Strange, I've never donated $15 and I can post there. Sounds like more anti-Pantheon propaganda. I'm amazed you didn't draw some parallel to something someone from Pathfinder online did.
How much have you donated?
PS: For the record, I'm not pro-or anti Pantheon. I actually pledged to the Kickstarter:
$45 pledged
Reward: $45
Explorer's Pledge -
Seeker's rewards, PLUS: Alpha invite, Digital copy of the game (including 30 days of game time), and the in-game title “Pantheon Explorer!"
Pledged
Jan 13 2014
But you are right, crazy echo-chamber fandom will have this game end up just like PFO did.
What you're saying is that your assumption was wrong, yet because I corrected you Pantheon must be an echo chamber.
Got it.
I started a $5 sub almost a year ago and have been able to post ever since.
Honestly salaciouscrumbs, I don't think anyone disagrees that having an open forum will benefit VR/Pantheon and its community when the time is right. I just don't think that time is now. Like you said, Brad and VR's reputations are both improving with each passing day, and the time will come when much of the naysaying will come to an end, but right now, there is still some animosity and doubt surrounding Pantheon and Brad.
I believe when that doubt subsides and old friends are willing to forgive and forget past mistakes, the doors will open and everyone will be able to participate.
I'm glad I won you over to the open forums idea. Those links regarding participation marketing helped, I hope.
I agree that the time must be right. Before today the new website, I would agree with you that the time was a little premature.
Now, however, the time is perfect! My instincts tell me that the new website and update are going to be the catalyst.
Even rerolled.org is in agreement that if the kickstarter had been engaged with the current website and information, it would have been successful. And these guys were some of the biggest detractors.
And this is after only 1 day. The time is now to start building brand loyalty and membership.
"The time is now to start building brand loyalty and membership."
... and I believe your post does an excellent job or delineating the fact that they are achieving exactly that without feeling the need to open their website to everyone. You are underestimating the negative impact that trolls would have on the community website. Especially with a game involving Brad McQuaid.
Laced you need to have some faith in moderators. It's really not that hard to ban people.
Also, I don't feel like a participating member whatsoever. I feel alienated from the official community, but desperately wanting the game to succeed. I'm advocating for the game at this point because I believe that Pantheon has a critical opportunity in the next few weeks and months.
I want the game to succeed, but that in no way equates to me feeling like an official member of the community, which I am definitely not. If I can't become an official member at no cost, I know that I'll lose-steam and feel marginalized soon enough. I'll buy the game when it comes out, but I doubt I'll spend any more time trying to persuade others when I'm not even considered good enough to be an official member.
That's seems pretty much how they want it at this time. Buy the game when it comes or invest now to have a say.
No matter what happens it will end the same way. People will try the game when it comes out, if it's a good game they will stay, if not they will leave.
I really don't see anything about the game that really sets it apart from anything that's out now. From what I see in their videos and reviews it's not worth a sub. lots of games coming out wanting to be old school hardcore which imo actually works against them because that target audience is small. Most of the games that have tried that are empty or gone.
Not to derail further, but what games have tried "old school hardcore" and failed? Which current games have even a shadow of similarity to Pantheon? Which games in the future claim to offer what Pantheon plans to offer?
Saga of Lucima is offering alot of the same as is Revival. Patheon's premise when it first was revealed was unique but other games in development are starting to catch up. As a matter of fact I think Saga of Lucima's no class premise, but plays like EQ is actually on to something.
Both of those games will be quite different. Saga a little more alike, but I personally believe their no class system will be their downfall. That pretty much never ends well. I'm not going to bash the game, but I just wasn't that impressed with what they've proposed thus far. It seems short sighted, claiming to be like EQ while not demonstrating an understanding of very important concepts that actually made the game great.
Revival calls itself oldschool and hardcore yes, but there is actually no game akin to it. Its quite unique, but the only similarity is seems to share at this point is that they want to make a harder game revolving more around teamwork. Otherwise, almost completely different.
Strange, I've never donated $15 and I can post there. Sounds like more anti-Pantheon propaganda. I'm amazed you didn't draw some parallel to something someone from Pathfinder online did.
How much have you donated?
PS: For the record, I'm not pro-or anti Pantheon. I actually pledged to the Kickstarter:
$45 pledged
Reward: $45
Explorer's Pledge -
Seeker's rewards, PLUS: Alpha invite, Digital copy of the game (including 30 days of game time), and the in-game title “Pantheon Explorer!"
