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Star Citizen - Official Reply to layoff rumours

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Comments

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,232
    edited September 2015
    Jacxolope said:
    Is that permission to doxx? You would be okay with this?
    Thats a NO and a NO.


    Have fun


    PS:
    Doxxing is forbidden by law
    Post edited by Erillion on
  • JacxolopeJacxolope Member UncommonPosts: 1,140
    edited September 2015
    Erillion said:
    Jacxolope said:
    Is that permission to doxx? You would be okay with this?
    Thats a NO and a NO.


    Have fun
    I'm starting to have fun...You?

    EDIT- You never answered me from the other thread-

    What are your thoughts on the cancellation of 'meet the devs"? They said it was to 'retool video equipment" - is this more spin like 'streamlining"?

    Also, you seem grumpy today- Hope all is well.
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,232
    Jacxolope said:

    EDIT- You never answered me from the other thread-

    I did. You just missed it ;-)


    Have fun
  • JacxolopeJacxolope Member UncommonPosts: 1,140
    Erillion said:
    Jacxolope said:

    EDIT- You never answered me from the other thread-

    I did. You just missed it ;-)


    Have fun
    I know, you beat me to the draw, my mistake.  =P
  • Moguy3Moguy3 Member UncommonPosts: 70
    I am the real Derek Smart and I am standing up

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    jcrg99 said:
    jcrg99 said:
    Lol, really? It's public information (not sure what country you're from but FTC complaints are public knowledge).
    Now THAT is a big bullshit. You don't have any way to know who were the consumers who complained about whatever company for FTC. For obvious reasons.

    Why you are not answering with your "Erilion" account?
    lol
    Of course you do!  FTC complaints & investigations are public knowledge!!!!
    Oh! I see the confusion! You people are confusing consumers complaining to FTC with FTC opening an official complaint against a company. Now I see what you fanboys are trying to twist here to claim that Derek Smart lied.

    He filed a complaint. I filed a complaint. Other people filed complaints.
    FTC did not... yet... because these things take time and investigation...
    And that letter that the depressive guy tried to spread around, desperately trying to deceive people, does not mean that FTC did not start investigation yet.
    Search for records on FTC are on records of official complaints already opened by FTC... not investigations.
    Satisfied? Go figure.

    Prove a complaint was filed by Derek Smart.  Again, 100% public knowledge and making up some b.s. story doesn't change that simple fact.

    You're just being intellectually dishonest now.  Making up your own facts regarding how the FTC operates.

    Edit: Did just notice you're from Canada so will provide some slack.

    Please don't cut him any slack. He's definitely NOT from Canada. He's just like one of those people who sew a Canadian flag to their backpack while they're travelling through Europe. There is absolutely no way this guy is from Canada. First of all, his English is horrible. If the guy could put together two cohesive, partially-legible sentences then I might cut him some slack, but I still haven't seen any ability to do that, let alone make any sort of compelling, logical argument. 


    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130

    Kefo said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Axllow18 said:
    So from Laced and Jcrg99's responses I am seeing no evidence from the "SC is a scam" camp. (And Jc, Smart's blogs aren't evidence especially after he's been caught in several lies)

    So, from the pro-SC crowd? Any evidence that the accusations are false (aside from the FTC investigation being proven false and Smart's blogs being wildly inconsistent on his 'facts')?

    Also Laced did make a fair point. Though CIG does not LEGALLY have to account for their spending to the backers, what does it hurt for them to do so?

    I'll lay my cards on the table here, I lean more towards Derek being full of shit in this whole thing due to his past and the falsehoods he has already been caught in; however I do not see how CIG sharing even an aridged version of their spending or just a projection of future costs on the project to give backers an idea of where things stand as being a bad thing.

    So I guess I'd consider myself pro-SC. I think it's been shown in numerous cases that they are burning through enough money that I think it's foolish to believe it's a scam. Here's a chairman's letter: 
    https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14839-Letter-From-The-Chairman

    Their staff is quoted as being:
    "We have four development studios: Los Angeles, Austin, Wilmslow, UK and Frankfurt, Germany. Our internal headcount has gone from five at the end of 2012 to 59 at the end of 2013 to 183 at the end of 2014 and to 255 now. That’s some pretty huge growth. The turnover at CIG is no more or less than it was at Origin, EA, Digital Anvil or Microsoft when I was making games there."

