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Crowfall: No healing... be ready for zerging or get zerged

CopperfieldCopperfield Member RarePosts: 654
I truely dont get it..

MMORPG pvp game with no healing.. will this end up like GW2 zerg festing?

Why do companies keep moving this direction were the healing classes are removed..

It totally destroys teamplay aspect of any mmorpg

Gw2 already destroyed his teamplay aswell.. crowfall will go the same direction

Camelot unchained remains on top of the list..
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Comments

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,004
    edited August 2015
    I'm not sure having no healing is the cause of zerging, and I certain have played plenty of MMORPG's with formal healing that had lots of zerging in them.

    I think the lack of proper support classes such as strong crowd controllers is the real cause of zerging, in DAOC when a Sorc could AOE Mezz 20 people and freeze them dead it was a big incentive to spread out a bit and make sure you weren't all caught in the snare.

    No matter what you do, there will always be zerging, at the end of the day it's a valid tactic and if your side has the numbers, might as well use them to your advantage.



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  • tiglietiglie Member UncommonPosts: 43
    Everyone uses DAOC as the litmus test for good PvP and fails to realize that 100% of DAOC's success was the extreme specialization of classes and the synergy between groups.  Removing roles was a downfall to GW2, and unless they do something completely out of the box, will make this game into another modern "action" ie button spamming mess.   
  • t0nydt0nyd Member UncommonPosts: 521
    I like having healers. I just don't care for spam healing.  Tossing a heal here and there is fine but I bore of the healer healing faster than 3 dps can deal in damage style of play.  
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    I truely dont get it..
    MMORPG pvp game with no healing.. will this end up like GW2 zerg festing?
    Why do companies keep moving this direction were the healing classes are removed..

    It totally destroys teamplay aspect of any mmorpg
    Gw2 already destroyed his teamplay aswell.. crowfall will go the same direction
    Camelot unchained remains on top of the list..
    I don't get the correlation between healing and zerging, especially with no information on how quickly one can be re-equipped and return to battle, as that is a far better indicator of the ability to or effectiveness of zerging in a PVP game. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
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  • MukeMuke Member RarePosts: 2,614
    I truely dont get it..

    MMORPG pvp game with no healing.. will this end up like GW2 zerg festing?

    Why do companies keep moving this direction were the healing classes are removed..

    It totally destroys teamplay aspect of any mmorpg

    Gw2 already destroyed his teamplay aswell.. crowfall will go the same direction

    Camelot unchained remains on top of the list..

    If you think GW2 is about zerg  festing you haven't played the game right, don't have a clue about GW pvp and chose the easiest option as in "follow the leader and press all specials without having a clue about what they are doing and hope for the best pvp".

    Kinda sad if you can not think outside the easy 'tank-Dps-healer' setups.

    I LOVE to pick on zergs solo in bunker builds or quick gank&spank builds. Pick a target, kill them and nothing the 50+ can do about it.

    As for your Camelot Unchained promo: the game isn't even Live yet or has proven it's worth.

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • FdzzaiglFdzzaigl Member UncommonPosts: 2,433
    edited August 2015
    There is no correlation, let alone causality between no healing and zerging. You need to first explain in detail if you think otherwise.

    In fact, it might even be the opposite, especially if area of effect heals are availble. The zerg can then sustain itself longer.

    Zerging in GW2 PvE is caused by the fact that there are no reliable means to keep or influence mob aggro in many cases. Plus, it simply is the most effective tactic to DPS everything as much as possible while dodging in that game.

    As far as PvP goes, zerging is caused by people not knowing what they're doing, as always. There were never zergs that could not be broken.

    Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Healing or not have no impact on zergs whatsoever, in any game with certain amount of players in the same area you will get zergs.

    You can constantly heal yourself or other people or you can conserve you hitpoints as you fight, you will be forced to use different tactics here since you can't take too much hits but it honestly feels like this will mean people will try to sneak attack other players instead of zerging them because if you have a zerg the opponents will very soon have one as well and here your zerg will run out of steam pretty fast since you just can't heal and continue to run around killing everything.

