This whole argument feels like a childish stubborn attempt to not see things from another point of view. Your comparison is flawed, but you continue to insist that there's something to it. In another game, you might have a Warrior that could be a Tank sometimes and a DPS at other times. In this game, you could just play a Warrior when you want to be a Tank, and, let's say, Lancer when you want to be DPS. If you don't like Mitigation Tanking but prefer Absorption Tanking, then switch to the Paladin, or Dark Knight.
Yes, you have to level these classes separately, and have to gear separately (in some cases), but that's not really different from having to carry Tank gear and DPS gear, but instead of having limited flexibility, i.e. Warrior can only Tank or DPS, can't really heal, you have every variation possible available to one character. A bit of work perhaps to work each of your favored roles to max level, but along the way you'll actually learn the nuances of each role, and be much better prepared to handle each varied play style. What you lose in the "instant change convenience" you gain in flexibility; If you decided that you didn't like Tanking anymore and wanted to play a healer instead, you'd be levelling a different character anyway, but nobody would know your name.
You can always level every class in WoW to max level as well. Then you'd have access to like 31 specs. The difference is, when you level one class in WoW, you often have multiple role options to choose from. If you pick a Paladin or Monk, you also have access to all 3 roles and in the case of a Druid, you have access to all 3 roles including a ranged and melee DPS. There really is a difference between the two games and when it comes to roles available per minute leveled, WoW is far more flexible.
On top of that, the character customization in WoW is far deeper as well. The talent system, gem system, enchanting system and the glyph system all offer far more customization for your character than FFXIV. It was one of my main issues before I stopped playing FFXIV. I chose White Mage and was forever just a White mage and got better gear every once in a while. Materia was extremely simple and basically just increased stats slightly. What a let down compared to the materia system in FFVII. People used to call WoW's character customization dumbed down, but when compared to FFXIV's customization, it looks brilliant.
I also think that the gameplay itself is much more slick in WoW. 1.5 second global cooldowns, far more interesting skills to choose from and controls that respond essentially better than any other MMORPG that I've played lead to a much more engaging experience in my opinion. Even given WoW's imperfect PvP, it is 300 million light years better than FFXIV's PvP. They should have never added PvP to FFXIV in the first place.
I also didn't like the story at all. I felt like it was intended for 10 year olds. People rave about this all the time, but I found it to be adolescent at best. The lack of voiceovers and the below average voiceovers that were there really left an impression on me. It seemed so much less professional than I had expected from them.
So yeah, I can see why someone might be disappointed with it. I know that as a Final Fantasy fan I was very disappointed. It was too bad that the whole time I was playing I felt like it was WoW, but worse. It was worse in many ways in my opinion, but it was really the gameplay that got me in the end. Oh, the agony of a 2.5 second global with a few instants - the simplicity of healing with a White Mage. In the end, it just plain bored me to death.
Colt are you running the game with a group of friends or are you solo in the game? Yes FFXIV is more like WOW however what game out there is not like WOW or gone the direction of Solo story MMO vs a group MMO?
even if it is just 1 role you have 3 ways of doing it so lets say one is all about control another is all about area of effect and another is about single target damage that makes it more like you have sub roles in that one role. & other classes can be tank/healer/dps
But it's still the same role which, per your own original argument, is your issue with it.
Again, you've shifted your argument from being about one thing, to being about something else.
Using Mage as an example again... Whether you're Arcane, Fire or Ice, you are still DPS. You are still filling the same role in a group. It's still One Class, One Role.
Is your issue that it's "one class, one role", as you originally stated?
Or is it in "not having more ways to play that one role"?
It can't be both, and I'm just looking for some resolution to these two conflicting views you've put forth. Some consistency.
If it's the former, then using WoW as an example really makes no sense, as it's One Class, One Role by definition.
If it's the latter, then XIV's Class system is even more flexibile than WoW's. You can take any given class, use your core abilities, and then mix it up with a variety of other skills learned from other Classes. You don't even need to choose a "tree".
even if it is just 1 role you have 3 ways of doing it so lets say one is all about control another is all about area of effect and another is about single target damage that makes it more like you have sub roles in that one role. & other classes can be tank/healer/dps
But it's still the same role which, per your own original argument, is your issue with it.
Again, you've shifted your argument from being about one thing, to being about something else.
Using Mage as an example again... Whether you're Arcane, Fire or Ice, you are still DPS. You are still filling the same role in a group. It's still One Class, One Role.
Is your issue that it's "one class, one role", as you originally stated?
Or is it in "not having more ways to play that one role"?
It can't be both, and I'm just looking for some resolution to these two conflicting views you've put forth. Some consistency.
If it's the former, then using WoW as an example really makes no sense, as it's One Class, One Role by definition.
If it's the latter, then XIV's Class system is even more flexibile than WoW's. You can take any given class, use your core abilities, and then mix it up with a variety of other skills learned from other Classes. You don't even need to choose a "tree".
You can make it your own.
You can't mix your jobs though. If you want to be competitive at endgame, you have to use jobs and not mix classes. Mixing classes is a leveling thing that you have to put up with for the most part. But yeah, up until you actually have to complete something challenging, you can mix and match skills between classes which is nice.
And both of his points are not mutually exclusive. In WoW, if you are playing a pure DPS, you have more than one way to play that role. If you are playing a class with multiple roles, you have access to multiple roles. You can carry and argue both points at the same time.
If you keep picking only the classes like mage/rogue/lock to support your arguement, yes it is one class one role, as soon as you bring in paladin, druid, shaman, Death Knight, warrior, or monk, its no longer one class, one role, you have access to two or sometimes all three roles. Without having to change your class. For instance in wow if i want to be a plate wearing damage dealer, ive got options for that, if i want to be a plate wearing damage dealer in FFXIV i well, i just don't get to do that, because they limit each class/job to one role only.
