How do you stop would-be developers from fighting over game mechanics? Open-source development teams can work when everyone agrees on what the software is supposed to do and it's just a question of who will implement what.
True, some of the most successful opensource projects have been more or less clones. Way fewer design decisions to make that way.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
I spent several years in the Army and I've seen quite a few products that were Designed by Committee and they are universally shit.
The best way to get a good working product to market is for one single person to have a unified, directed vision while keeping a team of well informed advisers around him to point out possible improvements and/or mistakes.
How do you stop would-be developers from fighting over game mechanics? Open-source development teams can work when everyone agrees on what the software is supposed to do and it's just a question of who will implement what. But people most emphatically do not agree on how an MMORPG ought to be made.
Open source doesn't necessarily mean Bazaar style team structure. You can have Cathedral in open source projects. The Linux kernel is totally a top down deal with Linus in charge. Several other quality projects have core leadership making decisions. Sure someone can always fork a project but history has shown that doesn't mean automatic success and ship jumping. It can mean fragmentation, like the case of Open Office and Libre Office, but people like the familiar and what they know.
If I'm volunteering to work on an open-source project and I don't like the direction that it's headed, I'm going to quit. Especially when you're trying to get people to volunteer to do something that a lot of people are paid to do, people with enough talent and experience to be useful are going to have to really like where the game is headed to stay with it. But different people are going to want it to go different ways and do mutually exclusive things. Having a person in charge who gets the final say doesn't resolve this; at most, he gets to decide which group of people will quit.
You just end up with 12 different versions of the same game with no actuall improvement to the base game other than maybe maps images and spawns being slightly different. Then when you finally do get someone who does something and knows what their doing it's only 1 person who can do it part time and updates take years. For example, Astonia 2.
Open source is great for the tech part (assuming you deal with the additional security issues it adds), but that's just one cog in the big machine.
Like others said, in the end the game will need strong focussed art direction and a clear vision for gameplay, so for those parts you are kinda leaving the whole "everyone chips in and has a say" part behind anyway.
I'd love to see such a project deliver a great result, but it will only work if most of the people on the team are willing to put their egos into a drawer and throw away the key. Getting a team like that together is truly an uphill battle. Unfortunately game dev (especially game design) is Dunning Kruger Central. Most people think they are great at it at should have the power to make decisions, even though reality strongly disagrees with their views about their skill level.
The problem with OS is the fact that by nature OS software is designed by a committee. And well that can make for some pretty good software or even operating systems, it seems to lead to bland games. Think about it. How many fun, truly open source games are there at all? Not very many if any. Now multiply that complexity by about a billion. An OS MMO just is not happening.
Didnt Saga of Ryzom go open source? Dont see much improvement there.
Open Source projects still need managers to overlook the entire thing or else it would be a mess. A manager for combat , loot , monster types , art , animations..etc and all those would need to be on the same page as to what is going to fit and what isnt.
Open Source sounds great but in the end really isnt.
The games industry already suffers from a chronic lack of talent. It is crazy hard to find good developers / artists / designers etc.
So, if you have the talents, why on earth would you want to work for free on an open source MMO?
Beyond that simple obstacle, I'm not a fan of open source development (I'm a software engineer). 99% of the time, it produces software that is just dogshit. The remaining 1% of the time the software is OK, but usually only understandable / usable by other geeks and only works at all due to talented project leaders.
Finally, theres the motivation arguement. If you aren't getting paid, the motivation to complete work lessens and so timescales slide. Just look at SWGEMU. These guys have been reverse engineering SWG for nearly a decade now and despite having very clear design and direction, it still isn't finished.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr82 Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr6X Shaman
This isn't just games, it's the result of choosing economic policy over esthetic or moral goals. Has been going on in our society since the 90s, at least. A clear example is that publishing houses all used to employ editors whose job was to improve books before they were sold. Now? Nope, they're all gone, and editing is all on the writer because the quality of the book is considered to have a relatively small effect on sales income, which mainly only affects future books of that writer. The publishing company can just get a different writer if one gets a reputation for having poor-quality books.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
How do you stop would-be developers from fighting over game mechanics? Open-source development teams can work when everyone agrees on what the software is supposed to do and it's just a question of who will implement what. But people most emphatically do not agree on how an MMORPG ought to be made.
Open source doesn't necessarily mean Bazaar style team structure. You can have Cathedral in open source projects. The Linux kernel is totally a top down deal with Linus in charge. Several other quality projects have core leadership making decisions. Sure someone can always fork a project but history has shown that doesn't mean automatic success and ship jumping. It can mean fragmentation, like the case of Open Office and Libre Office, but people like the familiar and what they know.
If I'm volunteering to work on an open-source project and I don't like the direction that it's headed, I'm going to quit. Especially when you're trying to get people to volunteer to do something that a lot of people are paid to do, people with enough talent and experience to be useful are going to have to really like where the game is headed to stay with it. But different people are going to want it to go different ways and do mutually exclusive things. Having a person in charge who gets the final say doesn't resolve this; at most, he gets to decide which group of people will quit.
Possibly the worst thing that can happen with an Open Source project is success. Once money is added to the OS equation, troubles will really start. Then that project will need/want plans, schedules, agreements and the like in place that cover the distribution of that money. If the pile gets big enough, lawyers will be invoked. If the game becomes popular enough, someone will try to download the open source, make a few changes and possibly attempt to make money off it. When I think of how many variations of Rogue have asked me for money, I shudder.