    So if we were to take these numbers into consideration, starting with the end of 2012 and assuming the year-end number was that of the entire year and using an average salary of $70,000 annually, plus a 40% lkabor burden (which should be conservative). 
    2013 - $6 million burned
    2014 - $18 million burned
    2015 - $25 million burned

    So in the even that everything stays flat from here on out, that would put it at $100 million burned this time in 2017. If it continues at the current rate experienced between 2014 & 2015 then the numbers would look like this:
    2016 - $35 million burned
    2017 - $48.5 million burned

    So I think that what this shows is that it's much less of a scam and much more of a case of sustainability. I'm not speaking for the entire Pro-SC Camp, but what I'm saying is that SC will either fail or succeed. I'd much rather see the later, but if it fails, I'd rather see it fail on it's own and suffer whatever consequences come afterwards, rather than have to deal with bullshit had have plausible excuses as to why they weren't able to deliver (because of the Internet or people putting strain on their ability to deliver, etc). Honestly, I think that most of the people pounding their canes on the ground are people who don't even have vested interest in the project. Either that or people who have put money in just so they feel like they have a right to whine and bitch. 
    I think your numbers are a bit off.

    Assume 70,000 salary and 40% burden as you have said. Assuming I understand everything that would put each employee at 98,000 (70,000 * .4 = 28,000 which is then added onto the 70,000 for 98,000) so we will use that for calculations.

    This is all assuming that number stayed the same all year.

    2012 - 5 employees = 490.000 burned
    2013 - 59 employees = 5,782,000 + 490,000 = 6,272,000 burned
    2014 - 183 employees = 17,934,000 + 6,272,000 = 24,206,000 burned
    2015 - 255 employees = 24,990,000 + 24,206,000 = 49,196,000 burned

    future projections assuming 2015 numbers for employees

    2016 - 255 employees = 24,990,000 + 49,196,000 = 74,186,000 burned
    2017 - 255 employees = 24,990,000 + 74,186,000 = 99,176,000 burned

    Again that's just using 40% as a conservative number since typically its anywhere from 50% - 150%. If the number is anything higher then 75% then they are over budget with the current amount raised and out of money somewhere around Q3-Q4 2016

    Now putting aside any ideas that they are just keeping the money for themselves to get richer I would say Chris Roberts is right on track with his usual method of overpromise and go over budget.
    Yes, I was assuming linear growth based on the 2014-2015 growth number. You're right, though, if it were to level off then they are, technically, on target. I suppose assuming company growth remains linear, since it's already falling off, is a bit much. Yes, you're also right about labor burden. Actually, when I do estimates, currently, I use 100%. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    CrazKanuk said:
    jcrg99 said:
    jcrg99 said:
    Lol, really? It's public information (not sure what country you're from but FTC complaints are public knowledge).
    Now THAT is a big bullshit. You don't have any way to know who were the consumers who complained about whatever company for FTC. For obvious reasons.

    Why you are not answering with your "Erilion" account?
    lol
    Of course you do!  FTC complaints & investigations are public knowledge!!!!
    Oh! I see the confusion! You people are confusing consumers complaining to FTC with FTC opening an official complaint against a company. Now I see what you fanboys are trying to twist here to claim that Derek Smart lied.

    He filed a complaint. I filed a complaint. Other people filed complaints.
    FTC did not... yet... because these things take time and investigation...
    And that letter that the depressive guy tried to spread around, desperately trying to deceive people, does not mean that FTC did not start investigation yet.
    Search for records on FTC are on records of official complaints already opened by FTC... not investigations.
    Satisfied? Go figure.

    Prove a complaint was filed by Derek Smart.  Again, 100% public knowledge and making up some b.s. story doesn't change that simple fact.

    You're just being intellectually dishonest now.  Making up your own facts regarding how the FTC operates.

    Edit: Did just notice you're from Canada so will provide some slack.