For the "pure" classes, yes it is one class one role. Rogue, Mage, Necro and Hunter make up the "pure" classes. Every other class is a hybrid and can perform multiple roles depending on spec. Paladins, Monks and Druids can perform all roles depending on spec. Everyone else can either tank+dps or heal+dps. The one class, one role thing doesn't apply for the majority of the classes available in WoW. Just wanted to clear that up a bit.
The one class, one role thing was a problem I had in FFXIV ARR as well. Especially when I was playing, the tank I liked to play was a Warrior, but they were heavily outshined by the Paladin. I also enjoyed the playstyle of the Warrior and would've liked a DPS role for the warrior in order to play the class I enjoyed the most. Not having multiple outlets of role types for a single class can be detrimental for a game.
So you, and others, are basically saying "the class isn't designed to play the way I would want to play it".
The same could be said for every class in WoW. Or in any other MMO for that matter.
I don't care what MMO you pick, I can look at a class and say, "yeah, it can do this and this... but it can't do that and that.. and that's what really bothers me. It's "detrimental" for the game".
Of course, it's not really detrimental. I was just using your term, in quotes, which is, frankly, ridiculous. FFXIV is doing quite well with its setup, because there are plenty of people who do enjoy that setup.
Also, as I stated before, you can switch to a base class, and have access to 32 skills drawn from other classes. So you can be a Lancer who can also cast Protect and Heal their party members - even raise someone if they die. You have an ability to boost others' TP so they can continue using CD abilities. You're basically a DPS who can also fill back-up heal and support roles. And so on, and so on. There's a number of different builds you can setup through that system, all catering to a different playstyle.
So, in XIV, you have the ability to play it "pure", as a Job (e.g. Dragoon rather than Lancer), or create a highly customized Class build by utilizing cross-class abilities from other classes.
And then, of course, you can switch to and actually play any other class/job, which truly gives you the option to play any style available in the game.
Oh, and there are also 'stances' which change up how some jobs/classes actually play as well.
All of this is objectively true and factual. This isn't "opinion". And how someone "feels" about it, or however they try to dismiss or disqualify it, because it's inconvenient to their preferred narrative, doesn't change it.
Frankly, it seems to me that, perhaps excluding purely skill-based games, XIV gives you the most flexibility and choice in how you play of most titles out there - certainly most themepark MMOs. You literally have access to every class, job, skill and playstyle in the game, on a single character, and are free to switch between and train them all. Also, the benefits of this setup go beyond just the class/job system, as progress is tied to the character, not just a single class. In other words, if you've maxed out on one class, you don't have to create an alt and start completely over from scratch on everything to level another one.
My opinion, of course, but I think it's a pretty well-supported one.
You can't mix your jobs though. If you want to be competitive at endgame, you have to use jobs and not mix classes. Mixing classes is a leveling thing that you have to put up with for the most part. But yeah, up until you actually have to complete something challenging, you can mix and match skills between classes which is nice.
Jobs are not intended to be mixed. Classes are. I already explained that.
You're being disingenuous here. Jobs are, by design, intended to be very role specific.
And by the by, people do run content with groups comprised of Classes, even higher end content. Is it "typical"? No, because most people just go with the flow and follow the trend(s). However, it is quite do-able to put together a group of people, with well-selected cross-class abilities, and have some fun with them.
And both of his points are not mutually exclusive. In WoW, if you are playing a pure DPS, you have more than one way to play that role. If you are playing a class with multiple roles, you have access to multiple roles. You can carry and argue both points at the same time.
Okay, people seem to be missing the contradiction here- probably deliberately. So I'll explain once again.
They are mutually exclusive - unless we're now going to start ignoring what was actually said?
Their original complaint was that they don't like "one class, one role".
A "Role" would be: DPS, Healer, Tank, etc. That's your role in a group.
So, for them to turn around and state that WoW did it well, is to completely contradict their own complaint, because WoW's setup is - by design - One Class, One Role.
It doesn't matter if you're Arcane, Fire or Ice... as a mage your ROLE in a group is still DPS.
It doesn't matter what tree you go down in Hunter, your ROLE in a group is still DPS.
So, yes, what they said was, in fact contradictory, because the two situations are mutually exclusive.
I know people are going to spin, twist, distort and ignore themselves in circles because their narrative requires them to. It doesn't change anything. Ignoring the facts doesn't change them.
If people are going to bring wow into this and argue that FFXIV has a more flexible system for characters, I'd disagree. They both are fairly non-restrictive, it's just they do it in different ways. World of Warcraft locks you to a role, but lets you choose how you want to play that role and allows the player to change the way they play that role at any time. FFXIV lets you play multiple roles, but they use a class system that makes it so if you want to play a role in a different way, you need to level another class / job.
Seeing both in action, unless Yoshida changes something World of Warcraft still feels like it offers a better experience. You'll have to level up something new either way whether we go with multiple classes on one character or not, and WoW lets the player choose how they play that role on that character.
I know people are going to spin, twist, distort and ignore themselves in circles because their narrative requires them to. It doesn't change anything. Ignoring the facts doesn't change them.
this would be what you are doing right now. you are taking things way to literal and apparently way too personal aswell.
Everybody knows that if you want to be competitive on end-game raiding (Savage mode) you need to be able to play at least 2-3 classes and switch easily.
I wouldn't take a BLM that cant play SMN if we need him to. Same applies to The tanks and healers. Different battles require different setups.
Thankfully you can level all classes with one char and eventually will be able to gear up 2-3 of them.
The multispec argument is mute. Asking for more specs when you can have all classes in one char doesn't make sense, especially if you consider that they are adding classes fairly often (4 new classes post launch).
The only reason you would want something like that is if you are extremely LAZY and if that's the case I don't give a damn about your opinion. Go play a game that offers free max level chars instead.
