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Star Citizen Employees Speak Out on Project Woes!

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  • laxielaxie Member RarePosts: 1,052
    As much as I hate this whole situation, it does act as a "publisher". It puts pressure on CIG to deliver, which might not be a bad thing in the long run.
  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG Member UncommonPosts: 1,384
    Roberts created 5 good games that I know of from personal experience; I haven't played all his games so I can't comment on the ones I haven't played.  Granted, whether or not a game is "good" is subjective, but I think Roberts' reputation as a developer of good games is well-deserved.
    I think the thing that CR is very good at in terms of game development is conceptualization and art direction - I think it is quite fair to say that (as a current player of ED myself) that even the arts and design of the ships back from the days of Freelancer (or even Privateer) is way better than any of the design that any of the Elites, or X series, or EVE, imo.

    He also is very good in forging the lore and feel of the game universe itself.

    The problem of course, as mentioned many times already, he is just not a good project manager...

  • BrenicsBrenics Member RarePosts: 1,939
    Roberts created 5 good games that I know of from personal experience; I haven't played all his games so I can't comment on the ones I haven't played.  Granted, whether or not a game is "good" is subjective, but I think Roberts' reputation as a developer of good games is well-deserved.
    I think the thing that CR is very good at in terms of game development is conceptualization and art direction - I think it is quite fair to say that (as a current player of ED myself) that even the arts and design of the ships back from the days of Freelancer (or even Privateer) is way better than any of the design that any of the Elites, or X series, or EVE, imo.

    He also is very good in forging the lore and feel of the game universe itself.

    The problem of course, as mentioned many times already, he is just not a good project manager...

    Yep I agree with this, reading about him and the games he was involved in it was others that helped get his idea within the games.
    I'm not perfect but I'm always myself!

    Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event


    4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.

    http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/

    Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!

  • Axllow18Axllow18 Member UncommonPosts: 398
    Brenics said:
    Roberts created 5 good games that I know of from personal experience; I haven't played all his games so I can't comment on the ones I haven't played.  Granted, whether or not a game is "good" is subjective, but I think Roberts' reputation as a developer of good games is well-deserved.
    I think the thing that CR is very good at in terms of game development is conceptualization and art direction - I think it is quite fair to say that (as a current player of ED myself) that even the arts and design of the ships back from the days of Freelancer (or even Privateer) is way better than any of the design that any of the Elites, or X series, or EVE, imo.

    He also is very good in forging the lore and feel of the game universe itself.

    The problem of course, as mentioned many times already, he is just not a good project manager...

    Yep I agree with this, reading about him and the games he was involved in it was others that helped get his idea within the games.
    To be fair though, Roberts is someone who is honestly passionate about gaming and making games and he's done fairly well minus his inability to keep from going over the top on feature creep. I mean he's had more successes under his belt than failures, and many good developers have had flops projects in the past.

    I'm still going to wait to see how this all pans out, but if there is DEFINITELY a flaw Roberts has, it is the inability to say "Ok. We have enough features now."

    Seriously. Chris needs someone to sit next to him and wait for that sparkle in his eye to start and then yell no at him and hit him with a rolled up paper.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,290
    Roberts created 5 good games that I know of from personal experience; I haven't played all his games so I can't comment on the ones I haven't played.  Granted, whether or not a game is "good" is subjective, but I think Roberts' reputation as a developer of good games is well-deserved.
    I think the thing that CR is very good at in terms of game development is conceptualization and art direction - I think it is quite fair to say that (as a current player of ED myself) that even the arts and design of the ships back from the days of Freelancer (or even Privateer) is way better than any of the design that any of the Elites, or X series, or EVE, imo.

    He also is very good in forging the lore and feel of the game universe itself.

    The problem of course, as mentioned many times already, he is just not a good project manager...

