i feel like a skill based lvling system were you have character lvl based of exp and skill lvl based on how often you use tat actual skill and completing challenges involving that skill. and dont have a lvl cap .
If people don't want "progression" Why go against the grain and try and inject rpg staples into mmorpgs?
Just go the action adventure root, Pick a character and go at it. Have a set list of skills a character can do and abandon the progression there by normalizing characters.
In regards to "Why do content"?: Planetside 2 is a great example of people doing stuff just for fun, a merry go round of people shooting each other for hours with no meaningful reward outside of certs.
Surely it wouldn't be that hard to devise an massivly multiplayer action adventure game based on "fun"?
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
People keep saying "it should take very long to reach max level, like those games in the old days...."
My question is why do mmorpg have to be about leveling up?
I played many asian grinders which I have been the highest level characters on the server because I'm addicted, and I kind of understand people do it to progress their characters to be stronger...
But why does it have to be that way. Why can't mmorpg make it easy for people to maximize their character stats and let people play how ever they want? Aka Guild wars? What's wrong with that?
Not putting any work/effort for an achievement = that achievement feeling lack of merit or reward.
Leveling has always been the best building block for a characters progression in an mmorpg.
If you don't want to progress or level, then don't play an rpg. There are plenty of games out there now that don't have levels. As of now there is a serious lack of games with leveling. So I don't see why you are complaining, if you don't want any leveling.
I spend a lot of time in GW2 doing dungeons either soloing or in groups. I could spend a whole day just trying to kill a dungeon boss solo.
People spend countless hours in raids "trying to take out big boss".
People spend hours trying to master their skill in pvp.
Those people arn't putting in effort? You mean grinding level is putting in effort?
I get what you are saying. I spend a huge amount of time just grinding level to get stronger too.
But quite honestly, most of the fun time I have in mmorpg is when I maxed my stats and focusing on "getting better at the game skill wise".
Leveling as progression is just a shallow part of the game play to me. I remember many mmorpg where when I hit maxed level, or highest rank, I immediately quit the game. Because deep down I know I'm just exhausting myself to get stronger, because that's all I can think of.
Level Typically, a character starts at 1st level and advances in level by adventuring and gaining experience points (XP). A 1st-level character is inexperienced in the adventuring world, although he or she might have been a soldier or a pirate and done dangerous things before. Starting off at 1st level marks your character’s entry into the adventuring life. If you’re already familiar with the game, or if you are joining an existing D&D campaign, your DM might decide to have you begin at a higher level, on the assumption that your character has already survived a few harrowing adventures. Record your level on your character sheet. If you’re starting at a higher level, record the additional elements your class gives you for your levels past 1st. Also record your experience points. A 1st-level character has 0 XP. A higher-level character typically begins with the minimum amount of XP required to reach that level (see “Beyond 1st Level” later in this chapter).
I definitely agree with the op's point about advocating for more horizontal progression. And GW1 did this incredibly well. The hunt for new skills that you actually had to complete content to get to, and especially elite skills that were only accessible from boss kills, was a great incentive. The skill build system that they used kept me constantly theorycrafting new builds that I would mule over in my head at work, just so I could rush home and try them out. That and the content itself was typically very good and wasn't just a bunch of fetch quests, or kill 10 of these. Basically every mission was a 4-6-8-12 man dungeon. As much as I like GW2, I really wish it was a little more like GW1.
I'm not so much a fan of the gear treadmill. I dislike it even more than the level treadmills. GW1 also had a really good answer to that, with their weapon modification system. Finding max damage weapons was common, it was all about finding them and then slapping the right mods on it that you would salvage from other weapons, and then making sure that they were compatible with your build stats for the build you were attempting. You would often have to have different weapon sets that you would swap to depending on the build to get the most out of them.
Because that would be going against an rpg genre staple: Progression.
Would it? How many MMORPGs do you know where progression ends at max level?
AH, but there was progression. IF you want to make a game that doesn't have progression, that is great. Don't call it a RPG. Come up with a new term for it or just call it a game. There shouldn't be a problem with that.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Because that would be going against an rpg genre staple: Progression.
Would it? How many MMORPGs do you know where progression ends at max level?