Pledged
Jan 13 2014
But you are right, crazy echo-chamber fandom will have this game end up just like PFO did.
What you're saying is that your assumption was wrong, yet because I corrected you Pantheon must be an echo chamber.
Got it.
I started a $5 sub almost a year ago and have been able to post ever since.
Perhaps you simply do not understand.
If you lock forums and only hear what "fans" say. This is the echo-chamber. It has nothing at all to do with what you or anyone else posts here on MMORPG. It has EVERYTHING to do with isolating developers from reality by surrounding them with a small group of people who see everything through rose-colored glasses.
I'm sure you believe that Pantheon is special and will be immune to that effect. There is always a possibility you are right. The vast likelihood, based on history... is that you are wrong. Time will tell. I hope you are right and can come back here in a few years and point it out.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Its certainly a good thing that the Pantheon team has internet which allows them to visit places other than pantheonmmo.com . You do realize developers, artists and the community manager from Pantheon read and post on this forum as well?
Its certainly a good thing that the Pantheon team has internet which allows them to visit places other than pantheonmmo.com . You do realize developers, artists and the community manager from Pantheon read and post on this forum as well?
As you so kindly mentioned above... Sure did work for PFO
I mean, by that logic they shouldn't even have forums for their game.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
If you lock forums and only hear what "fans" say. This is the echo-chamber. It has nothing at all to do with what you or anyone else posts here on MMORPG. It has EVERYTHING to do with isolating developers from reality by surrounding them with a small group of people who see everything through rose-colored glasses.
I'm sure you believe that Pantheon is special and will be immune to that effect. There is always a possibility you are right. The vast likelihood, based on history... is that you are wrong. Time will tell. I hope you are right and can come back here in a few years and point it out.
It's not even what just the fans say, it's what only people who are already sold say..I do have to agree with the echo-chamber comparison, that's essentially what it is. I'm not sure why a dev team would want nothing but yes men around.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Pick a thread on any major topic and you will find plenty of debate. They have a vast array of differing opinions, but the difference is we all agree on the same underlying premise.
If you lock forums and only hear what "fans" say. This is the echo-chamber. It has nothing at all to do with what you or anyone else posts here on MMORPG. It has EVERYTHING to do with isolating developers from reality by surrounding them with a small group of people who see everything through rose-colored glasses.
I'm sure you believe that Pantheon is special and will be immune to that effect. There is always a possibility you are right. The vast likelihood, based on history... is that you are wrong. Time will tell. I hope you are right and can come back here in a few years and point it out.
It's not even what just the fans say, it's what only people who are already sold say..I do have to agree with the echo-chamber comparison, that's essentially what it is. I'm not sure why a dev team would want nothing but yes men around.
Because it allows them to only deal with happy people, and makes those folks more likely to spend more money. It also colors the view of perspective purchasers who visit there as a first look at the product. If all they see are posts saying how awesome everything is, they are more likely to buy it themselves.
It's fine if that's what it is used as (marketing tool) , but when developers actually believe the smoke being blown up their collective asses, no good can come of it.
It's actually possible to create a Garden of Eden playground for the diehards to isolate themselves and pat each other on the back and still create a successful game... but it hinges on the Devs actually ignoring most of that praise and actually getting critical feedback from multiple sources.
Diehard fans have ruined FAR more games than any negative poster ever has.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Pick a thread on any major topic and you will find plenty of debate. They have a vast array of differing opinions, but the difference is we all agree on the same underlying premise.
That may be the case, but what I find worrying is something that's been said over and over again, "they have a vision" and the argument against anyone mucking that up by opening up their forums... isn't that essentially the text book example of yes men?
uncompromising vision isn't always a good thing.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Pick a thread on any major topic and you will find plenty of debate. They have a vast array of differing opinions, but the difference is we all agree on the same underlying premise.
That may be the case, but what I find worrying is something that's been said over and over again, "they have a vision" and the argument against anyone mucking that up by opening up their forums... isn't that essentially the text book example of yes men?
uncompromising vision isn't always a good thing.
The forums are very far from "yes men" just by reading the public forums you can see that. In fact every time information is revealed it is debated about fervently.
Pick a thread on any major topic and you will find plenty of debate. They have a vast array of differing opinions, but the difference is we all agree on the same underlying premise.
That may be the case, but what I find worrying is something that's been said over and over again, "they have a vision" and the argument against anyone mucking that up by opening up their forums... isn't that essentially the text book example of yes men?
uncompromising vision isn't always a good thing.