    If you want mechanics against zerging you will need to reward people for attacking opponents with the same or more power then you will give out less loot and XP to people who gang up on others, not increase the healing power of players.

    ESO have far more healing than GW2 but both have huge zergs, that is because it is the fastest way to kill many opponents which means you get more rewards. Now, if playing in small teams or by yourself is more rewarding people will do that.
  • Carl132pCarl132p Member UncommonPosts: 538
    Muke said:
    I truely dont get it..

    MMORPG pvp game with no healing.. will this end up like GW2 zerg festing?

    Why do companies keep moving this direction were the healing classes are removed..

    It totally destroys teamplay aspect of any mmorpg

    Gw2 already destroyed his teamplay aswell.. crowfall will go the same direction

    Camelot unchained remains on top of the list..

    If you think GW2 is about zerg  festing you haven't played the game right, don't have a clue about GW pvp and chose the easiest option as in "follow the leader and press all specials without having a clue about what they are doing and hope for the best pvp".

    Kinda sad if you can not think outside the easy 'tank-Dps-healer' setups.

    I LOVE to pick on zergs solo in bunker builds or quick gank&spank builds. Pick a target, kill them and nothing the 50+ can do about it.

    As for your Camelot Unchained promo: the game isn't even Live yet or has proven it's worth.
    You can't just ride in here talking about gw2 pvp not being a zerg fest after years of it being exactly that. The fact that you like to have exactly zero impact on the game with your solo builds doesn't mean the game isn't a zerg fest.
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,778
    I don't see the correlation between healing and zerging. What exactly do you mean by zerging anyway? In most medieval / swords/bows style warfare it makes sense to bring superior numbers to the table.

    Getting players to think more about formations, holding lines, flanking etc probably needs mechanics like body blocking, friendly fire, terrain/positioning modifiers (eg longer range from elevation, hills impacting player speed, forests providing cover, etc), well thought out respawn options etc.
    ....
  • CopperfieldCopperfield Member RarePosts: 654
    what i meant is..

    By removing healing for a mmorpg.. all what is left aeo spamm fest. and or dps

    groupplay is completely destroyed
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    Absolutely no correlation between healing and zergs. Period. What a silly thing to insinuate.

    It doesn't magically remove group play either.

    Stop just heaving words from your fingers and back up what you're saying with some supporting facts or examples.
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 18,343
    People still don't get it ???

    The reason you end up with bad designs is >>>PVP

    Once you introduce pvp,there needs to be balance if not it will suck bad.Healing does not offer balance it creates lopsided combat.NO DAOC was NOT good combat,that idea is ridiculous.Crowd control as done in these games is FAKE looks unrealistic.

    I do not see the intrigue behind rpg's and pvp,it will never be done well,it will always bring about spamming and zerging.Being able to CC a whole pile of players does not fix the problem it creates a new dumb idea.

    pvp=player versus player NOT player versus MANY players.There is ONLY one way to focus good quality player versus player and that is in a fps with a good arena setting.PVP needs a good map layout,various weapon/attack choices,zaxis,hot points,healing,cover,escape routes and mmorpg's cannot offer these.

    I could post videos of incredible skillful pvp but most would just turn a blind eye,they want to believe DCUO was a great pvp game,they want to believe rpg's can have great pvp,well they can't.



    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • sanshi44sanshi44 Member UncommonPosts: 1,187
    edited August 2015
    what i meant is..

    By removing healing for a mmorpg.. all what is left aeo spamm fest. and or dps

    groupplay is completely destroyed
    DPS
    Crowd Control support (CC people)
    Terrain Management support controlling the flow of combat via changing the surroundings (Creating walls, pillars, slow fields and so on) (League of Legend Trundel/Anivia and so on)
    Buffer (Defences buff offence buffing and so on)
    Damage prevention (Creates shields on player to block dmg for duration or reduce it)
    PvP tank (Think Braum in League of legends pops a shield that redirects all projectiles to him instead of people behind him)

    Doesnt mean there no room for healer class (aka soraka for League) however unlike in say WoW or what not where healing is balanced around PvE having to heal rediculous amount of damage continously its not the case in a game more based around a moba style of combat imo so there alwyas a possibility to see healers in the game but not to the point of say in WoW

    and so on i spose the best way to look at things is how things work in the typical MOBA atm seems to be alot of what the dev are going for but in a MMO settings, seeing all classes get same skills but loads of variety of classes i suspect just like MOBA they be adding more on a regular bases to a degree. Think of campaings as month long league matches with muiltipul factions and player polotics. Even in league u sometime see 2 players 2v5ing a team successful when thing play out well for them.

