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Star Citizen - Official Reply to layoff rumours

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Comments

  • jcrg99jcrg99 Member UncommonPosts: 723
    edited September 2015
    jcrg99 said:
    Lol, really? It's public information (not sure what country you're from but FTC complaints are public knowledge).
    Now THAT is a big bullshit. You don't have any way to know who were the consumers who complained about whatever company for FTC. For obvious reasons.

    Why you are not answering with your "Erilion" account?
    lol
    Of course you do!  FTC complaints & investigations are public knowledge!!!!
    Oh! I see the confusion! You people are confusing consumers complaining to FTC with FTC opening an official complaint against a company. Now I see what you fanboys are trying to twist here to claim that Derek Smart lied.

    He filed a complaint. I filed a complaint. Other people filed complaints.
    FTC did not... yet... because these things take time and investigation...
    And that letter that the depressive guy tried to spread around, desperately trying to deceive people, does not mean that FTC did not start investigation yet.
    Search for records on FTC are on records of official complaints already opened by FTC... not investigations.
    Satisfied? Go figure.

  • SlothnChunkSlothnChunk Member UncommonPosts: 788
    Jacxolope said:
    Jacxolope said:
    Jacxolope said:
    jcrg99 said:


    It's called patronage.  Don't gift money to an idea or project if you suspect you will demand unprecedented levels of transparency.  That's on the patron and their unrealistic 'demands' and sense of entitlement.
    Hey man. People are talking about United States. Not the SlothnChunk country where his president SlothnChunck applies what he thinks that matter is, regardless what the authorities would say.

    You can have influence there, maybe, but not in United States

    And crowdfunding with rewards is a sale ;)

    You are not gifting money when rewards were promised to you.

    But that maybe does not apply in the SlothnChunk country. So, thanks to let me know how that works in that place.
    Eh fanboys gunna fanboy....

    This guy claims accountability is a big waste of time and evidently its okay for CIG to say they will provide it and then renig on the contract -And-- making ships for sale on a late game is fine because 'its not the same department' but having the CPA's who are already retained print out an itemization is too much work and money and will slow down the game .

    CR could punch this guys grandma in the head and he would say "the bitch deserved it"

    cannot argue with the willfully blind.

    Cult mentality bro-

    With [people like him you just have to say 'wait and see" or it becomes a pointless, circular argument . If one shows they ignore all logic in their utter defense of something then you just move on. Some cases are hopeless.
    I would argue that this unprecedented level of transparency which is 'demanded' would be a hindrance to any developer.  There is a reason why the average developer says nothing until the game is ready for release or beta with NDAs.
    Okay- But a "regular developer" is totally transparent. I can look up all the information about finances in any traded company and if I'm a shareholder they send me that shit without my even looking for it. You act as if we are asking for something that no other company does.

    Second- Even if it did slow down the already crawling game development- Why was it promised and the TOS changed overnight? is it okay for a car company to sell you a car with the promise of a fantastic waaranty and the next day change it once you drive off the lot? is this okay? Honoring the warranty will cost time and money but it was part of the sale and cannot be changed.

    Third- if having a CPA/Attorney or whoever  (who is already retained) give us the accountability promised in the first TOS will"slow the game down"- What about all the ships they are selling? is that slowing the game down?
    So you knew Blizzard was canceling Titan? Or CCP canceling World of Darkness?

    No way.  And there is a reason why the keep it close to the chest even when they are public companies....they don't want to have to deal with all these distractions shown here.

    And if I were SC I would honestly show even less because you can't appease these people.  The second they are given a piece of information they demand more.

    I honestly view that as waste of time for a developer to attempt to appease.
    Man...I'm not trying to get drawn in with someone who lacks all logic and objectivity but....

    No- I dont know the exact details but I know the finances. When the CEO of Ford motor Company (i'm a shareholder) said he would work for $1.00/year back when stock was selling for $5.00/share I knew he was a liar 6 months later when OI received a breakdown of company finances which outlined his salary, stock options and even the company car he was given.

    Whats CR make? is his wife working there? Whats she make? Where is the money going? is he really flying around in a private jet? is that 13K/month home (or whatever it is) being paid for from company fiunds or his own pocket?