And as Quiz said, a person in charge of a volunteer workforce can only determine which group of people will quit.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
<snip> Yes, reverse engineering millions of lines of spaghetti code gives me cancer. I had to do this at my last job (when it wasn't even in my job description) and I was about 30 seconds from death, because of the bombardment of hacktards. I ended up quitting after 5 years.
If you were in an IT position for 5 years, you should have learned that the only meaningful entry in a job description is the phrase 'other duties as assigned'.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I used to think Linux was going to be much bigger than it turned out to be. The main problem with Linux? The community. The community is far too divided on what what Linux is, what it should do, where it should go....etc...
What do you think will happen to an FOSS MMORPG project with all the gamer egos who know what is best start throwing their weight around?
I think the open source MMO would be a great idea! Even better, would be an open source "Player Area" to hang out in. Have a base level for your account. Have different doorways/portals to different indie MMO's that can all be launched from that central area. Your characters base level in the player area would help you speed through the lower levels in newly investigated MMO's (cutting down on boredom while clearing out the newbie yards faster).
I'm not sure what is meant by open source MMO. Quality games takes tons of resources, coordination efforts and agreement on vision and when everything goes well it still takes years to get to a finished product. And it needs constant updates and evolution to stay competitive. I'm afraid that won't work well in an open source context. The project is just too large.
Sure there is a lot of talent in the world, but how do you make them work together if it's not with money ;-)
/* Hmmm, my dodge and atk speed is pretty nice, but I don't like how I take lots of damage if I'm hit hard. So maybe I'll put more points into vit, but that means I have to take away points from something else. So should I do less damage, dodge less, get less crits, have less mdefense and mana?? OH I KNOW */
// Now for my weapon. I think I've played long enough (5 minutes) to where I should have something better than I have now.
characterGear.getWeapon(); // limpy stick characterGear.setWeapon("Sword of 1000 Truth's"); characterGear.getWeapon(); // "Sword of 1000 Truth's"
// Awesome! Just need to fix my armor and accessories then time to go kill some newbies and watch them cry.
If opensource projects were that bad none of them would ever get released.
It would be HARD to get a community together to finalize features milestones but its not impossible and like others have said a "Dictatorship" style of development would probably yield better results.
As for the post above, Opensource projects can / do have educated people that know what there doing and can deliver a high level of product.
what you wrote wouldn't fly either. As you can see from ryzom they have one main centralized server (managed by the company however) that disallows people to make modifications like you wrote above. instead they release the source and assets to individuals to compile their own client and servers.
Comments
The best way to get a good working product to market is for one single person to have a unified, directed vision while keeping a team of well informed advisers around him to point out possible improvements and/or mistakes.
Back in 95 I was part of one such project. Spent a ton of work on making a driver for a CDROM.
Hundreds of peeps put in a lot of work to get this project out and later one guy got rich off our work when he put it to the stock market.
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
Like others said, in the end the game will need strong focussed art direction and a clear vision for gameplay, so for those parts you are kinda leaving the whole "everyone chips in and has a say" part behind anyway.
I'd love to see such a project deliver a great result, but it will only work if most of the people on the team are willing to put their egos into a drawer and throw away the key.
Getting a team like that together is truly an uphill battle. Unfortunately game dev (especially game design) is Dunning Kruger Central. Most people think they are great at it at should have the power to make decisions, even though reality strongly disagrees with their views about their skill level.
Open Source projects still need managers to overlook the entire thing or else it would be a mess. A manager for combat , loot , monster types , art , animations..etc and all those would need to be on the same page as to what is going to fit and what isnt.
Open Source sounds great but in the end really isnt.
So, if you have the talents, why on earth would you want to work for free on an open source MMO?
Beyond that simple obstacle, I'm not a fan of open source development (I'm a software engineer). 99% of the time, it produces software that is just dogshit. The remaining 1% of the time the software is OK, but usually only understandable / usable by other geeks and only works at all due to talented project leaders.
Finally, theres the motivation arguement. If you aren't getting paid, the motivation to complete work lessens and so timescales slide. Just look at SWGEMU. These guys have been reverse engineering SWG for nearly a decade now and despite having very clear design and direction, it still isn't finished.
And as Quiz said, a person in charge of a volunteer workforce can only determine which group of people will quit.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
What do you think will happen to an FOSS MMORPG project with all the gamer egos who know what is best start throwing their weight around?
Quality games takes tons of resources, coordination efforts and agreement on vision and when everything goes well it still takes years to get to a finished product.
And it needs constant updates and evolution to stay competitive.
I'm afraid that won't work well in an open source context. The project is just too large.
Sure there is a lot of talent in the world, but how do you make them work together if it's not with money ;-)
It would be HARD to get a community together to finalize features milestones but its not impossible and like others have said a "Dictatorship" style of development would probably yield better results.
As for the post above, Opensource projects can / do have educated people that know what there doing and can deliver a high level of product.
what you wrote wouldn't fly either. As you can see from ryzom they have one main centralized server (managed by the company however) that disallows people to make modifications like you wrote above. instead they release the source and assets to individuals to compile their own client and servers.
http://www.ryzomcore.org/
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