    Any game that has player looting will always bring rise to zergs because people want to protect there shit and they do that by numbers even if there loosing a fight there less chance of them to loose there stuff because the chance of 100 people being wiped completely compared to say 10 people wiping is alot largers of them loosing crap. People just dont like to loose things unfortunately.
  • LorgarnLorgarn Member UncommonPosts: 417
    edited August 2015
    I don't think group-play is completely destroyed by having no healers, I do however agree that it is most likely affected by it. If that makes the game better or worse, that's up to each of us to decide on our own.

    I personally prefer a game with healer-roles, or at least heavy support-roles. They add another layer to the game and its combat, often adding to its dynamics. They, if done right, can add complexity and encourage more strategic play by extending a combat scenario between two or more groups of players. They help encourage groups to play more in sync with eachother, to play more as team with people having roles to fulfill and eventually master.

    CF not having healers is not gamebreaking to me, but chances are I will miss that functionality/role. Hopefully it doesn't take away much in terms of the complexity and strategic importance in pvp combat. Time will tell I guess!
  • Atis-nobAtis-nob Member UncommonPosts: 98
    Removing healers is not a problem itself, removing whole niche when many developers are straggling to add more variety to classes is core flaw here. I would prefer if healing was viable activity, just not foundation of everything like in typical trinity.
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,778
    what i meant is..

    By removing healing for a mmorpg.. all what is left aeo spamm fest. and or dps

    groupplay is completely destroyed
    Its a pvp game based on territorial control right? Group play will be absolutely essential. You just won't have healers. There are plenty of games, including all real life sports and warfare, as well as computer games, that do not have healers but also require group coordination to succeed.

    The presence or absence of healers is not what determines if group play is "destroyed".
    ....
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,061
    Kyleran said:
    I'm not sure having no healing is the cause of zerging, and I certain have played plenty of MMORPG's with formal healing that had lots of zerging in them.

    I think the lack of proper support classes such as strong crowd controllers is the real cause of zerging, in DAOC when a Sorc could AOE Mezz 20 people and freeze them dead it was a big incentive to spread out a bit and make sure you weren't all caught in the snare.

    No matter what you do, there will always be zerging, at the end of the day it's a valid tactic and if your side has the numbers, might as well use them to your advantage.



    DAoC did the best job at making zerg teams less effective. I would not call it a valid tactic, I would call it a lazy tactic =-) From both the side of the player and the developer. GW2 does have healing, lots of classes have HoT and insta heals are done by each class on them selves. IMO why that game is so zergish is the lack of a solid trinity system, limits of AoE and as you mentioned no real solid CC classes. 
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Nanfoodle said:
    DAoC did the best job at making zerg teams less effective. I would not call it a valid tactic, I would call it a lazy tactic =-) From both the side of the player and the developer. GW2 does have healing, lots of classes have HoT and insta heals are done by each class on them selves. IMO why that game is so zergish is the lack of a solid trinity system, limits of AoE and as you mentioned no real solid CC classes. 
    ESO have a trinity system and still is as zergy.

    Players will play use the easiest tactics with good rewards. And if zerging is a fast way to take down many enemies and get much loot it will be the standard tactics of most of the players.

    It is just bad risk Vs reward rate. Trinity have nothing to do with it. If it rewards better with 10 minutes working in a small team than 10 minutes in a zerg then players will work in small teams.
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,289
    No healing is dumb.
  • mayito7777mayito7777 Member UncommonPosts: 768
    what i meant is..