Oh wow I can put a basic dot attack or a slight damage booster or a basic heal on my monk. Mind blowing. I've hated this defense of FFXIV's cross class skills because it's not the gameplay changer people make it out to be. That's it. In wow, feral druids played vastly different from a moonkin or a resto druid. Moonkin and feral druid are the same dps role, but obviously they're very different playstyles. The difference is not as great between mage flavors but there is still a bigger difference there than playing a melee dps class in ffxiv and occasionally throwing in a skill from another class.
The game is artisanal quality vanilla ice cream. It's good for what it is, but some people will never be satisfied with vanilla ice cream no matter how high quality it is.
in FFXIV u can farm gear for other classes on your main , on WOW u cant ....
and roles are 1 job = 1 role , but in wow u have druids Bear tank , Boomkin = caster dps , Resto = heal, no different than changing from Warrior to Ninja or White mage in FFXIV ....
yeah isnt the same , because i loved some specs in WoW and changing from Destro to affliction and back spiced things up and it wasnt " the same" , 1 class in wow was like 3 in other games , that thing alone makes wow lots of fun .
You can't mix your jobs though. If you want to be competitive at endgame, you have to use jobs and not mix classes. Mixing classes is a leveling thing that you have to put up with for the most part. But yeah, up until you actually have to complete something challenging, you can mix and match skills between classes which is nice.
Jobs are not intended to be mixed. Classes are. I already explained that.
You're being disingenuous here. Jobs are, by design, intended to be very role specific.
And by the by, people do run content with groups comprised of Classes, even higher end content. Is it "typical"? No, because most people just go with the flow and follow the trend(s). However, it is quite do-able to put together a group of people, with well-selected cross-class abilities, and have some fun with them.
And both of his points are not mutually exclusive. In WoW, if you are playing a pure DPS, you have more than one way to play that role. If you are playing a class with multiple roles, you have access to multiple roles. You can carry and argue both points at the same time.
Okay, people seem to be missing the contradiction here- probably deliberately. So I'll explain once again.
They are mutually exclusive - unless we're now going to start ignoring what was actually said?
Their original complaint was that they don't like "one class, one role".
A "Role" would be: DPS, Healer, Tank, etc. That's your role in a group.
So, for them to turn around and state that WoW did it well, is to completely contradict their own complaint, because WoW's setup is - by design - One Class, One Role.
It doesn't matter if you're Arcane, Fire or Ice... as a mage your ROLE in a group is still DPS.
It doesn't matter what tree you go down in Hunter, your ROLE in a group is still DPS.
So, yes, what they said was, in fact contradictory, because the two situations are mutually exclusive.
I know people are going to spin, twist, distort and ignore themselves in circles because their narrative requires them to. It doesn't change anything. Ignoring the facts doesn't change them.
In WoW, if you are playing a pure DPS character, you can play your role in 3 different main ways. 1 role, 1 class like you said. There are 4 classes that are like that. They are able to play in 3 main ways each.
In WoW, if you are playing a class that is able to do multiple roles, you are able to do multiple roles within 1 class. There are 7 classes that play multiple roles. Your idea that because there are a few classes that only play 1 role and therefor the entire system is 1 role 1 class is asinine.
I guess there is always a chance that you don't know how WoW works and that you literally think that it IS 1 class 1 role. But it is not. All I can do is list the facts of how it works. I can't force you to understand.
And your attack on my credibility and my intent to drive a narrative is amateurish at best. Next time try and stick to the what we are discussing and when you notice that someone else has a point that is damning to your argument, concede. It's better to concede a point than to get dragged into a lengthy discussion where you are always behind because the facts are not on your side.
It is fun, it does lack depth; if you were expecting anything more it's not going to change. Especially not it's core design / mechanics. It will still be based around a GS treadmill going forward, and the base multi-classing system they had build the jobs on are still going to be lackluster.
The problem is that 1) the combat is far too simplistic to allow for much customization. Every class has their rotation that works, with few expections for modifications. 2) The whole cross-class system gets shot to *@%( as soon as you realize that the best gear is job-specific (which effectively locks classes out of being viable completely).
It's a shame, because the predecessor (FFXI) had so much complexity and depth to it, that anyone who played that game can feel how shallow this one is by comparison. The generic LBs, the complete lack of resistance types, etc.
It's still a fun game though, and one that a lot of my friends still enjoy. But no one I know still plays it any more than in bite sized chunks.
Don't know if anyone else feels this way, but even though Final Fantasy XIV ARR isn't a bad game per se, it just doesn't feel like the game Final Fantasy really deserved. When SE claimed they were going to revive the game and make it work I was excited and decided to dust off the original collectors edition I bought for fourteen dollars at a discount bin. Got to play through the Beta and when 2.0 finally came out I was happy just to be able to play a game that didn't feel completely disfunctional.
Now that I've come back to Heavensward and played to end game, it just feels like the entire revival attempt has resulted in a game using tired out systems, hoping that if it apes the Action MMORPG style popularized by WoW that it will keep itself afloat for a while. They've got a craft system that is just a more complicated version of the simple item factory model used to consume gathered resources, which only exists to justify the gatherers who are nothing but resource factories of their own. The only thing that matters in the game is end game, old dungeons are starting to get abandoned so new players have a harder time playing through them just like in WoW, and roulette is making people aggrivated because they are only doing them to get paid.
When I look back on it all, none of this really makes a good game as much as a familiar and playable one.
Personally I find the plot to be the best FF story in quite some time. The world feels exactly like I stepped into classic FF. None of the old dungeons have been abandoned at all.... You get 100 Tomestones of Law (end game gear currency) for running them so even at max lvl I continue to run them.
I have to wonder if we're playing the same game or if it's really possible to have such disparate experiences while playing the same title.
In WoW, if you are playing a pure DPS character, you can play your role in 3 different main ways. 1 role, 1 class like you said. There are 4 classes that are like that. They are able to play in 3 main ways each.
Okay, glad you've admitted that.
In WoW, if you are playing a class that is able to do multiple roles, you are able to do multiple roles within 1 class. There are 7 classes that play multiple roles. Your idea that because there are a few classes that only play 1 role and therefor the entire system is 1 role 1 class is asinine.
