Quantcast

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Stigma, and label's falsely placed on the new Generation

Stigma, and label's falsely placed on the new Generation

Somewhere this roomer has to stop.........Players did not change. Developers did !.......So many times I see on this entire forum system of mmorpg.com, where players say :

1) No one is social anymore.

2) No one has time for more detailed games.

3) Players like easy.

Yet, when comments like this are made the poster is usually talking about others, not themselves.....Why is that ?.....Easy, because that's how modern games are designed !........This type is forced at us.



The player has to play the game according to developers rules !!!!!

- If you make a character and the game instantly puts you into a personal story.  That is what you will do.

- If the game is loaded with Videos. You will sit their and watch them. 

- If the game is made so ridiculous easy you will play by yourself.

- If the game is loaded with auto group dynamic events, you will not chat.

- If a game has a cross realm dungeon finder, you will not bother with a guild or friends.

This is how developers are making ALL MMOS.  No choice.



Players seem to come here daily to see if anything new had developed " lots of them ".....Yet the same person likes to say " no one is interested in a game like Pantheon !

Developers of  theme park, short, non-mmo games with others around you, like to make you think people are asking for the crap. Yet who are these people asking for easy.  No one knows, because they don't exist. 

Old school games just stopped being made.  No one ever asked for them to just stop, developers did that !.....Speaking of Old School, lets drop the stigma that Old School only stands for Old.  This is not 1999 it's 2015 games will not be developed with old crap engines and kill 10 rats, that is 1999 not Old School !

More to come, I have to get to work :)

Comments

  • DirtyblissDirtybliss Member UncommonPosts: 10
    The easy switch turned on when Blizzard gave in too the masses.  When they were making the money.  Consumers suggested these things and developers made it happen etc etc etc....... To hard care mmo players its mostly garbage. Everything that's been panned out lately but that's just my two cents.  
  • KenFisherKenFisher Member UncommonPosts: 5,035
    I enjoy the old-school new-school comparison threads.  It's a topic that interests me.

    I'm curious how Pantheon fits in with this.  I don't know the game.  Nothing about it.

    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Well, I think the players are formed by the games, if the game promotes those who are selfish antisocial jerks then people will play like that.

    The real difference between this generation and earlier is really the cell phone. 20 years ago when something had to be done quick that meant a week or so but people now (and that includes many people from older generations) want everything right now. The ability to instantly reach anyone, check the internet and you mails at any time anywhere do have changed people and it have changed you people more than older.

    People aren't bored the same ways they were not that long ago, on a long train trip you aren't sitting and thinking, you are on your phone.

    So I think time wise people have changed, they want everything now and the games mirror that. It is not really a generation thing but new technology tend to influence younger more than older.

    I don't think people are less social though and the difficulty thing is just because almost all games are easy today, I myself tried a few C-64 games a while back, games I thought was easy in '85 but now they were suddenly close to impossible. You get used to something, if a few more hard games comes out that are fun people will get into it fast.
  • trisoxtrisox Member UncommonPosts: 51
    The only reason developers say that people want this, is because other companies started making a lot of bucks going into this direction. So it became common sense, that this is, what players want. This will only change if theres ever going to be another game that has this huge success without the dumbing down you typically see today. One can only guess that this will not happen anytime soon, if anytime.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    The easy switch turned on when Blizzard gave in too the masses.  When they were making the money.  Consumers suggested these things and developers made it happen etc etc etc....... To hard care mmo players its mostly garbage. Everything that's been panned out lately but that's just my two cents.  
    Blizzard were not the only one, close to all games became far easier somewhere between Diablo 1 and Diablo 2. It happened during the last few years in the 90s and I don't think Blizzard started it, they just followed like everyone else.
  • ThaneThane Member EpicPosts: 3,509
    edited August 2015

    Stigma, and label's falsely placed on the new Generation

    Somewhere this roomer has to stop.........Players did not change. Developers did !.......So many times I see on this entire forum system of mmorpg.com, where players say :

    1) No one is social anymore.

    2) No one has time for more detailed games.

    3) Players like easy.

    Yet, when comments like this are made the poster is usually talking about others, not themselves.....Why is that ?.....Easy, because that's how modern games are designed !........This type is forced at us.



    The player has to play the game according to developers rules !!!!!

    - If you make a character and the game instantly puts you into a personal story.  That is what you will do.

    - If the game is loaded with Videos. You will sit their and watch them. 

    - If the game is made so ridiculous easy you will play by yourself.

    - If the game is loaded with auto group dynamic events, you will not chat.

    - If a game has a cross realm dungeon finder, you will not bother with a guild or friends.