The forums are very far from "yes men" just by reading the public forums you can see that. In fact every time information is revealed it is debated about fervently.
I was referring to a negative view on people questioning a vision.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If you lock forums and only hear what "fans" say. This is the echo-chamber. It has nothing at all to do with what you or anyone else posts here on MMORPG. It has EVERYTHING to do with isolating developers from reality by surrounding them with a small group of people who see everything through rose-colored glasses.
I'm sure you believe that Pantheon is special and will be immune to that effect. There is always a possibility you are right. The vast likelihood, based on history... is that you are wrong. Time will tell. I hope you are right and can come back here in a few years and point it out.
It's not even what just the fans say, it's what only people who are already sold say..I do have to agree with the echo-chamber comparison, that's essentially what it is. I'm not sure why a dev team would want nothing but yes men around.
Because it allows them to only deal with happy people, and makes those folks more likely to spend more money. It also colors the view of perspective purchasers who visit there as a first look at the product. If all they see are posts saying how awesome everything is, they are more likely to buy it themselves.
It's fine if that's what it is used as (marketing tool) , but when developers actually believe the smoke being blown up their collective asses, no good can come of it.
It's actually possible to create a Garden of Eden playground for the diehards to isolate themselves and pat each other on the back and still create a successful game... but it hinges on the Devs actually ignoring most of that praise and actually getting critical feedback from multiple sources.
Diehard fans have ruined FAR more games than any negative poster ever has.
You make sense if this was regarding a game with a vanilla leading developer who doesn't carry as much baggage as McQuaid, but in Pantheon's case the alternative to what they are doing with their website now would be worse. In simpler terms, no, locking their websites is not the optimum manner by which to generate enthusiasm for your project. In Pantheon's case, however, it is the lesser of two evils. The only thing opening the website to all would accomplish in doing is delaying its development rather than advance it.
There is little doubt that a good portion of the discussion on the forum would not be based on constructive criticism aimed at making the game better, but about many gamer's predisposed dislike for McQuaid for past history experiences than for what he is trying to accomplish anew with Pantheon. That is the type of negative feedback that this game does not need on its forum. In other words, this developer, for all of his talents, is already saddled with a built in percentage of the gamer base who has it in for him. These people do not need to be given a platform by which to spew their hatred at this point in this game's early development. By closing their forums and doing their thing without all of the negative distractions that they gloom and doom crowd would bring ( and you know they would bring it) they are giving themselves a chance to prove to these doubters that they are for real and to let the past go.
By all accounts this strategy is working because they are beginning to get very good exposure and publicity through various outside websites such as this one. Again, I think we can all agree that their forum's will be open to the public in due time. Now is not that time and anyone who can not understand this dynamic is either not very informed or chooses to ignore the obvious.
echo chambers cant kill any game alone, but bad management of the project, lack of talent, lack of funds, stupid design decisions... pick any of these alone and bingo. that said, i hope to see this project come to fruition but wouldnt spend any money on it, until there.
Uh no, having people create accounts just to troll and act like idiots is the best reason why they shouldn't open them up yet, at least not until the game is basically in beta mode.
Uh no, having people create accounts just to troll and act like idiots is the best reason why they shouldn't open them up yet, at least not until the game is basically in beta mode.
I've been in my fair share of closed testing forums and the trolls are there regardless. Maybe not in a huge abundance, but the community itself is small anyway. The ratio isn't much different in most cases, that's because forum access is a result of having alpha/beta access (in this case it's a result of offering funds). To me trolling isn't exactly a logical excuse. As some folks simply see forum and think i'm gonna troll... Trolls still like having early/exclusive access like anyone else. As well as games to play...
It's more likely to reach a unified vision, which can be more productive at times, yet problematic if your sample size isn't representative enough of your overall chosen market. In this case it's old schoolers... Which is a broad spectrum of preference... far more diverse than the market that emerged as the early games did have more variety in design and mechanics.
In this case specifically I worry there's too much EQ representation thus far, than there is for any other, which is no surprise of course given who's behind it.. Yet that's where the worry comes from and why I feel it's possibly a echo-chamber situation at this point.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Suggesting that people won't talk about Pantheon or that it won't gain as much popularity, solely because people aren't able to participate on the forums is absurd. All the information for the game is available to everyone. Anyone can read Pantheon forums. If people really want to participate further and help shape the game, the option is theirs to take, but it isn't currently free.
Beyond that, many members of the Pantheon community post and interact here. The Creative Director, Chief Creative officer, Artists and the community manager also read and post on these forums when they are able.