    By removing healing for a mmorpg.. all what is left aeo spamm fest. and or dps

    groupplay is completely destroyed
    Agreed 100% my friend.

    want 7 free days of playing? Try this

    http://www.swtor.com/r/ZptVnY

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,061
    Loke666 said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    DAoC did the best job at making zerg teams less effective. I would not call it a valid tactic, I would call it a lazy tactic =-) From both the side of the player and the developer. GW2 does have healing, lots of classes have HoT and insta heals are done by each class on them selves. IMO why that game is so zergish is the lack of a solid trinity system, limits of AoE and as you mentioned no real solid CC classes. 
    ESO have a trinity system and still is as zergy.

    Players will play use the easiest tactics with good rewards. And if zerging is a fast way to take down many enemies and get much loot it will be the standard tactics of most of the players.

    It is just bad risk Vs reward rate. Trinity have nothing to do with it. If it rewards better with 10 minutes working in a small team than 10 minutes in a zerg then players will work in small teams.
    Yup but they also have AoE limits, no solid CC classes. DAoC made the right mix with the trinity that made zerging the worst used tactic in the game. We used to go hunting with small groups to kill zergs. ESO is closer to getting DAoC model then GW2 but no one has done it as well.
  • kinidokinido Member UncommonPosts: 429
    No Healing completely turns me off from this game. I can't do another GW2 zerg-fest. 

    PS - All mammals have nipples.

    Get over it already.


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  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    bcbully said:
    No healing is dumb.
    Why? Now,, D&D and many other pen and paper games have healing but far from all of it have it and many who does have still have very limited healing. Warhammer fantasy RPG for example have healers but I played it for many years and never have one playing a healer, and still is the combat way more fun and tactical than D&Ds.

    Preserving your strenght and avoiding getting hit can be just as fun as someone spamming heals on you. But of course, you can't blame the healer for when you die that way.
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,289
    Loke666 said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    DAoC did the best job at making zerg teams less effective. I would not call it a valid tactic, I would call it a lazy tactic =-) From both the side of the player and the developer. GW2 does have healing, lots of classes have HoT and insta heals are done by each class on them selves. IMO why that game is so zergish is the lack of a solid trinity system, limits of AoE and as you mentioned no real solid CC classes. 
    ESO have a trinity system and still is as zergy.

    Players will play use the easiest tactics with good rewards. And if zerging is a fast way to take down many enemies and get much loot it will be the standard tactics of most of the players.

    It is just bad risk Vs reward rate. Trinity have nothing to do with it. If it rewards better with 10 minutes working in a small team than 10 minutes in a zerg then players will work in small teams.
    It's not even close man. Some people zerg in ESO. Most don't. It's not a stack on crown thing. Healers in ESO allow people to spread out. Plus the hit cap is 60 in ESO which makes stacking much more dangerous than the 6 hit cap in GW2.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,004
    Nanfoodle said:
    Loke666 said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    DAoC did the best job at making zerg teams less effective. I would not call it a valid tactic, I would call it a lazy tactic =-) From both the side of the player and the developer. GW2 does have healing, lots of classes have HoT and insta heals are done by each class on them selves. IMO why that game is so zergish is the lack of a solid trinity system, limits of AoE and as you mentioned no real solid CC classes. 
    ESO have a trinity system and still is as zergy.

    Players will play use the easiest tactics with good rewards. And if zerging is a fast way to take down many enemies and get much loot it will be the standard tactics of most of the players.

    It is just bad risk Vs reward rate. Trinity have nothing to do with it. If it rewards better with 10 minutes working in a small team than 10 minutes in a zerg then players will work in small teams.
    Yup but they also have AoE limits, no solid CC classes. DAoC made the right mix with the trinity that made zerging the worst used tactic in the game. We used to go hunting with small groups to kill zergs. ESO is closer to getting DAoC model then GW2 but no one has done it as well.
    Yes, I have to agree, and one thing that permitted DAOC to provide the wide variety of classes including support was the 8 man group size.  No other game has used it in recent years, which explains why they have had to combine everything into a "trinity" or even less.

    There was even talk at one time of DAOC going up to 10 man groups, in order to be more inclusive of some of the newer classes they added so the older ones wouldn't be excluded, but never went forward.

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