Do you think leveling is still viable this days ?

Alamonzoro

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Do You Like Slow Or Fast Leveling ?

http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/438647/do-you-like-slow-or-fast-leveling/p1

Alamonzoro

voting 

sunandshadow

I think that levels are more viable for some types of MMOs than others.  Leveling has always been bad for PvP, and has mixed results for group-focused games.  Levels are good for PvE focused games and solo focused games.

KenFisher

Yes.  It gates content, gear, skills and stats.

trisox

Leveling is still viable today if done right. I want to enter a world of adventure. If a game gates this adventure content, it is done wrong. On the other hand, having a compelling story and a nice presentation makes leveling quite a lot of fun.
slow/fast really depends on the above issue. if it is done right, slow leveling all the way.

cameltosis

Leveling is just a number increasing after you complete an action. It's meaningless in and off itself, it's the actions required to gain a level combined with the rewards for gaining a level that determine whether leveling is viable or not.

Axehilt

Is this even a serious question?

Countless successful level-based games exist.

How could anyone seriously imply they're not viable?

Pepeq

If anything, leveling is too fast these days.  The whole point is the journey and you can't have a journey in a day.  Last time I checked, your Mom didn't spit out a 30 year old... you really think childhood was a total waste of time?  If you do, get back with us when you are 60.  I can guarantee you that it's the one time of your life that you wish had lasted a lot longer.

People don't want to play these games... they just want to win.  There's a big difference between playing a game and merely winning.  It's been a long time since people have played these games.  A very long time.  They're too used to instant win to know any better.

Nanfoodle

I dont think every game needs the level grind. But if its done well, brings people together and is not a solo fest. Pls add leveling system.

deniter

This question should be 'Do you think an end game is still viable these days?'. Most games have a day or two of questing and some mini-games, then you get into an infamous 'end game' and repeat it for several months until the cycle renews in the following expansion. How is that fun or even worth anyone's time? What happened to progressing through content at your own pace knowing there's months and months of unseen content ahead to look forward to?

Loke666

Viable: Of course.

But what we really need is devs who tries out different new ways of progression. The EQ/WoW mechanics have been taken as far as they can by now and it is time for new systems.

Those systems can be with or without levels. Pen and player games like R.I.F.T.S have levels but they make far less impact there then in MMOs (partly bacause of the setting, it really doesn't matter how many hitpoints you have when a missile hit you, the only thing that can save you then is a powerarmor).

There are many options, you could gain specific skills and bonuses every time you unlock an achivement. You could use a system close to Warhammer fantasys with you instead of levels progress through a few classes. You could use something like Shadowrun when you gain Karma for doing challenging content and then buy upgrades for it. 

You could also mix levels with other types of progression, EQ already did this with AA points but you surely could do that a lot better.

My point anyways: levels can stay or go, the important thing is that the MMOs stop being exact cardboard copies of eachother. Yeah, not all MMOs are that but most certainly is.

rojoArcueid

Level based progression has always been viable

Level-less progression has more room for experimentation, progression choices, variety in general.

But just like other things, if everyone starts doing the same thing, variety and choices die. We just need different mmos doing different things. Lets see some level-less mmos for a change. TSW removed character levels but still kept character progression tied to an experience bar so they didnt really change much. Lets do away with that and create something different and better.

Nanfoodle

Loke666 said:

Viable: Of course.

But what we really need is devs who tries out different new ways of progression. The EQ/WoW mechanics have been taken as far as they can by now and it is time for new systems.

Those systems can be with or without levels. Pen and player games like R.I.F.T.S have levels but they make far less impact there then in MMOs (partly bacause of the setting, it really doesn't matter how many hitpoints you have when a missile hit you, the only thing that can save you then is a powerarmor).

There are many options, you could gain specific skills and bonuses every time you unlock an achivement. You could use a system close to Warhammer fantasys with you instead of levels progress through a few classes. You could use something like Shadowrun when you gain Karma for doing challenging content and then buy upgrades for it. 

You could also mix levels with other types of progression, EQ already did this with AA points but you surely could do that a lot better.

My point anyways: levels can stay or go, the important thing is that the MMOs stop being exact cardboard copies of eachother. Yeah, not all MMOs are that but most certainly is.

Packaging progression sometimes works. Skyforge uses Prestige over levels but it does not feel any different. Only games that did things different and it didnt feel like levels was skill based progression. Like SWG did at the start. EQN will be doing a system where you will have 4 tiers over levels. A tier 4 char can go back to a tier 1 area and its still a challenge and rewarding. Maybe they will pull it off. At this point unless everyone starts out at the same level and only progression is done by skill, I just dont see there being anything different. None leveling progression? Have not seen a really good one done yet.

rojoArcueid

MisterZebub said:

Didn't vote as a yes or no answer for me would differ considering game design. In a skill based system with many varying choices I'd say that yes leveling still matters.  In a on rails gear-centric themepark where what seems to matter most is end game activities, I'd have to say no.