Sure.
Regardless, it's some of the classes, and not all.
It's relevant if you happen to be interested in playing any of those specific classes.
Otherwise? 1 Class = 1 Role.
Thank you for helping support my point that the other poster is contradicting themself.
I guess there is always a chance that you don't know how WoW works and that you literally think that it IS 1 class 1 role. But it is not. All I can do is list the facts of how it works. I can't force you to understand.
I started WoW in Beta, and played on and off through the years, with the last expansion I picked up being Pandaria. I've played Druid, and Cleric. I've played a bit with a Troll Shaman, though I didn't spend much time on the Horde side. I also played a Shadow Priest for a bit. My main, however, was a Warlock.
Regardless... Nothing you've explained undermines my point.
It actually helps demonstrate the hypocrisy and selective reasoning of yourself, and of others in this thread whom are actually attempting to argue that WoW's system is somehow more flexible than XIV's, particularly where "different roles" is concerned.
And your attack on my credibility and my intent to drive a narrative is amateurish at best. Next time try and stick to the what we are discussing and when you notice that someone else has a point that is damning to your argument, concede. It's better to concede a point than to get dragged into a lengthy discussion where you are always behind because the facts are not on your side.
Oh, but you are driving a narrative. This very post of yours proves that. You are conveniently ignoring details that don't support your narrative, and only acknowledging those that do.
I do find it cute, though, how you think you got one over on me. Adorable.
Now, speaking of people being asinine, and "needing to understand"...
There's a key concept you ardent WoW folks don't understand - or are conveniently ignoring.
I get it. To a WoW player, the idea that having the option to play 3 styles/roles on some of the available classes sounds really impressive! Makes it seem like you have all these options! In fairness, it is neat. It's nice to have a couple other options on one character. Any amount of flexibility is nice to have.
However, it's 3 possible roles on certain classes, in a game where your Class is your Character. If you roll up Bob The Druid... they will always be Bob the Druid, no matter what style they're playing at any given moment. And they will only ever be able to play those 3 roles.
By comparison, on an apples-to-apples basis of "role options per character", XIV utterly eclipses WoW, and there's no denying that, try as you devoted WoW people might.
Here's why:
In WoW, you are identified by your class. Again, your class is your character. To play a different Class, you have to roll a new character. That new character can only be one class. Want to play something else? Gotta roll up another character, which will also be one class.
All the achievements, all the things that aren't account-wide will have to be done again, and again, and again, with each new character you create. That gets boring. No wonder Blizzard is able to sell high level characters. But I digress.
Conversely, In FFXIV, your class is not your character. Your character is your character, and you can be any of the classes the game offers, now and into the future, without having to switch to an alt. You won't have to re-do all those achievements and such on each Class/Job, because you already completed them as your character.
While he's just a Druid in WoW... in XIV, Bob can be Warrior, Paladin, Monk, Dragoon, Bard, Black Mage, White Mage, Summoner, Scholar, Ninja, Dark Knight, Astrologian and Machinist... all on the same character. That's not even getting into the Disciple of Hand or Land classes. You can switch freely between these jobs, so long as you have them unlocked.
So to say something like, "well, a White Mage can't switch to a Tanking role in XIV, like a Druid can in WoW" is pointless. It's stupid to even make that argument. A character in XIV wouldn't need to tank as a White Mage, because they already have 3 Tanking specific Jobs they can switch to instead, on that same Character.
As much as you WoW folks would like to frame that as some kind of major problem for XIV, "because Druids and Paladins can do it in WoW"... it just isn't, and trying to assert otherwise, as some do, is just grasping at best.
But it goes further...
In XIV, you can modify how a given class is played, by equipping gear with appropriate stats, and hotkeying cross-class skills to augment or complement your base abilities. This is especially so playing the base Classes, as they aren't specialized, like the Jobs are, and have more options available. By equipping the ideal gear, and slotting appropriate cross-class skills, you can be a tanky Pugilist (class form of Monk). I've seen discussions of people who've done their research and done just that. I've heard of healers who can do decent damage output in a fight. I can take any single class, and spec it out in a number of different ways.
Are they all feasible for all content? No. But they don't have to be. The point is, you have that option in XIV.
So, in the end, compared to the flexibility and options FFXIV's system offers on a single character, WoW's system is just not that impressive. It doesn't even come close.
I realize that's a tough pill for you WoW fans to swallow, but.. well... there you go.
But FFXIV is easily the best MMO in the market right now.
It has so much endgame content, raids are extensive, climatic and hard, tons of classes, all with their own playstyle and systems, crafting is very fun and relevant at endgame unlike most MMOs, and gathering is actually entertaining.
But FFXIV is easily the best MMO in the market right now.
It has so much endgame content, raids are extensive, climatic and hard, tons of classes, all with their own playstyle and systems, crafting is very fun and relevant at endgame unlike most MMOs, and gathering is actually entertaining.
But the thing is they stopped listening to their player base. One of the big catches to their redesign was that they should never forget their fans. Many took this as meaning they were paying attention to player feedback, but that has not been the case. They have not been very forthcoming with responding to player concerns, to the point of completely ignoring some of the most consistent concerns that existed since release.
They have now stooped to selling seasonal items via a cash shop to make up for the inconsistent subscription fees. Their subscription issues show they have squandered what trust their fans had in them by refusing to handle the concerns being put forward. The expansion improves on the story telling aspects of the game, but then further complicated several other player concerns, such as inventory issues and the damage dealer problems existing from release.
I wouldn't be surprised if they were funneling funds out of FFXIV:ARR and using them for other products, hindering the game's development. SE is still run by the same cronies that were around when FFXIV and FFXIII first showed up. Not to mention Final Fantasy All the Bravest cash shop mobile game.
But the thing is they stopped listening to their player base.
Are you kidding me? Where do you think Alexander Savage vs Alexander Normal came from? From the player base.
