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Why is it so hard to find a good MMO?

LazzaroLazzaro Member UncommonPosts: 548
edited August 2015 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
Ever since Vanilla WoW I've had such a hard time sticking to an MMO for more than a month or so and I don't know why.  Prior to WoW I played SWG (played it while playing WoW too) and UO.

I've been searching for 10 years to find an MMO that I can play and keep coming back to, but it's seems impossible for me.  Maybe it's my short attention span, or MMO's don't do it for me anymore, but I just think there hasn't been one interesting enough for me to stay for a long period of time since old WoW.

Almost every new MMO that comes out is missing or has something I don't like making it not enjoyable for me that I don't stick around(if it's not one thing it's another).  It seems like all these newer MMO's have lost the community aspect of the game and everything is Solo, or instanced PvP, instanced dungeons, etc.  It's just so hard to find a good mix of old school, thrown in with 'some' newer school mechanics.

I was hoping archeage would be that game, but look how that turned out.  I'm waiting on EQN, but we might not ever see that.  

Such is life.
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Comments

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,728
    Because "Good" is subjective. And 15 years ago, what a few hundred thousand thought was good, are now finding that it's much harder to get millions to agree on today.
  • LazzaroLazzaro Member UncommonPosts: 548
    Because "Good" is subjective. And 15 years ago, what a few hundred thousand thought was good, are now finding that it's much harder to get millions to agree on today.
    Well, yes good is subjective so what I like is not what you like, but to find an MMO that's a living and breathing world like SWG, AC1, EQ, old WoW seems to be much harder.  Maybe it's because I look back on it with rose titnted glasses?
  • FomaldehydeJimFomaldehydeJim Member UncommonPosts: 673
    Lazzaro said:
    Because "Good" is subjective. And 15 years ago, what a few hundred thousand thought was good, are now finding that it's much harder to get millions to agree on today.
    Well, yes good is subjective so what I like is not what you like, but to find an MMO that's a living and breathing world like SWG, AC1, EQ, old WoW seems to be much harder.  Maybe it's because I look back on it with rose titnted glasses?
    Clearly. Your first experience is always the best. Everything gets old with repetition and all that jazz. 
  • LazzaroLazzaro Member UncommonPosts: 548
    Lazzaro said:
    Because "Good" is subjective. And 15 years ago, what a few hundred thousand thought was good, are now finding that it's much harder to get millions to agree on today.
    Well, yes good is subjective so what I like is not what you like, but to find an MMO that's a living and breathing world like SWG, AC1, EQ, old WoW seems to be much harder.  Maybe it's because I look back on it with rose titnted glasses?
    Clearly. Your first experience is always the best. Everything gets old with repetition and all that jazz. 
    Maybe, but WoW wasn't my first MMO, not even close.  UO and SWG OK, that's fair.
  • RenfailRenfail Member RarePosts: 1,336
    Lazzaro said:
    Because "Good" is subjective. And 15 years ago, what a few hundred thousand thought was good, are now finding that it's much harder to get millions to agree on today.
    Well, yes good is subjective so what I like is not what you like, but to find an MMO that's a living and breathing world like SWG, AC1, EQ, old WoW seems to be much harder.  Maybe it's because I look back on it with rose titnted glasses?
    It's not so much that it's rose colored classes. It's that most of those games have fundamentally changed and are no longer the same. 

    I mentioned this in a recent blog post on the fact that those of us who appreciated the old-school games haven't disappeared or gone away. We're still here. It's just that the industry evolved around us. 

    For example, I relish and miss the days of forced grouping. EQ1, Vanilla WoW, even LOTRO up until the Mines of Moria expansion was an incredible group-based game where you required other players to complete the content. 

    None of those games still feature group content, at least not in the way it was done in the old days, when it was required. Now it's 100% optional, and players always take the path of least resistance, i.e. solo. That's human nature. So if you eliminate the required grouping aspect, those games evolve all on their own. 