Actually you got it backwards, IMO.
In a WoW like mmo levels move the game forward.
In a skill based mmo with varying choices you dont need levels, you get better by doing things right instead of just hitting X level in order to use a specific peace of gear.

Thats how i see it, anyway.

Loke666

Nanfoodle said:

Packaging progression sometimes works. Skyforge uses Prestige over levels but it does not feel any different. Only games that did things different and it didnt feel like levels was skill based progression. Like SWG did at the start. EQN will be doing a system where you will have 4 tiers over levels. A tier 4 char can go back to a tier 1 area and its still a challenge and rewarding. Maybe they will pull it off. At this point unless everyone starts out at the same level and only progression is done by skill, I just dont see there being anything different. None leveling progression? Have not seen a really good one done yet.

Well, there is always Eve online, it uses a unique system.  But yeah, good alternatives have been few in the genre so far.

I think the best way is to look on pen and paper systems and be inspired by them, that is where levelmechanics comes from as well and there are plenty of other mechanics that could be revamped for MMOs as well.

Anything that just feels like hidden levels is pointless.

Axehilt

Pepeq said:

If anything, leveling is too fast these days.  The whole point is the journey and you can't have a journey in a day.  Last time I checked, your Mom didn't spit out a 30 year old... you really think childhood was a total waste of time?  If you do, get back with us when you are 60.  I can guarantee you that it's the one time of your life that you wish had lasted a lot longer.

People don't want to play these games... they just want to win.  There's a big difference between playing a game and merely winning.  It's been a long time since people have played these games.  A very long time.  They're too used to instant win to know any better.

You can't start a post implying you stop playing these games at level cap (basically considering it "winning") and end the post complaining that players don't want to play these games, they just want to win.

There is a big difference between playing a game and merely reaching max level.  It seems many players don't realize there's more journey to be had, and fixate on an arbitrary destination, ending their journey early.

Daikuru

Most people are rushing to max lvl to do "endgame" content, so i think  leveling in MMOs is obsolete.

Valentina

I like personal progression, I don't like tying a number to it. I feel like traditional leveling is outdated, and it's time to look at lateral progression instead.

Loke666

Daikuru said:

Most people are rushing to max lvl to do "endgame" content, so i think  leveling in MMOs is obsolete.

Yeah, but the endgame often sucks. Of course if you skipped all the work you put into leveling you could make a massive and fun endgame but I still think only gear progression wont be enough in a MMO.

Superman0X

Loke666 said:

Daikuru said:

Most people are rushing to max lvl to do "endgame" content, so i think  leveling in MMOs is obsolete.

Yeah, but the endgame often sucks. Of course if you skipped all the work you put into leveling you could make a massive and fun endgame but I still think only gear progression wont be enough in a MMO.

MMO's today are often designed with level based 'filler' and endgame content. The only reason that people are leveling up, is to meet the required timesink needed to get to endgame. Then they get to play the game they wanted to play in the first place. Older games were not designed that way... when you hit the end, you were done, and left.

Think of chess, do people rush to get to the endgame, because that is where it becomes fun? No, there is just one game, and when it is over, you are done. MMO's used to be that way, and as such the leveling process was to slow it down, so you didn't finish right away (which made it more enjoyable).

Yalexy

Get rid of the leveling and the whole level-up content. Let us create a character with the abilities/skills we want right at the character-creation-process and be done with it.
This way we could enjoy a game full of endgame-content that doesn't become obsolete within a day or two.

And as we're on it, get rid of the gear-progression aswell. All gear should be crafted with the materials we harvested, gathered, salvaged or looted. Some materials would only be available by running dungeons, some would only be available from PvP-areas, etc. Something for everyone and all content has the same meaning... to feed the economy and keep the world alive.
To guarantee constant demand of materials and crafted items, all items should decay over time or by heavily using them. Repairs do work, but only so far before an item is totally broken.

I want to roleplay - i.e. play a role within the game - and not be forced to level through meaningless content.

Axehilt

Yalexy said:

Get rid of the leveling and the whole level-up content. Let us create a character with the abilities/skills we want right at the character-creation-process and be done with it.
This way we could enjoy a game full of endgame-content that doesn't become obsolete within a day or two.

And as we're on it, get rid of the gear-progression aswell. All gear should be crafted with the materials we harvested, gathered, salvaged or looted. Some materials would only be available by running dungeons, some would only be available from PvP-areas, etc. Something for everyone and all content has the same meaning... to feed the economy and keep the world alive.
To guarantee constant demand of materials and crafted items, all items should decay over time or by heavily using them. Repairs do work, but only so far before an item is totally broken.