RE: OP
I am not sure what you were expecting but we have a game with difficult and enjoyable endgame (raiding) and enjoyable non endgame (Alexander Normal/Experts) and to spice things up you have Experts. When 'bored' you can always do ventures/farm old EX Primals for ponies, do triple threat card games, play other games @ Golden Saucer, Chocobo Race, level ALT classes/jobs / Level new classes/jobs.
Not to mention that this game has THE most and FASTEST content updates. They are constantly having new things to do and new places to go. There are tons of side quests/jobs to do as well. Also there are THREE new jobs (vs typical MMOS 1 new class/job and 1 race per expansion).
In WoW, if you are playing a pure DPS character, you can play your role in 3 different main ways. 1 role, 1 class like you said. There are 4 classes that are like that. They are able to play in 3 main ways each.
Okay, glad you've admitted that.
In WoW, if you are playing a class that is able to do multiple roles, you are able to do multiple roles within 1 class. There are 7 classes that play multiple roles. Your idea that because there are a few classes that only play 1 role and therefor the entire system is 1 role 1 class is asinine.
Sure.
Regardless, it's some of the classes, and not all.
It's relevant if you happen to be interested in playing any of those specific classes.
Otherwise? 1 Class = 1 Role.
Thank you for helping support my point that the other poster is contradicting themself.
I guess there is always a chance that you don't know how WoW works and that you literally think that it IS 1 class 1 role. But it is not. All I can do is list the facts of how it works. I can't force you to understand.
I started WoW in Beta, and played on and off through the years, with the last expansion I picked up being Pandaria. I've played Druid, and Cleric. I've played a bit with a Troll Shaman, though I didn't spend much time on the Horde side. I also played a Shadow Priest for a bit. My main, however, was a Warlock.
Regardless... Nothing you've explained undermines my point.
It actually helps demonstrate the hypocrisy and selective reasoning of yourself, and of others in this thread whom are actually attempting to argue that WoW's system is somehow more flexible than XIV's, particularly where "different roles" is concerned.
And your attack on my credibility and my intent to drive a narrative is amateurish at best. Next time try and stick to the what we are discussing and when you notice that someone else has a point that is damning to your argument, concede. It's better to concede a point than to get dragged into a lengthy discussion where you are always behind because the facts are not on your side.
Oh, but you are driving a narrative. This very post of yours proves that. You are conveniently ignoring details that don't support your narrative, and only acknowledging those that do.
I do find it cute, though, how you think you got one over on me. Adorable.
Now, speaking of people being asinine, and "needing to understand"...
There's a key concept you ardent WoW folks don't understand - or are conveniently ignoring.
I get it. To a WoW player, the idea that having the option to play 3 styles/roles on some of the available classes sounds really impressive! Makes it seem like you have all these options! In fairness, it is neat. It's nice to have a couple other options on one character. Any amount of flexibility is nice to have.
However, it's 3 possible roles on certain classes, in a game where your Class is your Character. If you roll up Bob The Druid... they will always be Bob the Druid, no matter what style they're playing at any given moment. And they will only ever be able to play those 3 roles.
By comparison, on an apples-to-apples basis of "role options per character", XIV utterly eclipses WoW, and there's no denying that, try as you devoted WoW people might.
Here's why:
In WoW, you are identified by your class. Again, your class is your character. To play a different Class, you have to roll a new character. That new character can only be one class. Want to play something else? Gotta roll up another character, which will also be one class.
All the achievements, all the things that aren't account-wide will have to be done again, and again, and again, with each new character you create. That gets boring. No wonder Blizzard is able to sell high level characters. But I digress.
Conversely, In FFXIV, your class is not your character. Your character is your character, and you can be any of the classes the game offers, now and into the future, without having to switch to an alt. You won't have to re-do all those achievements and such on each Class/Job, because you already completed them as your character.
While he's just a Druid in WoW... in XIV, Bob can be Warrior, Paladin, Monk, Dragoon, Bard, Black Mage, White Mage, Summoner, Scholar, Ninja, Dark Knight, Astrologian and Machinist... all on the same character. That's not even getting into the Disciple of Hand or Land classes. You can switch freely between these jobs, so long as you have them unlocked.
So to say something like, "well, a White Mage can't switch to a Tanking role in XIV, like a Druid can in WoW" is pointless. It's stupid to even make that argument. A character in XIV wouldn't need to tank as a White Mage, because they already have 3 Tanking specific Jobs they can switch to instead, on that same Character.
As much as you WoW folks would like to frame that as some kind of major problem for XIV, "because Druids and Paladins can do it in WoW"... it just isn't, and trying to assert otherwise, as some do, is just grasping at best.
But it goes further...
In XIV, you can modify how a given class is played, by equipping gear with appropriate stats, and hotkeying cross-class skills to augment or complement your base abilities. This is especially so playing the base Classes, as they aren't specialized, like the Jobs are, and have more options available. By equipping the ideal gear, and slotting appropriate cross-class skills, you can be a tanky Pugilist (class form of Monk). I've seen discussions of people who've done their research and done just that. I've heard of healers who can do decent damage output in a fight. I can take any single class, and spec it out in a number of different ways.
Are they all feasible for all content? No. But they don't have to be. The point is, you have that option in XIV.
So, in the end, compared to the flexibility and options FFXIV's system offers on a single character, WoW's system is just not that impressive. It doesn't even come close.
I realize that's a tough pill for you WoW fans to swallow, but.. well... there you go.
You're not wrong but your perspective is self-centered.
A big part of immersion for many players is how they imagine their character. If they imagine their character as a powerful, heavy armored, heavy armed warrior then that's what they want their character to be. Telling a player they have to completely change the image they had of their character because they suck at tanking or just don't want to tank can be game breaking for some people.
Personally, I always play a two handed sword/axe user of some sort. I enjoy being tanky but I do not enjoy the pressure that comes with tanking for a group. Pigeonholing me into a tanking role does not ruin my experience however it does impact it negatively.