    Daybreak has done a good job of looking to take EQ1 and EQ2 back to the golden days with their progression servers, but you can see a massive change in how players of today consume the content compared to when they used to consume it 15 years ago. Back then, the preference was NOT to box, but instead to group up with other players. Now, many would rather 3 or 4 or 5 box their own group rather than work together with other players, because it's the entitelement generation. 

    Again, not the fault of you or I, and not rose-tinted glasses, simply an evolution in mindset. 

    When we were playing the early forms of MMORPG, we were the majority, so most games out there were designed for us. Now, the majority has changed, so we see the bulk of games catering to the entitelement generation as opposed to our generation. Games for us still exist ,but they are fewer and further between. 

    Thankfully, there's a revival going on right now of old-school games to cater to our generation. Pantheon and Gorgon are two we're looking forward to with equal anticipation outside of our own, Saga of Lucimia. So there is hope for those of us who thrive on group-based gameplay and old-school mechanics without all the watered-down stuff that has taken over since then. 

    And the best thing is you won't need rose-tinted goggles to play. You'll be able to enjoy these games just for what they are, since they cater to the old-school!
    Tim "Renfail" Anderson | Creative Director | The Saga of Lucimia MMORPG
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,728
    Lazzaro said:
    Because "Good" is subjective. And 15 years ago, what a few hundred thousand thought was good, are now finding that it's much harder to get millions to agree on today.
    Well, yes good is subjective so what I like is not what you like, but to find an MMO that's a living and breathing world like SWG, AC1, EQ, old WoW seems to be much harder.  Maybe it's because I look back on it with rose titnted glasses?
    What I am trying to say is, because of the success of games like WoW, there are many more people playing MMOs now. Trying to create a game that appeals to that population is much more difficult that it was when you only expected a qtr to half mil players to be a highly successful game.

    Now, if some devloper wants to come along and invest money in a game that will only appeal to that pre-2k4 population. There might be a game that a few hundred thousand would call "good".

    But...........it seems only one or two indies are / were willing to try that. But they seem to be struggling or failing depending on which title.
  • NightHaveNNightHaveN Member UncommonPosts: 1,050
    For community you only need to find a good guild.  But in my experience is more difficult to find a good one in F2P games.

    But also don't blame games when people want to do solo stuff these days.
  • LazzaroLazzaro Member UncommonPosts: 548
    edited August 2015
    For community you only need to find a good guild.  But in my experience is more difficult to find a good one in F2P games.

    But also don't blame games when people want to do solo stuff these days.
    That's the problem.

    I like being able to solo, and having to group for everything is a turn off personally. But  there needs to be a healthy median between the two and not just for dungeons or raids like FFXIV, but like what SWG had, or UO, or Vanilla WoW.


    I love seeing general chat call out LFM to take down a boss or a group of mobs in an open world.  That's how you build community and keep people playing.

    Also, there needs to be more than just combat.  I had a Musician only character in SWG and all I did was play music in the cantina and give buffs to my friends and others, I made so many cool friends.  There was a top quality crafter on my server and we had a little thing where I would go out and get him the stuff he needed that he couldn't get because he had no combat skills and he payed me loads of credits for doing so.  We had an awesome system.  It's stuff like that I miss.
  • FomaldehydeJimFomaldehydeJim Member UncommonPosts: 673
    You know what you need? Beer with mates down the pub, will resolve all those issues. 
  • FomaldehydeJimFomaldehydeJim Member UncommonPosts: 673
    but fuck that Cry Little Sister from Lost Boys has come on 