AH, but there was progression. IF you want to make a game that doesn't have progression, that is great. Don't call it a RPG. Come up with a new term for it or just call it a game. There shouldn't be a problem with that.
The MMORPG specifically is an online version of the Pen&Paper / Tabletop RPGs, whereas Leveling is not necessarily what either is about. P&P / TT RPGs and by extension, MMORPGs, are about Progression. Said Progression is a matter of following a character through some series of episodes, through some series of seasons, whereas you get to make that character's decisions. Said Progression is about storylines of the world in which the character exists and the characters themselves.
Progression easily translates into Levels. Without Levels, you may have Progression through Building Skills. Skill-Building and Leveling are in fact the same thing, but presented in different ways. Given Progression in either sense for an MMORPG, just does not seem to be an MMORPG without it, you see a lot of Leveling-based MMO-MMORPGs. The main reason for this if I had to guess, is because it is easier to balance a Level-based MMO-MMORPG than it is to balance a Skill-Building MMO-MMORPG (and most companies can not even get Level-based MMO-MMORPGs balanced correctly).
Progression easily translates into Levels. Without Levels, you may have Progression through Building Skills. Skill-Building and Leveling are in fact the same thing, but presented in different ways.
The only way that this statement is true, is semantically. Otherwise these two progression systems play out entirely differently in practice.
Leveling based systems give you a certain amount of XP in order to obtain your next level. Upon obtaining this level the character is presented with a handful of pre-determined options for progressing the class. (I would use the word character, but levels and classes are so tied together in modern MMORPG's that they might as well be double strands of DNA.) These options never change and quite often there is one progression path out of the 2-3 provided which is quite clearly better. In the end, all serious players end up with the exact same build.
In skill based leveling, the player determines the makeup of their own character by determining which skills to train. They pick the direction of progressive travel, not the game developer. You can randomly sample 100 players in EVE Online, for instance, and not one of them will have the same set of skills as another. The same could be said for most other skill based MMORPG's.
I agree wIth artifice. In practice they are the same. Yes in skill based you can pick the skills but you are doing the exact same thing for the exact same rereason and in both you are still getting more powerful.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Progression easily translates into Levels. Without Levels, you may have Progression through Building Skills. Skill-Building and Leveling are in fact the same thing, but presented in different ways.
The only way that this statement is true, is semantically. Otherwise these two progression systems play out entirely differently in practice.
Leveling based systems give you a certain amount of XP in order to obtain your next level. Upon obtaining this level the character is presented with a handful of pre-determined options for progressing the class. (I would use the word character, but levels and classes are so tied together in modern MMORPG's that they might as well be double strands of DNA.) These options never change and quite often there is one progression path out of the 2-3 provided which is quite clearly better. In the end, all serious players end up with the exact same build.
In skill based leveling, the player determines the makeup of their own character by determining which skills to train. They pick the direction of progressive travel, not the game developer. You can randomly sample 100 players in EVE Online, for instance, and not one of them will have the same set of skills as another. The same could be said for most other skill based MMORPG's.
Actually, the idea that Leveling is somehow different from Skill Building, that is semantics. Any leveling system can be translated into a skill building system, and vice versa. Skill Building also has experience points, whether or not they are outright displayed.
When I play level-based systems, I tend to find ways of building my character differently than what "the norm" is all doing (and I do tend to catch crap from other players about building differently). Deciding how to do that is first a matter of recognizing the strengths of why that "norm" is being used by everyone. The second part of building differently, is to find ways of building other advantages compared to that "norm," particularly advantages that "norm" can not achieve. The third part of building differently, is a matter of learning how that different build plays, knowing strengths and weaknesses (like any build).
For skill-based systems, you will notice that no matter how much a player attempts to imagine their own unique character, characters will also fall into what skills are best with other particular skills. Beyond this, attempting to build skills "all over the map," can make you a jack of all trades and a master of none. Generally, characters are still quite noticeably all the same, given different "class" type similarities or exactnesses. So the end result of both level based and skill based games, usually is that the majority of characters are carbon copies of everyone else. I am usually one of the very few that break that trend (and even then, not with all of my characters), so I tend to notice that sort of stuff (as I also happen to be one of the people that inspects everyone else, which many seem against doing).
