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Kind of Disappointed with FFXIV

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  • Darkfalz89Darkfalz89 Member UncommonPosts: 581

    danwest58 said:
    Cynthe said:
    Albatroes said:
    You could blame WOW on this however its really not WOW's fault because players no longer are interested in a game when they have all the best gear and have to wait years to months to upgrade it.  Take the time between WOTLK and today's WOW, players quit when they have all the best gear and there is nothing else to do for 10 to 16 months while they wait on the next expansion.  So instead of making content like Vanilla or TBC where large portions of your player base cannot get into the content they went to the other extreme and give everyone a ton of powerful gear.  It sucks however its the truth.  

    Until Endgame gets better balance in MMOs altogether its hard to expect much else.  The core problem with any balance is the self entitled players who will complain that the best gear is in Raiding even if its 8 man raiding however these players all they will ever want to do is dungeons and even if you make really good gear come out of dungeons these entitled people will bitch they need raid gear.  This is coming from a person who in WOW only did Kara and ZA in TBC who didnt care that I didnt get Sunwell gear yet I was happy with Heroic Dungeon gear.  Too many casual players want shit handed to them, therefore you got the gear treadmill.  While it was there in TBC and Vanilla WOW sometimes it took you 6+ months to replace gear because it took you that long to down the next set of content.  Today people will not stand for "THE GRIND" because MMOs have become Welfare like games.
    Hahahah I totally agree with you here, I can't deny WoW has really brought about the instant gratification crowd. As much as I'd like to be a Advocate of FFXI some of the comments can be a bit cringe worthy, especially since the grind was FAR WORSE than anything we have now. You have to admit that was a different time and the time invested/to what you got had a good balance for the most part. What made FFXI so grindy in the first place was you had a near impossible chance to claim a HNM/NM due to botting and when you did you had >10% droprate on most items OF WHICH you were in a LINE to get. In the past year the game has become very playable and content/time constraints of content that hasn't been done in 7 years has finally lifted, just a shame they waited until the game was about to go into full life support mode. 

    That being said the grind exists within any game, its just about how well you mask that grind to still offer a reward AND give a positive playing experience. While I don't feel the need to say "make it like FFXI" I still feel some pages could be taken and converted in a way that applies to a more broader and casual spectrum. Bringing a hamlet type of event from back in 1.0 where battle classes AND crafting classes can contributed and get rewarded, bridge that gap and offer a immersive experience. This game has such a wide and beautiful world that isn't appreciated by just killing hunt monsters (especially with flying now has even created less draw to the world). Doing something with the beastman strongholds like adding a progressive major event that occurs every few hours that scales based on the amount of attendees.

    We can go on and on about events from FFXI that would transfer very well because of already existing systems and geography currently in FFXIV. All FFXIV needs is time, and I feel come 4.0 this game will be very different from what it is now. Accepting it for what it is is not, you need to keep pushing for more because this game can be more. If we don't then Yoshida is just going to accept it for what it is and feels no changes need to be made to the formula. This game is already out of the danger zone and is a success, and that's something I can admit despite my feelings on the game currently. That being said Yoshi can take some small risks and add some more features to the game and build on it every patch. I can't accept your comment of "just move on" because I have invested the better part of a DECADE of my life playing FFXI and FFXIV since 1.0 to 3.0 and more playing the entire FF series and this game as it currently stands is not a game deserving of the Final fantasy name.

    At first I laughed at the "best MMO in the market" but honestly besides FFXI and maybe WoW (WoW is a non factor to me because it cannot pump out content as fast as FFXIV) is the only thing that really is worth playing now. There are a lot of games with potential on the market, but the big issue is focus is put on ways to milk more money from its players rather than producing content at a relatively good pace at all...That being said I don't want people remembering FFXIV as another token grinder instanced content dungeon simulator, I want them to remember it as a Final Fantasy game. I want story foremost and a sprawling open world to explore with many things to see and enjoy. I will "whine all day and all week and all month and all year" until it happens, and according to the live letter Yoshi knows this needs to happen as well as I do. The foundation has been laid out, its time to expand and make good on the final fantasy name.
  • Darkfalz89Darkfalz89 Member UncommonPosts: 581
    edited August 2015

    JudgeUK said:
    Re WOW:
    One thing which may stun some modern day players was the repeat running of raids - not for yourself, but for other guild members who hadn't got the gear.
    Week in, week out, we would organise raid groups with the same core people - bringing in newer guild members so they could level up their gear.

    People have a go at WOW, but my memories have the general community head and shoulders above some of the more modern day games.
    I assume you aren't talking just past tense and are talking about the game in its current state. Some of us invested time in WoW and some of us played the big three of long ago (EQ1,DAoC,Ultima). Unfortunately for me I was far too invested and engrossed into FFXI when WoW launched so I stuck with that one instead, but really community was great in all these games back then. Community even now in FFXI is a shadow of its former glory and much like in WoW of today its hard, borderline impossible to find guilds like yours. I'm not going to discount WoW's past but being a part of a community in the hayday of the games I mentioned and trying to play modern games leave much to be desired. I'm honestly going to blame duty finder and dungeon finder as a large culprit of this but a larger culprit is the sheer amount of people who play now. I feel that the player per server load is much larger now due to better server structure and technology and this is further increased by DF so really those can just both endlessly play the blame game. 

