. donations. The Shop is just that, an online shop where you buy virtual items not a donation.

    Of cause this would go to court and the outcome is unknown but the facts are that ship sales, merchandise and other digital items are not donations.


    How is asking a business to provide financial reports considered regulation? Nothing is being regulated. You even state that if charitable funds are used for something other than their expressed purposed then they will be accountable for it . . . how? How can someone be accountable for something if they're not required to, at minimum, provide regular reports on how funds are being allocated?

    This doesn't have to come from the government, Kickstarter could easily add a clause that states any project funded at X number of dollars must inform donors how money is being used.

    I don't think simply explaining to people that crowdfunding is a donation and not an investment will change anything. I'm pretty sure most understand that. What they don't understand is how much game/product development costs. That's where the issue is and transparent accounting would greatly help people to realize when something is underfunded or unrealistic.

    Right now, someone slaps up a crowdfunding project and says, "We need X money to make this amazing idea!" And people throw money at it without any idea of whether or not the requested amount will be enough. Even the best developers can't pull magic out of their butts, running any business is expensive. There is no way to educate everyone on all matters regarding operating a business, so the next best thing is asking large projects to share their financials. They should be producing those reports anyway, so there wouldn't be additional effort on their part beyond uploading a pdf to their site and saying, "Here you go" - and if they're not creating these reports, then you can pretty much guarantee they have no clue what they're doing.

    Despite this request having nothing to do with regulation, people really need to get over the idea that "regulations are bad" - some regulations are bad, others are good. Regulations are neutral, they're a tool and sometimes they function to benefit business and sometimes not, and sometimes they serve to benefit the consumer, something people rarely appreciate until they live in a place in which those regulations don't exist - like, elevators must have XYZ safety mechanism, or, children's toys are not allowed to have lead in them and if you include malware on your USB devices you will be fined and possibly shut down.
    Well sure, some regulation is of course appropriate and necessary.

    So you make the case for the crowdfunded project to produce financial reports and I can't argue against that being a sensible precaution.  But I can understand a company being reluctant to want to be required to do that under these circumstances where they'll likely then have thousands of donors exploding with outrage over what they perceive to be poorly allocated funds.  "Why did they spend that much on X?" "It doesn't cost that much!" "WTF, a cappuccino machine?!!" It just sounds like it could be a real headache for the development studio so hopefully the report could be general enough so as for them not to have to get shit thrown at them over every item they choose to spend money on.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,312
    edited October 2015
    Distopia said:
    Iselin said:
    Distopia said:

    Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?



    Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
    Aside from the fact that I'm not a fan of over regulation on what is essentially a private affair between donor and recipient. What good would that really do? Most wouldn't know what they're looking at, secondly most wouldn't understand half the expenses in relation to a Dev studio, that would cause more confusion than we see now IMO.

    Being a private business is a choice companies make, a funding source is a funding source like any other. Be it private donation private investor or public investment. You're essentially stripping a company of choice on how to do business. One that is afforded to any other company in the US as far as I am aware..
    So "over regulation" is a bad thing? No shit, Sherlock. Otherwise it wouldn't be called "over." What about "under regulation?" Are you equally not a fan of that? 

    Apparently you buy into the corporate narrative that everything would be just hunky-dory if those evil regulators would just leave us the fuck alone. Can't blame you though since that's the core message fed to you by corporations, government and the media in your brave new manipulated world.

    And please, "most wouldn't understand"? You're saying a lot there about your education system but whatever... there are enough who would understand it and could explain it in tiny twitter bite-sized language to their dimmer cousins.

    Transparency is a good thing... or has your confidence about that basic fact been undermined as well?
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,802
    Iselin said:
    Distopia said:
    Iselin said:
    Distopia said:

    Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?



    Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
    Aside from the fact that I'm not a fan of over regulation on what is essentially a private affair between donor and recipient. What good would that really do? Most wouldn't know what they're looking at, secondly most wouldn't understand half the expenses in relation to a Dev studio, that would cause more confusion than we see now IMO.