As far as EVE goes, everyone is pretty much what ship they fly. Ships are like some outfit that determines their "class" that can be taken off and a different one put on. EVE has some great ideas that I saw, and that was definitely one of those.
People keep saying "it should take very long to reach max level, like those games in the old days...."
My question is why do mmorpg have to be about leveling up?
I played many asian grinders which I have been the highest level characters on the server because I'm addicted, and I kind of understand people do it to progress their characters to be stronger...
But why does it have to be that way. Why can't mmorpg make it easy for people to maximize their character stats and let people play how ever they want? Aka Guild wars? What's wrong with that?
Not putting any work/effort for an achievement = that achievement feeling lack of merit or reward.
Leveling has always been the best building block for a characters progression in an mmorpg.
If you don't want to progress or level, then don't play an rpg. There are plenty of games out there now that don't have levels. As of now there is a serious lack of games with leveling. So I don't see why you are complaining, if you don't want any leveling.
I spend a lot of time in GW2 doing dungeons either soloing or in groups. I could spend a whole day just trying to kill a dungeon boss solo.
People spend countless hours in raids "trying to take out big boss".
People spend hours trying to master their skill in pvp.
Those people arn't putting in effort? You mean grinding level is putting in effort?
I get what you are saying. I spend a huge amount of time just grinding level to get stronger too.
But quite honestly, most of the fun time I have in mmorpg is when I maxed my stats and focusing on "getting better at the game skill wise".
Leveling as progression is just a shallow part of the game play to me. I remember many mmorpg where when I hit maxed level, or highest rank, I immediately quit the game. Because deep down I know I'm just exhausting myself to get stronger, because that's all I can think of.
I quite the game when I've done most of the things I've wanted to do. Which may or may not include leveling to max. It depends if work is equal to reward. Most of the time I explore the game to mid level and leave. A very few I really enjoy and stay.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
An MMO shouldn't have skills or levels, and a set amount of HP, mana (if it has magic) and stamina points.If there are skills, then content is trivilized and never a challenge again. If there are levels, content is outleveled and never a challenge again. If you get too much HP, you are just a health sponge. Its not realistic to get tons of stamina as you progress through a game, that doesn't happen in real life and mana is just mana.
An MMO should only have items, and (if it has magic) spells to learn. Skills and levels trivilize content. If an MMO has no skills or levels, then content will never get old or outdated and even "newbie" content will always be a challenge to someone playing for a long time.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
It serves as a carrot on the stick to keep you playing/paying. Same purpose that raids have. For the player it's seen as character progression. For the dev studio it's seen as financial progression.
Progression easily translates into Levels. Without Levels, you may have Progression through Building Skills. Skill-Building and Leveling are in fact the same thing, but presented in different ways.
Stuff
Actually, the idea that Leveling is somehow different from Skill Building, that is semantics. Any leveling system can be translated into a skill building system, and vice versa. Skill Building also has experience points, whether or not they are outright displayed.
I already said that the only way these two are similar is in the semantics.
You're also not looking deeply enough into game design if you really believe that any leveling system can be translated into a skill building system. Trying to translate WoW or SWTOR from a leveling system to a skill based system would change the entire game from the ground up. Every single aspect of these games are based around the tightly controlled level and class systems.
Give people the ability to put skill points into any skill tree they want, as you would have in games like EVE, Darkfall or Perpetuum, and the entire fabric of the game would dissolve. Raids, which depend on carefully controlled classes, would be a cakewalk
When I play level-based systems, I tend to find ways of building my character differently than what "the norm" is all doing (and I do tend to catch crap from other players about building differently). Deciding how to do that is first a matter of recognizing the strengths of why that "norm" is being used by everyone. The second part of building differently, is to find ways of building other advantages compared to that "norm," particularly advantages that "norm" can not achieve. The third part of building differently, is a matter of learning how that different build plays, knowing strengths and weaknesses (like any build).
Oh, you're that special snowflake that always brings a sub-optimal build to a raid while claiming that you're the only person with special insight into the class.
Sorry buddy, but you really don't know more about the Tauren Shaman or Jedi Vigilant Guardian than other top level players have already figured out from hundreds of hours of testing builds.