    This is how developers are making ALL MMOS.  No choice.



    Players seem to come here daily to see if anything new had developed " lots of them ".....Yet the same person likes to say " no one is interested in a game like Pantheon !

    Developers of  theme park, short, non-mmo games with others around you, like to make you think people are asking for the crap. Yet who are these people asking for easy.  No one knows, because they don't exist. 

    Old school games just stopped being made.  No one ever asked for them to just stop, developers did that !.....Speaking of Old School, lets drop the stigma that Old School only stands for Old.  This is not 1999 it's 2015 games will not be developed with old crap engines and kill 10 rats, that is 1999 not Old School !

    More to come, I have to get to work :)

    sorry to burst your bubble, but no, not only devs changed their approach to games.
    gamers DID change.

    - If you make a character and the game instantly puts you into a personal story.  That is what you will do.
    "old school mmos" actually HAD personal story, it was part of the leveling progress and that's NOTHING new. but. 

    "old school mmos" actually HAD personal story, it was part of the leveling progress and that's NOTHING new. but. 

    - If the game is loaded with Videos. You will sit their and watch them. 

    so? is that supposed to be an argument?

    - If the game is made so ridiculous easy you will play by yourself.

    like wow eh? yea, but.... you can actually DO the harder stuff too.... you  just have to work for it, eg, start a raid or get yourself worthy to get invited to one.... but most people think LFG is wow's content, and claim "they finished it" after LFG... again, players changed.

    - If the game is loaded with auto group dynamic events, you will not chat.
    errrm. yes, we chatted in warhammer. so what now?

    - If a game has a cross realm dungeon finder, you will not bother with a guild or friends.

    wow  has a cross realm finder and a dungeon, yet i would NEVER player for long without my guild



    so, comparing you to me... i'd say you are another kind of gamer generation, and .... it's different from mine. aka: you guys changed.



    ps: players do NOT like easy, maybe you do?

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • ThaneThane Member EpicPosts: 3,509
    edited August 2015

    The easy switch turned on when Blizzard gave in too the masses.  When they were making the money.  Consumers suggested these things and developers made it happen etc etc etc....... To hard care mmo players its mostly garbage. Everything that's been panned out lately but that's just my two cents.  
    WoW still has normal, hardcore AND mythic.

    lemme guess which you saw so far, lfr? :)

    ofc the "hardcore players" don't play LFG, because it's made for the masses, it's easy, HC players will play the real endgame content and don't think it's LFR


    so, if you guys wanna make up some theories again, make sure you know what you talk about, and that you saw more than the easy setting of a game :>

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • KayydKayyd Member UncommonPosts: 129
    The easy switch turned on when Blizzard gave in too the masses.  When they were making the money.  Consumers suggested these things and developers made it happen etc etc etc....... To hard care mmo players its mostly garbage. Everything that's been panned out lately but that's just my two cents.  

    You can't blame them too much. In a world where every MMORPG developer was copying EQ, they did what they thought was right and it turned out to have mass appeal. I blame the culture where developers think copying the top game is the best way to succeed.

    No greater example exists than AC2. AC was kinda cool and even if it's ideas didn't work out. An AC2 based on it, but improved would have at least stood out from the crowd. Instead Turbine copied EQ despite many of us saying that copying EQ was a mistake (and I love EQ). As a result AC2 was an unmitigated disaster.

    I don't think its a generational thing. Different people like different types of games. The MMORPG community needs to catch on to that and not try to make every game into Wow.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,920
    So you don't think that when the global MMO playing population went from maybe 1 million total at the turn of the century to tens of millions now, the tastes of the average MMO player changed? Interesting.


    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 18,350
    Well op i think you are wrong lol.

    The CHANGE has happened to several areas and for several reasons it is not a simple black n white scenario.

    Devs that changed did so because of failure,losing money or players.Players may not have changed because we added a NEW race of gamer that started with WOW.Prior to Wow we had a totally different player base.

    Also i have seen on these very forums a VAST majority USED to claim cash shop was evil,ONLY fluff would be accepted.Well gamer's HAVE changed i see them supporting all kinds of rubbish from incomplete games to games that look like johnny stole 50 bucks from mom to make a game.

    If you support crap games  then they will keep on coming,as long as they are making money they will flood the market and more basement dweller devs will arise to take your money.

    Point is some devs don't change they simply make budget games ALL the time,the others ar forced change to compete in the market.

    The main reason for change is one upon a time,online gaming was expensive and rare,VERY few games to choose from,now the market is flooded an d every household has 2-3 gamer's.