There is simply no legitimate reason to flood the forums with noise, nor is it logical to assume having a private forum for a game in pre-Alpha will somehow limit the games visibility or the number of its potential customers.
it is absurd. There is no reason to all those people to toss every random thought that comes into their head into a forum just because some feels everyone needs a forum.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Strange, I've never donated $15 and I can post there. Sounds like more anti-Pantheon propaganda. I'm amazed you didn't draw some parallel to something someone from Pathfinder online did.
How much have you donated?
PS: For the record, I'm not pro-or anti Pantheon. I actually pledged to the Kickstarter:
$45 pledged
Reward: $45
Explorer's Pledge -
Seeker's rewards, PLUS: Alpha invite, Digital copy of the game (including 30 days of game time), and the in-game title “Pantheon Explorer!"
Pledged
Jan 13 2014
But you are right, crazy echo-chamber fandom will have this game end up just like PFO did.
What you're saying is that your assumption was wrong, yet because I corrected you Pantheon must be an echo chamber.
Got it.
I started a $5 sub almost a year ago and have been able to post ever since.
Perhaps you simply do not understand.
If you lock forums and only hear what "fans" say. This is the echo-chamber. It has nothing at all to do with what you or anyone else posts here on MMORPG. It has EVERYTHING to do with isolating developers from reality by surrounding them with a small group of people who see everything through rose-colored glasses.
I'm sure you believe that Pantheon is special and will be immune to that effect. There is always a possibility you are right. The vast likelihood, based on history... is that you are wrong. Time will tell. I hope you are right and can come back here in a few years and point it out.
Why do you feel you get a right to tell them how to design their game?
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
If you lock forums and only hear what "fans" say. This is the echo-chamber. It has nothing at all to do with what you or anyone else posts here on MMORPG. It has EVERYTHING to do with isolating developers from reality by surrounding them with a small group of people who see everything through rose-colored glasses.
I'm sure you believe that Pantheon is special and will be immune to that effect. There is always a possibility you are right. The vast likelihood, based on history... is that you are wrong. Time will tell. I hope you are right and can come back here in a few years and point it out.
Please just stop with this echo-chamber nonsense. That happens with every game in development ever. What happened with Pathfinder was not anomalous in the least.
Why do you feel you get a right to tell them how to design their game?
What makes you think devs don't want feedback as well as suggestions? They wouldn't bother with forums at all if they didn't. These companies are constantly taking in feedback as well as guidance, as that's how you develop something you know people want to play.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If you lock forums and only hear what "fans" say. This is the echo-chamber. It has nothing at all to do with what you or anyone else posts here on MMORPG. It has EVERYTHING to do with isolating developers from reality by surrounding them with a small group of people who see everything through rose-colored glasses.
I'm sure you believe that Pantheon is special and will be immune to that effect. There is always a possibility you are right. The vast likelihood, based on history... is that you are wrong. Time will tell. I hope you are right and can come back here in a few years and point it out.
Please just stop with this echo-chamber nonsense. That happens with every game in development ever. What happened with Pathfinder was not anomalous in the least.
You might think differently but it certainly isn't nonsense, that type of thing happens quite a bit in all forms of creation. Especially when someone with a name that is known for something is involved. It might sound harsh, but all it's really saying is that you don't want people telling you how good you are constantly or how much they love what you do. It really doesn't even have to be an extreme, just one sided feedback, which is detrimental to capturing a real idea on what the overall base wants rather than the smaller diehard portion of it.
Right now, no matter how you shake it; the core of what they're listening to is made of folks who are already ready to throw down, sight unseen. You don't see how that can be problematic for an MMORPG, even a niche one?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I understand the echo-chamber posts here. It's true, that the current forum-base at the Pantheon website is a pretty narrow group of people.
Of course, I have to admit that I agree with that group of people on almost everything (minus pricing), because I am an EQ vet myself. I still play on project 1999 to get the more "classic" feel.
However, I want to emphasize that though I personally believe that the developers should change very little of the core game design based on feedback, if they *do* ask important questions of the community (such as subscription pricing), then I believe that regular people should also be part of that conversation. Why? Because I want Pantheon to be successful, and seeing ideas like $50/month subscription pricing is going to kill this game, despite what die-hard fans on the forums are saying. And thank Tunare that Brad sees it the same way I do, also - the guy has the experience necessary to know what's going to work.