    How many hired this year? Fired? Whats thew salary of the current employees?Overhead? taxes? burn rate? Shrink?


    these are questions we would have answers to. Which almost all companies in the multi million dollar range provide.


    You would only find out those answers to public traded companies.  But that doesn't apply to private ones (like Bethesda/ZeniMax, for example) and SC.

    And those publicly traded video game companies keep development history very secret until they feel like talking about it.

    Again, don't gift money to a company and then in return expect some new standard in accountability. It hasn't happened and not sure why anyone thought it would.
  • JacxolopeJacxolope Member UncommonPosts: 1,140
    edited September 2015
    I doubt we'll see the FTC involved anytime soon.

    I know people have filed complaints but its early yet and nothing is clear cut.

    I think CIG'll pull off a "game"before anything gets started- The game they'll pull off wont be pretty but will probably fulfill anything they are legally obliged to fulfill and stop all the digging in its tracks.
  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    edited September 2015
    Jacxolope said:

    So you knew Blizzard was canceling Titan? Or CCP canceling World of Darkness?

    No way.  And there is a reason why the keep it close to the chest even when they are public companies....they don't want to have to deal with all these distractions shown here.

    And if I were SC I would honestly show even less because you can't appease these people.  The second they are given a piece of information they demand more.

    I honestly view that as waste of time for a developer to attempt to appease.
    Man...I'm not trying to get drawn in with someone who lacks all logic and objectivity but....

    No- I dont know the exact details but I know the finances. When the CEO of Ford motor Company (i'm a shareholder) said he would work for $1.00/year back when stock was selling for $5.00/share I knew he was a liar 6 months later when OI received a breakdown of company finances which outlined his salary, stock options and even the company car he was given.

    Whats CR make? is his wife working there? Whats she make? Where is the money going? is he really flying around in a private jet? is that 13K/month home (or whatever it is) being paid for from company fiunds or his own pocket?

    How many hired this year? Fired? Whats thew salary of the current employees?Overhead? taxes? burn rate? Shrink?


    these are questions we would have answers to. Which almost all companies in the multi million dollar range provide.



    Let these jokers tell it ... contributers "gifted" Chris Roberts 100 MILLION dollars to do with as he pleases ... and we peons best not even try and venture to ask what he has done with it lest we be nailed to the cross and burned!
  • SlothnChunkSlothnChunk Member UncommonPosts: 788
    jcrg99 said:
    jcrg99 said:
    Lol, really? It's public information (not sure what country you're from but FTC complaints are public knowledge).
    Now THAT is a big bullshit. You don't have any way to know who were the consumers who complained about whatever company for FTC. For obvious reasons.

    Why you are not answering with your "Erilion" account?
    lol
    Of course you do!  FTC complaints & investigations are public knowledge!!!!
    Oh! I see the confusion! You people are confusing consumers complaining to FTC with FTC opening an official complaint against a company. Now I see what you fanboys are trying to twist here to claim that Derek Smart lied.

    He filed a complaint. I filed a complaint. Other people filed complaints.
    FTC did not... yet... because these things take time and investigation...
    And that letter that the depressive guy tried to spread around, desperately trying to deceive people, does not mean that FTC did not start investigation yet.
    Search for records on FTC are on records of official complaints already opened by FTC... not investigations.
    Satisfied? Go figure.

    Prove a complaint was filed by Derek Smart.  Again, 100% public knowledge and making up some b.s. story doesn't change that simple fact.

    You're just being intellectually dishonest now.  Making up your own facts regarding how the FTC operates.

    Edit: Did just notice you're from Canada so will provide some slack.
  • jcrg99jcrg99 Member UncommonPosts: 723
    edited September 2015
    Jacxolope said:
    I doubt we'll see the FTC involved anytime soon.

    I know people have filed complaints but its early yet and nothing is clear cut.

    I think CIG'll pull off a "game"before anything gets started- The game they'll pull off wont be pretty but will probably fulfill anything they are legally obliged to fulfill and stop all the digging in its tracks.
    I agree. Not because CIG is doing right. That is not the reason why their involvement is difficult so earlier.