However, if you really like figuring out a character and playing it differently than other players, then I suggest you try Age of Conan. The only meter in the game is a DPS meter which is widely regarded as terrible for judging a players effectiveness in an encounter. All of the raid mechanics in AoC are server-side and hidden from the players. This means that six different Guardians can show up to tank a boss with six different builds, and as long as they can hold aggro, then no one cares because it's not possible to prove the "optimal build" in AoC with math.
For skill-based systems, you will notice that no matter how much a player attempts to imagine their own unique character, characters will also fall into what skills are best with other particular skills. Beyond this, attempting to build skills "all over the map," can make you a jack of all trades and a master of none. Generally, characters are still quite noticeably all the same, given different "class" type similarities or exactnesses. So the end result of both level based and skill based games, usually is that the majority of characters are carbon copies of everyone else. I am usually one of the very few that break that trend (and even then, not with all of my characters), so I tend to notice that sort of stuff (as I also happen to be one of the people that inspects everyone else, which many seem against doing).
As someone who predominantly plays skill based games, this is so far off base that it makes me wonder if you've ever installed one much less played one. I mean, I literally just told you that if you were to randomly pull 100 character sheets in EVE, then no two would look alike, and you're response is "dey all looka alike".
Can you pull 100 random character sheets in EVE Online? Sure can. Right here. Want a random sample? Just review the "recently added pilots" list. Compare their character sheets. Show me any two with the same exact skills at the same exact levels, and yes, the levels matter a lot. Especially the Spaceship Command skills.
As far as EVE goes, everyone is pretty much what ship they fly. Ships are like some outfit that determines their "class" that can be taken off and a different one put on. EVE has some great ideas that I saw, and that was definitely one of those.
This is 100% ignorance.
When I fly a Hurricane class Battlecruiser, I will have a different set of skills with that same exact ship as 100 other players; probably more considering the hundreds of variables.
Dozens of skills effect every ship that you crawl into from the basic ship skill, to fitting skills, to energy management skills, to navigation skills, to gunnery skills, to missile skills, to capacitor warfare skills, to offensive ECM skills, to defensive ECM skills, to drone skills, to active shield skills, to passive shield skills, to active armor skills, to passive armor skills. I could keep going for a while. A long while.
These skills aren't trained to max level over night. To be a 100% perfect Hurricane Battlecruiser pilot would take several years of training all the possible skills for all the possible equipment that you could use on a Hurricane. You can be effective in a Hurricane in a few months, but my ten year old character is far better than the average player in the same ship.
When I fly a Hurricane class Battlecruiser, I will have a different set of skills with that same exact ship as 100 other players; probably more considering the hundreds of variables.
Dozens of skills effect every ship that you crawl into from the basic ship skill, to fitting skills, to energy management skills, to navigation skills, to gunnery skills, to missile skills, to capacitor warfare skills, to offensive ECM skills, to defensive ECM skills, to drone skills, to active shield skills, to passive shield skills, to active armor skills, to passive armor skills. I could keep going for a while. A long while.
These skills aren't trained to max level over night. To be a 100% perfect Hurricane Battlecruiser pilot would take several years of training all the possible skills for all the possible equipment that you could use on a Hurricane. You can be effective in a Hurricane in a few months, but my ten year old character is far better than the average player in the same ship.
You know nothing Jon Snow.
See: Star Fleet Battles, PnP, 1979. But it wasn't an mmorpg. It was a closely related cousin; war gaming.
People keep saying "it should take very long to reach max level, like those games in the old days...."
My question is why do mmorpgs have to be about leveling up?
I played many asian grinders which I have been the highest level characters on the server because I'm addicted, and I kind of understand people do it to progress their characters to be stronger...
But why does it have to be that way. Why can't mmorpg make it easy for people to maximize their character stats and let people play how ever they want? Aka Guild wars? What's wrong with that?
EDIT: I logon GW2 and see if I can solo dungeon or boss. Or join a dungeon group to improve my dungeon skills.
I go to pvp to see if I can improve my pvp skills. What does leveling have anything to do with it. It can be about "getting better"at the game. Which is a much more fun of progression. Now to mention you can just play for the social aspect like many of the sandbox games.