    The anonymity of the internet was just as prevalent in games back then just as it was now, but its much like attending a convention/expo back when it was just a couple thousand and attending the same convention/expo that is going 100k attendees strong. The exchange between players and experiences were more "personal" I feel and because of that while you were still "Rambokun the dragonslayer" you still represented your name as a player. While requiring a linkshell/guild to do anything in games back then could be considered a chore, its not like it cost you anything to join and people always did their best to return the your kindness when you helped them (unless your guild leader was a tool). I feel that Dungeon/Duty finder really fragments and destroys the immersion we have come to enjoy when playing MMO's, where massive worlds in MMOs of today are really just full of lobbies.While I miss that time of games I cant say I could go back because I don't have 16 hours a day as a adult with responsibilities like anyone else here. 
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    edited August 2015
    Some people might notice it and some might not, but I felt this expansion was pretty lazy overall. One thing is how they explained the space issue. According to them, they could not expand individual space on person due to server stress. Legitimate argument I suppose. However, we couldn't get a free retainer? Guess not since they have to sell those to us. Second thing is the 3 new "jobs" which are literally jobs and not classes. One could argue that the class system was weak anyway, but it is still a system they implemented and did not uphold to. Third thing is no passives from 50-60. To me that's just straight up lazy just giving 5 abilities, which are completely questionable in themselves depending on the job. Sure you could argue that WoW only gave you passives and 1 new skill from 90-100. That would just mean they are being lazy as well. Sure, there is no telling what may come in 3.1~3.55 (to a degree) but they are already starting things off like they did most of 2.0 which was pretty weak. This game does have a lot of potential but it needs to realize it sooner rather than later before people just start not to care.
  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,628
    Also for Foomerang, this quote was directly ripped from the latest FFXIV Live letter in regards to how 4.0 content will be handled:

    Main Scenario Progression to Access 4.0 Content

    Though it’s still a bit early to talk about this, you’ll be able to access and accept quests for Patch 4.0 even if you have not completed the main scenario for the Patch 3.x series. Similarly, you’ll be able to unlock new jobs regardless of your scenario progression. Due to this, we feel the need to create a system that will allow you to watch a digest of what happened. However, for the 3.0 story, since everyone has seen everything up until now I think it was enjoyable, and while there were some pros and cons for this, I think having the system we did for the 3.x series was a good thing.

    Source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/257609-Letter-from-the-Producer-LIVE-Part-XXIV-Update-Thread/page2

    There was a significant outcry about the bs content walling for 3.0 and while Yoshi feels that they made the right choice, moving forward they will refrain from doing this in the future. 
    This is great. Thank you for the info!
  • Darkfalz89Darkfalz89 Member UncommonPosts: 581
    edited September 2015
    Albatroes said:
    Some people might notice it and some might not, but I felt this expansion was pretty lazy overall. One thing is how they explained the space issue. According to them, they could not expand individual space on person due to server stress. Legitimate argument I suppose. However, we couldn't get a free retainer? Guess not since they have to sell those to us. Second thing is the 3 new "jobs" which are literally jobs and not classes. One could argue that the class system was weak anyway, but it is still a system they implemented and did not uphold to. Third thing is no passives from 50-60. To me that's just straight up lazy just giving 5 abilities, which are completely questionable in themselves depending on the job. Sure you could argue that WoW only gave you passives and 1 new skill from 90-100. That would just mean they are being lazy as well. Sure, there is no telling what may come in 3.1~3.55 (to a degree) but they are already starting things off like they did most of 2.0 which was pretty weak. This game does have a lot of potential but it needs to realize it sooner rather than later before people just start not to care.
    Oh I definitely noticed all this come 3.0 and It's just kind of a mess so I haven't really bothered getting into it. Some major adjustments to the armory system have been needed for some time now and I was hoping they would get to it in 3.0. The way the new jobs work/are obtained make little to no sense at all and the dropping of the ball with traits after 48 were a major head scratcher for me. The retainer issue I can absolutely agree with but an extra dollar is pretty tame since isn't it $12.99-13.99 for normal accounts? I'm legacy so I only play $9.99 so granted I needed the space It wouldn't dent my wallet to get some extra retainers, BUT its still a legit concern to have. 

    As far as abilities I really have to agree while 5 new abilities were more than I was hoping for, but are extremely hit or miss depending on which class it is. The fact that while NIN got TWO Emnity reduction moves in a game with an actually dependable and working emnity system unlike *cough* FFXI *cough* BUT NIN got two straight DPS increase buffs. MNK got stuck with a QOL ability, a really pointless ability that is only for out of combat and a decent OCD. What this boils down to is MNK having very little raid utility and just about every class is dangerously closing in on its DPS due to receive no straight buff CDS. MNK being a very high skill cap class because very less sought after and even more less attractive to play since It has went from high risk/reward to high risk/comparable to each other class that take little to no effort reward. 