    But they can't escape from a direct action of any consumer, unless be a consumer very idiot with SlothnChuck as his attorney, like trying to file a lawsuit for the wrong reason.
  • JacxolopeJacxolope Member UncommonPosts: 1,140
    Jacxolope said:
    Jacxolope said:
    Jacxolope said:
    jcrg99 said:


    It's called patronage.  Don't gift money to an idea or project if you suspect you will demand unprecedented levels of transparency.  That's on the patron and their unrealistic 'demands' and sense of entitlement.
    Hey man. People are talking about United States. Not the SlothnChunk country where his president SlothnChunck applies what he thinks that matter is, regardless what the authorities would say.

    You can have influence there, maybe, but not in United States

    And crowdfunding with rewards is a sale ;)

    You are not gifting money when rewards were promised to you.

    But that maybe does not apply in the SlothnChunk country. So, thanks to let me know how that works in that place.
    Eh fanboys gunna fanboy....

    This guy claims accountability is a big waste of time and evidently its okay for CIG to say they will provide it and then renig on the contract -And-- making ships for sale on a late game is fine because 'its not the same department' but having the CPA's who are already retained print out an itemization is too much work and money and will slow down the game .

    CR could punch this guys grandma in the head and he would say "the bitch deserved it"

    cannot argue with the willfully blind.

    Cult mentality bro-

    With [people like him you just have to say 'wait and see" or it becomes a pointless, circular argument . If one shows they ignore all logic in their utter defense of something then you just move on. Some cases are hopeless.
    I would argue that this unprecedented level of transparency which is 'demanded' would be a hindrance to any developer.  There is a reason why the average developer says nothing until the game is ready for release or beta with NDAs.
    Okay- But a "regular developer" is totally transparent. I can look up all the information about finances in any traded company and if I'm a shareholder they send me that shit without my even looking for it. You act as if we are asking for something that no other company does.

    Second- Even if it did slow down the already crawling game development- Why was it promised and the TOS changed overnight? is it okay for a car company to sell you a car with the promise of a fantastic waaranty and the next day change it once you drive off the lot? is this okay? Honoring the warranty will cost time and money but it was part of the sale and cannot be changed.

    Third- if having a CPA/Attorney or whoever  (who is already retained) give us the accountability promised in the first TOS will"slow the game down"- What about all the ships they are selling? is that slowing the game down?
    So you knew Blizzard was canceling Titan? Or CCP canceling World of Darkness?

    No way.  And there is a reason why the keep it close to the chest even when they are public companies....they don't want to have to deal with all these distractions shown here.

    And if I were SC I would honestly show even less because you can't appease these people.  The second they are given a piece of information they demand more.

    I honestly view that as waste of time for a developer to attempt to appease.
    Man...I'm not trying to get drawn in with someone who lacks all logic and objectivity but....

    No- I dont know the exact details but I know the finances. When the CEO of Ford motor Company (i'm a shareholder) said he would work for $1.00/year back when stock was selling for $5.00/share I knew he was a liar 6 months later when OI received a breakdown of company finances which outlined his salary, stock options and even the company car he was given.

    Whats CR make? is his wife working there? Whats she make? Where is the money going? is he really flying around in a private jet? is that 13K/month home (or whatever it is) being paid for from company fiunds or his own pocket?

    How many hired this year? Fired? Whats thew salary of the current employees?Overhead? taxes? burn rate? Shrink?


    these are questions we would have answers to. Which almost all companies in the multi million dollar range provide.


    You would only find out those answers to public traded companies.  But that doesn't apply to private ones (like Bethesda/ZeniMax, for example) and SC.

    And those publicly traded video game companies keep development history very secret until they feel like talking about it.

    Again, don't gift money to a company and then in return expect some new standard in accountability. It hasn't happened and not sure why anyone thought it would.
    Yes I know that- But even private companies are up for scrutiny and transparency when they've taken 100 Million of the publics money and have yet to deliver much. especially when they themselves wrote it in the original TOS.

    I get what you're saying- its Apples and bannanas but THEY promised this and then backed out. With all the rumors flying around (many are probably untrue) they could clear it all up by doing what they said they would do before they changed the TOS.