......Such a ridiculous question. Challenge?, Competition?, Sense of achievement? Personal glory?, there are many reasons.
Games without levels can give the same amount of satisfaction. "Mine Craft" for example, can give a sense of achievement (especially after completing an exceptionally difficult piece of red stone machinery). Another example is "Call Of Duty", which you can derive a sense of competition from (and twitch skillz). Why ask for the reason neither of these games have a traditional level up system in them? They are their own breed, and have different aims.
The code of the pessimistic loner: "We unpopular loners are realists, who follow the three non- popular principles: Not having any (Hope), Not making any (Gaps in your heart); And not giving into (Sweet talk)".
My question is why do mmorpg have to be about leveling up?
1. Easier to code as a developer.
2. Constant gratification.
Players that level up and are constantly awarded by going up 1 level are more eager to continue to do the same for the next 'rush'. (and thus keep playing and paying money)
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
My question is why do mmorpg have to be about leveling up?
1. Easier to code as a developer.
2. Constant gratification.
Players that level up and are constantly awarded by going up 1 level are more eager to continue to do the same for the next 'rush'. (and thus keep playing and paying money)
Isn't that normal though? "Nothing ever comes to one, that is worth having, except as a result of hard work" - Booker T. W.
Being rewarded for your efforts is a part of life. As for leveling being the only driving force to keep me playing.....well, for me that is not true. If I believe a MMORPG has a weak plot, lousy combat mechanics, dated graphics or uncontrolled botting, I'm gone. The monetary system can be a turn off as well (but that is rarely the case).
The code of the pessimistic loner: "We unpopular loners are realists, who follow the three non- popular principles: Not having any (Hope), Not making any (Gaps in your heart); And not giving into (Sweet talk)".
People keep saying "it should take very long to reach max level, like those games in the old days...."
My question is why do mmorpg have to be about leveling up?
I played many asian grinders which I have been the highest level characters on the server because I'm addicted, and I kind of understand people do it to progress their characters to be stronger...
But why does it have to be that way. Why can't mmorpg make it easy for people to maximize their character stats and let people play how ever they want? Aka Guild wars? What's wrong with that?
RPGs need progression.
Leveling and progression are two different things.
Progression easily translates into Levels. Without Levels, you may have Progression through Building Skills. Skill-Building and Leveling are in fact the same thing, but presented in different ways.
The only way that this statement is true, is semantically. Otherwise these two progression systems play out entirely differently in practice.
Leveling based systems give you a certain amount of XP in order to obtain your next level. Upon obtaining this level the character is presented with a handful of pre-determined options for progressing the class. (I would use the word character, but levels and classes are so tied together in modern MMORPG's that they might as well be double strands of DNA.) These options never change and quite often there is one progression path out of the 2-3 provided which is quite clearly better. In the end, all serious players end up with the exact same build.
In skill based leveling, the player determines the makeup of their own character by determining which skills to train. They pick the direction of progressive travel, not the game developer. You can randomly sample 100 players in EVE Online, for instance, and not one of them will have the same set of skills as another. The same could be said for most other skill based MMORPG's.
Yeah but they're both progression systems - effectively a player's story.
The OP's original question wasn't clear on whether he didn't like progression at all or just didn't like the level-based version of it but later posts cleared that up.
Progression in some form will always be a part of RPGs because RPGs are about a story. At the same time there are players who'd don't really want RPGs they want a fantasy FPS - which is fine, just call them RPGs and action RPGs or something to distinguish between the two completely distinct genres.
MMORPG's are about leveling because its popular, expected and makes content easier to control. Meaning you make game with levels you can easily funnel quest and experience to match up with the players advancement.
RPG's are not defined by leveling. They're defined by the story whether created by the developers or the players themselves and character advancement. Leveling is one form of a character advancement.
UO had skill based advancement where you gained skills by doing things. Some games you get experience from killing and quest and apply it to skills. Some games have levels that are not artificial modifiers/barriers but grant points to put into skills and stats. You have games that are time based advancement. You could have a game where advancement was based solely on item/powers acquisition.