    Please don't cut him any slack. He's definitely NOT from Canada. He's just like one of those people who sew a Canadian flag to their backpack while they're travelling through Europe. There is absolutely no way this guy is from Canada. First of all, his English is horrible. If the guy could put together two cohesive, partially-legible sentences then I might cut him some slack, but I still haven't seen any ability to do that, let alone make any sort of compelling, logical argument. 


    He might not have been born in Canada but that doesn't mean he can't now be a Canadian citizen. Mastery of the English language is not a prerequisite for being from Canada. Hell, just look at Quebec and the large portion who don't speak any English.
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Jacxolope said:
    Erillion said:
    dsmart said:
    For those of you who haven't yet figured out who "Erillion" is, I now know who he is. You shouldn't be surprised.

    Trying to think of how to handle it without coming across as  doxing. But seriously, the shilling makes now.
    You do ?

    *** grabs the popcorn ***


    Have fun
    Is that permission to doxx? You would be okay with this?

    *Grabs bigger tub of popcorn* laughs maniacally at Erillions tiny bag of popcorn while brandishing an overflowing tub of +7 'popcorn of ultimate chaos' salted with the tears of adbots.

    EDIT- At kefo above- Interesting take on the numbers. Also what about taxes and are you familiar with how crowdfunding money is taxed (is it taxed as income) ?
    I've no idea how crowd funded money needs to be reported for tax purposes and any "bonuses" that could come as a result of it. That would be more of a question for someone well versed in tax law. 
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    CrazKanuk said:

    Snipping for science!!!
    Yes, I was assuming linear growth based on the 2014-2015 growth number. You're right, though, if it were to level off then they are, technically, on target. I suppose assuming company growth remains linear, since it's already falling off, is a bit much. Yes, you're also right about labor burden. Actually, when I do estimates, currently, I use 100%. 
    Didn't they say they were expecting to get bigger by the end of this year? It's hard to say the cost of the labour burden since we don't know exactly how much CIG has to pay for each employee. 
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,232
    Kefo said:
    Didn't they say they were expecting to get bigger by the end of this year? It's hard to say the cost of the labour burden since we don't know exactly how much CIG has to pay for each employee. 

      According to Glassdoor CIG is "paying slightly below industry average", "with  decent medical benefits. +/- 401(k) not established yet, coming soon".

    The industry average can be found here:
    http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/computer-programmer/salary
    Please note the differences for certain countries, as CIG has studios in various countries with different averages.


    Have fun



  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    edited September 2015
    Kefo said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    jcrg99 said:
    jcrg99 said:
    Lol, really? It's public information (not sure what country you're from but FTC complaints are public knowledge).
    Now THAT is a big bullshit. You don't have any way to know who were the consumers who complained about whatever company for FTC. For obvious reasons.

    Why you are not answering with your "Erilion" account?
    lol
    Of course you do!  FTC complaints & investigations are public knowledge!!!!
    Oh! I see the confusion! You people are confusing consumers complaining to FTC with FTC opening an official complaint against a company. Now I see what you fanboys are trying to twist here to claim that Derek Smart lied.

    He filed a complaint. I filed a complaint. Other people filed complaints.
    FTC did not... yet... because these things take time and investigation...
    And that letter that the depressive guy tried to spread around, desperately trying to deceive people, does not mean that FTC did not start investigation yet.
    Search for records on FTC are on records of official complaints already opened by FTC... not investigations.
    Satisfied? Go figure.

    Prove a complaint was filed by Derek Smart.  Again, 100% public knowledge and making up some b.s. story doesn't change that simple fact.

    You're just being intellectually dishonest now.  Making up your own facts regarding how the FTC operates.

    Edit: Did just notice you're from Canada so will provide some slack.

    Please don't cut him any slack. He's definitely NOT from Canada. He's just like one of those people who sew a Canadian flag to their backpack while they're travelling through Europe. There is absolutely no way this guy is from Canada. First of all, his English is horrible. If the guy could put together two cohesive, partially-legible sentences then I might cut him some slack, but I still haven't seen any ability to do that, let alone make any sort of compelling, logical argument. 


    He might not have been born in Canada but that doesn't mean he can't now be a Canadian citizen. Mastery of the English language is not a prerequisite for being from Canada. Hell, just look at Quebec and the large portion who don't speak any English.