    Being a private business is a choice companies make, a funding source is a funding source like any other. Be it private donation private investor or public investment. You're essentially stripping a company of choice on how to do business. One that is afforded to any other company in the US as far as I am aware..
    So "over regulation" is a bad thing? No shit, Sherlock. Otherwise it wouldn't be called "over." What about "under regulation?" Are you equally not a fan of that? 

    Apparently you buy into the corporate narrative that everything would be just hunky-dory if those evil regulators would just leave us the fuck alone. Can't blame you though since that's the core message fed to you by corporations, government and the media in your brave new manipulated world.

    And please, "most wouldn't understand"? You're saying a lot there about your education system but whatever... there are enough who would understand it and could explain it in tiny twitter bite-sized language to their dimmer cousins.

    Transparency is a good thing... or has your confidence about that basic fact been undermined as well?
    OK, so we don't want to release financials. What about being held accountable for work milestones? They should at least be able to show some solid progress in advancing the project.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,312

    OK, so we don't want to release financials. What about being held accountable for work milestones? They should at least be able to show some solid progress in advancing the project.
    Anything would be better than "it's none of your fucking business" which together with "Hey! Don't look over there (Derek Smart, Derek Smart) look over here! Isn't this shiny?" is their current approach.
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • BrenicsBrenics Member RarePosts: 1,939

    @laserit That is the million dollar question, what happens once funds start to dry up? 

    Another question should be, once you start a KS should you be able to leave with the money and start another way to raise funds?

    Both of these should be dealt with over on KS! Add a monthly report to show where the money is going (to backers) and KS could end up better in the long run for all party's.


    I'm not perfect but I'm always myself!

    Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event


    4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.

    http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/

    Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,312
    Yeah I did see that.

    "Of course, getting a clear picture of the inner workings of a company is very difficult so the other side of the story is hard to come by as well. If all these bad practices are occurring, we can’t very well expect management to expose them for us. And of course, we have no clear picture of the budget situation. Star Citizen has crowd-funded over $90 million and counting, but we don’t know how that money is being spent, how much is left, and so forth."

    And there it is again... THE PROBLEM that keeps giving this drama legs.
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,802
    This article can be summed up:

    One of three things will eventually happen.

    1) The game will release and people will be able to judge it for ourselves on its own merits..........

    or…

    2) CIG runs out of money, the project dies in the cradle, and we discover that some of the accusations may have had teeth after all................

    or…

    3) Some hard evidence will come out to back up or refute accusations that goes well beyond what we’ve seen so far..........


    So all he does is recap what everyone already knows and titles it under the heading "Calm Down" But offers almost no new reassuring evidence.


    Nice! 

    That's just Forbes doing a flip-flop.




  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,022
    CrazKanuk said:
    Shaigh said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Iselin said:
    Distopia said:

    Got a proper source on the "shipped a game in over 80% of cases"? Do games that released as alpha count as shipped?

    To be specific, do they count Godus as being released or not?

    Yes, me. I've manually verified the state of each of the games myself. The spreadsheet was originally produced by evil as a hobby, attempting to support the idea that only 1/3 of games from KS ship. Feel free to have a peek.

    Yes, Godus is considered to be released. It's a game. It's not the vision, but it's a game. Same way that SC will likely not be as full-featured as promised. Probably how ED didn't have all the features promised. Probably how plenty of games, outside crowdfunding, pull features. The real question is whether or not a game is delivered. 

    Do Alpha and Beta count? In some cases, yes. I've commented most of them, but haven't spent the time to go back and update ones already marked as delivered, either. Also, I should note that I lied, it's projects up until the end of 2013, not 2014. Also, I haven't finished updating the 2013 ones either. If I had to dig for an answer, I moved on. 
    I admire your dedication, the one I had seen before only mentioned games that had funds above $75k.

