This is sad and disturbing...

Kopogero

 That there is not a single game on the market that is:
"Free to play" - So, I can fully experience it and see if it's worth the commitment. I also highly doubt there is a product out there available worth spending $ at the moment, but those who care less about this already are in games like FFXIV, ESO, GW2 expansion and so forth...
"Secure" - mainly from hacking, heavy exploiting.
"Sense of progression" - So, I have long term goals playing the game. I like to play for year+ at least.
"Populated" - Healthy population (this depends on how the game designed though)
"Recent" - I'm not looking to join a server older than 5 years, based on knowledge of what's been available.

That's pretty much it. The rest is minor things like essential patches that expand the lifespan of the game (if it's themepark based around gearing and overcoming content). Competition is a plus, especially amongst players, but being forced to depend on individuals that may not be avaialble most of the time or not even exist to complete goals is no thx. I like to be able to login at 6 am, 6 pm or midnight and pursue goals.

So, yea as you can see my requirements are simple, yet even this simple of a product is apparently missing...I'm purposely trying to limit my requirements. I'm not even looking for a "MMO". I've enjoyed in the past other genre games with a sense of community, progression like Pangya (some old golf game ruined by hackers and Need for Speed World for a brief period). Currently Marvel Heroes Online is my primary game, but I do need a back up. I understand Wild Star going F2P this month, but my optimism is low on it.

sgel

Doesn't GW2 fit your requirements?

Kopogero

Guild Wars 2 will be like a trial soon without purchasing the expansion.

Lobotomist

sgel said:

Doesn't GW2 fit your requirements?

No progression

LacedOpium

I agree with all of your requirements except "Free to play."  Seriously, these games, and especially the one you are describing, cost time, resources, and money to develop.  A good argument could be made that the main problem with the MMORPG genre is the advent of the F2P business model craze.  I agree with you that there aren't currently very many games worth paying for, but that has a lot to do with the fact that there isn't a whole lot of venture capitalist money flowing into the industry to produce a quality product.  If you want a quality product, you have to be willing to pay for it.  Currently, many gamers do not.  Hence, the crap games we're getting.  In other words, a classic what comes first, the chicken or the egg, scenario.  

Kyleran

If you are not willing to pay why would you expect a developer to try and make you a game that you might pay for? Understandable that they focus their efforts on the segment of the market that is most likely to be profitable.

sgel

Kopogero said:

Guild Wars 2 will be like a trial soon without purchasing the expansion.

As far as I recall the entire basic game will be free? I don't remember details though.

sgel

Lobotomist said:

sgel said:

Doesn't GW2 fit your requirements?

No progression

GW2 has plenty of progression.. though it really depends on what you mean by the word.

Kopogero

It's not the gamers fault, in fact if they aren't willing to pay it means that, they aren't willing to pay for X reasons like having alternative cheaper/free product that does the job. This is a PvP war between producers and consumers. The producers are the ones that have to proove those gamers that their product is worth the fee they asking, not other way around. The "crap" games we are getting is because producers believe releasing "crap" games can still be profitable for them.

Gamers and nongamers are considered a market out there, a potential market and it's the job for the producers to capture that market and create new one with their released product. If they are failing to do that then guess who's fault is that?

Finally, as you state there isn't a lot of venture capitalist money flowing into the industry because it takes more than just throwing $ in an industry that is dependant on innovation, creativity and understanding what I and you demand and then having the necessary skills to deliver it.

LacedOpium

Kopogero said:

It's not the gamers fault, in fact if they aren't willing to pay while still enjoy other free products then that's their win. This is a PvP war between producers and consumers. The producers are the ones that have to proove those gamers that their product is worth the fee they asking, not other way around. The "crap" games we are getting is because producers believe releasing "crap" games can still be profitable for them.

Ok, so who is the winner if you aren't paying for quality so therefore they aren't developing quality?

The current player base is an entitled one with a culture that now screams "I don't, and won't, pay to play an online game."  As a result, developers are saddled with developing F2P games with built in cash shops to make money, because after all, making money is what its all about.  They aren't going to make any type of considerable investment into a F2P game without knowing what their returns will be. 

Crap in, crap out.  

You get what you pay for.