Well LOTRO is also a MMORPG & is the exeption of the rule. LOTRO have levels but is not about leveling. There are many side progression some more important than leveling. Also it is very strong about the social aspect & none competitive relations between players.
I would say because they are rpg's. And rpg's typically involve progression of some kind becauseit's the easiest way to tell a story abd behind immersed in your character. You see them grow from the orphaned farm boy to the savior or the universe.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
If people don't want "progression" Why go against the grain and try and inject rpg staples into mmorpgs?
Just go the action adventure root, Pick a character and go at it. Have a set list of skills a character can do and abandon the progression there by normalizing characters.
In regards to "Why do content"?:
Planetside 2 is a great example of people doing stuff just for fun, a merry go round of people shooting each other for hours with no meaningful reward outside of certs.
Surely it wouldn't be that hard to devise an massivly multiplayer action adventure game based on "fun"?
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
I spend a lot of time in GW2 doing dungeons either soloing or in groups. I could spend a whole day just trying to kill a dungeon boss solo.
People spend countless hours in raids "trying to take out big boss".
People spend hours trying to master their skill in pvp.
Those people arn't putting in effort? You mean grinding level is putting in effort?
I get what you are saying. I spend a huge amount of time just grinding level to get stronger too.
But quite honestly, most of the fun time I have in mmorpg is when I maxed my stats and focusing on "getting better at the game skill wise".
Leveling as progression is just a shallow part of the game play to me. I remember many mmorpg where when I hit maxed level, or highest rank, I immediately quit the game. Because deep down I know I'm just exhausting myself to get stronger, because that's all I can think of.
Players Handbook, page 6, sub section (Levels)
Level Typically, a character starts at 1st level and advances in level by adventuring and gaining experience points (XP). A 1st-level character is inexperienced in the adventuring world, although he or she might have been a soldier or a pirate and done dangerous things before. Starting off at 1st level marks your character’s entry into the adventuring life. If you’re already familiar with the game, or if you are joining an existing D&D campaign, your DM might decide to have you begin at a higher level, on the assumption that your character has already survived a few harrowing adventures. Record your level on your character sheet. If you’re starting at a higher level, record the additional elements your class gives you for your levels past 1st. Also record your experience points. A 1st-level character has 0 XP. A higher-level character typically begins with the minimum amount of XP required to reach that level (see “Beyond 1st Level” later in this chapter).
This all started from here.
I definitely agree with the op's point about advocating for more horizontal progression. And GW1 did this incredibly well. The hunt for new skills that you actually had to complete content to get to, and especially elite skills that were only accessible from boss kills, was a great incentive. The skill build system that they used kept me constantly theorycrafting new builds that I would mule over in my head at work, just so I could rush home and try them out. That and the content itself was typically very good and wasn't just a bunch of fetch quests, or kill 10 of these. Basically every mission was a 4-6-8-12 man dungeon. As much as I like GW2, I really wish it was a little more like GW1.
I'm not so much a fan of the gear treadmill. I dislike it even more than the level treadmills. GW1 also had a really good answer to that, with their weapon modification system. Finding max damage weapons was common, it was all about finding them and then slapping the right mods on it that you would salvage from other weapons, and then making sure that they were compatible with your build stats for the build you were attempting. You would often have to have different weapon sets that you would swap to depending on the build to get the most out of them.
AH, but there was progression. IF you want to make a game that doesn't have progression, that is great. Don't call it a RPG. Come up with a new term for it or just call it a game. There shouldn't be a problem with that.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
MMOAdventure-Platformer.
The MMORPG specifically is an online version of the Pen&Paper / Tabletop RPGs, whereas Leveling is not necessarily what either is about. P&P / TT RPGs and by extension, MMORPGs, are about Progression. Said Progression is a matter of following a character through some series of episodes, through some series of seasons, whereas you get to make that character's decisions. Said Progression is about storylines of the world in which the character exists and the characters themselves.
Progression easily translates into Levels. Without Levels, you may have Progression through Building Skills. Skill-Building and Leveling are in fact the same thing, but presented in different ways. Given Progression in either sense for an MMORPG, just does not seem to be an MMORPG without it, you see a lot of Leveling-based MMO-MMORPGs. The main reason for this if I had to guess, is because it is easier to balance a Level-based MMO-MMORPG than it is to balance a Skill-Building MMO-MMORPG (and most companies can not even get Level-based MMO-MMORPGs balanced correctly).