    I disagree on the "its all about whether a game is delivered or not" since by that definition you could say that Pathfinder online was released. However, I agree that its better to go for macro instead of micro and on a macro level kickstarter is positive for gaming.

    For every godus there is a gem like Undertale.
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,947
    edited October 2015
    Erillion said:
    That is what brothers are for, no ? ;-)

    Seems to me Erin and Chris together are a good team.


    Have fun

    Yeah not really though... back in Origin Systems days it was really Richard Garriott and Warren Spector it seems that are the project managers, and they delivers.

    Erin was another creative guys, that's why Digital Anvil seems to suffer similar sort of problems when they were making Freelancer and Starlancer.
    Hmm, looking at Erin Roberts profiles (LinkedIn, MobyGames and IMDB)  i find very little evidence that he was "another of the creative guys". Yes, in his early career you see him working a bit on art.

    But at least for the last 10 years he almost exclusively worked in project/programme management (usually at Director level). Quite successfully it seems, as his games seem to have been quite profitable.

    And referring to the topic of our thread - personally i think that Erin is pushing his employees hard, but treats them well.


    Have fun




    Erin Roberts
    Oktober 2013 – Heute (2 Jahre 1 Monat)Wilmslow

    Foundry 42 is A Cloud Imperium Games company working on Star Citizen and Squadron 42.

    Januar 2006 – Oktober 2013 (7 Jahre 10 Monate)Wilmslow, Cheshire, U.K.
    Januar 2001 – Februar 2005 (4 Jahre 2 Monate)Austin und Umgebung, Texas
    Dezember 1996 – Dezember 2000 (4 Jahre 1 Monat)Austin und Umgebung, Texas
    November 1993 – November 1996 (3 Jahre 1 Monat)Slough, Großbritannien
    Mai 1990 – Oktober 1993 (3 Jahre 6 Monate)Austin und Umgebung, Texas

    **************************************************************************************


    Post edited by Erillion on
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,947
    edited October 2015
    Erin Roberts info continued:

    http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0731086/


    Filmography
    Hide Hide Producer (3 credits)
     2001 Conquest: Frontier Wars (Video Game) (producer - as Erin D. Roberts)
     1996 Privateer 2: The Darkening (Video Game) (producer)
     1993 Privateer (Video Game) (associate producer)
    Hide Hide Director (2 credits)
     2000 StarLancer (Video Game)
     1996 Privateer 2: The Darkening (Video Game)
    Hide Hide Writer (1 credit)
     1996 Privateer 2: The Darkening (Video Game) (concept and story)
    Hide Hide Art department (1 credit)
     1990 Wing Commander (Video Game) (designer)

    ****************************************************************************************




    Have fun
    Post edited by Erillion on
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,947
    edited October 2015
    Erin Roberts info continued:

    Game Credits
    Business
    LEGO Harry Potter: Years 5-7 (2011)   (Studio Director)
    LEGO Pirates of the Caribbean: The Video Game (2011)   (Studio Director)
    LEGO Rock Band (2009)   (Studio Director)
    Guinness World Records: The Videogame (2008)   (Studio Director)
    LEGO Batman: The Videogame (2008)   (Studio Director)
    Richard Burns Rally (2004)   (Studio Manager)
     
    Production
    The Lord of the Rings: Aragorn's Quest (2010)   (Studio Director)
    LEGO Star Wars: The Complete Saga (2007)   (Studio Manager)
    Brute Force (2003)   (Producer)
    Conquest: Frontier Wars (2001)   (Producers)
    Privateer 2: The Darkening (1996)   (Producer)
    Starlancer (2000)   (Producer)
    ShadowCaster (1993)   (Associate Producer)
    Strike Commander (1993)   (Associate Producer)
    Wing Commander: Privateer (1993)   (Associate Producer)
     