    I do digress since MNK did get quite a nice buff to their kit in this last patch, but SE is just so fearful to add anything else to MNK for fear of it out classing everyone else. Granted their extremely limited raid utility and overall weight in new raid comps I would almost wish they did let them do more damage to at least give them something. It's truly a shame since I started leveling MNK after SMN and I've been having a blast, but it won't discourage me to keep trucking on (mostly because grinding another job at this point from 50-60 is so mind numbingly dull and boring). I'd just wait and see, but overall It does feel that HW would of just done fine staying at the 50 cap and the extra 10 levels do feel very slapped on in practice, almost just there to add a grind for the sake of the grind almost.
  • Darkfalz89Darkfalz89 Member UncommonPosts: 581
    edited September 2015

    Ridelynn said:
    I think FFXIV boils down to (mostly) 3 camps of people, if I were to stereotype (poorly) most every player.

    The people who focus and/or push through to bleeding edge - They either love it, because it is updated frequently and puts out new challenges on a regular basis and they can just keep up with it, or they hate it because the content comes in small enough chunks that they are able to get through it before the next bit is out, or the combat is stale, there are too many/not enough abilities, it's too much/not enough like WoW, etc. These folks pretty much just focus on their one class or role, min-maxing that class/role in PvE, and that's about it. Nothing wrong with these folks, just they are either going to love it, or hate it, and not much inbetween.

    The RP/vanity folks - these aren't really the same camp but I'm lumping them together because they are really playing FFXIV as a meta - the game is there, but they are playing their own game inside of it. It has a great lore, a good sense of community, there is a pretty flexible emote and vanity system in place. The vanity folks may burn out, because while they are always adding new stuff, there's only so much dress-up you can do before your just in the same gear chase as the PvE folks, but it's fun while it lasts. The RPers tend to love it - heck, you can even log out by going to sleep...

    The horizontal progression folks - these are the alt-o-holics, the people who are too ADD to focus on one class, the dirty casuals, etc. This was the primary audience for this game the first time around (1.0), the reason that the class system is designed the way it is, and what was originally intended for players to do - level pretty much everything all the way across. The game has changed away from that somewhat in ARR, but it still has pretty heavy leanings in this direction. These folks tend to love this game.

    I almost put crafters/gatherers as a seperate camp, but really, they can either fall into 1 or 3 pretty readily, depending on which way they lean. There may be a few in the game just for the story, that is one of the hallmarks of the FF line, but really I don't see those people posting/complaining/talking about the game often, and by the time you've got to the end of the story, with the forced dungeons and trials along the way, most of them have pretty well fallen into one of the other camps by then.


    Not really seeing where this fits in the original purpose of this thread but regardless you have it pretty close on the dot other than the horizontal progression part. While you are on point with most of it I feel that I'm not sure about how many of those people can really love this game, UNLESS you are talking strictly playing multiple classes and not gearing them seriously. One of the main issues with FFXIV is that its very anti-alt if you want to gear other classes seriously you kinda get screwed with the harsh weekly content walls BUT on the flip side its what holds players playing current content. 

    Then again one of the only reasons to play as a non raider/dungeon runner is the weekly Token cap but even then after each major patch you can catch up with someone playing for 6 months in about a week or two due to restrictions finally being lifted. This could even apply to raiding if doing the previous major patch raid was actually relevant so it wasn't so difficult to find others to raid with, but the gold old vertical progression route is to blame for that. That being said SE really does bank on those that enjoy playing more than one class :S. So you may be entirely right since I could of totally misinterpreted your post.
  • lobotarulobotaru Member UncommonPosts: 165
    On the subject of the expansion, I think it kind of shows that SE is mismanaging the project. It really needs a full development crew for at least two more years to make up for the rushed development cycle of the initial release. The devs have made claims about database issues that only make sense if they are too understaffed to assign developers to the task. SE probably only has a skeleton crew assigned to continuing development on the game, which is suicidal in the long term because the small team will not be able to address player concerns or the deeper flaws of the game.
  • Darkfalz89Darkfalz89 Member UncommonPosts: 581
    lobotaru said:
    On the subject of the expansion, I think it kind of shows that SE is mismanaging the project. It really needs a full development crew for at least two more years to make up for the rushed development cycle of the initial release. The devs have made claims about database issues that only make sense if they are too understaffed to assign developers to the task. SE probably only has a skeleton crew assigned to continuing development on the game, which is suicidal in the long term because the small team will not be able to address player concerns or the deeper flaws of the game.
    I have tried to sweep that fact under the rug from way back when they initially mentioned how small their team was. This just goes to show you how even with as little as they have can push content faster as a dev team of 100 strong than a design team of bliizzard of several hundred. From the many things we touched base on a few posts above I forgot to mention how rushed the new race was too, a lot of recycled animations and very limited customization options. With the recent launch of the Korean client and the future other major language launches I hope SE can push enough funds to bolster the dev team. They don't even have a PvP team and it shows, its actually part of what the battle team does... I still wish them the best of luck, but more than anything this game just needs more time... I hope.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    The reason it does not feel like the game we deserved is because it is not.
    There was no bigger fan of the game than me,i would surf the internet many years before most knew it was being made.