    By English, I am not talking about his ability to master the English language. I am more talking about making any argument that makes sense. That's not to say that there aren't Canadians who are insane or make completely insane arguments, but I would disclaim them as Canadians just as well. 

    My main complaint is that he continues to make senseless, unsubstantiated arguments which contribute nothing. Instead he'll claim everyone else is white knighting when, really, people are just waiting for something, anything, sensible. As far as prerequisites for being Canadian go, I believe that should be one. Otherwise it's dragging the rest of us down. 

    BTW, cool that you're in London. Actually pretty close to you. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • cormachcormach Member UncommonPosts: 89
    Here's one of the things I don't get. If there is something potentially criminal going on at CIG, why send a letter to Derek Smart of all people? Shouldn't that letter go to someone who has the ability to investigate, and find out what is really going on? If, as an employee, you think money is being fraudulently, a regular person has no power to fix that.

    If you as an employee disagree with who management is hiring, you have two choices: deal with it, or quit. Since it's a private company, they can hire and fire whoever they want. They can also open studios wherever they want. If you have purchased a game package/ship/item, that makes you an owner of the game package/ship/item, not an investor in the company.

    As an owner of a game package/ship/item, you can make any demands on them you want for them to open their books, explain their actions, or whatever. They don't have to do any of that if they do want to. If they open the books because you demand to know how much they have spent on cups (or whatever), that would set a precedent for them to explain any other issue that a game owner wants to know about. If you were an investor, that would be completely different.

    Two of the things I find really funny, is DS complaining about bugs and game delays. His latest game has been in development since either 2009 or 2010, depending on what you read and where you read it at, and has no defined release date, other than whenever he thinks it's ready.  His last games that I tried were bug infested, and wouldn't run for very long without crashing.  I think it's really funny to hear him complain about bugs in games. From reading the discussions on Steam, CIG has much more of a game already in Arena Commander than the current DS game.
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    CrazKanuk said:
    BTW, cool that you're in London. Actually pretty close to you. 
    lol yeah you are about 90 minutes from me. small world after all eh?
  • JacxolopeJacxolope Member UncommonPosts: 1,140
    cormach said:
    Here's one of the things I don't get. If there is something potentially criminal going on at CIG, why send a letter to Derek Smart of all people? Shouldn't that letter go to someone who has the ability to investigate, and find out what is really going on? If, as an employee, you think money is being fraudulently, a regular person has no power to fix that.

    If you as an employee disagree with who management is hiring, you have two choices: deal with it, or quit. Since it's a private company, they can hire and fire whoever they want. They can also open studios wherever they want. If you have purchased a game package/ship/item, that makes you an owner of the game package/ship/item, not an investor in the company.

    As an owner of a game package/ship/item, you can make any demands on them you want for them to open their books, explain their actions, or whatever. They don't have to do any of that if they do want to. If they open the books because you demand to know how much they have spent on cups (or whatever), that would set a precedent for them to explain any other issue that a game owner wants to know about. If you were an investor, that would be completely different.

    Two of the things I find really funny, is DS complaining about bugs and game delays. His latest game has been in development since either 2009 or 2010, depending on what you read and where you read it at, and has no defined release date, other than whenever he thinks it's ready.  His last games that I tried were bug infested, and wouldn't run for very long without crashing.  I think it's really funny to hear him complain about bugs in games. From reading the discussions on Steam, CIG has much more of a game already in Arena Commander than the current DS game.
    My understanding is that the letter was posted online first and then sent to derek Smart by an anon. 

    Anyhow, letter seems totally legit- if not we would have had a statement from the one whos name is being attributed to it. Nobody would let something like this be attached to their name if they didnt actually write it - they would deny it. however, admitting it would also be a mistake since it was never meant for the public and looks bad for an employee to say these things about an employer- past or present.

    So..we get what we have here.
    "No comment."

    Which in this case means its legit imho. 
  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,497
    Jacxolope said:
    My understanding is that the letter was posted online first and then sent to derek Smart by an anon. 