Of course there are other players that are not impacted at all by strict role assignments. Maybe they're like you and don't have a problem with changing their class to fit their mood. Maybe they're part of a good guild that runs pre-mades where the mechanics don't enforce the strict role assignments. Maybe there's a whole other concept I didn't think of. The bottom line is, don't try to invalidate other perspectives by being a prat about it (I know that was in bad taste but I had to).
But the thing is they stopped listening to their player base. One of the big catches to their redesign was that they should never forget their fans. Many took this as meaning they were paying attention to player feedback, but that has not been the case. They have not been very forthcoming with responding to player concerns, to the point of completely ignoring some of the most consistent concerns that existed since release.
They have now stooped to selling seasonal items via a cash shop to make up for the inconsistent subscription fees. Their subscription issues show they have squandered what trust their fans had in them by refusing to handle the concerns being put forward. The expansion improves on the story telling aspects of the game, but then further complicated several other player concerns, such as inventory issues and the damage dealer problems existing from release.
I wouldn't be surprised if they were funneling funds out of FFXIV:ARR and using them for other products, hindering the game's development. SE is still run by the same cronies that were around when FFXIV and FFXIII first showed up. Not to mention Final Fantasy All the Bravest cash shop mobile game.
Your post makes you sound like you have some insider knowledge, because otherwise you're just pulling most of what you said out of your ass.
The dev team constantly responds to player feedback and quite often acts on said feedback in game, but it's unrealistic to expect them to cater to every possible complaint players have. The devs are going to stick to their guns in certain instances, unless one of those decisions prompts a mass exodus of players.
Comments
You can always level every class in WoW to max level as well. Then you'd have access to like 31 specs. The difference is, when you level one class in WoW, you often have multiple role options to choose from. If you pick a Paladin or Monk, you also have access to all 3 roles and in the case of a Druid, you have access to all 3 roles including a ranged and melee DPS. There really is a difference between the two games and when it comes to roles available per minute leveled, WoW is far more flexible.
On top of that, the character customization in WoW is far deeper as well. The talent system, gem system, enchanting system and the glyph system all offer far more customization for your character than FFXIV. It was one of my main issues before I stopped playing FFXIV. I chose White Mage and was forever just a White mage and got better gear every once in a while. Materia was extremely simple and basically just increased stats slightly. What a let down compared to the materia system in FFVII. People used to call WoW's character customization dumbed down, but when compared to FFXIV's customization, it looks brilliant.
I also think that the gameplay itself is much more slick in WoW. 1.5 second global cooldowns, far more interesting skills to choose from and controls that respond essentially better than any other MMORPG that I've played lead to a much more engaging experience in my opinion. Even given WoW's imperfect PvP, it is 300 million light years better than FFXIV's PvP. They should have never added PvP to FFXIV in the first place.
I also didn't like the story at all. I felt like it was intended for 10 year olds. People rave about this all the time, but I found it to be adolescent at best. The lack of voiceovers and the below average voiceovers that were there really left an impression on me. It seemed so much less professional than I had expected from them.
So yeah, I can see why someone might be disappointed with it. I know that as a Final Fantasy fan I was very disappointed. It was too bad that the whole time I was playing I felt like it was WoW, but worse. It was worse in many ways in my opinion, but it was really the gameplay that got me in the end. Oh, the agony of a 2.5 second global with a few instants - the simplicity of healing with a White Mage. In the end, it just plain bored me to death.
But it's still the same role which, per your own original argument, is your issue with it.
Again, you've shifted your argument from being about one thing, to being about something else.
Using Mage as an example again... Whether you're Arcane, Fire or Ice, you are still DPS. You are still filling the same role in a group. It's still One Class, One Role.
Is your issue that it's "one class, one role", as you originally stated?
Or is it in "not having more ways to play that one role"?
It can't be both, and I'm just looking for some resolution to these two conflicting views you've put forth. Some consistency.
If it's the former, then using WoW as an example really makes no sense, as it's One Class, One Role by definition.
If it's the latter, then XIV's Class system is even more flexibile than WoW's. You can take any given class, use your core abilities, and then mix it up with a variety of other skills learned from other Classes. You don't even need to choose a "tree".
You can make it your own.
You can't mix your jobs though. If you want to be competitive at endgame, you have to use jobs and not mix classes. Mixing classes is a leveling thing that you have to put up with for the most part. But yeah, up until you actually have to complete something challenging, you can mix and match skills between classes which is nice.
And both of his points are not mutually exclusive. In WoW, if you are playing a pure DPS, you have more than one way to play that role. If you are playing a class with multiple roles, you have access to multiple roles. You can carry and argue both points at the same time.
So you, and others, are basically saying "the class isn't designed to play the way I would want to play it".
The same could be said for every class in WoW. Or in any other MMO for that matter.
I don't care what MMO you pick, I can look at a class and say, "yeah, it can do this and this... but it can't do that and that.. and that's what really bothers me. It's "detrimental" for the game".
Of course, it's not really detrimental. I was just using your term, in quotes, which is, frankly, ridiculous. FFXIV is doing quite well with its setup, because there are plenty of people who do enjoy that setup.
Also, as I stated before, you can switch to a base class, and have access to 32 skills drawn from other classes. So you can be a Lancer who can also cast Protect and Heal their party members - even raise someone if they die. You have an ability to boost others' TP so they can continue using CD abilities. You're basically a DPS who can also fill back-up heal and support roles. And so on, and so on. There's a number of different builds you can setup through that system, all catering to a different playstyle.
So, in XIV, you have the ability to play it "pure", as a Job (e.g. Dragoon rather than Lancer), or create a highly customized Class build by utilizing cross-class abilities from other classes.
And then, of course, you can switch to and actually play any other class/job, which truly gives you the option to play any style available in the game.
Oh, and there are also 'stances' which change up how some jobs/classes actually play as well.