    Agreed. I've played all of his space sims when they were new. They were a hell of a lot of fun and pushed the technical envelope for those days. I really hope he can pull this one off too despite his project management shortcomings.
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Iselin said:
      
    There has been some low profile shit been exposed for not doing the KS right - financially, with their lack of technical expertise or ethically. Bu this ain't some low profile crowd funding two-bit game, so yes, it will do more than jack squat. And maybe you haven't noticed but gamer's attitude towards crowdfunding has been getting a bit more skeptical and jaded over time.

    Will people still "donate" to future projects even if SC fails? Yeah, they probably will and they'll pay $149 for alpha and beta access and all kinds of other crazy shit... I still remember when $149 seemed like an outrageously large amount to give for Landmark and Archeage ahead of release. Now it just seems like a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of CIG ships.

    Yeah. It's their money and they can take chances with it or not... and gambling also should not be regulated... and while we're at it let's not regulate stocks either. Because, you know, people know the risks and it's their money after all.
    Are people that gamble doing so to help a casino make a product? Are people investing in stocks so they can see a product be a success, not really... It's quite the opposite, they're investing so they can flourish.

    Totally different things. That's what makes no sense to me about those who post strong opinions against KS or Crowd funding in general. I don't see where the motivation in it is, as those doing this aren't just doing it willy nilly, they have reasons that they want to do it. Because they can afford to do it.

    Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?



    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • fyerwallfyerwall Member UncommonPosts: 3,240
    Axllow18 said:
    Brenics said:
    Roberts created 5 good games that I know of from personal experience; I haven't played all his games so I can't comment on the ones I haven't played.  Granted, whether or not a game is "good" is subjective, but I think Roberts' reputation as a developer of good games is well-deserved.
    I think the thing that CR is very good at in terms of game development is conceptualization and art direction - I think it is quite fair to say that (as a current player of ED myself) that even the arts and design of the ships back from the days of Freelancer (or even Privateer) is way better than any of the design that any of the Elites, or X series, or EVE, imo.

    He also is very good in forging the lore and feel of the game universe itself.

    The problem of course, as mentioned many times already, he is just not a good project manager...

    Yep I agree with this, reading about him and the games he was involved in it was others that helped get his idea within the games.
    To be fair though, Roberts is someone who is honestly passionate about gaming and making games and he's done fairly well minus his inability to keep from going over the top on feature creep. I mean he's had more successes under his belt than failures, and many good developers have had flops projects in the past.

    I'm still going to wait to see how this all pans out, but if there is DEFINITELY a flaw Roberts has, it is the inability to say "Ok. We have enough features now."

    Seriously. Chris needs someone to sit next to him and wait for that sparkle in his eye to start and then yell no at him and hit him with a rolled up paper.
    They should have had him fitted with a voice activated shock collar programmed to deliver a shock when key words/phrases are spoken like:

    "You know what else we could ad-" *ZzzZZZZAAAAP!*

    "We should add-" *zzzZZZAAAP!*

    "Honestly, The Star Wars prequels weren't really all that ba-" *ZAP! ZZZZZZZZZZZZAAAAAAAP! ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZAAAAAAAAAAAAP!!!*

    There are 3 types of people in the world.
    1.) Those who make things happen
    2.) Those who watch things happen
    3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"


  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG Member UncommonPosts: 1,384
    Axllow18 said:
    Seriously. Chris needs someone to sit next to him and wait for that sparkle in his eye to start and then yell no at him and hit him with a rolled up paper.
    and that was when Chris Roberts, Paul Neurath and Richard Garriott was a team (back in the days of Origin, imo that was their golden years).

    Ever since the split I feel as if they weren't as good compare to before separately (RG's art in his games wasn't as good anymore, CR projects overblown in size, PN's games were all pretty decent but he is just no good at marketing them)
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,290
    Distopia said:

    Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?



    Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • Axllow18Axllow18 Member UncommonPosts: 398
    edited October 2015
    Iselin said:
    Distopia said:

    Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?



    Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
    I actually kind of like this idea. Quickly someone elect this man president.