Kopogero

That's where you are wrong. Anyone who's into the industry to make $ first before wanting to deliver a product they themselves would be part of will be usually met with a failure. Also, if $ is what is about then it's in their best interest to deliver a good product I and you would open our wallets to. I play F2P games, but it doesn't mean I spend $ on. Still I contribute far more to them with positive word of mouth and playing them, something I wouldn't even do on some with $ barrier in front.

Finally, yes as you stated you get what you pay for and I didn't pay for anything new that came out in almost 5 years because it simply didn't catter to me, while also managing to have a great time gaming. So, this is a win win in my eyes, since not only I managed to enjoy gaming but I also voted with my wallet...on what kind of future I want to see for gaming in general.

Realizer

The no progression argument for GW2 is so old and outdated. Honestly how many of you have all 9999 WvW levels done? How many of you have ascended armor and legendary weapons? How many of you have map completion? How many of you have a decent rank in structured pvp? How many have all 50 fractal levels done? Crafting, ect, all of these are progression, the fact is either you just don't want bother trying, or you don't know what to do. GW2 has a bit more freedom than other games, it does not force you to progress, therefore players think there's no progression simply because it's not shoved down their throats. 

seafirex

Why should they try to even please us the gamers? That is the question.

The only thing gamers do is request, request, request, then they get what they want and still complains. They want to have everything easy and fast, then they get it and again they complain there is nothing to do in the games because they reach max level too fast or they played all the content too fast and it gets repetitive.
And again at this point they request even more and to top it off they want it free.

Devs can only make the kind of games you want inside 4 or 5 years. And xpacs in about 1 or 2 years min. But that cost them a few hundreds of millions. And that is for the original content, not the extra you want to be added after your 3 or 4 months of play time in it, that we complains that we need because we already played the so called original content.

So the fault is to the players not the devs. The devs are not the one's that ask to make easy games, games that takes only 1 or 2 weeks to reach max level and only play the end game content like a lobby game, etc.. The players are requesting it because they say, they have too much things to do in real life. I wonder why they still play games if they have so much to do in real life? Anyways to stay on topic, How can devs, that are humans, can make content as fast as you are requesting but with the polish content you are requesting?

That is the hidden questions in all this mess. Also why blame the devs for something we are requesting them to do? And for free?

Katilla

Kopogero said:

 That there is not a single game on the market that is:
"Free to play" - So, I can fully experience it and see if it's worth the commitment. I also highly doubt there is a product out there available worth spending $ at the moment, but those who care less about this already are in games like FFXIV, ESO, GW2 expansion and so forth...
"Secure" - mainly from hacking, heavy exploiting.
"Sense of progression" - So, I have long term goals playing the game. I like to play for year+ at least.
"Populated" - Healthy population (this depends on how the game designed though)
"Recent" - I'm not looking to join a server older than 5 years, based on knowledge of what's been available.

That's pretty much it. The rest is minor things like essential patches that expand the lifespan of the game (if it's themepark based around gearing and overcoming content). Competition is a plus, especially amongst players, but being forced to depend on individuals that may not be avaialble most of the time or not even exist to complete goals is no thx. I like to be able to login at 6 am, 6 pm or midnight and pursue goals.

So, yea as you can see my requirements are simple, yet even this simple of a product is apparently missing...I'm purposely trying to limit my requirements. I'm not even looking for a "MMO". I've enjoyed in the past other genre games with a sense of community, progression like Pangya (some old golf game ruined by hackers and Need for Speed World for a brief period). Currently Marvel Heroes Online is my primary game, but I do need a back up. I understand Wild Star going F2P this month, but my optimism is low on it.

Try Aion, there's NO restrictions whatsoever and it still has a HUGE population

moonbound

Kopogero said:

 That there is not a single game on the market that is:
"Free to play" - So, I can fully experience it and see if it's worth the commitment. I also highly doubt there is a product out there available worth spending $ at the moment, but those who care less about this already are in games like FFXIV, ESO, GW2 expansion and so forth...
"Secure" - mainly from hacking, heavy exploiting.
"Sense of progression" - So, I have long term goals playing the game. I like to play for year+ at least.
"Populated" - Healthy population (this depends on how the game designed though)
"Recent" - I'm not looking to join a server older than 5 years, based on knowledge of what's been available.