The only way that this statement is true, is semantically. Otherwise these two progression systems play out entirely differently in practice.
Leveling based systems give you a certain amount of XP in order to obtain your next level. Upon obtaining this level the character is presented with a handful of pre-determined options for progressing the class. (I would use the word character, but levels and classes are so tied together in modern MMORPG's that they might as well be double strands of DNA.) These options never change and quite often there is one progression path out of the 2-3 provided which is quite clearly better. In the end, all serious players end up with the exact same build.
In skill based leveling, the player determines the makeup of their own character by determining which skills to train. They pick the direction of progressive travel, not the game developer. You can randomly sample 100 players in EVE Online, for instance, and not one of them will have the same set of skills as another. The same could be said for most other skill based MMORPG's.
Actually, the idea that Leveling is somehow different from Skill Building, that is semantics. Any leveling system can be translated into a skill building system, and vice versa. Skill Building also has experience points, whether or not they are outright displayed.
When I play level-based systems, I tend to find ways of building my character differently than what "the norm" is all doing (and I do tend to catch crap from other players about building differently). Deciding how to do that is first a matter of recognizing the strengths of why that "norm" is being used by everyone. The second part of building differently, is to find ways of building other advantages compared to that "norm," particularly advantages that "norm" can not achieve. The third part of building differently, is a matter of learning how that different build plays, knowing strengths and weaknesses (like any build).
For skill-based systems, you will notice that no matter how much a player attempts to imagine their own unique character, characters will also fall into what skills are best with other particular skills. Beyond this, attempting to build skills "all over the map," can make you a jack of all trades and a master of none. Generally, characters are still quite noticeably all the same, given different "class" type similarities or exactnesses. So the end result of both level based and skill based games, usually is that the majority of characters are carbon copies of everyone else. I am usually one of the very few that break that trend (and even then, not with all of my characters), so I tend to notice that sort of stuff (as I also happen to be one of the people that inspects everyone else, which many seem against doing).
As far as EVE goes, everyone is pretty much what ship they fly. Ships are like some outfit that determines their "class" that can be taken off and a different one put on. EVE has some great ideas that I saw, and that was definitely one of those.
I quite the game when I've done most of the things I've wanted to do. Which may or may not include leveling to max. It depends if work is equal to reward. Most of the time I explore the game to mid level and leave. A very few I really enjoy and stay.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
An MMO shouldn't have skills or levels, and a set amount of HP, mana (if it has magic) and stamina points.If there are skills, then content is trivilized and never a challenge again. If there are levels, content is outleveled and never a challenge again. If you get too much HP, you are just a health sponge. Its not realistic to get tons of stamina as you progress through a game, that doesn't happen in real life and mana is just mana.
An MMO should only have items, and (if it has magic) spells to learn. Skills and levels trivilize content. If an MMO has no skills or levels, then content will never get old or outdated and even "newbie" content will always be a challenge to someone playing for a long time.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
I already said that the only way these two are similar is in the semantics.
You're also not looking deeply enough into game design if you really believe that any leveling system can be translated into a skill building system. Trying to translate WoW or SWTOR from a leveling system to a skill based system would change the entire game from the ground up. Every single aspect of these games are based around the tightly controlled level and class systems.
Give people the ability to put skill points into any skill tree they want, as you would have in games like EVE, Darkfall or Perpetuum, and the entire fabric of the game would dissolve. Raids, which depend on carefully controlled classes, would be a cakewalk
Oh, you're that special snowflake that always brings a sub-optimal build to a raid while claiming that you're the only person with special insight into the class.
Sorry buddy, but you really don't know more about the Tauren Shaman or Jedi Vigilant Guardian than other top level players have already figured out from hundreds of hours of testing builds.
However, if you really like figuring out a character and playing it differently than other players, then I suggest you try Age of Conan. The only meter in the game is a DPS meter which is widely regarded as terrible for judging a players effectiveness in an encounter. All of the raid mechanics in AoC are server-side and hidden from the players. This means that six different Guardians can show up to tank a boss with six different builds, and as long as they can hold aggro, then no one cares because it's not possible to prove the "optimal build" in AoC with math.