    Seriously elect this dude, his one comment on a message board was more insightful than every moron who's hit a pulpit in the USA for 16 years.
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Brenics said:
    DocBrody said:
    Derek Smart will be in Jail soon enough if he keeps pretending he is protected by the 5th amendment. DS Lawyers is in full bluff mode.
    I think we all know this is the equivalent of his lawyer


    If you look into the interwebz you´ll find out that Smart has a history of lawsuit threatening for 20 years.
    It´s his special ability, press F5 for lawsuit threat.
    Seriously, the guy is a joke.  It's amazing he has so many people snowed over this considering how easy it is to find out what he's really about with the power of googles.
    Same can be said about CR.
    Not even close, man.  Not even close.  The fact that you would claim such says a lot.

    You know thats exactly how I picture Ortwin screaming and running away when presented with real lawyers who know what they are talking about
  • BrenicsBrenics Member RarePosts: 1,939
    edited October 2015

    Mandatory quarterly financial reports would be fair. But also once you start a KS then you are forbidden to go and sell anything that isn't in the game and able to work. You could charge a monthly fee maybe but there has to some kind of rules setup. If you leave the KS and start to ask for money for in game items then you lose the KS money and have to pay all backers back.

    Just speed thinking but something has to be setup to protect the backers. Where it has been stated they made more after the KS and the little money made from it isn't as good as the money made after. Just not right in my opinion.

    I'm not perfect but I'm always myself!

    Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event


    4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.

    http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/

    Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!

  • BMBenderBMBender Member UncommonPosts: 827
    edited October 2015
    Distopia said:
    Iselin said:
      
    There has been some low profile shit been exposed for not doing the KS right - financially, with their lack of technical expertise or ethically. Bu this ain't some low profile crowd funding two-bit game, so yes, it will do more than jack squat. And maybe you haven't noticed but gamer's attitude towards crowdfunding has been getting a bit more skeptical and jaded over time.

    Will people still "donate" to future projects even if SC fails? Yeah, they probably will and they'll pay $149 for alpha and beta access and all kinds of other crazy shit... I still remember when $149 seemed like an outrageously large amount to give for Landmark and Archeage ahead of release. Now it just seems like a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of CIG ships.

    Yeah. It's their money and they can take chances with it or not... and gambling also should not be regulated... and while we're at it let's not regulate stocks either. Because, you know, people know the risks and it's their money after all.
    Are people that gamble doing so to help a casino make a product? Are people investing in stocks so they can see a product be a success, not really... It's quite the opposite, they're investing so they can flourish.

    Totally different things. That's what makes no sense to me about those who post strong opinions against KS or Crowd funding in general. I don't see where the motivation in it is, as those doing this aren't just doing it willy nilly, they have reasons that they want to do it. Because they can afford to do it.

    Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?




    I agree they are totally different  CK/Gambling
    there are two paths forward the industry and industry media can start policing itself, or be policed.  If it shows a marked tendency to trend one way or another , the results will reflect that

    "So what more regulation is needed?"  This depends; as I've stated before; if an industry can police it self  the regulation it gets (if any) will be "lets job grow" type.  However if regulators feel the need to step in to "Fix Yo s_" things are different.  In the latter case I find it likely that the "investigators" and "regulators" will be not  pre-dominantly gamers, will not be all that aware of gaming,  and fairly un-interested in educating themselves about gaming.  They will be less interested in protecting the "industry" than in  protecting commerce.  A key distinction.

    "Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime" yes they are, however if Enough continue to violate it for long enough...from a legislators perspective...well I guess we need to write more.  It's kind of what they do.

    Also keep in mind it might not be a unilateral set of regs either, particularly if individual states/nations approach it different ways.  It's not in-conceivable one ends up with a patchwork of regs some poor shlep in the future is going to have to try to thread a needle through.  How would you like to be a dev write a game/marketing/ditro plan trying to meet 40+ regs in the upper 48 + whatever federal and national ones crop up.  As likely as not some directly conflicting with others.  At least initially till whatever impetus drove the reg rage gets distracted by something else.

    image
  • user547user547 Member UncommonPosts: 150
    Nice to see the control freaks coming out of the closet to plan everyone's government obligations for them.  Good job.

