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Change in the air

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  • User836User836 Member UncommonPosts: 117
    I couldn't make myself play the Early Enrollment but I still think the final product as imagined sounds pretty great. Would love for them to secure that funding they are looking for and get back on track.
  • goldwheatgoldwheat Member UncommonPosts: 5
    edited September 2015
    Finally.

    Given how simply bad the current game is, graphically, audibly, and mechanically, I'm neither surprised nor disappointed.

    And hey, look, there really are only three devs! :P  Yes, ok, that's a little mean, but I'm not apologizing.  They've sown chaos, and are reaping chaos.  Actions meet consequences.  Ryan isn't as smart as he thought, didn't know the market, and their demographic was too small.  Their inevitable failure was evident to everyone but themselves.

    As has been mentioned previously, in this very thread, the fundamental design is flawed and the market reaction has demonstrated this, again, is true.  As if UO, Darkfall, Shadowbane, AC2, Warhammer Online and Mortal Online weren't enough bad examples, now we have PFO to hold up as a lesson to all others? Great.  Thumbs up, Goblinworks. :(

    In the MMO landscape, PFO c. August 2015 is one of those hideous-flayed-corpse territory markers put up by radioactive cannibals to warn everyone else away.  Do not enter.  Go back.

    For the past 20 years, there has been a tremendous desire for player interaction that isn't shallow and crude.  PFO was both.  LEARN. FROM. HISTORY.
  • BluddwolfBluddwolf Member UncommonPosts: 355
    edited September 2015
    Audoucet said:
    Let this be a lesson to fanboydom.

    I'm actually a bit disappointed, I still had the secret hope that I would be forced to accept that I was wrong and RD was awesome. Geez, the poor guys who bought DT accounts in August...
    The only part of this that I'm happy about is the firing of Ryan Dancey, and the tears of the fanbois at his departure.  

    I have more confidence in Lisa Stevens to make better decisions and hopefully to make the game and the community more presentable to a prospective investor and or new developer / publisher.  

    One of the new, and best selling points is that Ryan Dancey is no longer CEO. 

    Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....

  • GolbezTheLionGolbezTheLion Member UncommonPosts: 347
    Bluddwolf said:

    I have more confidence in Lisa Stevens to make better decisions and hopefully to make the game and the community more presentable to a prospective investor and or new developer / publisher. 

    After hearing her state that they don't intend to deviate from RD's original design document, I have a hard time believing much will change at all.

    The core design of the game is unequivocally and fundamentally flawed. They have two options:

    (1) Scrap the game and start fresh with an entirely new design that actually fits the Pathfinder IP.

    (2) Close down the game and leave it at that. Lessons learned.
  • Rommie10-284Rommie10-284 Member UncommonPosts: 265
    It's done.  I cannot see the people in charge jeopardizing the Golden Goose, Pathfinder the RPG, by allowing the MMO to continue to siphon money away.  *Even* *if* they landed the 1-2 million in additional money, Crowfall is bigfooting the genre space they'd hoped to draw a player-base from, and 2 million dollars is pocket change compared to what they'd need if wanted to overhaul the game into something different.

    The RPG game itself has reached a decision point of how they move forward, as they've reached a saturation point for what they can possibly add to the huge pile of products without putting out pure junk.  The long-rumored new edition?  Keep or dump the OGL (ironic) at some point?  A new setting?  Paizo has enough to worry about in not ruining the core business to keep an anchor of a spectacularly-failed MMO around their feet.

    TL;DR;RP: "You put Goblins in charge of the project, what did you expect?  There's no there there to save, and you'll burn us down along with them if you try."

    Avatars are people too

  • MaquiameMaquiame Member UncommonPosts: 1,073
    edited September 2015
    One look at official artwork for Pathfinder the RPG and then comparing it to Pathfinder the MMO, and you can see a huge discrepancy. The whole game should be scrapped and started over. But it SHOULD be made. It just needs to be more like the table top. 

    BillMurphy
    I honestly don't know why it couldn't just be the next NWN with its own persistent worlds like NWN and Shards Online. That would be the way I'd be going if I was making an mmo based on a pen and paper franchise. Don't turn off your fanbase, they aren't interested in pvp.

    Your core audience wants a Persistent World Experience like Neverwinter Nights, period. Give them the tools to create their own worlds, they are doing that already in the Pathfinder Pen and Paper RPG.

    image

    Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!

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  • BluddwolfBluddwolf Member UncommonPosts: 355
    edited September 2015
    Bluddwolf said:

    I have more confidence in Lisa Stevens to make better decisions and hopefully to make the game and the community more presentable to a prospective investor and or new developer / publisher. 