    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,920
    Iselin said:
    So you don't think that when the global MMO playing population went from maybe 1 million total at the turn of the century to tens of millions now, the tastes of the average MMO player changed? Interesting.


    What some people seem to fail to realize is that it was at least some these old players and game creators that helped and wanted to bring about the more accessible MMOs that brought in the new avalanche of players.

    Also no matter what the new population of MMO players is I'm willing to bet the revenue generated by all MMOs combined are a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the gaming industry. Especially when you factor in the time and cost of game creation and maintenance after launch.

    While I personally feel the niche MMO market is still somewhere a company could make money I can't fault businesses for aiming for the safer and larger pay off.
    It's a bit of circular chicken & egg issue. My memory is of players asking for change and developers doing it - they specifically asked for the ability to solo and be self-sufficient. And I'm not talking about different games. You can see the trend away from more social, group-based and harder game play to more solo friendliness in the WOW changes over time.

    And it's hard to argue that easier solo friendly MMOs did not attract a much larger base of players who were new to MMOs. For many, that's all they've ever known.

    I don't think any kind of re-education campaign is going to turn that around any time soon.
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    So you don't think that when the global MMO playing population went from maybe 1 million total at the turn of the century to tens of millions now, the tastes of the average MMO player changed? Interesting.


    What some people seem to fail to realize is that it was at least some these old players and game creators that helped and wanted to bring about the more accessible MMOs that brought in the new avalanche of players.

    Also no matter what the new population of MMO players is I'm willing to bet the revenue generated by all MMOs combined are a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the gaming industry. Especially when you factor in the time and cost of game creation and maintenance after launch.

    While I personally feel the niche MMO market is still somewhere a company could make money I can't fault businesses for aiming for the safer and larger pay off.
    It's a bit of circular chicken & egg issue. My memory is of players asking for change and developers doing it - they specifically asked for the ability to solo and be self-sufficient. And I'm not talking about different games. You can see the trend away from more social, group-based and harder game play to more solo friendliness in the WOW changes over time.

    And it's hard to argue that easier solo friendly MMOs did not attract a much larger base of players who were new to MMOs. For many, that's all they've ever known.

    I don't think any kind of re-education campaign is going to turn that around any time soon.
    This is my memory of the situation as well. It also sent that message when folks started leaving games in droves for WOW.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    This is my memory of the situation as well. It also sent that message when folks started leaving games in droves for WOW.
    Same here. As I said while I think there are still enough people that would enjoy a return to the earlier days of MMOs that a niche MMO would be marketable, at the same time I feel like someone arguing with the iTunes generation that there are still people who would buy music on vinyl records.
    Agreed, at times I feel like one of those vinyl fans trying to explain to other vinyl fans that while vinyl is great, there's a lot that you're missing by using the format. While also reminding them it's not just the i-tunes generation that's using i-tunes...

    That's my problem with "give me eq1 and all with be right with the world statements". I'd think VG:SOH would be a much better structure to adhere to, while Brad mentions it in his focus here, he seems to have this contingent of people around that keep whispering EQ1, EQ1, EQ1 in his ear. VG had a much broader scope and accounted for many of the pitfalls a game like EQ brings to the table.It wasn't a game that had you fighting the systems in a game (which even then was extremely archaic), it was game that could have been extremely community focused given the right type of launch and polish.



    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Sounds like player advancement may be closer to Vanguard than EQ1 in regard to rate of progression and stuff like contested content. Question is, what rendition of Vanguard. Early Vanguard and the beta were much more like EQ but with more content to reduce bottlenecks. Shortly thereafter it was filled with solo content, quest progression and advancement in general became accelerated.

    I would guess we will see something more in line with the original Vanguard model.


  • KayydKayyd Member UncommonPosts: 129
    Distopia said:
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    So you don't think that when the global MMO playing population went from maybe 1 million total at the turn of the century to tens of millions now, the tastes of the average MMO player changed? Interesting.


    What some people seem to fail to realize is that it was at least some these old players and game creators that helped and wanted to bring about the more accessible MMOs that brought in the new avalanche of players.

    Also no matter what the new population of MMO players is I'm willing to bet the revenue generated by all MMOs combined are a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the gaming industry. Especially when you factor in the time and cost of game creation and maintenance after launch.

    While I personally feel the niche MMO market is still somewhere a company could make money I can't fault businesses for aiming for the safer and larger pay off.
    It's a bit of circular chicken & egg issue. My memory is of players asking for change and developers doing it - they specifically asked for the ability to solo and be self-sufficient. And I'm not talking about different games. You can see the trend away from more social, group-based and harder game play to more solo friendliness in the WOW changes over time.