    Them not doing anything when the rumors are flying, LOTS of people questioning , complaints to the FTC and on ripoffreports, leaked letters, firings and spin... It begins to look funny- Like maybe there is alot of truth to these rumors.

    they can clear it up by doing what they said they would do. Instead they ninja edited the TOS to push accountability to a point far in the future. That seems shady and there is probably a reason for it.
  • SlothnChunkSlothnChunk Member UncommonPosts: 788
    jcrg99 said:
    Jacxolope said:
    I doubt we'll see the FTC involved anytime soon.

    I know people have filed complaints but its early yet and nothing is clear cut.

    I think CIG'll pull off a "game"before anything gets started- The game they'll pull off wont be pretty but will probably fulfill anything they are legally obliged to fulfill and stop all the digging in its tracks.
    I agree. Not because CIG is doing right. That is not the reason why their involvement is difficult so earlier.

    But they can't escape from a direct action of any consumer, unless be a consumer very idiot with SlothnChuck as his attorney, like trying to file a lawsuit for the wrong reason.
    Crowdfunding isn't 'consumption'; it's patronage.  Again, why the FTC had to settle out of court on the only Kickstarter they ever attempted to prosecute.
  • jcrg99jcrg99 Member UncommonPosts: 723
    edited September 2015

    Again, don't gift money to a company and then in return expect some new standard in accountability. It hasn't happened and not sure why anyone thought it would.
    Most of people did not "gift" money to CIG. The only way to do that was through a 5 dollar donation level that they had.

    All others were not people gifting CIG. Was they giving money in exchange of rewards.... in other words... sales.

    About accountability, CIG promised that. So, stop to bring other meaningless examples. They are unrelated to this contract.
  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    edited September 2015
    jcrg99 said:
    Jacxolope said:
    I doubt we'll see the FTC involved anytime soon.

    I know people have filed complaints but its early yet and nothing is clear cut.

    I think CIG'll pull off a "game"before anything gets started- The game they'll pull off wont be pretty but will probably fulfill anything they are legally obliged to fulfill and stop all the digging in its tracks.
    I agree. Not because CIG is doing right. That is not the reason why their involvement is difficult so earlier.

    But they can't escape from a direct action of any consumer, unless be a consumer very idiot with SlothnChuck as his attorney, like trying to file a lawsuit for the wrong reason.
    Crowdfunding isn't 'consumption'; it's patronage.  Again, why the FTC had to settle out of court on the only Kickstarter they ever attempted to prosecute.

    Crowdfunding isn't 'consumption'; it's patronage.

    This is the irresponsible apologetic type talk attempting to justify a wrong that is going to doom the MMORPG crowd-funding movement.
  • jcrg99jcrg99 Member UncommonPosts: 723
    edited September 2015
    jcrg99 said:
    jcrg99 said:
    Lol, really? It's public information (not sure what country you're from but FTC complaints are public knowledge).
    Now THAT is a big bullshit. You don't have any way to know who were the consumers who complained about whatever company for FTC. For obvious reasons.

    Why you are not answering with your "Erilion" account?
    lol
    Of course you do!  FTC complaints & investigations are public knowledge!!!!
    Oh! I see the confusion! You people are confusing consumers complaining to FTC with FTC opening an official complaint against a company. Now I see what you fanboys are trying to twist here to claim that Derek Smart lied.

    He filed a complaint. I filed a complaint. Other people filed complaints.
    FTC did not... yet... because these things take time and investigation...
    And that letter that the depressive guy tried to spread around, desperately trying to deceive people, does not mean that FTC did not start investigation yet.
    Search for records on FTC are on records of official complaints already opened by FTC... not investigations.
    Satisfied? Go figure.

    Prove a complaint was filed by Derek Smart.  Again, 100% public knowledge and making up some b.s. story doesn't change that simple fact.

    You're just being intellectually dishonest now.  Making up your own facts regarding how the FTC operates.

    Edit: Did just notice you're from Canada so will provide some slack.
    No... It's not public knowledge WHO file complaints against companies. Its public knowledge when FTC opening complaints against companies. Can't you undestand the difference?
    lol

    So, here's you proof:


    So, now... can you ask apologizes for your lies and misinformatoin that Derek Smart lied about it?

    and also, I request you to prove that you can know, if, for example, I opened a complaint on FTC... because it is "public"... or you are done here, for good.