    After hearing her state that they don't intend to deviate from RD's original design document, I have a hard time believing much will change at all.

    The core design of the game is unequivocally and fundamentally flawed. They have two options:

    (1) Scrap the game and start fresh with an entirely new design that actually fits the Pathfinder IP.

    (2) Close down the game and leave it at that. Lessons learned.
    What she said was that she wouldn't deviate far from the original document, but she is open to tweaking.  I'm hopeful that as time and discussions with the current player base goes on, her willingness to tweak may expand to bigger changes if asked for or truly needed.  

    She has to realize now that Ryan Dancy's original design document was a mix of "pie in the sky" game mechanics and flawed market analysis.  To cling to tightly too that is clinging to a proven loser. (the vision, not necessarily the person).   

    Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,944
    Bluddwolf said:

    What she said was that she wouldn't deviate far from the original document, but she is open to tweaking.  I'm hopeful that as time and discussions with the current player base goes on, her willingness to tweak may expand to bigger changes if asked for or truly needed.  

    She has to realize now that Ryan Dancy's original design document was a mix of "pie in the sky" game mechanics and flawed market analysis.  To cling to tightly too that is clinging to a proven loser. (the vision, not necessarily the person).   
    it was obviously very emotional and I don't think she wanted to lay the blame on anyone.  What I would be most concerned about though is the statement that came out after the call that said they only have the server paid through the end of the month and could continue IF subs stayed the same.  Honest, yes.. but concerning.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

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  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,318
    Loke666 said:
    @Loke666 Here is the link to the recording.  It should help you understand what was announced.  just the first 5 minutes or so is enough.

    https://soundcloud.com/duffy-swiftshadow/keepside-chat-with-lisa-stevens-9215

    Warning though.  It's kinds tough to take.  Not a good situation obviously.
    Thanks, listening to it right now. And yeah, it is pretty painful to listen too...
    One look at official artwork for Pathfinder the RPG and then comparing it to Pathfinder the MMO, and you can see a huge discrepancy. The whole game should be scrapped and started over. But it SHOULD be made. It just needs to be more like the table top. 
    Yeah, I am not sure why Goblinworks went for the IP from the start, they should have gone for Runequest or something else closer to the game they worked on instead.
    I am more than certain it was considered a popular IP therefor an easy cash grab.

    Moving forward having known now that Lisa has taken over and is running it i thought great news.However i did not hear about the part they can afford to keep the current game running but not to develop it.This sounds like a losing proposition,however as i mentioned earlier,i don't think she wants a black mark on her brand.

    My thought it that she will give it perhaps long enough to see if interest is high enough to sink her own money into it.My gut says this will not go well,they will use the rest of the month to get as much out of employees then likely just release a very shotty game.Then if money does not pick up in a substantial way and i don't see it happening,they will just go into maintenance mode.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • kikoodutroa8kikoodutroa8 Member RarePosts: 558
    "Moving forward having known now that Lisa has taken over and is running it i thought great news"
    Don't expect a miracle with her 3 devs team and no fundings.
  • JDis25JDis25 Member RarePosts: 1,350
    What is Pathfinder? lol @ All these people spending money on games that look like clay and play like old N64 titles...
    Now Playing: Bless / Summoners War
    Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
  • BluddwolfBluddwolf Member UncommonPosts: 355
    "Moving forward having known now that Lisa has taken over and is running it i thought great news"
    Don't expect a miracle with her 3 devs team and no fundings.
    Lisa said there is already patch 10.2, an event for this weekend, most of patch 11 is done and with the current sub numbers there is enough to keep the servers up and pay for 3 devs.

    Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....

  • AudoucetAudoucet Member UncommonPosts: 69
    Bluddwolf said:

    The only part of this that I'm happy about is the firing of Ryan Dancey, and the tears of the fanbois at his departure.  

    I have more confidence in Lisa Stevens to make better decisions and hopefully to make the game and the community more presentable to a prospective investor and or new developer / publisher.  

    One of the new, and best selling points is that Ryan Dancey is no longer CEO. 
    Well, I quit because of him and his ad hominem attacks against me, so I won't say you're wrong.
  • BurntvetBurntvet Member RarePosts: 3,465
    I could just not understand why you would secure the rights to an IP for a tabletop game/world and then design an MMO based on that IP to be totally different from what the original table top game was about. (What PvP was there in original Pathfinder? Yeah, none.)

    Made no sense to me.
  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 797
    Burntvet said:
    I could just not understand why you would secure the rights to an IP for a tabletop game/world and then design an MMO based on that IP to be totally different from what the original table top game was about. (What PvP was there in original Pathfinder? Yeah, none.)