That's pretty much it. The rest is minor things like essential patches that expand the lifespan of the game (if it's themepark based around gearing and overcoming content). Competition is a plus, especially amongst players, but being forced to depend on individuals that may not be avaialble most of the time or not even exist to complete goals is no thx. I like to be able to login at 6 am, 6 pm or midnight and pursue goals.

So, yea as you can see my requirements are simple, yet even this simple of a product is apparently missing...I'm purposely trying to limit my requirements. I'm not even looking for a "MMO". I've enjoyed in the past other genre games with a sense of community, progression like Pangya (some old golf game ruined by hackers and Need for Speed World for a brief period). Currently Marvel Heroes Online is my primary game, but I do need a back up. I understand Wild Star going F2P this month, but my optimism is low on it.

Guild wars 2 saids hello, also swtor is another free trial kind of mmorpg for free, there is always skyforge to. The secret world offers 3 day free trials check the steam forums the sticky people give those codes out like candy.

Kopogero

Realizer said:

The no progression argument for GW2 is so old and outdated. Honestly how many of you have all 9999 WvW levels done? How many of you have ascended armor and legendary weapons? How many of you have map completion? How many of you have a decent rank in structured pvp? How many have all 50 fractal levels done? Crafting, ect, all of these are progression, the fact is either you just don't want bother trying, or you don't know what to do. GW2 has a bit more freedom than other games, it does not force you to progress, therefore players think there's no progression simply because it's not shoved down their throats. 

Realizer, I wasn't the one to bring that up, but to add to your discussion...First, I just wanna say I enjoyed Guild Wars 1 a lot and yes the progression in the game was based around "titles and fancy looking armor". I can't speak about Guild Wars 2, but those type of "progressions" matter usually mostly to the individuals themselves over the rest of the community. No doubt it's helpful to have hard to obtain titles, good looking armor that shows dedication and passion to the game.

You'll capture the attention of some and you'll be prefered to group with over others. Marvel Heroes Online has similar system with obtaining costumes, prestiging levels and so forth beside gearing heroes. At the end it's your gain if you are content with this type of progression. I could definetely see myself enjoying such progression system, but certanly not so much to support it by spending $ on it.

moonbound

Katilla said:

Kopogero said:

 That there is not a single game on the market that is:
"Free to play" - So, I can fully experience it and see if it's worth the commitment. I also highly doubt there is a product out there available worth spending $ at the moment, but those who care less about this already are in games like FFXIV, ESO, GW2 expansion and so forth...
"Secure" - mainly from hacking, heavy exploiting.
"Sense of progression" - So, I have long term goals playing the game. I like to play for year+ at least.
"Populated" - Healthy population (this depends on how the game designed though)
"Recent" - I'm not looking to join a server older than 5 years, based on knowledge of what's been available.

That's pretty much it. The rest is minor things like essential patches that expand the lifespan of the game (if it's themepark based around gearing and overcoming content). Competition is a plus, especially amongst players, but being forced to depend on individuals that may not be avaialble most of the time or not even exist to complete goals is no thx. I like to be able to login at 6 am, 6 pm or midnight and pursue goals.

So, yea as you can see my requirements are simple, yet even this simple of a product is apparently missing...I'm purposely trying to limit my requirements. I'm not even looking for a "MMO". I've enjoyed in the past other genre games with a sense of community, progression like Pangya (some old golf game ruined by hackers and Need for Speed World for a brief period). Currently Marvel Heroes Online is my primary game, but I do need a back up. I understand Wild Star going F2P this month, but my optimism is low on it.

Try Aion, there's NO restrictions whatsoever and it still has a HUGE population

I heard very different plus it looks like another anime influenced mmo.

Realizer

The thing is I'm not talking about titles, I'm talking about levels. I'm tired of people who obviously either don't play the game or maybe played it for a week saying there's a lack of progression when some players 3 years later haven't maxed out their characters progress, yet since they don't know what that progress should be, they quit and badmouth the game. Some people for example simply don't know what they find fun in an mmo because they have always had objectives shoved in their faces and told "this is progression". Well I'm here to tell you progression is just progress, it means new levels or things to complete that you haven't. If your flavor of progression is getting new more powerful armor every patch, go play WoW and stop complaining. 