    Anyhow, letter seems totally legit- if not we would have had a statement from the one whos name is being attributed to it. Nobody would let something like this be attached to their name if they didnt actually write it - they would deny it. however, admitting it would also be a mistake since it was never meant for the public and looks bad for an employee to say these things about an employer- past or present.

    So..we get what we have here.
    "No comment."

    Which in this case means its legit imho. 

    Are you referring to the letter complaining about all the micro-management?
    The guy confirmed that he wrote it, he stated that it was meant to be a private or internal letter but one of the recipients forwarded it to Smart.
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,232
    Here is a recent Ben Lesnick (CIG Dev) post on the hiring situation in Austin (the OP believed that the main studio was moved from Austin to California and Ben answers him. OP wished CIG would have its main studio in eastern USA). I guess this Austin job situation had an effect in the recent restructuring of CIG studios.

    "Clarification there - Chris and company have been in Los Angeles/Santa Monica since (before) the start of the project. We opened the office in Austin because there's plenty of great talent in Austin. (That backfired a bit, since EA managed to turn SWOTOR around and then opened a sports studio... which meant that the competition for people was a lot stronger than we'd expected.)

    I moved first from Washington DC to Austin and then to Santa Monica, so I'd personally also have been happy if we were on the east coast. :)"

    For backers with forum access:
    https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/5668095/#Comment_5668095


    Have fun

  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    I'm sure Chris Roberts is a demanding boss - and he might very well have issues communicating everything that's in his head. But look at what he's trying to create - and look at his past games.

    You don't create innovative games by doing things the easy way - and it's definitely not for everyone to be a part of this kind of project. It will no doubt have a lot of hardship and wasted time involved - because it's not exactly easy to do.

    He's always pushed the envelope and ALL his past games have been doing the same kind of thing. Even the troubled development of Freelancer gave us a great space game, in my opinion.

    Ok, so his movie sucked - but this is a game we're talking about.


  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,232
    DKLond said:

    Ok, so his movie sucked - but this is a game we're talking about.
    I guess you mean "Wing Commander".

    However, I am a fan of "Lord of War". Its a truely amazing feat to make a movie with Nicolas Cage that does NOT suck.


    Have fun
  • DKLondDKLond Member RarePosts: 2,273
    edited September 2015
    Erillion said:
    DKLond said:

    Ok, so his movie sucked - but this is a game we're talking about.
    I guess you mean "Wing Commander".

    However, I am a fan of "Lord of War". Its a truely amazing feat to make a movie with Nicolas Cage that does NOT suck.


    Have fun
    We both know you don't have to guess.

    He directed Wing Commander - and is obviously responsible for most of it, which is what I think makes it "his".

    I haven't seen Lord of War - but I can't recognise it as his film because he was one of a long line of producers.

    As such, I think it's pretty irrelevant here.
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Kefo said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    BTW, cool that you're in London. Actually pretty close to you. 
    lol yeah you are about 90 minutes from me. small world after all eh?
    Actually, I live closer to Woodstock now...... I'm just lazy and haven't updated my profile :)

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • BrenicsBrenics Member RarePosts: 1,939
    I'm not perfect but I'm always myself!

    Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event


    4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.

    http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/

    Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!

  • apanz3rapanz3r Member UncommonPosts: 273
    Well if you are in EU you can ask for a refund and obtain it. Burning at a rate of 3.5 mil/month that money won't last too long.
  • DijonCyanideDijonCyanide Member UncommonPosts: 586
    I'm still hoping that this game is eventually created & is spectacular!  I'll concede I haven't invested any $ into it though, but that isn't b'c of this particular game, company, etcetera.  It's out of principle.  I just like to know as well as possible if I'm buying something what I am buying.  Again, though I hope this game succeeds.  I can only imagine how this would play with a VR headset. 
  • AethaerynAethaeryn Member RarePosts: 3,104
    CrazKanuk said:
    Kefo said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    BTW, cool that you're in London. Actually pretty close to you. 
    lol yeah you are about 90 minutes from me. small world after all eh?
    Actually, I live closer to Woodstock now...... I'm just lazy and haven't updated my profile :)
    Ha, I just moved into that area :)    I should check my profile. . . . 

    Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!

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