    Love this tune 
  • LazzaroLazzaro Member UncommonPosts: 548
    You know what you need? Beer with mates down the pub, will resolve all those issues. 
    I do that almost every weekend :chuffed: 
  • User836User836 Member UncommonPosts: 117
    Both the players themselves and the games change.. you said you liked "old WoW". I think I get that (but I may be completely wrong). I like "old" versions of most MMOs better myself, before everyone reaches max level, abandons all but the end-game zones and focus (both from player and developer perspective) switches to raid progression, battlegrounds, sieges, daily quests, stats, streamlining the experience and whatever. These activities are fine and good entertainment and I partake in them too (so not pointing fingers or anything :/ ) but the "world" of the MMO gets left behind and the game gets more "gameified" from my personal experience as it ages.
    I have been able to ride the wave of a couple of MMORPG launches, taking part in low level group content in open world and dungeons with other new players and that wonderful period in a game's life cycle is to me just great. As time passes, those zones empty out and no one groups (because everyone is a speed-levelling alts or rushing to endgame following a levelling guide because they need to catch up and get to where the game "starts").
    Nowadays I suspect that this loop has been repeated so many times that the period of excitement and wonder shortens because we all "know" that games really begin at max level and that developers know that players think this way and adapt their games accordingly (thus maybe the online worlds of today are poorer than those of times past, since the "game" has priority over the "world"?).

    I for one would love to somehow break this cycle, keep the magic going and if possible enhance the feeling of connectedness to the world and the lore as the game keeps going (or at least try to prevent the rapid disenchantment), making the game and the lore more rather than less immersive over time but I don't know how that could be done.

    My 2 cents. BTW, I enjoy "end game" too but I mourn the loss of everything that is sacrificed in order to provide it.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Lazzaro said:
    Ever since Vanilla WoW I've had such a hard time sticking to an MMO for more than a month or so and I don't know why.  Prior to WoW I played SWG (played it while playing WoW too) and UO.


    Are you looking for the WOW style of gameplay? If so, try not comparing the MMOs and play each based on their own merits. Hobbies are a lot like relationships, and if you post here, MMOs are more than likely a hobby or an interest greater to you than "just a game."

    If you are looking for some specific aspect of MMOs (social interaction, PVP, raids, massively multiplayer, etc) then try looking outside of the EQ/WOW style games. 





    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • VardahothVardahoth Member RarePosts: 1,472
    edited August 2015
    @OP

    My sig explains everything. You will never see games like UO style again. Players today just can't handle it.

    If you are too lazy to read the two links in my sig, here is the video:


    Post edited by Vardahoth on

    I Quit.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436845/page/1 -> http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/436845/what-killed-mmorpgs-for-you/p1

    http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2316034
    .............
    Retired Gamer: all MMORPG's have been destroyed by big business, marketing of false promises, unprofessional game makers, and a generation of "I WIN and GIVE ME NOW" (brought to you by pokeman).

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,213
    You are not alone,forum run amok with people claiming "GREAT GAME" i usually lol because in 2 months nobody cares about that game anymore.

    Impulsive bored gamer's are ruining the market because as long as devs can keep making a tidy profit from crap games ,they will keep doing it.
    I don't get angry but it sure does make me cringe when i see the hundreds,thousands of utter crap games advertised on this site.Along with that the so called reviews,previews it is all the same  marketing junk,trying to impose really bad games onto the public just to make a buck.Then of course gamer's in the drones go out and buy all these games and likely don't even realize they wasted their money and set a bad precedent.

    I am not perfect either,i have bought some really bad games and even with my long time gaming knowledge and knowing those games would likely be crap.So yes i have also stupidly supported bad cheap game designs.Those devs make some nice profits then come back for more.However my stance of late has changed a lot from earlier years,i walk away from bad decisions and poor game developers.

    There are only two mmorpg's i would play right now,FFXI and EQ2 nothing else is even remotely on my radar.I put those two games at a 7/10 everything else less than 5/10. I think what keeps me going is right when i am about to give up hope i see some new developer or idea pop up and rejuvenate my hope for the genre.

    The underlying problem one that i guess has plagued mankind for a very long time is >>$$$$$$,it is futile to attempt game development without it.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • KenFisherKenFisher Member UncommonPosts: 5,035
    For me the issue of sticking with an MMO boils down to two things, people and fun.

    I was in a cool guild.  Stuff exploded, guild broke up.  No more guild.

    I was playing and it occurred to me:  There is nobody on the server who cares that I am here or not, and I'm not having fun in the game.  So why am I here?

