I'd rather they remove the MMO portion. I do like a lot of players but I don't want to play with them all, I want them there to create the allusion of a living breathing world. As long as that world is BIG and OPEN, then I don't care for the MMO portion, but I do care for the RPG part very much. And last time I looked the origins of RPG's were never about the destination, it was about the journey. Hence developers need to eschew the reliance on quick leveling to reach endgame mantra and get back to creating vibrant worlds where exploration and progression matter.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
To me the developers have laid down the foundation for the rpg portion of all titles currently out. imho a huge portion of the responsibilities lies with the players making games feel immersive.
Things as simple as choosing a name that reflects the games history and lore can make a difference, but there are so many who choose names like Chexmix or Poptarman. So, I believe we as the players have removed the RPG from MMORPGs and it's our responsibility to put it back.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
You left out the fact that players tend to tell you HOW to speck your character, HOW to play your character and WHAT to wear for your character.
I would liek to see the days come back were a choice of character made on creation would be simply -
Warrior - Tank 1hand weapons+shield only or DPS 2handed weapons only
Healer - plain and simple healing
Wizard - Ice wizard, fire Wizard
Hunters (aka Rangers/Archers/Rogues) - Ranged (high damage but not much close quarter dps) OR high close quarter combat or mixture of both, not very high at either end but best of both worlds.
All you have to do is place extra STAT points and make a choice of what sort of spell, attack, heal you are going to have (some maybe AoE some single target, some Dots/poison etc.
Not this oh look i have a healer but i will speck it tank or dps or stay healing, makes the whole point of making a specific character null n void. may as well just have the 1 and be done with it. dont give it name like templar, necromancer, wizard, soerceror etc when that thesedays means jack and sh@t
Originally posted by SavageHorizon Last mmo that had the "RPG" in it was lotro.
Was it really? I never tried that game but this makes me want to.
If you follow the main story quests and don't get bogged down too much in grinding the (forgotten what they were called) and/or doing every side quest then yeah - pretty cool single player middle earth RPG with great scenery (if you're a Tolkein fan).
IIRC it could be quite challenging too if you did it that way and followed the chain without grinding levels in between (but it's been a while so I may be wrong on that).
Roleplaying is far more than that, it is about planning and executing operations with your friends. It is about plotting and outsmarting enemies, solving puzzles and playing someone often very different from yourself.
It is about loot, but far more than that. Heck, I played a werewolf character for 5 IRL years and never picked up any kind of loot there, it is also about growing as a character, about gaining power (and it might not just be physical power but political as well).
Roleplaying is about working together for a greater goal, in combat and none combat.
I do agree that MMOs could use far more roleplaying elements, right now MMOs are still where "Chainmail" was before D&D was invented or at best where D&D was just after it was created. Pen and paper RPGs have evolved a lot since and a lot of those new ideas could add a lot to the MMOs.
Most people here tend to think at soloplayer computer RPGs when they hear roleplaying but just like MMOs are they nowhere near pen and paper games, they just focus on other aspects then MMOs.
For one thing do I think players needs to run more things instead of npcs. My changeling character in an antique dealer as cover and income, he is far more (including former SAS sniper) while in most MMOs your character usually just is a fighting class.
We do have seen a few MMOs with player run stores and even a few where players can have some actual power but not much in recent years.
UO and Meridian 59 where made by pen and paper players who tried to recreate part of the feeling you get when you play as well as implementing features from them. I think modern MMO devs should do the same, play some P&P and getting ideas from them. Now, those games were based on really early P&P games and the P&P games have evolved a lot since.
It is really sad that the first try in recent years (WoDO) got cancelled during development, but that doesn't mean the idea was bad, just that CCP for some reason thought Dust would sell better.
Sadly, it looks like most mmorpg players prefer to grind and raid. Those two replaced the Role Playing part of the name. Now MMORPG stands for Massively Multiplayer Online Raid-Playing Grind.
There are no MMORPGs, we only have MMOs. Period. The ones who have a good RPG storytelling(SWTOR, TWS, GW2, a couple of others) made it feel like a single player experience outside of the mmo. I like them but they should have been more integrated with the mmo part of the game IMO.
If its online with many people, its an mmo. True RPGs are only the single player ones... unfortunately. MMO doesnt mean grind/raid/endgame, that is just a cheap way to keep people investing time/money on a game. That? a good reason why i stick to story/lore driven mmos (and the only reason i play WoW, its lore).