    And it's hard to argue that easier solo friendly MMOs did not attract a much larger base of players who were new to MMOs. For many, that's all they've ever known.

    I don't think any kind of re-education campaign is going to turn that around any time soon.
    This is my memory of the situation as well. It also sent that message when folks started leaving games in droves for WOW.
    I can't disagree with any of that. I was in EQ forums as the player base became more and more hostile towards the unforgiving mechanics. However there was easily half the player base that stood up for those mechanics and defended the need for them. Those players do not have a home now and an entire generation of players have never had the opportunity to choose because the Wow model became so prevalent. Just as the EQ model was copied when it was the dominant player.

    I think, in the end it is a little like trying to say one genre of music is better than another. You'll never prove to a metal head that country music is better, even though a lot more people probably listen to it. The real question is: so what. Should all the metal bands quit and become country music bands or should bands just produce what they like and let listeners choose. Likewise, why can't game developers develop what they want and let players choose.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Kayyd said:
    I can't disagree with any of that. I was in EQ forums as the player base became more and more hostile towards the unforgiving mechanics. However there was easily half the player base that stood up for those mechanics and defended the need for them. Those players do not have a home now and an entire generation of players have never had the opportunity to choose because the Wow model became so prevalent. Just as the EQ model was copied when it was the dominant player.

    I think, in the end it is a little like trying to say one genre of music is better than another. You'll never prove to a metal head that country music is better, even though a lot more people probably listen to it. The real question is: so what. Should all the metal bands quit and become country music bands or should bands just produce what they like and let listeners choose. Likewise, why can't game developers develop what they want and let players choose.
    Yeah, and the worst thing is that the Wow model in 2004 actually werent that bad, today Wow and almost everything else have a larger difficulty gap from vanilla Wow than itself had from EQ back then.

    As for Metal Vs country that might be true of the US but if you go worldwide then metal rules :) But you are of course right, music shouldn't sound the same no matter what certain radio guys a record company employees think.

    But just because you play a certain style of music doesn't mean there aren't good and bad bands. Take the old metal band Manowar, they all suck besides the base player and even if I ain't a fan I have to admit he is technically very competent.

    The same thing can be said about MMOs, some are buggy and runs badly, others are really well made. Now, if there just were a few with higher average difficulty (don't start the crap by talking about a few hard raids added in a easy game, they doesn't make the game hard) things would be peachy.

    And every time something have the least difficulty, noobs whine until they nerf the difficulty to annoyingly easy. Happened to GW2 during the beta weekends and I am willing to bet most of those noobs quit after 3 weeks leaving the rest of us with a far too easy game. :(
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,573
    edited August 2015

    I don't think their was ever an "easy group".  THIS WAS MADE UP !

    a) Make the player burn through content for future expansion sales.

    b) To capture the 6 year olds, yes 6.  Parents didn't even ask for this.  Developers just did it.

    c) Easy = Faster.  Faster = less content = less development.


    Ramification's of doing so :

    a) Players find mmos boring faster, no challenge for anyone but the 6 year olds, yes 6.

    b) Players burn through content quicker because it's easy.

    c) Players burn through content quicker because less content.


     

    Metal Vs Country - My opinion, this may not a good example.  If you butcher one or the other then you have a problem, maybe it's just another way of looking at it.

    BUTCHER is a key word here.  MMO's have been butchered in a bad way for several years.  Developers experimenting with charts and graphs, are using false information if they are following WoW's example.


    NOTHING CAN STOP WORLD OF WARCRAFT, Nothing !........

    They can screw around changing the game to worst several layers deeper and still do well.  Even for the group that say its not worst, they can still do as they feel.  This is the "super top kids prerogative"....They can get away with anything !.....Complain all you like they will sell millions with the next expansion. 

    Hypothecly lets pretend the next expansion is expected to be very poor, extremely bad (were pretending). You and I both know the sales will sky rocket anyway.  One for curiosity, two for Veteran tier, it must be purchased.  

    - WoW is the big kid, they can do anything and get away with it.

    - They made the game easy, but they have 100 tons of content anyway.

    - They can have fast level, but they have a hell-of-an-end-game, with an extremely large following for it.

    - LFD was an unforeseen mistake, or at the very lease changed the demographic makeup of the game to make it a lobby game. Like World of Warcraft or not no one can argue that it's a lobby game. 

     

    MY point :

    Using World of Warcrafts charts and graphs don't work for others !  It's solid information, but not for any other.

    Post edited by delete5230 on
Sign In or Register to comment.