    Check mate.
    Post edited by jcrg99 on
  • SlothnChunkSlothnChunk Member UncommonPosts: 788
    jcrg99 said:

    Again, don't gift money to a company and then in return expect some new standard in accountability. It hasn't happened and not sure why anyone thought it would.
    Most of people did not "gift" money to CIG. The only way to do that was through a 5 dollar donation level that they have.

    All others were not people gifting CIG. Was they giving money in exchange of rewards.... in other words... sales.

    About accountability, CIG promised that. So, stop to bring other meaningless examples. They are unrelated to this contract.
    Buying a make believe spaceship for a digital video game in pre-alpha is a textbook definition of patronage.
  • SlothnChunkSlothnChunk Member UncommonPosts: 788
    jcrg99 said:
    jcrg99 said:
    jcrg99 said:
    Lol, really? It's public information (not sure what country you're from but FTC complaints are public knowledge).
    Now THAT is a big bullshit. You don't have any way to know who were the consumers who complained about whatever company for FTC. For obvious reasons.

    Why you are not answering with your "Erilion" account?
    lol
    Of course you do!  FTC complaints & investigations are public knowledge!!!!
    Oh! I see the confusion! You people are confusing consumers complaining to FTC with FTC opening an official complaint against a company. Now I see what you fanboys are trying to twist here to claim that Derek Smart lied.

    He filed a complaint. I filed a complaint. Other people filed complaints.
    FTC did not... yet... because these things take time and investigation...
    And that letter that the depressive guy tried to spread around, desperately trying to deceive people, does not mean that FTC did not start investigation yet.
    Search for records on FTC are on records of official complaints already opened by FTC... not investigations.
    Satisfied? Go figure.

    Prove a complaint was filed by Derek Smart.  Again, 100% public knowledge and making up some b.s. story doesn't change that simple fact.

    You're just being intellectually dishonest now.  Making up your own facts regarding how the FTC operates.

    Edit: Did just notice you're from Canada so will provide some slack.
    No... It's not public knowledge WHO file complaints against companies. Its public knowledge when FTC opening complaints against companies. Can't you undestand the difference?
    lol

    So, here's you proof:


    So, now... can you ask apologizes for your lies and misinformatoin that Derek Smart lied about it?

    and also, I request you to prove that you can know, if, for example, I opened a complaint on FTC asking them such information... or you are done here, for good.

    Check mate.
    The FTC keeps track of complaints not Derek Smart.

    Are you really that naive?
  • jcrg99jcrg99 Member UncommonPosts: 723
    edited September 2015
    jcrg99 said:

    Again, don't gift money to a company and then in return expect some new standard in accountability. It hasn't happened and not sure why anyone thought it would.
    Most of people did not "gift" money to CIG. The only way to do that was through a 5 dollar donation level that they have.

    All others were not people gifting CIG. Was they giving money in exchange of rewards.... in other words... sales.

    About accountability, CIG promised that. So, stop to bring other meaningless examples. They are unrelated to this contract.
    Buying a make believe spaceship for a digital video game in pre-alpha is a textbook definition of patronage.
    So, because its digital and/or do not exist yet, but its promised to be build (and in a certain time frame), "its patronage"? 
    lol

    Awesome Erillion, nice! You are only getting better.
    lol

  • SlothnChunkSlothnChunk Member UncommonPosts: 788
    jcrg99 said:
    jcrg99 said:

    Again, don't gift money to a company and then in return expect some new standard in accountability. It hasn't happened and not sure why anyone thought it would.
    Most of people did not "gift" money to CIG. The only way to do that was through a 5 dollar donation level that they have.

    All others were not people gifting CIG. Was they giving money in exchange of rewards.... in other words... sales.

    About accountability, CIG promised that. So, stop to bring other meaningless examples. They are unrelated to this contract.
    Buying a make believe spaceship for a digital video game in pre-alpha is a textbook definition of patronage.
    So, because its digital and/or do not exist yet, but its promised to be build (and in a certain time frame), "its patronage"? 
    lol

    Awesome Erillion, nice! You are only getting better.
    lol

    Patronage is a word in the English dictionary.  Try looking it up.