    • I don't want to be in a guild just because the other people need me to reach their goals in group content.
    • I don't want to be invited into a guild just because others get some XP bonus if the guild gets big.
    • I'm certainly not going to join a guild to show off what a super-fantastic ultra-skilled player I am, because I'm not.

    My solution?  I setup something here at the house so my GF and I can play for a gaming fix.  And the only online game we play regularly is a tablet MOBA-RPG hybrid where we were lucky enough to find a cool guild.


    TL;DR:  If I don't find a good guild, I solo for a while then leave.  Eventually I setup a LAN party game and stopped looking.

    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
  • BoneserinoBoneserino Member UncommonPosts: 1,764
    XAPKen said:
    For me the issue of sticking with an MMO boils down to two things, people and fun.

    I was in a cool guild.  Stuff exploded, guild broke up.  No more guild.

    I was playing and it occurred to me:  There is nobody on the server who cares that I am here or not, and I'm not having fun in the game.  So why am I here?

    • I don't want to be in a guild just because the other people need me to reach their goals in group content.
    • I don't want to be invited into a guild just because others get some XP bonus if the guild gets big.
    • I'm certainly not going to join a guild to show off what a super-fantastic ultra-skilled player I am, because I'm not.

    My solution?  I setup something here at the house so my GF and I can play for a gaming fix.  And the only online game we play regularly is a tablet MOBA-RPG hybrid where we were lucky enough to find a cool guild.


    TL;DR:  If I don't find a good guild, I solo for a while then leave.  Eventually I setup a LAN party game and stopped looking.
    Agree completely XAPKen.   You have to find the right mix of peeps to play with.  Its  a difficult thing to do but it has happened in probably 3 MMO's that I have played.   And those were my best MMO expereinces.  But eventually they end, and I think what we end up searching for is not so much a game as it is the right atmosphere and the right group of friends that you enjoy playing with.

    The OP even alluded to this with his story about playing SWG.

    What I found hilarious about this thread was Renfail.  He sees the OP mention UO, SWG and WoW and then automatically assumes the OP is an old school fan who wants hardcore forced grouping, and then quickly shuts up again when OP said he also likes soloing.   When are we going to realize that even people who say they are "hardcore" or "old school" all want something different here? 

    In fact I think the only thing that the majority of us really want in an MMO is a fun game with a good group of people to play it with.   And that doesn't mean forcing people to do it, it means making them want to do it and making it enjoyable for them to do it, if they so wish.

    Just to add here, in two of those great guild experiences I had , the leaders were both top level players.  They knew the game inside out.  But they also were willing to help and share that knowledge with others.   And they were damn nice people.  In fact one was just a kid of 17 years old but I swear he was more mature than 90% of the so called adults I play with.  So it generally takes that really good person at the top to hold things together, but also its that person that brings in all the other good people as well.   Hard find but so rewarding if you do.

    Anyway I guess the point here is that next time you look at a game OP, try looking at it from a community aspect, rather than just the nuts and bolts of the game.   Almost any game can be enjoyable and one you want to return to if the right people are in it, IMO.

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • vadio123vadio123 Member UncommonPosts: 593
    Easy... you become older and try find one mmo fit all you like because this you forget to enjoy each mmo aspect Massively Multiplayer Online most mmo in this day push you to SOLO and Random group content to people dont need invest thousands time but this mmos forget , its not only game to build around solo players or casual , to be good mmo you need goals , self goals , community goals and find people want to do 
  • ceratop001ceratop001 Member RarePosts: 1,584
    The industry has gone really downhill in my American opinion. The reason I say American is because most of the new games seem to be catering Asian players. Americans crave a different style of game play we can relate too. The genre labels us under the western mmo, mmorpgs markets, but I say were a bit different from even that classification. In my opinion we crave some grind in our games but not excessive. We like to to build our characters to our liking. American players want to earn their gear and not necessarily pay for it in some cash shop. The bottom line individuality is important to us, and that's how we differ from the Asian market. I could go on an on with our distinct differences but not trying to write a book here.