    Made no sense to me.
    It's based off of Kingmaker.  But honestly it wasn't that popular of a product for Paizo.
  • AndiusMeuridiarAndiusMeuridiar Member UncommonPosts: 91
    edited September 2015
    This could be a very good thing for the game or it could be their final attempts to save themselves before dying out completely.

    With Ryan Dancey gone a new publisher coming in will have a lot of freedom to fix this game and set it on the right course.

    The major problem I foresee though is that they will have a very time finding a good company willing to tie itself to a game with outdated visuals on a game engine most serious developers consider a joke.

    Creating new visuals on a new engine probably won't be much easier than starting from scratch. The only thing they have pulling for them is the backing of Paizo but that name may not carry as much weight as many people within PFO's community presume it does.
  • Good_ApolloGood_Apollo Member UncommonPosts: 55
    edited September 2015
    goldwheat said:
    Finally.

    Given how simply bad the current game is, graphically, audibly, and mechanically, I'm neither surprised nor disappointed.

    And hey, look, there really are only three devs! :P  Yes, ok, that's a little mean, but I'm not apologizing.  They've sown chaos, and are reaping chaos.  Actions meet consequences.  Ryan isn't as smart as he thought, didn't know the market, and their demographic was too small.  Their inevitable failure was evident to everyone but themselves.

    As has been mentioned previously, in this very thread, the fundamental design is flawed and the market reaction has demonstrated this, again, is true.  As if UO, Darkfall, Shadowbane, AC2, Warhammer Online and Mortal Online weren't enough bad examples, now we have PFO to hold up as a lesson to all others? Great.  Thumbs up, Goblinworks. :(

    In the MMO landscape, PFO c. August 2015 is one of those hideous-flayed-corpse territory markers put up by radioactive cannibals to warn everyone else away.  Do not enter.  Go back.

    For the past 20 years, there has been a tremendous desire for player interaction that isn't shallow and crude.  PFO was both.  LEARN. FROM. HISTORY.
    The fundamental design of most of those games is perfectly fine albeit they generally appeal to a small niche of players (but still a group large enough to support PfO). It's just you who may not care for or prefer them. The problem with PfO is that 1) It's just a bad game with a good idea here or there and 2) they were charging a subscription for pre-alpha access.
  • AndiusMeuridiarAndiusMeuridiar Member UncommonPosts: 91
    @Goldwheat. What do you believe the factors are that propelled EVE to massive success for a game developed on it's budget?

    Having been a PvP sandbox enthusiast for my entire adult life I know that at least for Darkfall, Mortal Online, and Pathfinder Online what set them up as failures rather than success stories like EVE is not their core design principles but many massive mistakes on the part of their development team.

    Darkfall had one of the most difficult to learn combat systems ever. I learned how to macro AND purchased my first actual gaming mouse just to be able to compete. Couple that with a 2+ year grind time if you play obsessively but don't use macros to afk grind and the barrier to entry was just too damn high. That's the main thing that killed DF.

    Mortal Online had it so you could max a character in a week but you would need a dozen characters spread across 3 accounts to effectively play the game solo and if you change your bull much you need to reroll your character. Only a few of their hundreds of racial variations were even effective because there was no diminishing returns on min-maxing stats.

    PFO... it did more wrong than it did right. The game simply lacks soul or a reason to log on. 

    But EVE proves a PvP driven sandbox CAN succeed. 

  • Good_ApolloGood_Apollo Member UncommonPosts: 55
    edited September 2015
    @Goldwheat. What do you believe the factors are that propelled EVE to massive success for a game developed on it's budget?

    Having been a PvP sandbox enthusiast for my entire adult life I know that at least for Darkfall, Mortal Online, and Pathfinder Online what set them up as failures rather than success stories like EVE is not their core design principles but many massive mistakes on the part of their development team.

    Darkfall had one of the most difficult to learn combat systems ever. I learned how to macro AND purchased my first actual gaming mouse just to be able to compete. Couple that with a 2+ year grind time if you play obsessively but don't use macros to afk grind and the barrier to entry was just too damn high. That's the main thing that killed DF.

    Mortal Online had it so you could max a character in a week but you would need a dozen characters spread across 3 accounts to effectively play the game solo and if you change your bull much you need to reroll your character. Only a few of their hundreds of racial variations were even effective because there was no diminishing returns on min-maxing stats.

    PFO... it did more wrong than it did right. The game simply lacks soul or a reason to log on. 

    But EVE proves a PvP driven sandbox CAN succeed. 