    Read Kickstarter itself...says very specifically you are funding common ideas/goals.
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,305
    edited September 2015
    jcrg99 said:
    jcrg99 said:
    jcrg99 said:
    Lol, really? It's public information (not sure what country you're from but FTC complaints are public knowledge).
    Now THAT is a big bullshit. You don't have any way to know who were the consumers who complained about whatever company for FTC. For obvious reasons.

    Why you are not answering with your "Erilion" account?
    lol
    Of course you do!  FTC complaints & investigations are public knowledge!!!!
    Oh! I see the confusion! You people are confusing consumers complaining to FTC with FTC opening an official complaint against a company. Now I see what you fanboys are trying to twist here to claim that Derek Smart lied.

    He filed a complaint. I filed a complaint. Other people filed complaints.
    FTC did not... yet... because these things take time and investigation...
    And that letter that the depressive guy tried to spread around, desperately trying to deceive people, does not mean that FTC did not start investigation yet.
    Search for records on FTC are on records of official complaints already opened by FTC... not investigations.
    Satisfied? Go figure.

    Prove a complaint was filed by Derek Smart.  Again, 100% public knowledge and making up some b.s. story doesn't change that simple fact.

    You're just being intellectually dishonest now.  Making up your own facts regarding how the FTC operates.

    Edit: Did just notice you're from Canada so will provide some slack.
    No... It's not public knowledge WHO file complaints against companies. Its public knowledge when FTC opening complaints against companies. Can't you undestand the difference?
    lol

    So, here's you proof:


    So, now... can you ask apologizes for your lies and misinformatoin that Derek Smart lied about it?

    and also, I request you to prove that you can know, if, for example, I opened a complaint on FTC... because it is "public"... or you are done here, for good.

    Check mate.
    Fuck....

     I almost choked on my cheerios.

    Thats your proof?  Really? You never fail to impress.

    Why don't you tell us a little bit about Toronto?

    ROFL

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • dsmartdsmart Member UncommonPosts: 386
    jcrg99 said:
    [mod edit]
    The evidences were all presented in many places already, including in the own blogs of Derek Smart, with statements of Federals, etc, offiicial information, press releases, etc.
    And for CIG breaking laws they were also presented ad nauseum.

    The basic problem is... people don't understand consumer issues. They are imagining that the kind of proof/evidence that a consumer have to gather to win a case, would be only possible with a CSI investigation. So, you are looking for solid evidences, when, for the issue itself, are in front of you, you just don't understand, or is not aware that what certain things that CIG made, are wrong and against the law, and contradict thoughts even of the Federals about crowdfunding, and what can be done, and what is plain abuse of consumers.

    Consumers do not need to get the DNA of Roberts to prove that were mislead.
    There are no Federal consumer 'protections' when it comes to crowdfunding due to the fact it's a form of patronage.
    You high right now?

    Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living.
    If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead
    ...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.

  • JacxolopeJacxolope Member UncommonPosts: 1,140
    edited September 2015
    dsmart said:
    jcrg99 said:
    [mod edit]
    The evidences were all presented in many places already, including in the own blogs of Derek Smart, with statements of Federals, etc, offiicial information, press releases, etc.
    And for CIG breaking laws they were also presented ad nauseum.

    The basic problem is... people don't understand consumer issues. They are imagining that the kind of proof/evidence that a consumer have to gather to win a case, would be only possible with a CSI investigation. So, you are looking for solid evidences, when, for the issue itself, are in front of you, you just don't understand, or is not aware that what certain things that CIG made, are wrong and against the law, and contradict thoughts even of the Federals about crowdfunding, and what can be done, and what is plain abuse of consumers.

    Consumers do not need to get the DNA of Roberts to prove that were mislead.
    There are no Federal consumer 'protections' when it comes to crowdfunding due to the fact it's a form of patronage.
    You high right now?
    I am, thats for damn sure =P

    Anyhow, about time you arrived- I heard you kick puppys for sport, trip old ladies when they walk down stairs, hate immigrants , punch midgets and harass  poor defenseless little girls...prolly an anti-vaxxer too.

    Any truth to this?

    You Sir, are Satan and nothing you say has relevance concerning anything since you are a bad ...bad...bad man.

    Please leave before you trigger SC supporters with your evil campaign of hate and persecution against the savior.

    How dare you ask for accountability...How dare you...

    thank you.


