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There is no "griefing" in EVE

KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,016
edited October 2015 in EVE Online
Edit: I think I just won the award for "most boring forum post in 2015"   ;)

In another thread about griefing, makasouleater69 made a number of hyperbolic statements that I feel misrepresent EVE so I decided to answer them here rather than derail that thread

As for eve, it is full of griefing, there is a mentally handicapped top guild that is all they do.

Let's start off with a definition of griefing, as provided by mgilbrtsn: "As far as griefing is concerned, I generally use the definition on wikipedia: "A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways""

CCP absolutely doesn't not permit griefing as defined above.  As for the not-named "mentally handicapped" top guild (Goons) they are actually quite brilliant in finding many ways to manipulate the game world, kill other players, cause other people pain, but in all of that, they are staying within the rules set by the developer.

EVE doesn't have that many players. I would say like 5000 tops, and that's being generous. Most of those people play like 5+ accounts at once, if not more, so that 30000 they say is on, is 100 percent a lie, if you are using it for how many people play.

While very true, many people have multiple accounts, (I now have 6 that I pay for) do realize that pretty much only miners can fly 5, 9, 25 accounts at one time, PVPers, mission runners, explorers etc are pretty much running only one account at a time, so I'd peg the number around 2/3rd of the total accounts online are actual players, so in the example, 20K/30K.  BTW, CCP never claims those figures are players, they always state accounts online.

Even EVE, you can dump thousands in, and get mad cash, accounts ect. In fact eve is more p2w than arche age, at least in arche age all your getting is items, in eve if you were a serious whale, you could literally dominate every one with your Credit card, and its perfectly within the rules of eve.

It's been tried, and failed in every case.  No one has "won" EVE or even dominated it by spending real money in the game.  The big money is in moon mining, market trading, and some others, and no matter how much ISK you have, to create a Titan (largest ships in the game) requires a ton of effort by your industrialists to create,and you have to be able to prevent other organizations from destroying it before it's finished. I'd actually peg it very low on the P2W scale, heck they won't even sell me experience boosting potions, which I'd actually pay for even with subs.

That is why I think MMOs, and PVP is stupid. If you want pvp go with games with out cash shops, levels, ect, that make it so skill is the only thing involved. That is why MOBAs are better for pvp, because they have rules, and the griefers cant really do much, but type nasty things to other people.

MOBA's are better for PVP if it is a "game", a team sport if you will, where winning and losing is more of a matter of a record book, and nothing can really be won or lost. (unless you are playing for money of course)

EVE and other MMORPG's that have FFA PVP are more like a real world "war", and dying really sucks and should be avoided at all costs.  Hence if you ever find yourself in a fair contest, you've done something very wrong.  Sometimes the other side will have you beat in numbers, but you can take them with skill, better ship, a bit of luck, or even by lag working towards your favor, as in real world conflicts.

Some players mistakenly think that griefing occurs in high sec,  because it's supposed to be safe space, and it's unfair CODE can kill miners there (at the cost of their ships) and cause losses that far exceed their own.

Working as designed.  Just as in the real world, nothing protects you from dying except your own wits, defenses and luck, EVE is exactly the same way.  In real life the police may extract justice for any injury caused to you (after the fact), but in EVE Concorde's justice is swift and sure.  Just in real life, sometimes the criminal's penalty doesn't equal the loss by the victim, but that's how it goes.

As far as the fairness of it all, I'll leave you one of my favorite quotes from a bad movie:

Someone once told me there's always someone more powerful than you
..."
Bunraku

"See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






Post edited by Kyleran on

Comments

  • makasouleater69makasouleater69 Member UncommonPosts: 1,096
    edited October 2015
    Haha, I can't believe you took the time to do that, but since you did I guess i gotta read it. Well, you changed my usage of that word, so of course you can make it what ever you want.  But atleast you arent defending that they arent insane or mentally handicapped, which I define as having something wrong with your brain that normal people dont, because you just described this. 