All of this is objectively true and factual. This isn't "opinion". And how someone "feels" about it, or however they try to dismiss or disqualify it, because it's inconvenient to their preferred narrative, doesn't change it.
Frankly, it seems to me that, perhaps excluding purely skill-based games, XIV gives you the most flexibility and choice in how you play of most titles out there - certainly most themepark MMOs. You literally have access to every class, job, skill and playstyle in the game, on a single character, and are free to switch between and train them all. Also, the benefits of this setup go beyond just the class/job system, as progress is tied to the character, not just a single class. In other words, if you've maxed out on one class, you don't have to create an alt and start completely over from scratch on everything to level another one.
My opinion, of course, but I think it's a pretty well-supported one.
If people are going to bring wow into this and argue that FFXIV has a more flexible system for characters, I'd disagree. They both are fairly non-restrictive, it's just they do it in different ways. World of Warcraft locks you to a role, but lets you choose how you want to play that role and allows the player to change the way they play that role at any time. FFXIV lets you play multiple roles, but they use a class system that makes it so if you want to play a role in a different way, you need to level another class / job.
Seeing both in action, unless Yoshida changes something World of Warcraft still feels like it offers a better experience. You'll have to level up something new either way whether we go with multiple classes on one character or not, and WoW lets the player choose how they play that role on that character.
this would be what you are doing right now. you are taking things way to literal and apparently way too personal aswell.
I had fun once, it was terrible.
Everybody knows that if you want to be competitive on end-game raiding (Savage mode) you need to be able to play at least 2-3 classes and switch easily.
I wouldn't take a BLM that cant play SMN if we need him to. Same applies to The tanks and healers. Different battles require different setups.
Thankfully you can level all classes with one char and eventually will be able to gear up 2-3 of them.
The multispec argument is mute. Asking for more specs when you can have all classes in one char doesn't make sense, especially if you consider that they are adding classes fairly often (4 new classes post launch).
The only reason you would want something like that is if you are extremely LAZY and if that's the case I don't give a damn about your opinion. Go play a game that offers free max level chars instead.
Oh wow I can put a basic dot attack or a slight damage booster or a basic heal on my monk. Mind blowing. I've hated this defense of FFXIV's cross class skills because it's not the gameplay changer people make it out to be. That's it. In wow, feral druids played vastly different from a moonkin or a resto druid. Moonkin and feral druid are the same dps role, but obviously they're very different playstyles. The difference is not as great between mage flavors but there is still a bigger difference there than playing a melee dps class in ffxiv and occasionally throwing in a skill from another class.
The game is artisanal quality vanilla ice cream. It's good for what it is, but some people will never be satisfied with vanilla ice cream no matter how high quality it is.
in FFXIV u can farm gear for other classes on your main , on WOW u cant ....
and roles are 1 job = 1 role , but in wow u have druids Bear tank , Boomkin = caster dps , Resto = heal, no different than changing from Warrior to Ninja or White mage in FFXIV ....
yeah isnt the same , because i loved some specs in WoW and changing from Destro to affliction and back spiced things up and it wasnt " the same" , 1 class in wow was like 3 in other games , that thing alone makes wow lots of fun .
In WoW, if you are playing a pure DPS character, you can play your role in 3 different main ways. 1 role, 1 class like you said. There are 4 classes that are like that. They are able to play in 3 main ways each.
In WoW, if you are playing a class that is able to do multiple roles, you are able to do multiple roles within 1 class. There are 7 classes that play multiple roles. Your idea that because there are a few classes that only play 1 role and therefor the entire system is 1 role 1 class is asinine.
I guess there is always a chance that you don't know how WoW works and that you literally think that it IS 1 class 1 role. But it is not. All I can do is list the facts of how it works. I can't force you to understand.
And your attack on my credibility and my intent to drive a narrative is amateurish at best. Next time try and stick to the what we are discussing and when you notice that someone else has a point that is damning to your argument, concede. It's better to concede a point than to get dragged into a lengthy discussion where you are always behind because the facts are not on your side.
FFXIV expansion really lacks endgame - other than 2 8-man dungeon on 2 level of difficulty and 2 Primals - it has not a single raid so far.
The worse part is the gear grind while only having 1 set pr job. For such a high profile game - tha's horrible oversite.
The game is fun.
Originally posted by Jonas_SG
Even WITH a raid. I hopped off the treadmill as soon as I realized I was on it.
FFXIV is literally WoW-lite with a FF skin.
It is fun, it does lack depth; if you were expecting anything more it's not going to change. Especially not it's core design / mechanics. It will still be based around a GS treadmill going forward, and the base multi-classing system they had build the jobs on are still going to be lackluster.
The problem is that 1) the combat is far too simplistic to allow for much customization. Every class has their rotation that works, with few expections for modifications. 2) The whole cross-class system gets shot to *@%( as soon as you realize that the best gear is job-specific (which effectively locks classes out of being viable completely).
It's a shame, because the predecessor (FFXI) had so much complexity and depth to it, that anyone who played that game can feel how shallow this one is by comparison. The generic LBs, the complete lack of resistance types, etc.
It's still a fun game though, and one that a lot of my friends still enjoy. But no one I know still plays it any more than in bite sized chunks.
Is your definition of a raid an instance with more than 4 bosses or something? Because that doesn't seem to fit within SE's design philosophy.
Personally I find the plot to be the best FF story in quite some time. The world feels exactly like I stepped into classic FF. None of the old dungeons have been abandoned at all.... You get 100 Tomestones of Law (end game gear currency) for running them so even at max lvl I continue to run them.
I have to wonder if we're playing the same game or if it's really possible to have such disparate experiences while playing the same title.
Steam: Neph
More like "FFXIV is like WoW, only good!"
The rest you say is garbage, a simple google search can debacle your post so I'm not gonna waste more words on you.
Now, speaking of people being asinine, and "needing to understand"...
There's a key concept you ardent WoW folks don't understand - or are conveniently ignoring.