    This is why whiners are dangerous.  In times past they were the "there oughtta be a law" people and before you know it there were rules about putting ice cream cones in your pocket on Sunday.

    Just because money changes hands does not invite everyone to try to control it.  It's nobody's business how people interact with each other, right?  If someone wants to impose a bunch of rules on themselves, there is already a business model for that.  This need some people have to dominate and control is getting to be too much.
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 3,061
    edited October 2015
    Iselin said:
    Distopia said:

    Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?



    Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
    The thing is KS backers are not "shareholders" and shouldn't have the right thereof BUT say for example a new ks quarterly report law was introduced that forced ks projects to do quarterly reports just to show how the money was being used and to avoid scams/abuse I would be okay with that.

    There would be one caveat though these reports only last until the KS promises/goals etc were fulfilled, also any money earned OUTSIDE of the KS period is not subject to these reports.

    I mean when you back a KS your not buying shares so don't expect any rights as if you did own some.


    Someone previously, some pages back, mentioned that CIG wasn't being held accountable or had no oversight or something of that nature but this isn't entirely true.

    The problem is that, if the info I saw was true, CR hold 85% shares, Ortwin Freyermouth has 10% and ER has the last 5%.  Therefore technically there is oversight and someone for them to report to. It just happens to be themselves.


    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.

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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,290
    Asm0deus said:
    Iselin said:
    Distopia said:

    Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?



    Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
    The thing is KS backers are not "shareholders" and shouldn't have the right thereof BUT say for example a new ks quarterly report law was introduced that forced ks projects to do quarterly reports just to show how the money was being used and to avoid scams/abuse I would be okay with that.

    There would be one caveat though these reports only last until the KS promises/goals etc were fulfilled, also any money earned OUTSIDE of the KS period is not subject to these reports.

    I mean when you back a KS your not buying shares so don't expect any rights as if you did own some.


    Someone previously, some pages back, mentioned that CIG wasn't being held accountable or had no oversight or something of that nature but this isn't entirely true.

    The problem is that, if the info I saw was true, CR hold 85% shares, Ortwin Freyermouth has 10% and ER has the last 5%.  Therefore technically there is oversight and someone for them to report to. It just happens to be themselves.


    It doesn't have to be a law. It'd be a lot better if KS made that part of their TOS. Self regulation is always better. And if KS does it, any non-KS crowdfunding project would pretty well have to follow suit or look dodgy for not doing it.


    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,211

    Nice too read some logical arguments.


    So.... an honest question:


    What should a company that is honestly trying to complete a crowdfunded project ethically do when the funds start to dry up?

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • BMBenderBMBender Member UncommonPosts: 827
    edited October 2015
    laserit said:

    Nice too read some logical arguments.


    So.... an honest question:


    What should a company that is honestly trying to complete a crowdfunded project ethically do when the funds start to dry up?


    Think that's what we're running circles about :D

    We can only really apply market forces, if that isn't enough it's out of our hands honestly.

    image
  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    edited October 2015
    Iselin said:
    Distopia said:

    Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?



    Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
    Yes it is as it should be for all KS projects or none. And while we're on the subject if people are really annoyed that they feel that kickstarter projects have no oversight why the living fuck aren't any of them directing this anger at Kickstarter themselves, as they're the ones who have to change the rules.
    Post edited by MisterZebub on

    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Axllow18 said:

    I'm still going to wait to see how this all pans out, but if there is DEFINITELY a flaw Roberts has, it is the inability to say "Ok. We have enough features now."

    Seriously. Chris needs someone to sit next to him and wait for that sparkle in his eye to start and then yell no at him and hit him with a rolled up paper.


    I don't know if that's a flaw or if it's just the nature of creative people like CR, Garriott, and other developers that create these amazing game worlds we play in. I wonder how many artists crap up what would have otherwise been a good painting, sculpture, or other work of art because they just went so overboard in their passion to make it the perfect masterpiece that it either never got finished or was just a big unweildy mess when it was done. 