    I followed the year by year making of this game VERY closely.There were indicators outside of this game because it was all about the new game engine and then the next version of a new game engine.

    They struggled badly to get the new game engine and game to where it needed to be,it was costing them a LOT of money and time and time is yet more money.

    I could easily see that they were going to rush this game out and utilize an easier more streamline version of the game to speed it up.I saw it in all of the systems and class design, i knew this was not going to please me and to the hardcore FFXI players would not please a lot of them either.

    The result was hit n miss,it looked good perhaps better than i thought but the rest of the game design was just bad ,below par as an avid FFXI player.I could break down in detail step by step how they just cut corners but i can't be bothered anymore,the game severely dampened my dreams of a great game and of Square Enix.Then when they tossed Tanaka under the bus even though it was their heirarchy that made the decisions i just had enough of Square and no longer trust them.

    I love the FF franchise i feel it deserves it's place in gaming history but this business has taken a deep down swing,it now operates like Blizzard and i don't like that.I think it is just time taking it's toll,most of the old school guys are gone or retired,their new younger brass are WOWesque type gamer's and want that type of games.It is really sad ,i used to look at Square products with anticipation buying them all up,now i rarely care to even pay attention to them anymore.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    Wizardry said:
    The reason it does not feel like the game we deserved is because it is not.
    There was no bigger fan of the game than me,i would surf the internet many years before most knew it was being made.

    I followed the year by year making of this game VERY closely.There were indicators outside of this game because it was all about the new game engine and then the next version of a new game engine.

    They struggled badly to get the new game engine and game to where it needed to be,it was costing them a LOT of money and time and time is yet more money.

    I could easily see that they were going to rush this game out and utilize an easier more streamline version of the game to speed it up.I saw it in all of the systems and class design, i knew this was not going to please me and to the hardcore FFXI players would not please a lot of them either.

    The result was hit n miss,it looked good perhaps better than i thought but the rest of the game design was just bad ,below par as an avid FFXI player.I could break down in detail step by step how they just cut corners but i can't be bothered anymore,the game severely dampened my dreams of a great game and of Square Enix.Then when they tossed Tanaka under the bus even though it was their heirarchy that made the decisions i just had enough of Square and no longer trust them.

    I love the FF franchise i feel it deserves it's place in gaming history but this business has taken a deep down swing,it now operates like Blizzard and i don't like that.I think it is just time taking it's toll,most of the old school guys are gone or retired,their new younger brass are WOWesque type gamer's and want that type of games.It is really sad ,i used to look at Square products with anticipation buying them all up,now i rarely care to even pay attention to them anymore.
    I dont think you people get it.  FFXI will NEVER work again in the market.  WHY?  Simple the market that was able sustain FFXI is completely different and SE knows this.  Trying to make FFXI 2.0 in FFXIV fail with 1.0/1.2.  IT FAILED.  I am sorry but YES FFXI was a GOOD game back in its time however people change and the markets change and FFXIV for its own good had to change some what too.  YES combat had to be more like WOW just to survive.  Now there are a lot of things FFXIV moved away from with WOW in the sense that its not a Raid or die game.  They have more things to do if you pace yourself and dont care you will never have raid gear.  It does not matter that you come to this forums time after time and cry your head off, it will not change what WOW did to the market.  I know I HATE LFD/LFR but do you as many times as I complained about these 2 systems did 1 game ever take them completely out after they were in?  NO.  Why?  BECAUSE to survive in todays market unless you make a very cheap game you need to have a few hundred thousand to more than a million subs and a cash shop.  So it does not matter how many times we bitch and complain about things.  
  • XatshXatsh Member RarePosts: 451
    edited September 2015
    FFXIV 1.0 did not fail because it was a XI style game.

    There were people on the forums who were furious in 1.0 that the game was not more like XI just like it is now. 1.0 was just a steaming pile of crap, the game was released in a pre-alpha stage.

    1.25 + could and probably would of worked if the game world was designed better, the graphics engine was the one we had now, and there was 30xs the content to do in the game.

    XI did alot of things better then anyone else did. Namely the life span of their endgame.

    The issue with XIV currently is it didn't borrow from WoW it blatently copied it and even dumbed things down that was already dumbed down to make it "Not confusing for new players".