    Sadism involves gaining pleasure from seeing others undergo discomfort or pain. The opponent-process theory explains the way in which individuals not only display, but also take enjoyment in committing sadistic acts.[2][clarification needed]Individuals possessing sadistic personalities tend to display recurrent aggression and cruel behavior.[3][4] Sadism can also include the use of emotional cruelty, purposefully manipulating others through the use of fear, and a preoccupation with violence.[5]

    That is a mental disorder. You just said the people who run the top guild in this game have a mental disorder, a pretty serious one at that. 

    They let you buy accounts, and soon they will let you buy skill points, it is pay 2 win. Your just dancing around , and debating with me what win means. Win in the way i used it is, if you dump 10k in, and i dump 15 dollar sub in, and we both start at the same time, you will have a huge advantage/win over me. 

    I would like to add you counter dict your self, you said in eve dying sucks and should be avoided, but you said you cant pay to win, but if you pay you can have unlimited in game money, so you wont be in the slightest afraid of dying.  Not to mention it is serious hard to die in eve, unless you want to. I mean it is possible at all times, but even if you dont buy any money, it isnt that big of a deal. 

    Code killing miners is grefing in my book, and they have a mental disorder. Listen you really need to go to a professional shrink, and ask them, if there is something wrong with some one, if they love to cause pain to others, and see others suffer pain, and make fun of that pain. At least from the little I know about it, code loves to rub it in peoples faces, which is a mental disorder, akin to running over some ones dog, and bringing it to the door and laughing at them. 

    "Working as designed.  Just as in the real world, nothing protects you from dying except your own wits, defenses and luck, EVE is exactly the same way.  In real life the police may extract justice for any injury caused to you (after the fact), but in EVE Concorde's justice is swift and sure.  Just in real life, sometimes the criminal's penalty doesn't equal the loss by the victim, but that's how it goes."
     
    Very true. 

    Yep, so after all that, I still play eve. Infact I bought a 200 dollar monitor so i could play 2 at once. It doesn't mean i think none of that is true. The game is Pay 2 win, filled with a bunch of people with mental disorders, and the majority arent even fun to talk to. But your right eve has that one thing,  its almost like the real world but better. The real world is pay 2 win, filled with a bunch of people with metnal disorders, and the majority arent even fun to talk to. 

    PS now look at what you made me do, i stopped mining for 2 mins good JOB YOU GRIEFED ME hahaha. 
    Post edited by makasouleater69 on
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member LegendaryPosts: 7,431
    I'm pretty sure scamming was fairly easy in Eve Online. You know, pretending to sell a certain ship or item in a contract. People think they are getting one thing but are magically screwed over because the person who created the contract modified the item link.

    Forbidden/Bannable Schemes

    Although CCP regards most scams as simply part of the game, there are some tricks which they explicitly forbid:

    Character sale fraud

    If fraud is committed in the sale of a character through the character bazaar you can petition and have everything reversed.

    Impersonation

    Impersonating another character or corporation is a bannable offense. Point finale.

    Rookie Systems

    CCP designate several systems as "rookie systems", consisting of the starter systems, the career agent systems, and Arnon. The canonical list is here.

    "Attempting to abuse a new player’s lack of knowledge of the game and its mechanic for your personal gain or simply for their harm is prohibited in these solar systems."

    Real Life Assets

    It shouldn't really need stating, but scamming someone out of real life assets through an in-game scam is not permitted, since it's almost certainly against the law where you live. However, a grey area that might affect you is that encouraging someone through a chat session to buy a PLEX and then scamming it off them may be considered over the line and get your scam reversed. You can freely scam someone out of PLEX they already own, or that they buy without your encouragement.

    PLEX for GOOD

    Using a PLEX for GOOD campaign to scam people out of ISK, items or PLEX is expicitly forbidden by CCP and will earn you a permanent ban.