    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Axllow18Axllow18 Member UncommonPosts: 398
    Loktofeit said:
    Axllow18 said:

    I'm still going to wait to see how this all pans out, but if there is DEFINITELY a flaw Roberts has, it is the inability to say "Ok. We have enough features now."

    Seriously. Chris needs someone to sit next to him and wait for that sparkle in his eye to start and then yell no at him and hit him with a rolled up paper.


    I don't know if that's a flaw or if it's just the nature of creative people like CR, Garriott, and other developers that create these amazing game worlds we play in. I wonder how many artists crap up what would have otherwise been a good painting, sculpture, or other work of art because they just went so overboard in their passion to make it the perfect masterpiece that it either never got finished or was just a big unweildy mess when it was done. 


    As an artist I can answer that for you: All the time.

    There is always a desire to put just a bit more time, just a bit more detail, more colors here, another line there, and in the end it looks worse. I've gotten hours into a model project just to scrap it all out of frustration just because a single detail always looked wrong.

    The irony being that the same attention to detail that makes a good artist is the same attention to detail that costs time and money to redo something that would have been just fine.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    edited October 2015
    Iselin said:
    Distopia said:

    Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?



    Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
    Aside from the fact that I'm not a fan of over regulation on what is essentially a private affair between donor and recipient. What good would that really do? Most wouldn't know what they're looking at, secondly most wouldn't understand half the expenses in relation to a Dev studio, that would cause more confusion than we see now IMO.

    Being a private business is a choice companies make, a funding source is a funding source like any other. Be it private donation private investor or public investment. You're essentially stripping a company of choice on how to do business. One that is afforded to any other company in the US as far as I am aware..

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,924
    Axllow18 said:

    Seriously. Chris needs someone to sit next to him and wait for that sparkle in his eye to start and then yell no at him and hit him with a rolled up paper.
    That is what brothers are for, no ? ;-)

    Seems to me Erin and Chris together are a good team.


    Have fun


    PS:
    If you like space and spaceships ....and maybe you do, posting in this thread .....
    Go see "The Martian". Awesome movie, stunning visuals, good actors, great quotes.
    I think i have a new favorite : "I’m going to have to science the shit out of this...."

  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros Member EpicPosts: 2,924
    Distopia said:
    Iselin said:
    Distopia said:

    Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?



    Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
    Aside from the fact that I'm not a fan of over regulation on what is essentially a private affair between donor and recipient. WHat good would that really do, most wouldn't even know what they're looking at, secondly most wouldn't understand half the expenses in relation to a Dev studio, that would cause more confusion than we see now IMO.
    Over-regulating crowdfunding removes some of the incentive for a development studio to use it in the first place.  One of the reasons it's attractive for them is that they don't have to bend to please investors.

    I think the better approach would be to increase the awareness of what it means to pledge to a crowdfunded project.  It should be really drilled home that it's a donation not an investment and that if the project fails you will get nothing in return.  Then you let people take their chances and when they start to complain the project is taking too long you apologize for the delay and politely tell them to shut the fuck up.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Distopia said:
    Iselin said:
    Distopia said:

    Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?



    Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
    Aside from the fact that I'm not a fan of over regulation on what is essentially a private affair between donor and recipient. WHat good would that really do, most wouldn't even know what they're looking at, secondly most wouldn't understand half the expenses in relation to a Dev studio, that would cause more confusion than we see now IMO.
    Over-regulating crowdfunding removes some of the incentive for a development studio to use it in the first place.  One of the reasons it's attractive for them is that they don't have to bend to please investors.

    I think the better approach would be to increase the awareness of what it means to pledge to a crowdfunded project.  It should be really drilled home that it's a donation not an investment and that if the project fails you will get nothing in return.  Then you let people take their chances and when they start to complain the project is taking too long you apologize for the delay and politely tell them to shut the fuck up.
    That's just it, once it gets to a point that it's looking like a sham there are things that can be done. such as a class action lawsuit. Go down the list of possible crimes from there.


    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


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