    Cheers...
     
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,769
    The basic mechanics of the MMO game has not really changed in well over 15 years. Developers today do not feel MMOs are the future of gaming online. Even Blizzard must have thought this with the cancel of Titan. I think the future of the genre lies in the hands of the fans and the small developer. I think games like Shards and Gorgon will be just a couple of the many many games that will try and do what you and many of us are wanting.

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • ragz45ragz45 Member UncommonPosts: 808
    Renfail said:
    Thankfully, there's a revival going on right now of old-school games to cater to our generation. Pantheon and Gorgon are two we're looking forward to with equal anticipation outside of our own, Saga of Lucimia. So there is hope for those of us who thrive on group-based gameplay and old-school mechanics without all the watered-down stuff that has taken over since then. 

    And the best thing is you won't need rose-tinted goggles to play. You'll be able to enjoy these games just for what they are, since they cater to the old-school!
    The big issue with the new revival of old school games, is most of them have the circa 1999 graphics.  I love the idea, systems, and almost everything about Gorgon.  But the graphics are just so dated I can't play it, just can not do it.  Pantheon is the one saving grace I'm seeing on the horizon in regards to being an oldschool game with newer generation graphics, am I am looking forward to it as well.

    As far as the rest go?  I would be excited for them if they looked a little nicer.  Yes I understand limited budget etc etc.  But there is a point where I just don't get any enjoyment out of a game that looks too old.
  • KenFisherKenFisher Member UncommonPosts: 5,035
    [...]
    [...] In fact one was just a kid of 17 years old but I swear he was more mature than 90% of the so called adults I play with.

    Mild tangent:  One memorable experience I had with our guild.  We had to take a break from a dungeon run because the tank had to AFK for a couple minutes.  His mom wanted him to take out the trash.

    I had no clue he was young.  He was one of the most mature and personable people in the guild.

    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,769
    ragz45 said:
    Renfail said:
    Thankfully, there's a revival going on right now of old-school games to cater to our generation. Pantheon and Gorgon are two we're looking forward to with equal anticipation outside of our own, Saga of Lucimia. So there is hope for those of us who thrive on group-based gameplay and old-school mechanics without all the watered-down stuff that has taken over since then. 

    And the best thing is you won't need rose-tinted goggles to play. You'll be able to enjoy these games just for what they are, since they cater to the old-school!
    The big issue with the new revival of old school games, is most of them have the circa 1999 graphics.  I love the idea, systems, and almost everything about Gorgon.  But the graphics are just so dated I can't play it, just can not do it.  Pantheon is the one saving grace I'm seeing on the horizon in regards to being an oldschool game with newer generation graphics, am I am looking forward to it as well.

    As far as the rest go?  I would be excited for them if they looked a little nicer.  Yes I understand limited budget etc etc.  But there is a point where I just don't get any enjoyment out of a game that looks too old.

    You know I have to agree here. I hate to sound like a graphics snob but I think in this generation I have slightly become one. Too many games have come out like the Witcher 3 that makes it harder to stomach graphics that look at least 10 years old. I too understand budget limits but graphics,like sound, help immerse you in the world.It is heading closer to 2016. Not 2000.

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,786
    Lazzaro said:
    Because "Good" is subjective. And 15 years ago, what a few hundred thousand thought was good, are now finding that it's much harder to get millions to agree on today.
    Well, yes good is subjective so what I like is not what you like, but to find an MMO that's a living and breathing world like SWG, AC1, EQ, old WoW seems to be much harder.  Maybe it's because I look back on it with rose titnted glasses?
    For me Aion and GW2 have living breathing worlds.  Where else can I see kids playing in the background.  People talking about the latest gossip and hear about their day to day problems, while I explore in GW2?

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 6,008
    Here's the question for you op: If you could play(which you most decidedly can) vanilla wow today...would you enjoy it? The same goes for all the "classical" games: Eq 1 / 2 , daoc, guild wars. So...would you enjoy the 100% vanilla taste?
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