As someone who predominantly plays skill based games, this is so far off base that it makes me wonder if you've ever installed one much less played one. I mean, I literally just told you that if you were to randomly pull 100 character sheets in EVE, then no two would look alike, and you're response is "dey all looka alike".
Can you pull 100 random character sheets in EVE Online? Sure can. Right here. Want a random sample? Just review the "recently added pilots" list. Compare their character sheets. Show me any two with the same exact skills at the same exact levels, and yes, the levels matter a lot. Especially the Spaceship Command skills.
This is 100% ignorance.
When I fly a Hurricane class Battlecruiser, I will have a different set of skills with that same exact ship as 100 other players; probably more considering the hundreds of variables.
Dozens of skills effect every ship that you crawl into from the basic ship skill, to fitting skills, to energy management skills, to navigation skills, to gunnery skills, to missile skills, to capacitor warfare skills, to offensive ECM skills, to defensive ECM skills, to drone skills, to active shield skills, to passive shield skills, to active armor skills, to passive armor skills. I could keep going for a while. A long while.
These skills aren't trained to max level over night. To be a 100% perfect Hurricane Battlecruiser pilot would take several years of training all the possible skills for all the possible equipment that you could use on a Hurricane. You can be effective in a Hurricane in a few months, but my ten year old character is far better than the average player in the same ship.
You know nothing Jon Snow.
Not true, gear-less MMOs have existed that functioned quite well.
Gear is one of the most common progression carrots because it's so easy on the development team.
See: Star Fleet Battles, PnP, 1979. But it wasn't an mmorpg. It was a closely related cousin; war gaming.
Nerdy in the extreme.
......Such a ridiculous question. Challenge?, Competition?, Sense of achievement? Personal glory?, there are many reasons.
Games without levels can give the same amount of satisfaction. "Mine Craft" for example, can give a sense of achievement (especially after completing an exceptionally difficult piece of red stone machinery). Another example is "Call Of Duty", which you can derive a sense of competition from (and twitch skillz). Why ask for the reason neither of these games have a traditional level up system in them? They are their own breed, and have different aims.
The code of the pessimistic loner: "We unpopular loners are realists, who follow the three non- popular principles: Not having any (Hope), Not making any (Gaps in your heart); And not giving into (Sweet talk)".
1. Easier to code as a developer.
2. Constant gratification.
Players that level up and are constantly awarded by going up 1 level are more eager to continue to do the same for the next 'rush'. (and thus keep playing and paying money)
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Isn't that normal though? "Nothing ever comes to one, that is worth having, except as a result of hard work" - Booker T. W.
Being rewarded for your efforts is a part of life. As for leveling being the only driving force to keep me playing.....well, for me that is not true. If I believe a MMORPG has a weak plot, lousy combat mechanics, dated graphics or uncontrolled botting, I'm gone. The monetary system can be a turn off as well (but that is rarely the case).
The code of the pessimistic loner: "We unpopular loners are realists, who follow the three non- popular principles: Not having any (Hope), Not making any (Gaps in your heart); And not giving into (Sweet talk)".
Leveling and progression are two different things.
Yeah but they're both progression systems - effectively a player's story.
The OP's original question wasn't clear on whether he didn't like progression at all or just didn't like the level-based version of it but later posts cleared that up.
Progression in some form will always be a part of RPGs because RPGs are about a story. At the same time there are players who'd don't really want RPGs they want a fantasy FPS - which is fine, just call them RPGs and action RPGs or something to distinguish between the two completely distinct genres.
MMORPG's are about leveling because its popular, expected and makes content easier to control. Meaning you make game with levels you can easily funnel quest and experience to match up with the players advancement.
RPG's are not defined by leveling. They're defined by the story whether created by the developers or the players themselves and character advancement. Leveling is one form of a character advancement.
UO had skill based advancement where you gained skills by doing things. Some games you get experience from killing and quest and apply it to skills. Some games have levels that are not artificial modifiers/barriers but grant points to put into skills and stats. You have games that are time based advancement. You could have a game where advancement was based solely on item/powers acquisition.