You forgot one if not the best ones the secret world.
Sadly, it looks like most mmorpg players prefer to grind and raid. Those two replaced the Role Playing part of the name. Now MMORPG stands for Massively Multiplayer Online Raid-Playing Grind.
There are no MMORPGs, we only have MMOs. Period. The ones who have a good RPG storytelling(SWTOR, TWS, GW2, a couple of others) made it feel like a single player experience outside of the mmo. I like them but they should have been more integrated with the mmo part of the game IMO.
If its online with many people, its an mmo. True RPGs are only the single player ones... unfortunately. MMO doesnt mean grind/raid/endgame, that is just a cheap way to keep people investing time/money on a game. That? a good reason why i stick to story/lore driven mmos (and the only reason i play WoW, its lore).
You forgot one if not the best ones the secret world.
I think he tried but misspelled it as TWS instead of TSW
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Sadly, it looks like most mmorpg players prefer to grind and raid. Those two replaced the Role Playing part of the name. Now MMORPG stands for Massively Multiplayer Online Raid-Playing Grind.
There are no MMORPGs, we only have MMOs. Period. The ones who have a good RPG storytelling(SWTOR, TWS, GW2, a couple of others) made it feel like a single player experience outside of the mmo. I like them but they should have been more integrated with the mmo part of the game IMO.
If its online with many people, its an mmo. True RPGs are only the single player ones... unfortunately. MMO doesnt mean grind/raid/endgame, that is just a cheap way to keep people investing time/money on a game. That? a good reason why i stick to story/lore driven mmos (and the only reason i play WoW, its lore).
You forgot one if not the best ones the secret world.
TSW do have some interesting ideas, I just wish they would have gone full out Delta green. They were clearly inspired by it, but I just love the mix between Cthulhu mythos and special forces.
Still, it was a fresh breath. Too bad it didn't sell better at launch because it is a good game.
It's the new generation, it is like they have no imagination so they have a hard time accepting role playing.
Like Elder Scrolls Online, the game was made to role play in yet the developers won't let people do it and allow people to ruin the experience of role playing in it
Originally posted by Thupli I think until they get good algorithms for procedurally generated dungeons and good AI, the OP will remain disappointed.
Too many databases these days.
Ps- good user made dungeons could work too with good AI.
First of all are there more things to RPGing than dungeons.
Secondly, there are other ways to solve it besides using an advanced AI.
For one thing could you have guilds building a dungeon together and getting a score based on how good it is and how many none guild players die in it. With PvE they would just hire in monsters while with PvP they could possess bosses or even involve their characters. The hard thing is really to make a system that awards the right loot depending on the traps and monsters and that is pretty easy still. Members could craft traps, breed mosters and so on.
A dungeon created by a single player like in Neverwinter tend to be abused however. Guild created ones could be the same if not implemented right, preferably would the dungeon only be accessable by players from other servers or even regions. Maybe with function for officers similar to the GM function in Sword coast legends, with possibility to spawn monsters and extra traps for points based on how well the adventurers do.
An AI would be sweet of course, there are a couple of people working on it but we wont see it for the next 5-10 years.
I don't like labels but after seeing so much of these game designs they really are all games "on rails" "connect the dots".
What really turns me off is seeing how developers try to manipulate their audience and mislead them with their content and PR marketing.To me it all looks like a mess just quickly tossed together to call it a game...here now buy it,give us your money.
I know i will rustle some jimmies but i need to make a point.
Look at a game like GW2.They create some super mario world looking map,seriously wtf does that have to do with the LORE of the game?How about some jump map/timed map seriously again wtf does that have to do with LORE?
You see game developers are just tossing any kind of nonsense into our games and have the gall to call it content.When i see stuff like that it tells me right away,they did NOT plan the game out at all and are just winging it as they go.We can again point to GW2 "Living Story" in other words they never had the LORE or story planned but just want to wing it as they go...."well hey it's a living story" ya ok you got me fooled .../sigh.
I could write a darn novel on every game where it looks like nothing but tossed in mobs,tie in some quests and call it a day,everywhere i look it is VERY lazy work by developers.There excuse....too costly,well then don't make games if you can't afford to do them justice,i don't want assembly line games,i want to play a game that was made with passion,a game the developer should be proud of.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
What is a Role Playing Game? It is a game where you assume the role of a character which has both features and limitations based on class/race etc etc, but most especially "LORE".