    Atm XIV can only support players who want to play 10ish hours a week. XI could of kept the 70hr a week players happy. There is no happy middle grounds with SE.
  • GhavriggGhavrigg Member RarePosts: 1,308
    Yeah, FFXIV endgame is a bit dull atm. I'm just killing time leveling alt jobs and screwing around until 3.1 hits. I am hoping these airship exploration island things will end up bringing something new to the table. They said they're going for an "old-school MMO" feel... wonder what that really means in the end.
  • Solar_ProphetSolar_Prophet Member EpicPosts: 1,959
    I've been working on leveling up my machinist class in between playing other games. I'm not in a hurry to hit the end game grind, so I'll probably work on my gathering classes as well. 

    IMO this is the first game to feel like Final Fantasy since IX, though I didn't play XII. Love the setting, love the lore, love the story so far. Can't wait to see where it goes. 

    AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!

    We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD. 

    #IStandWithVic

  • Darkfalz89Darkfalz89 Member UncommonPosts: 581
    I've been working on leveling up my machinist class in between playing other games. I'm not in a hurry to hit the end game grind, so I'll probably work on my gathering classes as well. 

    IMO this is the first game to feel like Final Fantasy since IX, though I didn't play XII. Love the setting, love the lore, love the story so far. Can't wait to see where it goes. 
    Now that you mention other FF games It makes me realize how awesome it would be to have a FF MMO set in the tactics world of Ivalice. Imagine being able to play as bangaas, viara and moogle's that don't like creepy as f*ck. 
  • Darkfalz89Darkfalz89 Member UncommonPosts: 581
    lobotaru said:
    I have tried to sweep that fact under the rug from way back when they initially mentioned how small their team was. This just goes to show you how even with as little as they have can push content faster as a dev team of 100 strong than a design team of bliizzard of several hundred. From the many things we touched base on a few posts above I forgot to mention how rushed the new race was too, a lot of recycled animations and very limited customization options. With the recent launch of the Korean client and the future other major language launches I hope SE can push enough funds to bolster the dev team. They don't even have a PvP team and it shows, its actually part of what the battle team does... I still wish them the best of luck, but more than anything this game just needs more time... I hope.
    Unless things have changed they have 300 in house for their team.
    http://www.rpgsite.net/interview/3085-final-fantasy-xiv-a-realm-reborn-developer-interview
    Yoshida: Currently, the in-house team consists of almost 300 members. We also have outsourced a fair amount of work to third-party companies, so all-in-all, the team is fairly large.
    Things may have changed by now this is an old article after all.
    I for some reason seem to recall a lot less on the team than that, I suppose I can take back the honorable mentions so we should be getting more instead!!!! xD
  • Darkfalz89Darkfalz89 Member UncommonPosts: 581
    Xatsh said:
    FFXIV 1.0 did not fail because it was a XI style game.

    There were people on the forums who were furious in 1.0 that the game was not more like XI just like it is now. 1.0 was just a steaming pile of crap, the game was released in a pre-alpha stage.

    1.25 + could and probably would of worked if the game world was designed better, the graphics engine was the one we had now, and there was 30xs the content to do in the game.

    XI did alot of things better then anyone else did. Namely the life span of their endgame.

    The issue with XIV currently is it didn't borrow from WoW it blatently copied it and even dumbed things down that was already dumbed down to make it "Not confusing for new players".

    Atm XIV can only support players who want to play 10ish hours a week. XI could of kept the 70hr a week players happy. There is no happy middle grounds with SE.
    In the past year FFXI could still hold you playing that long a week, I feel the game is in the best shape its been in many many years. I'd be really hard pressed to find anything particularly wrong about the game in the state its currently in.
  • Darkfalz89Darkfalz89 Member UncommonPosts: 581

    Xatsh said: 
    It also had a lot more grind to it and a lot balance issues not to mention 24 and 48 hour spawns with 5% drop rates and most thing were tank and spank. However XIV is lacking in customization and I am hoping in the future they will do as they said they may and add stats that enhance skills and such. I wouldn't mind an open world dungeon or two as well. One cool thing Yoshi mentioned was the idea of a 100 floor dungeon challenge which I can't find proof of right now but will post when I do. Also I know plenty of people who play more than 10 hours a week. It all depends on how you play and what you play for
    Believe it or not there are still some players that want to go back to those days, even to the point there is a thriving level 75 cap vanilla private server. I can confirm there was mention a few interviews ago for a 100 floor dungeon, but yoshi has also mentioned cross server grouping, hybrid classes, e.t.c. but I am still patiently waiting. There are plenty of people that can play 10 more hours a week if they don't mind playing a MMO the way you play an MMO. There is plenty of fluff if that's your thing, just don't expect to gear more than one class at a time unless you plan on grinding DF Tokens for months on end. There really should be more mid-high range battle content besides raiding. 
  • Darkfalz89Darkfalz89 Member UncommonPosts: 581
    edited September 2015
    danwest58 said:
    Wizardry said:
    I dont think you people get it.  FFXI will NEVER work again in the market.  WHY?  Simple the market that was able sustain FFXI is completely different and SE knows this.  Trying to make FFXI 2.0 in FFXIV fail with 1.0/1.2.  IT FAILED.  I am sorry but YES FFXI was a GOOD game back in its time however people change and the markets change and FFXIV for its own good had to change some what too.  YES combat had to be more like WOW just to survive.  Now there are a lot of things FFXIV moved away from with WOW in the sense that its not a Raid or die game.  They have more things to do if you pace yourself and dont care you will never have raid gear.  It does not matter that you come to this forums time after time and cry your head off, it will not change what WOW did to the market.  I know I HATE LFD/LFR but do you as many times as I complained about these 2 systems did 1 game ever take them completely out after they were in?  NO.  Why?  BECAUSE to survive in todays market unless you make a very cheap game you need to have a few hundred thousand to more than a million subs and a cash shop.  So it does not matter how many times we bitch and complain about things.  
    You make it really hard to believe that you were actually there to witness the downfall of 1.0 and the reasons that led up to its failure. This game is actually very limited in ways you can advance your character if you don't participate in raid content. If we are playing an RPG the way a RPG is played then this game really is a Raid or die game due to the limited scope of worthwhile battle content. According to your words; if I try and wish really really hard I can trick myself into believing that playing Triple triad and watering my digital garden will some day make me stronger in a RPG. To think i have been playing this game the wrong way all this time.