  • JaszJasz Member UncommonPosts: 67
    I have seen so much misinformation posted in these forums about EVE that it is truly refreshing to read your "boring" post.

    The bottom line is, it is easy to get angry and belittle a game, to even call it broken when you are mad. A lot of the posts I see are people who act like a disgruntled ex-employee because they lost something in EVE. They spend real money on PLEX and expect the ships they buy to with the isk generated to be impervious to destruction because it is high sec space. That's not EVE. It doesn't work that way in this game. That is the danger of spending real money on pixels. Deal with it.

    People think that buying accounts makes up for the fact that they don't know how to fit a ship. Once again if you spend money to try to win fights in EVE your going to fail. Mainly because you will not have the experience and knowledge to win. It is as far from P2W as I've seen. It is a money sink for the ill-informed but a seasoned player doesn't have to pay a dime and knows how to survive.

    EVE requires thought and patience and those of you who are unwilling to use both of these traits should probably find another game instead of dying in-game and belittling it on forums for your own failure.
  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,415

    Eve is probably the best example of a FFA PVP game there is.  It is also the best example of why these games are generally unpopular outside of a select group of people.  I played eve for about 2.5 years, had something like 25mil skill points.  I did some wormhole stuff with a corp, and it was fun.  But it got boring.  It started to feel like work.  Especially if you lost an expensive ship in a fight.  Now you have to spend the next 6 weeks saving up, mining, blah blah blah, to get back to where you were 6 weeks ago.


    Honestly that type of play belongs in games like MOBAs or FPS where its a short interaction.  A "match" per se.


    As to griefing, there is absolutely TONS of it in that game.  As a new player I can't tell you how many times I got podded in highsec because someone who had the money, etc, and didn't care if they got blown up by security would do that because they thought "it was hilarious".  I even had some gate campers do that several times to people in highsec because it was "for the lulz".  They thought it was great to blow up some ship that some "n00b" spent a couple of months saving up for.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member LegendaryPosts: 7,431
    edited October 2015
    Jasz said:
    I have seen so much misinformation posted in these forums about EVE that it is truly refreshing to read your "boring" post.

    The bottom line is, it is easy to get angry and belittle a game, to even call it broken when you are mad. A lot of the posts I see are people who act like a disgruntled ex-employee because they lost something in EVE. They spend real money on PLEX and expect the ships they buy to with the isk generated to be impervious to destruction because it is high sec space. That's not EVE. It doesn't work that way in this game. That is the danger of spending real money on pixels. Deal with it.

    People think that buying accounts makes up for the fact that they don't know how to fit a ship. Once again if you spend money to try to win fights in EVE your going to fail. Mainly because you will not have the experience and knowledge to win. It is as far from P2W as I've seen. It is a money sink for the ill-informed but a seasoned player doesn't have to pay a dime and knows how to survive.

    EVE requires thought and patience and those of you who are unwilling to use both of these traits should probably find another game instead of dying in-game and belittling it on forums for your own failure.
    I see a lot of Eve players defense against the game being P2W constantly referencing newb players spending money. Uhm, what about veteran players spending money? Has that thought ever occurred to you? Apparently not. I guarantee you if a veteran corporation wanted to spend some cash, they could literally dominate the game, cause now you have skilled players with access to infinite ships. Please don't cherry pick your arguments when it's obvious it's P2W. Your obvious passion for the game has made you close minded.

    EDIT: By the way, despite the OP talking about a larger range of issues than what his title states, most of what was said is in fact true. Eve Online is a haven for griefing despite a lot of it is "ok" in CCP's eyes. Just because the developer gives a green light on it, just means its a game FOR griefers, but it's still griefing none the less.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Hrimnir said:

     As a new player I can't tell you how many times I got podded in highsec because someone who had the money, etc, and didn't care if they got blown up by security would do that because they thought "it was hilarious". 