I want to roleplay - i.e. play a role within the game - and not be forced to level through meaningless content.

'Get rid of everything that makes an RPG an RPG, because I haven't figured out that I can role-play in any game I want to.'

Loke666

Superman0X said:

Loke666 said:

Yeah, but the endgame often sucks. Of course if you skipped all the work you put into leveling you could make a massive and fun endgame but I still think only gear progression wont be enough in a MMO.

MMO's today are often designed with level based 'filler' and endgame content. The only reason that people are leveling up, is to meet the required timesink needed to get to endgame. Then they get to play the game they wanted to play in the first place. Older games were not designed that way... when you hit the end, you were done, and left.

Think of chess, do people rush to get to the endgame, because that is where it becomes fun? No, there is just one game, and when it is over, you are done. MMO's used to be that way, and as such the leveling process was to slow it down, so you didn't finish right away (which made it more enjoyable).

I don't think most player got that really, only a minority of the players even do the endgame.

And if you compare the content before and on levelcap most of the content is for leveling, far more then the endgame stuff. So I would say that new games generally aren't really made that way either, the experience points are just so buffed that you pass by most of the game in 2-3 weeks.

New games still have about as many zones at any given level as the older games had, they do have somewhat more for people who reached the levelcap but nowhere near what really is needed.

Loke666

Axehilt said:

Yalexy said:

Get rid of the leveling and the whole level-up content. Let us create a character with the abilities/skills we want right at the character-creation-process and be done with it.
This way we could enjoy a game full of endgame-content that doesn't become obsolete within a day or two.

And as we're on it, get rid of the gear-progression aswell. All gear should be crafted with the materials we harvested, gathered, salvaged or looted. Some materials would only be available by running dungeons, some would only be available from PvP-areas, etc. Something for everyone and all content has the same meaning... to feed the economy and keep the world alive.
To guarantee constant demand of materials and crafted items, all items should decay over time or by heavily using them. Repairs do work, but only so far before an item is totally broken.

I want to roleplay - i.e. play a role within the game - and not be forced to level through meaningless content.

'Get rid of everything that makes an RPG an RPG, because I haven't figured out that I can role-play in any game I want to.'

Roleplaying really isn't about gear or levels, it is about walking in someone elses shoes, experience wonders and adventure, about interacting with others and about telling a tory, together with others or alone.

Crafting your own gear isn't less or more roleplaying than looting the gear or just use the same gear the entire game. I played long pen and paper RPG campaigns without adding a single piece of gear to my character, stuff like that is optional.

What makes it a RPG is that you create a character and interact with the game as he or she would.

Nailzzz

Loke666 said:

Viable: Of course.

But what we really need is devs who tries out different new ways of progression. The EQ/WoW mechanics have been taken as far as they can by now and it is time for new systems.

Those systems can be with or without levels. Pen and player games like R.I.F.T.S have levels but they make far less impact there then in MMOs (partly bacause of the setting, it really doesn't matter how many hitpoints you have when a missile hit you, the only thing that can save you then is a powerarmor).

There are many options, you could gain specific skills and bonuses every time you unlock an achivement. You could use a system close to Warhammer fantasys with you instead of levels progress through a few classes. You could use something like Shadowrun when you gain Karma for doing challenging content and then buy upgrades for it. 

You could also mix levels with other types of progression, EQ already did this with AA points but you surely could do that a lot better.

My point anyways: levels can stay or go, the important thing is that the MMOs stop being exact cardboard copies of eachother. Yeah, not all MMOs are that but most certainly is.

 We'll to be fair to R.I.F.T.S (not to be confused with that P2W mmo that stole the name illegally and gamed the legal system to keep it) the level's did make a pretty big difference when it came to most of the magic/psionic O.C.C's or R.C.C's. Your dead on though about pretty much all of the tech related classes. Level's hardly made a difference for them.

 Sorry don't have much else to add. It's just been a while since i have had any outlet for my inner R.I.F.T.S nerd. Otherwise i completely agree. I think we both have a huge respect for Guild Wars 1 for the way it handled level's and horizontal progression. I also liked how games like TSW handled them, even if the game suffered from other problems that hampered the design of the skills themselves. Or even to step outside of mmo's, look at games like Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines which adhered very closely to the RPG itself.

Axehilt

Loke666 said:

Roleplaying really isn't about gear or levels, it is about walking in someone elses shoes, experience wonders and adventure, about interacting with others and about telling a tory, together with others or alone.

Crafting your own gear isn't less or more roleplaying than looting the gear or just use the same gear the entire game. I played long pen and paper RPG campaigns without adding a single piece of gear to my character, stuff like that is optional.

What makes it a RPG is that you create a character and interact with the game as he or she would.

Videogame RPGs have been about progression for 35+ years. So yes, RPGs are definitely about progression, even if the specific types of progression varies.