    This game excels leaps and bounds over WoW because it brings content out in much more acceptable intervals, its not moving away from anything when comparing it to WoW because its still very much the same exact formula through and through. No matter how hard you try to justify fluff as content; until it provides a means to make your character advance horizontally or vertically it is not. Even in old school RPGS and FF games of old doing extra activities still gave you something to help you on your journey. Playing Triple Triad in FF8 still gave you consumables to help your battles easier or even provided game breaking items. And if its existence comes at the cost of more dev time coming into more battle content then even more of a reason to deny it as content.

    The moment that any of these activities reward even the smallest amount of tokens or the simplest stat advantage then they are deemed content. Hell I would play TT all day until I capped ESO because its not DF and dungeons and it would motivate me to collect cards and work out a strategy and create my own meta to bring hours of more entertainment. The problem that still remains is that content wall is imminent no matter how hard you try to best it, the moment i'd cap ESO for the week in TT then its content drought remains all the same. Honestly if they implemented a cap for items/tokens and made it individual based on CLASS then I could take it all back.
    Post edited by Darkfalz89 on
  • Pratt2112Pratt2112 Member UncommonPosts: 1,636

    You make it really hard to believe that you were actually there to witness the downfall of 1.0 and the reasons that led up to its failure. This game is actually very limited in ways you can advance your character if you don't participate in raid content. If we are playing an RPG the way a RPG is played then this game really is a Raid or die game due to the limited scope of worthwhile battle content. According to your words; if I try and wish really really hard I can trick myself into believing that playing Triple triad and watering my digital garden will some day make me stronger in a RPG. To think i have been playing this game the wrong way all this time.

    This game excels leaps and bounds over WoW because it brings content out in much more acceptable intervals, its not moving away from anything when comparing it to WoW because its still very much the same exact formula through and through. No matter how hard you try to justify fluff as content; until it provides a means to make your character advance horizontally or vertically it is not. Even in old school RPGS and FF games of old doing extra activities still gave you something to help you on your journey. Playing Triple Triad in FF8 still gave you consumables to help your battles easier or even provided game breaking items. And if its existence comes at the cost of more dev time coming into more battle content then even more of a reason to deny it as content.

    The moment that any of these activities reward even the smallest amount of tokens or the simplest stat advantage then they are deemed content. Hell I would play TT all day until I capped ESO because its not DF and dungeons and it would motivate me to collect cards and work out a strategy and create my own meta to bring hours of more entertainment. The problem that still remains is that content wall is imminent no matter how hard you try to best it, the moment i'd cap ESO for the week in TT then its content drought remains all the same. Honestly if they implemented a cap for items/tokens and made it individual based on CLASS then I could take it all back.
    That's silly.

    You're confusing "real content" with "content that interests or holds value to you".

    Content in a game - any game - encompasses everything the game offers its players. Everything.

    Be it quests, raids, instanced dungeons, Triple Triad, Chocobo Racing, the 'Cuff-A-Curr' machine, the mini-games in your Inn Room, etc. etc... it's all content. It's all activities created with the intend for people who find those particular activities fun and rewarding in their own way to use and enjoy.

    Because you don't find personal value or interest in it does not disqualify it as being content.

    You're attempting to impose your own personal preferences and strict qualifications on something that is not beholden to or defined by either.

    For example... You dismiss Triple Triad as being "real content", but that's only because you don't find it worthwhile, given the personal goals you have for yourself, and the activities you have deemed important to reach those goals.

    Will doing Triple Triad help you get geared up in the best gear in the game for raiding or whatever? No. But it'll help you improve at playing, obtain better cards and eventually compete among the best TT players - NPC and otherwise. That might not sound interesting or "worthwhile" to you, and that's fine. However, it's very much just as important to those who do find it worthwhile and fun, as what you find worthwhile and fun is to you.