The story is bound by the games Lore as are the characters you choose to play.
As are appearences of armor, weapons, buildings, lands, dungeons, etc etc.
Your character advances based on experience earned thru actions such as fighting, exploring, crafting etc etc.
Duh...
However, Role Playing does NOT include going to the same dungeon over and over with hopes to get an entire set of equipment or a specific item, what it does MEAN is that you go to a dungeon and experience its mystery, flavor, thrill, chills, fun, excitement, and when you finish it you say to yourself, "Wow that was epic"! And yet are relieved to have gotten out alive.
It is NOT, going back over and over and over again KNOWING what is behind every turn and doorway, and it is NOT having some player tell everyone what to do based on their one hundred times exploring it over and over.
In other words its NOT supposed to be GRINDING AND FARMING.
INSTEAD, you cant wait to get to that next point of interest, whether it be a dungeon of some sort, fort, cave, location, tower...whatever...you cannot wait to get to that next really cool place. You got that awesome sword in the last dungeon, gee I wonder what I will get in the next one. The KEY word is "Wonder".
Can you imagine if Tolkien wrote Lord of the Rings or Robert E Howard or George Lucas just as examples, wrote their stories the way MMOs have and are written and designed?
Frodo: "Gee Sam, finding my sword "Sting" in that cave was great, lets go back and see what else we can find".
Sam: "But Mr Frodo, we cleaned it all out"!
Frodo: 'Don't worry Sam, didnt you know the Elves come by that cave every day just to drop off more loot? They are rich!"
Or worse:
Isildur: "I got your ring! I got your ring!"
Sauron: "Not fair"!
Eru: "I agree....Do over!"
Sauron: "Yes!"
Isildur: "Doh!"
But in all seriousness, what we want is a feeling of accomplishment without the farming and without the grind.
The priority of the dungeon is to provide a challenging yet FUN environment, where you are required to think and strategize your next moves, and NOT just run thru the boring parts because you were here a hundred times before and just want your stuff...NO! It is the combination of a one time epic event that combines lore, immersion, story, thrills, chills, fun, excitement, reward and a sense of accomplishment.
So for example, in the story you hear about this old wizards tower blah...blah...blah...you and your friends ask around and eventually find clues, say for example an old map...then in the candle light and atmosphere of a tavern or your hideout, you examine the map and PLAN.
That was a simple example, yet you get the point.
In addition, this was just one example..there are tons of others.
In a nutshell, every single "MMO" lacks the essential RPG elements that started the whole Dungeon and Dragons popularity of RPGs and games.
If Devs and publishers would just abandon the EQ and WoW clone mentality and design MMORPGs instead of MMOs, with a purpose beyond gear gating, seasons, that are all just designed to slow you down and eat up your subscription time or force you to buy stuff from their real money or token store, etc.
Come on! All of you are SMART! Dont you realize when a game like WoW is just slowing your progress down to eat up your subscription time, and/or a game like Neverwinter stumps you until you spend real money on something to get you over the hump?
Please...some Dev or publisher, please make a great quality MMORPG..not an MMO, but a MMORPG, that is not P2W, a grind, or a farm fest, that is deep and immersive, and is fun.
Designed to be fun and make you money the old fashion way, and not the new way of gimmicks, tricks and scams or worse..
I agree.
Elminster's Ecologies, came out as a way to give DM's more original locations to send adventuring parties to in the Forgotten Realm's setting. Same with Draconomicon. But it's harder to do in a MMO especially when there is a Spoiler Patrol hunting the error in any game. And even in those days, the company selling the product was out of it's mind in the cost it charged, but then again, we DnD nerds were a rarer breed, and no one can deny the aesthetic quality of every guide book or manual ever offered, so they had artists, writers, and other brainstorming geeks to pay.
My group of 10 friends played on weekends and ordered pizza in a bong smoke filled basement, where we used medicinal properties in the bud to keep us from murdering one another over saving throws and other arguments, but we always did this.
We grind-ed and the two DM's we had (rotated so no two were the same DM's for each new campaign) set up zones with tons of pre-rolled randoms to slaughter just to get us ready for the next hard fort or dungeon we had to raid.
I think a happy medium is required in MMORPG's. There should be item drops, but frequent, so its not just about the items you get grinding. P.S., (We didn't have many drops in our PnP sessions, we mostly had to use shops to get desired gear but the drops were coins of copper, silver, gold.)