  • dsmartdsmart Member UncommonPosts: 386
    For those of you who haven't yet figured out who "Erillion" is, I now know who he is. You shouldn't be surprised.

    Trying to think of how to handle it without coming across as  doxing. But seriously, the shilling makes now.

    Game developers are just human beings who happen to make games for a living.
    If you want to hold us up to higher standards of conduct, then go ahead
    ...but don't be surprised if we don't uphold them.

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,305
    dsmart said:
    For those of you who haven't yet figured out who "Erillion" is, I now know who he is. You shouldn't be surprised.

    Trying to think of how to handle it without coming across as  doxing. But seriously, the shilling makes now.
    Why don't you start with jcrg99 

    Enquiring minds would like to know.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • JacxolopeJacxolope Member UncommonPosts: 1,140
    dsmart said:
    For those of you who haven't yet figured out who "Erillion" is, I now know who he is. You shouldn't be surprised.

    Trying to think of how to handle it without coming across as  doxing. But seriously, the shilling makes now.
    He told me hes just an average joe wage-slaving in the EU 10 hours a day and posting with his smart phone-

    You mean *gasp* maybe that isnt exactly the truth and some relevant information may have been withheld. that maybe there is a conflict of  interest here?

    Wow. I'd be curious to know more. Wonder if mmorpg.com could do some digging since its in very bad taste to represent yourself as a mere fan if your ties are closer than mere fanhood.

    Amirite?
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    jcrg99 said:
    Read the actual case on the government's website.  You're just being intellectually dishonest now.

    https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2015/06/crowdfunding-project-creator-settles-ftc-charges-deception

    Oh! I am dishonest... look ... from the link that you brought:

    'Under the settlement order, Chevalier is prohibited from making misrepresentations about any crowdfunding campaign and from failing to honor stated refund policies. He is also barred from disclosing or otherwise benefiting from customers’ personal information, and failing to dispose of such information properly. The order imposes a $111,793.71 judgment that will be suspended due to Chevalier’s inability to pay. The full amount will become due immediately if he is found to have misrepresented his financial condition."

    Trying to see in what this is different to what I quoted before
    lol
    Reading comprehension is a good skill to have:
    - It was an out of court settlement because he didn't actually violate an actual Federal statute
    - No admission of guilt
    - No barred from establishing crowdfunding projects in the future
    - And paid $0 because there was no money left

    LOL!!!! THAT'S the PRECEDENT? Are you f*&)& kidding me?
    You may want to read the document you linked and not just the findings part of it.

    It wasn't an out of court settlement since the judge ordered him to pay 111,793.11 dollars to the FTC.

    They did suspend the payments because of financial issues not because there was no money left. They don't give a shit if he didn't have any crowdfunding money left over. If they find out he lied in anyway about his financial situation he has to pay them the 111.793.71 with interest and it is due immediatly.

    He neither confirmed nor denyed guilt but since the judge ordered him to pay that much money I would say they found him guilty.

    Its true he can open another crowd funding campaign but not only does he have to issue a copy of the court order to every single employee but also everyone who gives him money stating the facts from this case and they have to give written consent that he is allowed to continue.....for the next 18 years.

    Also the FTC is allowed to deposition him at any time, interview any employee he might have in the future as long as they agree, and they can request any financial statement they want that he needs to comply with within a very short time period.....for the next 18 years.

    The FTC also has access to his social security number so they can monitor any money he brings in. They also require him to notify them within 14 days if he changes any single scrap of information such as name, address, employment changes, etc....for the next 18 years.

    I would say that is a nice precedent to have to help discourage future scammers. You screw up in any little way for the next 18 years and its probably jail time for you.
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    CrazKanuk said:
    Axllow18 said:
    So from Laced and Jcrg99's responses I am seeing no evidence from the "SC is a scam" camp. (And Jc, Smart's blogs aren't evidence especially after he's been caught in several lies)

    So, from the pro-SC crowd? Any evidence that the accusations are false (aside from the FTC investigation being proven false and Smart's blogs being wildly inconsistent on his 'facts')?

    Also Laced did make a fair point. Though CIG does not LEGALLY have to account for their spending to the backers, what does it hurt for them to do so?