  • Darkfalz89Darkfalz89 Member UncommonPosts: 581
    edited September 2015
    Pratt2112 said:
    That's silly.

    You're confusing "real content" with "content that interests or holds value to you".

    Content in a game - any game - encompasses everything the game offers its players. Everything.

    Be it quests, raids, instanced dungeons, Triple Triad, Chocobo Racing, the 'Cuff-A-Curr' machine, the mini-games in your Inn Room, etc. etc... it's all content. It's all activities created with the intend for people who find those particular activities fun and rewarding in their own way to use and enjoy.

    Because you don't find personal value or interest in it does not disqualify it as being content.

    You're attempting to impose your own personal preferences and strict qualifications on something that is not beholden to or defined by either.

    For example... You dismiss Triple Triad as being "real content", but that's only because you don't find it worthwhile, given the personal goals you have for yourself, and the activities you have deemed important to reach those goals.

    Will doing Triple Triad help you get geared up in the best gear in the game for raiding or whatever? No. But it'll help you improve at playing, obtain better cards and eventually compete among the best TT players - NPC and otherwise. That might not sound interesting or "worthwhile" to you, and that's fine. However, it's very much just as important to those who do find it worthwhile and fun, as what you find worthwhile and fun is to you.


    You know at first I kinda wanted to blatantly argue with you because reasons, but you may very well be right or in the end its all subjective because as you said: we all play games for different reasons. Coming from a diverse and extensive MMORPG AND RPG background I always found myself wanting to climb that gear treadmill and get that next piece of armor, all the while helping my friends on their own personal gear goals in the online RPG's.  This is the main reason we play RPG's and its the biggest single selling point of an RPG. That being said I always felt that doing things like triple triad in FF8 was fun of its own merit and while it wasn't part of the main story/purpose of the game it rewarded something to me to get an edge on the actual meat of the game and I felt this worked. 

    Ill be honest in saying that I totally worded my post above wrong because in fact fluff is "content" because anything added to the game is considered "content". What I'm trying to say is that in a RPG there is not enough RPG content, this doesn't always have to be "battle content" but can be a series of other things that can still offer progression in a different means. What I mean that not ALL people play a RPG to engage in RPG elements that make up the original purpose of the game, it seems a growing amount of people these days rather play a game within a game. It may be that I severely underestimate the amount of people that play MMORPGS for purposes that aren't the primary focus of MMORPGS like playing dress up and doing activities that have no significant draw to the character progression of the game. 

    I really would love to justify playing a minigame within a game and call it worthwhile, but when your game uses tag lines like "FORGE YOUR ADVENTURE" or "GO ON AN ADVENTURE" when a small fraction of the game is actually that........ I mean if you could imagine a honest 10 minute trailer of this game it would be 8 minutes of people crafting/choco racing/playing triple triad/furnishing their home e.t.c. and the last 2 minutes were actual battle content. Of course FFXIV doesn't portray it this way because just about any gameplay trailer they release is dungeon/battle content for the major duration of the video. I don't deny that people come to FFXIV to not play an MMORPG because they are more concerned about when we get the "Vanu Vanu" dance before they want to discuss concerns over the future of the game.

    What really does irk me is that while Final Fantasy didn't create the original idea of RPG, its created a somewhat consistently "decent" story and a fun role playing experience. Knowing that and seeing FFXIV, a final fantasy title that was my last bastion of somewhat decent role playing experiences/decent MMO's current flagship game is hailed as king of minigames and dressup just really has me in a state of horror.
  • Pratt2112Pratt2112 Member UncommonPosts: 1,636
    edited September 2015
     Coming from a diverse and extensive MMORPG AND RPG background I always found myself wanting to climb that gear treadmill and get that next piece of armor, all the while helping my friends on their own personal gear goals in the online RPG's.  This is the main reason we play RPG's and its the biggest single selling point of an RPG. That being said I always felt that doing things like triple triad in FF8 was fun of its own merit and while it wasn't part of the main story/purpose of the game it rewarded something to me to get an edge on the actual meat of the game and I felt this worked.

    ----------
    Eh... You're still imposing your own personal values/preferences on others/the genre, especially using terms like "we" when you describe them. RPGs bring many things to the table for people, and people seek a variety of things in them. Some mostly want a deep, engrossing world to dive into. Some are all about the story. Some will spend countless hours on the side activities/mini-games. Some enjoy the gear treadmill. Some enjoy a mix of all of that. Etc. etc.

    You can say what the single biggest selling point is for you and, surely others share that preference. But that's where it stops. You don't speak for everyone, nor for the genre as a whole.

    For example... In my case, the gear treadmill is definitely not the biggest selling point. It's barely even an interest. In XIV alone, I haven't chased gear since Ironworks... and even then I didn't really push for it; I just did stuff and when I happened to have enough tomestones to buy a new piece, I would.
    --------

    Ill be honest in saying that I totally worded my post above wrong because in fact fluff is "content" because anything added to the game is considered "content". What I'm trying to say is that in a RPG there is not enough RPG content, this doesn't always have to be "battle content" but can be a series of other things that can still offer progression in a different means. What I mean that not ALL people play a RPG to engage in RPG elements that make up the original purpose of the game, it seems a growing amount of people these days rather play a game within a game. It may be that I severely underestimate the amount of people that play MMORPGS for purposes that aren't the primary focus of MMORPGS like playing dress up and doing activities that have no significant draw to the character progression of the game.