    It's rare that anyone gets podded in hi-sec, let alone multiple times even over the course of 2.5 years. Do you feel the problem there was EVE or is it possible that you really, really pissed off the wrong person? 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member LegendaryPosts: 7,431
    Loktofeit said:
    Hrimnir said:

     As a new player I can't tell you how many times I got podded in highsec because someone who had the money, etc, and didn't care if they got blown up by security would do that because they thought "it was hilarious". 


    It's rare that anyone gets podded in hi-sec, let alone multiple times even over the course of 2.5 years. Do you feel the problem there was EVE or is it possible that you really, really pissed off the wrong person? 
    I've had my fair share of harassment in high sec while mining. Players in Eve are notorious for harassing new players. Denying that would be silly. Yes, Eve Online in my opinion is not a very friendly game for new players and after a decade of existence I doubt that will ever change.

  • MrSnufflesMrSnuffles Member UncommonPosts: 1,117
    Just because the developers do nothing about the obvious "griefing" methods and never fixed issues with the auctions and skills does not make them not "griefing" or exploits. The ignorance and wanna be "hardcore" attitude of both the devs and the veteran players would be cute if it was not so sad.

    I am not even going into the various incidents involving real life consequences and leaders of coalitions publicly encouraging others to grief someone so he kills himself. It's all well documented and common knowledge.

    EvE is a cesspool of scammers, bullies, griefers and bottom feeders. Has always been and always will be. It's a well known fact and re-defining the word griefing does not change this fact.


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    "It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
    - Michael Bitton
    Community Manager, MMORPG.com

    "As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law

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  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Rhoklaw said:
    Loktofeit said:
    Hrimnir said:

     As a new player I can't tell you how many times I got podded in highsec because someone who had the money, etc, and didn't care if they got blown up by security would do that because they thought "it was hilarious". 


    It's rare that anyone gets podded in hi-sec, let alone multiple times even over the course of 2.5 years. Do you feel the problem there was EVE or is it possible that you really, really pissed off the wrong person? 
    I've had my fair share of harassment in high sec while mining. Players in Eve are notorious for harassing new players. Denying that would be silly. Yes, Eve Online in my opinion is not a very friendly game for new players and after a decade of existence I doubt that will ever change.
    I never said any of that was false, Rho. I only questioned his statement that he "can't tell you how many times [he] got podded in highsec." It's odd for to even happen once to someone, let alone so many times that they lost count. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member LegendaryPosts: 7,431
    Loktofeit said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Loktofeit said:
    Hrimnir said:

     As a new player I can't tell you how many times I got podded in highsec because someone who had the money, etc, and didn't care if they got blown up by security would do that because they thought "it was hilarious". 


    It's rare that anyone gets podded in hi-sec, let alone multiple times even over the course of 2.5 years. Do you feel the problem there was EVE or is it possible that you really, really pissed off the wrong person? 
    I've had my fair share of harassment in high sec while mining. Players in Eve are notorious for harassing new players. Denying that would be silly. Yes, Eve Online in my opinion is not a very friendly game for new players and after a decade of existence I doubt that will ever change.
    I never said any of that was false, Rho. I only questioned his statement that he "can't tell you how many times [he] got podded in highsec." It's odd for to even happen once to someone, let alone so many times that they lost count. 

    I understand what you're saying and I agree, he may have pissed someone off. In regards to my time spent in Eve, I was actually harassed by some random player for nearly 3 months straight. Not every day, but a few days in a row every 15-20 days. This guy literally followed me around just to piss me off. He knew it was slow and hard when players started out and he did everything he could to ruin my enjoyment of the game. Needless to say, I don't play MMO's that I can't enjoy at least 50% of my time playing. If you can be harassed in high sec, than where do you go? Nowhere. You just leave the game, like I did.