    I'll lay my cards on the table here, I lean more towards Derek being full of shit in this whole thing due to his past and the falsehoods he has already been caught in; however I do not see how CIG sharing even an aridged version of their spending or just a projection of future costs on the project to give backers an idea of where things stand as being a bad thing.

    So I guess I'd consider myself pro-SC. I think it's been shown in numerous cases that they are burning through enough money that I think it's foolish to believe it's a scam. Here's a chairman's letter: 
    https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14839-Letter-From-The-Chairman

    Their staff is quoted as being:
    "We have four development studios: Los Angeles, Austin, Wilmslow, UK and Frankfurt, Germany. Our internal headcount has gone from five at the end of 2012 to 59 at the end of 2013 to 183 at the end of 2014 and to 255 now. That’s some pretty huge growth. The turnover at CIG is no more or less than it was at Origin, EA, Digital Anvil or Microsoft when I was making games there."

    So if we were to take these numbers into consideration, starting with the end of 2012 and assuming the year-end number was that of the entire year and using an average salary of $70,000 annually, plus a 40% lkabor burden (which should be conservative). 
    2013 - $6 million burned
    2014 - $18 million burned
    2015 - $25 million burned

    So in the even that everything stays flat from here on out, that would put it at $100 million burned this time in 2017. If it continues at the current rate experienced between 2014 & 2015 then the numbers would look like this:
    2016 - $35 million burned
    2017 - $48.5 million burned

    So I think that what this shows is that it's much less of a scam and much more of a case of sustainability. I'm not speaking for the entire Pro-SC Camp, but what I'm saying is that SC will either fail or succeed. I'd much rather see the later, but if it fails, I'd rather see it fail on it's own and suffer whatever consequences come afterwards, rather than have to deal with bullshit had have plausible excuses as to why they weren't able to deliver (because of the Internet or people putting strain on their ability to deliver, etc). Honestly, I think that most of the people pounding their canes on the ground are people who don't even have vested interest in the project. Either that or people who have put money in just so they feel like they have a right to whine and bitch. 
    I think your numbers are a bit off.

    Assume 70,000 salary and 40% burden as you have said. Assuming I understand everything that would put each employee at 98,000 (70,000 * .4 = 28,000 which is then added onto the 70,000 for 98,000) so we will use that for calculations.

    This is all assuming that number stayed the same all year.

    2012 - 5 employees = 490.000 burned
    2013 - 59 employees = 5,782,000 + 490,000 = 6,272,000 burned
    2014 - 183 employees = 17,934,000 + 6,272,000 = 24,206,000 burned
    2015 - 255 employees = 24,990,000 + 24,206,000 = 49,196,000 burned

    future projections assuming 2015 numbers for employees

    2016 - 255 employees = 24,990,000 + 49,196,000 = 74,186,000 burned
    2017 - 255 employees = 24,990,000 + 74,186,000 = 99,176,000 burned

    Again that's just using 40% as a conservative number since typically its anywhere from 50% - 150%. If the number is anything higher then 75% then they are over budget with the current amount raised and out of money somewhere around Q3-Q4 2016

    Now putting aside any ideas that they are just keeping the money for themselves to get richer I would say Chris Roberts is right on track with his usual method of overpromise and go over budget.
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,232
    dsmart said:
    For those of you who haven't yet figured out who "Erillion" is, I now know who he is. You shouldn't be surprised.

    Trying to think of how to handle it without coming across as  doxing. But seriously, the shilling makes now.
    You do ?

    *** grabs the popcorn ***


    Have fun
  • JacxolopeJacxolope Member UncommonPosts: 1,140
    edited September 2015
    Erillion said:
    dsmart said:
    For those of you who haven't yet figured out who "Erillion" is, I now know who he is. You shouldn't be surprised.

    Trying to think of how to handle it without coming across as  doxing. But seriously, the shilling makes now.
    You do ?

    *** grabs the popcorn ***


    Have fun
    Is that permission to doxx? You would be okay with this?

    *Grabs bigger tub of popcorn* laughs maniacally at Erillions tiny bag of popcorn while brandishing an overflowing tub of +7 'popcorn of ultimate chaos' salted with the tears of adbots.

    EDIT- At kefo above- Interesting take on the numbers. Also what about taxes and are you familiar with how crowdfunding money is taxed (is it taxed as income) ?
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