    People like to state a game's success or failure hinges upon the things they either like or dislike about the game. Someone that hates PvP will say PfO has failed because it's PvP focused. We have a tendency to bias ourselves based on our own preferences and nowhere is this truer than with MMORPGs.

    The reality is that there is a community out there capable of supporting a game like PfO, the problem is that the game failed to capture that community. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether the game was PvP or PvE focused although admittedly a PvE focused MMO has a larger base audience to attract. However, this certainly doesn't imply that a game designed around PvP is invalid or "doomed from the start." That's just the people who want the game designed the way they want it and think they speak for everyone.

  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 797
    The problem is that you had someone whom had zero experience game designing directing the vision for this game.  That 'vision' is difficult for him to execute because you have someone that DOESN'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.  This leads to confusion among the team.  Lisa didn't know anything about the MMORPG industry either.  I'm not even sure they bothered to take a hard look at the competition and the competition's business model.  On top of all that you have an IP that screams PVE.  People whom have any familiarity with Pathfinder will think that.  It's natural.  It's what the table top is known for.  Even people that love PVP, might hear about the game and overlook it because of that fact.  

    Bottom line is they left cash on the table because Ryan Dancey has absolutely no idea how to run a business in the game industry and Lisa trusted him to do just that.  They were put at a severe disadvantage by simply not being a more PVE focused game based on their IP.  They could of easily attracted thousands, if not tens of thousands of more players if they went that route.  

    But the real killer was the business model.  Dancey refused to budge on it.  He thought that people were lying when they said they wouldn't pay for his crap model.  He said that people say one thing and they do another.  I heard him at a Pax panel talk about this very subject.  I heard him mention it at Paizo Con.  He also said something similar in a write up on this very site.  I have met him and listen to him talk in person.  The guy is arrogant and rude to other members in the industry.  

    And now apparently he is also a coward.  I truly hope with all the crap he has pulled in the past and with how he threw jabs at other devs (Bill Murphy knows what I'm talking about he was hosting the panel,) that he is done in this industry.  He needs to go away.  The guy is not nice.  He thinks trying to get as much money you can from people, however you can get it is acceptable behavior.  Regardless if it destroys a popolar IPs brand and reputation in the process.  So while there are many players involved in this debacle, to me the lion share rests squarely on Ryan Dancey's shoulders.  One day we might hear the truth about what really went down behind closed doors.  I think the community that supported the game with their hard earned money deserve to know the truth.  Right now I don't think we're getting the whole story.
  • AudoucetAudoucet Member UncommonPosts: 69
    "If you don't like what I give you, you will learn to, and you will pay for it."

    Seems not Ryan.
  • BluddwolfBluddwolf Member UncommonPosts: 355
    One of the issues was that Ryan, and many of the members of the echo chamber, would not accept the fact that PFO has competition.  He (they) believed that PFO was such a special, little snowflake and any suggestion that it was not or that it had serious competition was met with strong resentment and condemnation.  

    Even ent in the cases where it could be demonstrated that they were wrong in how a system was working, they would at best claim that it was a corner case.  At worse they would say it was lies or the spreading of misinformation.  

    That was the community environment that Ryan had created.  That coming to an end is by far another reason that PFO has a better chance in moving forward.  

    Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,944
    Bluddwolf said:
    One of the issues was that Ryan, and many of the members of the echo chamber, would not accept the fact that PFO has competition.  He (they) believed that PFO was such a special, little snowflake and any suggestion that it was not or that it had serious competition was met with strong resentment and condemnation.  

    Even ent in the cases where it could be demonstrated that they were wrong in how a system was working, they would at best claim that it was a corner case.  At worse they would say it was lies or the spreading of misinformation.  

    That was the community environment that Ryan had created.  That coming to an end is by far another reason that PFO has a better chance in moving forward.  
    Why do you state that the environment is coming to an end?  The community is still small and the echo chamber still dominates it.  Lisa has stated that they expect to continue with Ryan's design document. With 3 developers on staff (1 Art guy, 1 hardware/network guy and 1 game guy) I don't think it's realistic to expect much to change.  Even if they ignored the echo chamber and decided to make radical changes to the game, it would take them too long to implement.  They only have paid for the server until the end of the month.... they MIGHT extend that (if subs continue)... but given the news you have to expect that a chunk of players see the writing on the wall and move on.  Given the news (and no assurances that the servers will even be live in Oct) it seems unlikely that many new people would join.  

    I think they will simply keep the lights on as long as possible to try and minimize the chances of blow back on Paizo for all the unfulfilled Kickstarter pledges.  I doubt any significant development will continue.  

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

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