    Eve Online is exactly as it's players proclaim it to be. A very hardcore PvP sandbox. It just so happens that games like this reach a breaking point to where some players only means of entertainment is destroying any type of enjoyment new players might be having. That is just a very unfortunate side effect of PvP sandbox games.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,321
    Rhoklaw said:
    I understand what you're saying and I agree, he may have pissed someone off. In regards to my time spent in Eve, I was actually harassed by some random player for nearly 3 months straight. Not every day, but a few days in a row every 15-20 days. This guy literally followed me around just to piss me off. He knew it was slow and hard when players started out and he did everything he could to ruin my enjoyment of the game. Needless to say, I don't play MMO's that I can't enjoy at least 50% of my time playing. If you can be harassed in high sec, than where do you go? Nowhere. You just leave the game, like I did.

    Eve Online is exactly as it's players proclaim it to be. A very hardcore PvP sandbox. It just so happens that games like this reach a breaking point to where some players only means of entertainment is destroying any type of enjoyment new players might be having. That is just a very unfortunate side effect of PvP sandbox games.
    Even if you were harrassed and you didn't do anything to trigger or fuel further harrassment, it is still a long shot to make any generalization based on individual experience.

     Is griefing possible in EVE? Yes it is and I do not think anyone denies that but so it is possible in other games.


    EVE is not a PVP game at all, the game does not revolve around PVP. There are plenty of tools and mechanics for you to play with and some of those tools can be used for ill or good. Unfortunately some new players might fall victim to provided  player freedom but seeing how the game was going strong for more than a decade, it rather suggests it is a small number of players.


    Imo, the biggest hurdle new players have with the game(leaving UI and atrocious tutorial aside) is that EVE is vastly different from other game and they expectations will clash hard with raw nature of the game. Nothing is granted, you have to be active and make an effort.

    Not eveyone's cup of tea, that's understandable.
  • makasouleater69makasouleater69 Member UncommonPosts: 1,096
    I just want to say, that I don't think the game is broken. I think it is pay 2 win, but all games are now a days, so I just had to get over it. I can't honestly say I have any personal experience with being scammed in eve, I have seen people try, and some one tried to get me to join a corp, and pay them a bunch of money, but these attempts to me are as obvious, as the criaglist scams, that want you to cash a check, and send them the money. That though is prolly because I came from UO fel, which had just as much scamming, although the people usually got put in jail, or accounts banned for it. 

    I play because Eve is a world, and feels like one. Other games are just games. I liked ARK better, but my friend bailed on me, and it costs more than eve to run a dedicated server, so I gave up lol, 110 a month is to much for me to spend on a game, and ARK sucks if you take away the ability to mod it, and run it how you want, EVE doesnt. 

    Jasz said:
    I have seen so much misinformation posted in these forums about EVE that it is truly refreshing to read your "boring" post.

    The bottom line is, it is easy to get angry and belittle a game, to even call it broken when you are mad. A lot of the posts I see are people who act like a disgruntled ex-employee because they lost something in EVE. They spend real money on PLEX and expect the ships they buy to with the isk generated to be impervious to destruction because it is high sec space. That's not EVE. It doesn't work that way in this game. That is the danger of spending real money on pixels. Deal with it.

    People think that buying accounts makes up for the fact that they don't know how to fit a ship. Once again if you spend money to try to win fights in EVE your going to fail. Mainly because you will not have the experience and knowledge to win. It is as far from P2W as I've seen. It is a money sink for the ill-informed but a seasoned player doesn't have to pay a dime and knows how to survive.

    EVE requires thought and patience and those of you who are unwilling to use both of these traits should probably find another game instead of dying in-game and belittling it on forums for your own failure.
    Um I am pretty sure, if you got the kind of cash to just waste on buying accounts, then some one helping you fit a ship right anit nothing. People give that advice away for free, but if you said in chat, hey, hey guys, I will pay 100 million if you help me fit my ship right, yeah........

    If your talking about me, I never belittled the game. I was mostly focused on it being pay 2 win, how is that belittling the game? The other focus was on the people who go out of their way to try and make peoples feel terrible for no reason, by taking their hard work, or being mean to them for no reason. Which is a mental disorder, and I am not belittling them, it is what it is. 
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