So, if you are going to restrict drops to dungeons, make them boss drops that always drop. Whether it's one or several items he carries, they should all drop.
If you are going to restrict farm NPC's to drops, make the fighting worth it by offering good gear at the shops (not the stores for real money) and make the fights worth the time by giving good exp and loot for the coffers.
We only wanted to risk 1 raid in those days until our clerics were lvl 9's. And sometimes 2 to retrieve a dead companions body or his gear. But you have to lvl build before the hard fights, and as you addressed, we grinded a lot because we never really knew how hard the fight was going to be!
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
lol Yeah, basically it was like that back in the day!
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
You left out the fact that players tend to tell you HOW to speck your character, HOW to play your character and WHAT to wear for your character.
I would liek to see the days come back were a choice of character made on creation would be simply -
Warrior - Tank 1hand weapons+shield only or DPS 2handed weapons only
Healer - plain and simple healing
Wizard - Ice wizard, fire Wizard
Hunters (aka Rangers/Archers/Rogues) - Ranged (high damage but not much close quarter dps) OR high close quarter combat or mixture of both, not very high at either end but best of both worlds.
All you have to do is place extra STAT points and make a choice of what sort of spell, attack, heal you are going to have (some maybe AoE some single target, some Dots/poison etc.
Not this oh look i have a healer but i will speck it tank or dps or stay healing, makes the whole point of making a specific character null n void. may as well just have the 1 and be done with it. dont give it name like templar, necromancer, wizard, soerceror etc when that thesedays means jack and sh@t
Lol actually allot of mmorpgs have come to that, swtor has came down to advanced classes with barely any choices because of this crap, yea its good but at the same time less choices. People always feel there opinion is more important then yours so they feel a desire to tell you what to do, I always tell them ill do whatever I want, then you will be kicked, then I will be kicked I say, and hopefully find people will do things differently.
Originally posted by SavageHorizon RPG & console! What are you rabbiting on about. How does one effect the other,one is a machine and the other a gaming gera that you find across all formats.
We were discussing, in early 1996, exactly what effect a "console" approach to RPGs (UO was Coming Real Soon at that particular time) would have on RPGs.
Graphical approach forces literal approach--if you can't see it, you can't roleplay with it (predicted and happened), You're limited to the objects that devs have modeled (yep).
You're stuck with the developer's short list of coded and animated emotes, rather than thousands of verbs and modifiers (predicted and happened).
ERP is inevitable (yep).
Your "box" to operate within ('don't play outside the box') is restricted by the developer's lore, and the lore of graphical games will be woefully shallow (yep, and more shallow still with every passing year).
Scorn heaped on roleplayers and roleplaying (yep, with exclamation points).
Lack of support for roleplayers from the makers of these games (yep).
---
It's wrong to "blame" consoles for any of these results, but they were all predicted and all came to pass, as a result of switching to limited graphical interface engines.
Originally posted by SavageHorizon RPG & console! What are you rabbiting on about. How does one effect the other,one is a machine and the other a gaming gera that you find across all formats.
We were discussing, in early 1996, exactly what effect a "console" approach to RPGs (UO was Coming Real Soon at that particular time) would have on RPGs.
Graphical approach forces literal approach--if you can't see it, you can't roleplay with it (predicted and happened), You're limited to the objects that devs have modeled (yep).
You're stuck with the developer's short list of coded and animated emotes, rather than thousands of verbs and modifiers (predicted and happened).
ERP is inevitable (yep).
Your "box" to operate within ('don't play outside the box') is restricted by the developer's lore, and the lore of graphical games will be woefully shallow (yep, and more shallow still with every passing year).
Scorn heaped on roleplayers and roleplaying (yep, with exclamation points).
Lack of support for roleplayers from the makers of these games (yep).
---
It's wrong to "blame" consoles for any of these results, but they were all predicted and all came to pass, as a result of switching to limited graphical interface engines.
"What happened to the RPG?" MMOs did.
Well that is only part of the problem (and Meridian was already in beta early '96 BTW) because older MMOs actually had more roleplaying than modern MMOs have even if you actually can make a lot more things possible with modern graphics and high budgets.
The real problem is that MMOs get more and more railroaded, they usually only have a single path you must follow totoday.
Meridian 59 had some quests but mostly you were more or less freely moving around and interacted with the world and other players anyway you wanted if you were high enough levelwise for it.