But really, the above is only a small part of the reason why I believe the Pantheon forums should be opened. I think that many people underestimate the value of participation-marketing. It's very powerful. Pantheon should be inviting more people into the fold, not less. It should be asking for loyalty, more than money, at this point. Because let's face it guys, a few more people paying a few bucks for forum access isn't going to resolve any of the financial concerns for Pantheon. Brad and co. need to build up a loyal fan-base and then run another kickstarter, or pray for another angel investor. Either way, loyal fan-base is the way to go. And inviting people in is the ticket to doing that.
And I don't want to push aside those who *have* put money down on Pantheon already, either. They should have a private forum with special privileges, and more. I think they deserve it for taking the chance on this game so early. Let's just make sure that we allow new potential customers to become loyal members as well, and not sequester people to other websites.
Uh no, having people create accounts just to troll and act like idiots is the best reason why they shouldn't open them up yet, at least not until the game is basically in beta mode.
I've been in my fair share of closed testing forums and the trolls are there regardless. Maybe not in a huge abundance, but the community itself is small anyway. The ratio isn't much different in most cases, that's because forum access is a result of having alpha/beta access (in this case it's a result of offering funds). To me trolling isn't exactly a logical excuse. As some folks simply see forum and think i'm gonna troll... Trolls still like having early/exclusive access like anyone else. As well as games to play...
It's more likely to reach a unified vision, which can be more productive at times, yet problematic if your sample size isn't representative enough of your overall chosen market. In this case it's old schoolers... Which is a broad spectrum of preference... far more diverse than the market that emerged as the early games did have more variety in design and mechanics.
In this case specifically I worry there's too much EQ representation thus far, than there is for any other, which is no surprise of course given who's behind it.. Yet that's where the worry comes from and why I feel it's possibly a echo-chamber situation at this point.
Um the exactly problem in MMORPG's today is the LACK of Everquest influence in them. Too many easy mode games that have zero emphasis on group play, community building etc.... Too many "Modern" MMORPG's feel like a solo game with a public chat room where everyone is a winner with minimal influence.
The fact that it draws HEAVILY from Everquest as a model is its MAJOR selling point.
If you lock forums and only hear what "fans" say. This is the echo-chamber. It has nothing at all to do with what you or anyone else posts here on MMORPG. It has EVERYTHING to do with isolating developers from reality by surrounding them with a small group of people who see everything through rose-colored glasses.
I'm sure you believe that Pantheon is special and will be immune to that effect. There is always a possibility you are right. The vast likelihood, based on history... is that you are wrong. Time will tell. I hope you are right and can come back here in a few years and point it out.
Please just stop with this echo-chamber nonsense. That happens with every game in development ever. What happened with Pathfinder was not anomalous in the least.
No. It's not nonsense and most folks recognize that. Sure there have always been your diehard fans that would have thousands of posts on the official forums before release, but now it's amplified by people feeling they have invested in that game, sometimes thousands of dollars. Developers used to have a budget and get funding before making a game. Now they are reliant on these folks to keep paying a sub to post, or buying new ships, or houses or some other items in order to keep cash flowing during development.
Like I said above, if the developers simply use their closed forum as a marketing tool there is really no harm done. If they use it to crowdsource their ideas and concepts they will likely be helped off the same cliffs that so many other echo chambers have produced before.
Diehard fans have ruined more games than any troll ever could.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Sorry, but Pantheon isn't Pathfinder. I know on one hand how pleased you are to see your hobbyhorse finally die, but on the other hand you're lacking a sense of purpose and feel like you must continue accusing every game of Pathfinders mistakes.
Sorry, but Pantheon isn't Pathfinder. I know on one hand how pleased you are to see your hobbyhorse finally die, but on the other hand you're lacking a sense of purpose and feel like you must continue accusing every game of Pathfinders mistakes.
Spare us.
Hmm. Somehow I doubt you are a qualified psychologist. I suggest you cling to game defense and not mental diagnoses of other posters on a public forum.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Comments
Got it.
I started a $5 sub almost a year ago and have been able to post ever since.
Revival calls itself oldschool and hardcore yes, but there is actually no game akin to it. Its quite unique, but the only similarity is seems to share at this point is that they want to make a harder game revolving more around teamwork. Otherwise, almost completely different.
If you lock forums and only hear what "fans" say. This is the echo-chamber. It has nothing at all to do with what you or anyone else posts here on MMORPG. It has EVERYTHING to do with isolating developers from reality by surrounding them with a small group of people who see everything through rose-colored glasses.