    -----------------
    Again, you're projecting your own preferences on others and on the genre, attempting to declare "what the primary focus of MMORPGs", just so you can still sorta "set aside" those who don't play them for that reason. You're still trying to create this dichotomy of players, between those who are "playing them the right way" and those who "aren't", though you're doing so in a kind of round-about way.

    You seem to be stuck on this idea of "What MMORPGs really are" and "How they're really supposed to be played". That's your core mistake, and it's what all of your statements seem to stem from.
    ------------------

    I really would love to justify playing a minigame within a game and call it worthwhile, but when your game uses tag lines like "FORGE YOUR ADVENTURE" or "GO ON AN ADVENTURE" when a small fraction of the game is actually that........ I mean if you could imagine a honest 10 minute trailer of this game it would be 8 minutes of people crafting/choco racing/playing triple triad/furnishing their home e.t.c. and the last 2 minutes were actual battle content. Of course FFXIV doesn't portray it this way because just about any gameplay trailer they release is dungeon/battle content for the major duration of the video. I don't deny that people come to FFXIV to not play an MMORPG because they are more concerned about when we get the "Vanu Vanu" dance before they want to discuss concerns over the future of the game.

    ---------------
    You're doing it again.

    You're overstating one aspect of  the game, while understating another - in a rather inaccurate fashion. It's another way in which you're attempting to push your personal view of "what MMORPGs are supposed to be" on others.

    However, MMORPGs are all those things - or, they can and, arguably should be all those things. FFXIV, in particular, certainly is.


    It's more of a world than just a game (something that's very rare in the genre these days). It is a world filled with struggle, stories - small and epic, side activities, day-to-day things that must be done, games, etc. It's all these things. Just like the real world... there are major struggles and epic things happening all the time around the world. Yet, in the midst of all that, people still play games, they still do their day-to-day routines, gamble, etc.

    There's tons of adventure to be had in XIV, in myriad ways. It isn't only in the form of "what the game tells you to do".  Nor is it only in the form of specifically what interests you personally.

    You keep trying to create this dichotomy of people "doing the epic awesome stuff, and climing the gear treadmill - which is what MMORPGs are all about", and people "doing all that other stuff that's neat, but isn't meaningful". And again, that is where you're wrong. Your view of the genre, and its players, is awfully myopic and close-minded.
    ---------------

    What really does irk me is that while Final Fantasy didn't create the original idea of RPG, its created a somewhat consistently "decent" story and a fun role playing experience. Knowing that and seeing FFXIV, a final fantasy title that was my last bastion of somewhat decent role playing experiences/decent MMO's current flagship game is hailed as king of minigames and dressup just really has me in a state of horror.

    --------------
    A state of horror?

    Errr... yeah.

    Well... hyperbole aside...

    It's unfortunate you can't find the adventure in FFXIV. I'm finding plenty of it, in my own way, on my own terms. It's a vast world, with lots to do - for those who take the time to actually do it, and don't stand on the sidelines, dismissively scoffing at anything that isn't "the gear  progression treadmill".
  • lobotarulobotaru Member UncommonPosts: 165
    edited September 2015
    Hybrid classes aren't going to happen. WoW had hybrids back in vanilla, and they didn't work with a tank/healer/DD role trinity. For hybrids to work they'd need to completely redo how roles and combat are done in FFXIV:ARR. Hybrids provide flexibility of options at the cost of party strength. They're only good when combat presents a multitude of options that can lead to victory, like in Divinity: Original Sin. 

    As for anyone arguing that using the WoW formula is helping FFXIV:ARR, I'd like to point to the fact WoW has been in decline despite a total redesign. It is what FFXIV:ARR did differently or promised to do differently that kept players paying. The old guard community it garnered from FFXI, even if only temporarily, also helped by making it a more pleasant social environment. 
  • shalissarshalissar Member UncommonPosts: 509
    It's a pleasant social environment until you DF an ex primal ;)
  • arobiarobi Member UncommonPosts: 124
    Colt47 said:

     hoping that if it apes the Action MMORPG style popularized by WoW that it will keep itself afloat for a while.  

    WoW is not an action mmorpg. IMO action mmos didn't really become prominent until about 5 years or so ago give or take. MMOs like DCUO and GW2 come to mind. Tera and Neverwinter are also good examples.  
  • SwankdSwankd Member UncommonPosts: 241
    Recore said:
    Its the last of the WoW clones so if you don't like that style of game just move on.
    So every MMO after WoW is a WoW clone? I didn't know WoW was the first MMO! Please explain, what is your definition of a WoW clone?

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