Now the games hold your hand all the way and usually telling you exact where to go next and what to do at any given moment. And the worst thing is that many players prefer it that way.
I been playing roleplaying games since I was a kid ('84 to be exact) and MMOs since Meridian came out in '96. If you ask me what roleplaying is the short answer is about freedom and experiencing a different world through someone elses eyes, someone you created.
And it actually isn't that hard to create a world and letting people interacting with it the way they like, it was possible in 1996 and it should be easier to make it even more free today.
The real question is if the players today would enjoy that or if they just want to do what they are told. The publishers funding MMOs all think the latter.
One more thing: just because you create an interactive worl instead of a set path doesn't mean you can't have plenty of lore, pen and paper RPGs have way more lore and yet usually offers close to unlimited possibilities only restricting you through your characters skills and attributes. And it is not about themeparks or sandboxes either, M59 was a themepark and UO a sandbox, yet both offered you this freedom.
OP you have to make your own RPG, I have 6 characters in SWTOR, when I feeling like been this bad Sith Lord and I jump on it and dont stop until couple hours later filled with the sense of something accomplished, I play the RPG in my mind. If I find a good guild who loves RPG I join it, or find a server which does RPG. It is up to you if you seek you shall find.
[quote] [i]Originally posted by UnleadedRev[/i] [b]RPG = Role Playing Game[/b] [b]MMO = Massive Multiplayer Online[/b] [b]MMO+RPG=MMORPG[/b] [b]What is a Role Playing Game? It is a game where you assume the role of a character which has both features and limitations based on class/race etc etc, but most especially "LORE".[/b] [b]The story is bound by the games Lore as are the characters you choose to play.[/b] [b]As are appearences of armor, weapons, buildings, lands, dungeons, etc etc.[/b] [b]Your character advances based on experience earned thru actions such as fighting, exploring, crafting etc etc.[/b] [b]Duh...[/b] [/quote]
What is a Role Playing Game? It is a game where you assume the role of a character which has both features and limitations based on class/race etc etc, but most especially "LORE".
The story is bound by the games Lore as are the characters you choose to play.
As are appearences of armor, weapons, buildings, lands, dungeons, etc etc.
Your character advances based on experience earned thru actions such as fighting, exploring, crafting etc etc.
Duh...
This is what many of us would like to see. But unfortunately a game like that would lack replay value, games like that tend to be open-ended, people would finish the game quickly and that does not benefit the longevity of the game.
Of course the devs can continuously provide additional contents but even that is not an efficient way of prolonging the player involvement with the game.
Bottomline is, every MMORPG developer/publisher would like to maximize the replay value of the game with its limited content, thus increasing player retention and of course, profit.
Roleplaying is far more than that, it is about planning and executing operations with your friends. It is about plotting and outsmarting enemies, solving puzzles and playing someone often very different from yourself.
It is about loot, but far more than that. Heck, I played a werewolf character for 5 IRL years and never picked up any kind of loot there, it is also about growing as a character, about gaining power (and it might not just be physical power but political as well).
Roleplaying is about working together for a greater goal, in combat and none combat.
I do agree that MMOs could use far more roleplaying elements, right now MMOs are still where "Chainmail" was before D&D was invented or at best where D&D was just after it was created. Pen and paper RPGs have evolved a lot since and a lot of those new ideas could add a lot to the MMOs.
Most people here tend to think at soloplayer computer RPGs when they hear roleplaying but just like MMOs are they nowhere near pen and paper games, they just focus on other aspects then MMOs.
For one thing do I think players needs to run more things instead of npcs. My changeling character in an antique dealer as cover and income, he is far more (including former SAS sniper) while in most MMOs your character usually just is a fighting class.
We do have seen a few MMOs with player run stores and even a few where players can have some actual power but not much in recent years.
UO and Meridian 59 where made by pen and paper players who tried to recreate part of the feeling you get when you play as well as implementing features from them. I think modern MMO devs should do the same, play some P&P and getting ideas from them. Now, those games were based on really early P&P games and the P&P games have evolved a lot since.
It is really sad that the first try in recent years (WoDO) got cancelled during development, but that doesn't mean the idea was bad, just that CCP for some reason thought Dust would sell better.
MMORPGs are RPGs in the exact same way that videogame RPGs have been RPGs. So claiming they "could use far more roleplaying elements" is a bit of a murky statement, since they're full of every RPG element that videogame RPGs ever had.