I'm sure you believe that Pantheon is special and will be immune to that effect. There is always a possibility you are right. The vast likelihood, based on history... is that you are wrong. Time will tell. I hope you are right and can come back here in a few years and point it out.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I mean, by that logic they shouldn't even have forums for their game.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It's fine if that's what it is used as (marketing tool) , but when developers actually believe the smoke being blown up their collective asses, no good can come of it.
It's actually possible to create a Garden of Eden playground for the diehards to isolate themselves and pat each other on the back and still create a successful game... but it hinges on the Devs actually ignoring most of that praise and actually getting critical feedback from multiple sources.
Diehard fans have ruined FAR more games than any negative poster ever has.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
uncompromising vision isn't always a good thing.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You make sense if this was regarding a game with a vanilla leading developer who doesn't carry as much baggage as McQuaid, but in Pantheon's case the alternative to what they are doing with their website now would be worse. In simpler terms, no, locking their websites is not the optimum manner by which to generate enthusiasm for your project. In Pantheon's case, however, it is the lesser of two evils. The only thing opening the website to all would accomplish in doing is delaying its development rather than advance it.
There is little doubt that a good portion of the discussion on the forum would not be based on constructive criticism aimed at making the game better, but about many gamer's predisposed dislike for McQuaid for past history experiences than for what he is trying to accomplish anew with Pantheon. That is the type of negative feedback that this game does not need on its forum. In other words, this developer, for all of his talents, is already saddled with a built in percentage of the gamer base who has it in for him. These people do not need to be given a platform by which to spew their hatred at this point in this game's early development. By closing their forums and doing their thing without all of the negative distractions that they gloom and doom crowd would bring ( and you know they would bring it) they are giving themselves a chance to prove to these doubters that they are for real and to let the past go.
By all accounts this strategy is working because they are beginning to get very good exposure and publicity through various outside websites such as this one. Again, I think we can all agree that their forum's will be open to the public in due time. Now is not that time and anyone who can not understand this dynamic is either not very informed or chooses to ignore the obvious.
It's more likely to reach a unified vision, which can be more productive at times, yet problematic if your sample size isn't representative enough of your overall chosen market. In this case it's old schoolers... Which is a broad spectrum of preference... far more diverse than the market that emerged as the early games did have more variety in design and mechanics.
In this case specifically I worry there's too much EQ representation thus far, than there is for any other, which is no surprise of course given who's behind it.. Yet that's where the worry comes from and why I feel it's possibly a echo-chamber situation at this point.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
it is absurd. There is no reason to all those people to toss every random thought that comes into their head into a forum just because some feels everyone needs a forum.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Why do you feel you get a right to tell them how to design their game?
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Right now, no matter how you shake it; the core of what they're listening to is made of folks who are already ready to throw down, sight unseen. You don't see how that can be problematic for an MMORPG, even a niche one?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Of course, I have to admit that I agree with that group of people on almost everything (minus pricing), because I am an EQ vet myself. I still play on project 1999 to get the more "classic" feel.
However, I want to emphasize that though I personally believe that the developers should change very little of the core game design based on feedback, if they *do* ask important questions of the community (such as subscription pricing), then I believe that regular people should also be part of that conversation. Why? Because I want Pantheon to be successful, and seeing ideas like $50/month subscription pricing is going to kill this game, despite what die-hard fans on the forums are saying. And thank Tunare that Brad sees it the same way I do, also - the guy has the experience necessary to know what's going to work.
But really, the above is only a small part of the reason why I believe the Pantheon forums should be opened. I think that many people underestimate the value of participation-marketing. It's very powerful. Pantheon should be inviting more people into the fold, not less. It should be asking for loyalty, more than money, at this point. Because let's face it guys, a few more people paying a few bucks for forum access isn't going to resolve any of the financial concerns for Pantheon. Brad and co. need to build up a loyal fan-base and then run another kickstarter, or pray for another angel investor. Either way, loyal fan-base is the way to go. And inviting people in is the ticket to doing that.
And I don't want to push aside those who *have* put money down on Pantheon already, either. They should have a private forum with special privileges, and more. I think they deserve it for taking the chance on this game so early. Let's just make sure that we allow new potential customers to become loyal members as well, and not sequester people to other websites.
The fact that it draws HEAVILY from Everquest as a model is its MAJOR selling point.
Like I said above, if the developers simply use their closed forum as a marketing tool there is really no harm done. If they use it to crowdsource their ideas and concepts they will likely be helped off the same cliffs that so many other echo chambers have produced before.
Diehard fans have ruined more games than any troll ever could.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Spare us.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018