I get it. To a WoW player, the idea that having the option to play 3 styles/roles on some of the available classes sounds really impressive! Makes it seem like you have all these options! In fairness, it is neat. It's nice to have a couple other options on one character. Any amount of flexibility is nice to have.
However, it's 3 possible roles on certain classes, in a game where your Class is your Character. If you roll up Bob The Druid... they will always be Bob the Druid, no matter what style they're playing at any given moment. And they will only ever be able to play those 3 roles.
By comparison, on an apples-to-apples basis of "role options per character", XIV utterly eclipses WoW, and there's no denying that, try as you devoted WoW people might.
Here's why:
In WoW, you are identified by your class. Again, your class is your character. To play a different Class, you have to roll a new character. That new character can only be one class. Want to play something else? Gotta roll up another character, which will also be one class.
All the achievements, all the things that aren't account-wide will have to be done again, and again, and again, with each new character you create. That gets boring. No wonder Blizzard is able to sell high level characters. But I digress.
Conversely, In FFXIV, your class is not your character. Your character is your character, and you can be any of the classes the game offers, now and into the future, without having to switch to an alt. You won't have to re-do all those achievements and such on each Class/Job, because you already completed them as your character.
While he's just a Druid in WoW... in XIV, Bob can be Warrior, Paladin, Monk, Dragoon, Bard, Black Mage, White Mage, Summoner, Scholar, Ninja, Dark Knight, Astrologian and Machinist... all on the same character. That's not even getting into the Disciple of Hand or Land classes. You can switch freely between these jobs, so long as you have them unlocked.
So to say something like, "well, a White Mage can't switch to a Tanking role in XIV, like a Druid can in WoW" is pointless. It's stupid to even make that argument. A character in XIV wouldn't need to tank as a White Mage, because they already have 3 Tanking specific Jobs they can switch to instead, on that same Character.
As much as you WoW folks would like to frame that as some kind of major problem for XIV, "because Druids and Paladins can do it in WoW"... it just isn't, and trying to assert otherwise, as some do, is just grasping at best.
But it goes further...
In XIV, you can modify how a given class is played, by equipping gear with appropriate stats, and hotkeying cross-class skills to augment or complement your base abilities. This is especially so playing the base Classes, as they aren't specialized, like the Jobs are, and have more options available. By equipping the ideal gear, and slotting appropriate cross-class skills, you can be a tanky Pugilist (class form of Monk). I've seen discussions of people who've done their research and done just that. I've heard of healers who can do decent damage output in a fight. I can take any single class, and spec it out in a number of different ways.
Are they all feasible for all content? No. But they don't have to be. The point is, you have that option in XIV.
So, in the end, compared to the flexibility and options FFXIV's system offers on a single character, WoW's system is just not that impressive. It doesn't even come close.
I realize that's a tough pill for you WoW fans to swallow, but.. well... there you go.
But FFXIV is easily the best MMO in the market right now.
It has so much endgame content, raids are extensive, climatic and hard, tons of classes, all with their own playstyle and systems, crafting is very fun and relevant at endgame unlike most MMOs, and gathering is actually entertaining.
But the thing is they stopped listening to their player base. One of the big catches to their redesign was that they should never forget their fans. Many took this as meaning they were paying attention to player feedback, but that has not been the case. They have not been very forthcoming with responding to player concerns, to the point of completely ignoring some of the most consistent concerns that existed since release.
They have now stooped to selling seasonal items via a cash shop to make up for the inconsistent subscription fees. Their subscription issues show they have squandered what trust their fans had in them by refusing to handle the concerns being put forward. The expansion improves on the story telling aspects of the game, but then further complicated several other player concerns, such as inventory issues and the damage dealer problems existing from release.
I wouldn't be surprised if they were funneling funds out of FFXIV:ARR and using them for other products, hindering the game's development. SE is still run by the same cronies that were around when FFXIV and FFXIII first showed up. Not to mention Final Fantasy All the Bravest cash shop mobile game.
Are you kidding me? Where do you think Alexander Savage vs Alexander Normal came from? From the player base.
RE: OP
I am not sure what you were expecting but we have a game with difficult and enjoyable endgame (raiding) and enjoyable non endgame (Alexander Normal/Experts) and to spice things up you have Experts. When 'bored' you can always do ventures/farm old EX Primals for ponies, do triple threat card games, play other games @ Golden Saucer, Chocobo Race, level ALT classes/jobs / Level new classes/jobs.
Not to mention that this game has THE most and FASTEST content updates. They are constantly having new things to do and new places to go. There are tons of side quests/jobs to do as well. Also there are THREE new jobs (vs typical MMOS 1 new class/job and 1 race per expansion).
IMHO you have unrealistic expectation for MMOS.
Sharess Dragonstar - Midgard
Grievance is recruiting.
You're not wrong but your perspective is self-centered.
A big part of immersion for many players is how they imagine their character. If they imagine their character as a powerful, heavy armored, heavy armed warrior then that's what they want their character to be. Telling a player they have to completely change the image they had of their character because they suck at tanking or just don't want to tank can be game breaking for some people.
Personally, I always play a two handed sword/axe user of some sort. I enjoy being tanky but I do not enjoy the pressure that comes with tanking for a group. Pigeonholing me into a tanking role does not ruin my experience however it does impact it negatively.
Of course there are other players that are not impacted at all by strict role assignments. Maybe they're like you and don't have a problem with changing their class to fit their mood. Maybe they're part of a good guild that runs pre-mades where the mechanics don't enforce the strict role assignments. Maybe there's a whole other concept I didn't think of. The bottom line is, don't try to invalidate other perspectives by being a prat about it (I know that was in bad taste but I had to).
Your post makes you sound like you have some insider knowledge, because otherwise you're just pulling most of what you said out of your ass.
The dev team constantly responds to player feedback and quite often acts on said feedback in game, but it's unrealistic to expect them to cater to every possible complaint players have. The devs are going to stick to their guns in certain instances, unless one of those decisions prompts a mass exodus of players.