Kopogero

@Katilla, in fact me and my friends purchased Aion on release, sadly I was only subbed for 2-3 months before I permanently quit. I bought some wings with massive currency, thinking it will pay off in the long run, only to see it shortly added as a veteran reward for year of less playing. When asked support to reimburse me, they didn't so I never returned...

Given how that server now is almost 7 years old, there might be still population, but I can hardly see that at least in Northern American servers. I need to get updated info on the pace of content the game is releasing now on it's themepark design, but I got a bad feeling given it's age, content probably is slower than ever, but I hope I'm wrong.

Realizer

  A current problem we face with game design today, is that it takes on average 3-5 years to design a first launch product mmorpg, players then go through that content in 6 months to a year. After, they expect new content, and they crave something just as good as the launch material. The problem with that is, the developers only had maybe 1 year, if they're lucky to work on said content, it will always be a watered down version of what they already know.

  The other problem is, people don't work for free, they go to school and pay to learn these things so they can feed their families. The average gamer wants more, and more for free. How are these companies supposed to pay the people adding content, while players refuse to pay out of spite. Unless you want your games with constant pop up adds for laundry detergent, and male enhancement products, that is.  It really might be time for some players to either find a game they think they could live with, and contribute to; or stop trying to play games that are persistent world. 

Distopia

Kopogero said:

That's where you are wrong. Anyone who's into the industry to make $ first before wanting to deliver a product they themselves would be part of will be usually met with a failure. Also, if $ is what is about then it's in their best interest to deliver a good product I and you would open our wallets to. I play F2P games, but it doesn't mean I spend $ on. Still I contribute far more to them with positive word of mouth and playing them, something I wouldn't even do on some with $ barrier in front.

It's not about what the individual developer wants, it's about what they can get financed. So the design must show a possibility of turning a profit if we're talking corporate funded projects here.

Tasslehoff35

I agree this thread is sad and disturbing...

RPGMASTERGAMER

lol realy funny thread we got here, honestly the only problem mmorpg got curently that they are almost no new good game and they miss the target audience, people got no problem pay 10$ to 15$ a months for a real good game ( final fantasy 14 do it right curently ) they got profit and put a good % back into patch and contents.

many dev release the game pay to play but get all the profit people pay each months after, do no update or add contents , then faill and go f2p with saying P2P DONT WORK!!

restart make Pay to play mmorpg and it will fix the problem

F2P are not real and they all suck anyway or you need pay for them way more that a subs !!
( dont name me the only few we know are good in the 0.1 % of f2p game plz )

Gaendric

Kopogero said:

That's where you are wrong. Anyone who's into the industry to make $ first before wanting to deliver a product they themselves would be part of will be usually met with a failure. Also, if $ is what is about then it's in their best interest to deliver a good product I and you would open our wallets to. I play F2P games, but it doesn't mean I spend $ on. Still I contribute far more to them with positive word of mouth and playing them, something I wouldn't even do on some with $ barrier in front.

Finally, yes as you stated you get what you pay for and I didn't pay for anything new that came out in almost 5 years because it simply didn't catter to me, while also managing to have a great time gaming. So, this is a win win in my eyes, since not only I managed to enjoy gaming but I also voted with my wallet...on what kind of future I want to see for gaming in general.

Seems you are caught up in somewhat of a chicken and egg problem.

If you never pay, how would anyone know what you are willing to pay for? 

If you had a great time in some games, why didn't you pay for those?
You are part of your own problem.

LacedOpium

Tasslehoff35 said:

I agree this thread is sad and disturbing...

I agree which is why I stopped responding.  A thread by an admitted F2P player who thinks he is entitled because he "supposedly" contributes far more via word of mouth than he would by opening his wallet, making demands on the MMO industry.  Here's a clue:  As a F2P you have no right to make any demands.  Take what they give you and be happy.  

Tasslehoff35

LacedOpium said:

Tasslehoff35 said:

I agree this thread is sad and disturbing...

I agree which is why I stopped responding.  A thread by an admitted F2P player who thinks he is entitled because he "supposedly" contributes far more via word of mouth than he would by opening his wallet, making demands on the MMO industry.  Here's a clue:  As a F2P you have no right to make any demands.  Take what they give you and be happy.  

Yeah the OP has some issues he made another thread how his dentist bill was $215 and he feels the world is getting too expensive and there isn't enough time for people to play video games anymore.  That's thread was more disturbing than this one...