    Design
    Starlancer (2000)   (Game Design)
    Dangerous Streets & Wing Commander (1994)   (Dogfight Choreography)
    Wing Commander / Wing Commander II (Special CD-ROM... (1994)   (Design)
    Wing Commander (1990)   (Dogfight Choreagraphy)
     
    Programming/Engineering
    Super Wing Commander (1994)   (Dogfight Choreography)
     
    Quality Assurance
    Magic Carpet: The Hidden Worlds (1995)   (EA Testers)
    Magic Carpet (1994)   (Playtesting)
    Super Wing Commander (1994)   (Quality Assurance)
    Wing Commander / Wing Commander II (Special CD-ROM... (1994)   (Quality Assurance)
    Wing Commander (1990)   (Quality Assurance)
    Knights of Legend (1989)   (Playtesting)
     
    Creative Services
    Strike Commander (CD-ROM Edition) (1993)   (Foreign Correspondent)
     
    Other
    Strykers Run (1986)   (General inspiration)

    ************************************************************************************************

    Have fun
    Post edited by Erillion on
  • BrenicsBrenics Member RarePosts: 1,939

    That is all fine and great, but CR needs to be removed and records need to be shown if he did embezzle any funds. Heck Maybe he didn't but his wife did. It is time to put up or shut up CR. Let your brother run the show and get it all worked out.

    But people still need to follow the money.

    I'm not perfect but I'm always myself!

    Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event


    4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.

    http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/

    Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Shaigh said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Shaigh said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Iselin said:
    Distopia said:

    Got a proper source on the "shipped a game in over 80% of cases"? Do games that released as alpha count as shipped?

    To be specific, do they count Godus as being released or not?

    Yes, me. I've manually verified the state of each of the games myself. The spreadsheet was originally produced by evil as a hobby, attempting to support the idea that only 1/3 of games from KS ship. Feel free to have a peek.

    Yes, Godus is considered to be released. It's a game. It's not the vision, but it's a game. Same way that SC will likely not be as full-featured as promised. Probably how ED didn't have all the features promised. Probably how plenty of games, outside crowdfunding, pull features. The real question is whether or not a game is delivered. 

    Do Alpha and Beta count? In some cases, yes. I've commented most of them, but haven't spent the time to go back and update ones already marked as delivered, either. Also, I should note that I lied, it's projects up until the end of 2013, not 2014. Also, I haven't finished updating the 2013 ones either. If I had to dig for an answer, I moved on. 
    I admire your dedication, the one I had seen before only mentioned games that had funds above $75k.

    I disagree on the "its all about whether a game is delivered or not" since by that definition you could say that Pathfinder online was released. However, I agree that its better to go for macro instead of micro and on a macro level kickstarter is positive for gaming.

    For every godus there is a gem like Undertale.

    Thanks! My updates have tapered off a little. I'm still working on 2013 items. 

    Yeah, I agree that the macro level is a must. There may be exceptions, but I'll definitely accept that games will ship without certain features. Also, you might not get your t-shirt, but I don't care about that at this level. Godus is a little grey-area since they had a super-high level tier that was never delivered (Some mystery box thing). I mean that could have been anything. 

    Either way, Godus went on and actually had some critical acclaim, on iOS anyway. As far as user reviews, it always goes back to broken promises for features. 

    Honestly, the people who bring a lack of features into a conversation re: the viability of KS or crowdfunding are the worst. Are they wrong? No and yes. If you were the PM of that project, it would never be delivered. If you were the PM of that project, you'd likely have more than one developer kick you in the balls. 

    I can understand the disappointment, but at some point, did you get a game out of it? Even if it's not everytihng you thought it could be. Oh, also, it should be noted that if we were to hold KS to these standards, then, probably, the same number of released, published, games would count as failures, too. Especially anything from EA, it seems. They are just impossible standards, unfortunately. 

    PFO was definitely released, because that's what they said :) 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

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