Not many videogame RPGs over the years attempted to go in the improv / collaborative storytelling direction that tabletop RPGs went, and those that have tried it haven't done it well. I don't think it's automatically a doomed direction -- someone might eventually nail the formula down -- but I do think it's silly to imply videogame RPGs somehow aren't RPGs. We've been calling them RPGs for over 30 years, so there's not much you can do to imply they're somehow less RPG than tabletop RPGs.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by mayito7777 OP you have to make your own RPG, I have 6 characters in SWTOR, when I feeling like been this bad Sith Lord and I jump on it and dont stop until couple hours later filled with the sense of something accomplished, I play the RPG in my mind. If I find a good guild who loves RPG I join it, or find a server which does RPG. It is up to you if you seek you shall find.
You are confusing RP with RPG. Role playing is that act of playing a role. RPG means Role Playing Game which is a game built around immersive properties meant to draw a playing into a living, breathing world. An RPG enhances the ability to RP but they are NOT the same thing. An RPG is created by design and adds both realism (to varying degrees) and social construct to a game. Both of these properties stripped from most modern mmos.
You do not have to RP in an RPG but it is far easier to gain a sense of immersion within an RPG. This is done by not cutting corners and making a game so casual friendly that it becomes nearly a solo game.
In the early 2000's after the success of some of the early mmorpgs the industry got together and coined MMO by dropping the RPG. This was to expand the concept and capitalize off it's success. At the very moment the MMORPG died. That was the moment the industry stole the niche concept (largely built off of RPG origins in the west at least. RPG players simply wanted a game where more people could play at once) in order to apply the "massively" tech to all sorts of games and introduce it to a much wider audience. The founding principle which led to the the creation of mmorpgs was abandoned and taken over by monetization. How many players could be attracted and how much money earned drove development. Sure companies must profit but community building and the mmorpg as a social hobby was abandoned. MMOs became just like all other video games ... driven by mass marketing and profit margins. Great for share holder style business but terrible for a hobby game.
I've said this before many times: It is like Games Workshop changing how Warhammer plays because they want a larger audience. They would have to completely abandon their core audience to do it and they are not that stupid. WotC did however with D&D 4e and the backlash was so bad that they nearly lost their entire market share to Pathfinder on their OWN Open Game License! They sling shot back to 5e so fast that they all but abandoned 4e in order to gain back their audience (Sword Coast Legends is a result of this). MMOs are now going through the same thing. What an MMO is now is nothing like where it began and a core audience now feels left out with the lack of games they prefer.
Personally I am not too worried as the video game market is so large that games will always come out that fit your style (in slow order). For smaller hobbies like RPGs and board games a dramatic shift in direction can obliterate a genre.
So asking for the RPG to be brought back to MMO is asking for a totally different style of game to be brought back on the market. It is for a totally different type of player. A very niche market. This is fine but it goes against the core principle of big business. It is a hobby market and hobby developers MUST take this genre back. It will likely always be an indie market.
Comments
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
To me the developers have laid down the foundation for the rpg portion of all titles currently out. imho a huge portion of the responsibilities lies with the players making games feel immersive.
Things as simple as choosing a name that reflects the games history and lore can make a difference, but there are so many who choose names like Chexmix or Poptarman. So, I believe we as the players have removed the RPG from MMORPGs and it's our responsibility to put it back.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
You left out the fact that players tend to tell you HOW to speck your character, HOW to play your character and WHAT to wear for your character.
I would liek to see the days come back were a choice of character made on creation would be simply -
Warrior - Tank 1hand weapons+shield only or DPS 2handed weapons only
Healer - plain and simple healing
Wizard - Ice wizard, fire Wizard
Hunters (aka Rangers/Archers/Rogues) - Ranged (high damage but not much close quarter dps) OR high close quarter combat or mixture of both, not very high at either end but best of both worlds.
All you have to do is place extra STAT points and make a choice of what sort of spell, attack, heal you are going to have (some maybe AoE some single target, some Dots/poison etc.
Not this oh look i have a healer but i will speck it tank or dps or stay healing, makes the whole point of making a specific character null n void. may as well just have the 1 and be done with it. dont give it name like templar, necromancer, wizard, soerceror etc when that thesedays means jack and sh@t
If you follow the main story quests and don't get bogged down too much in grinding the (forgotten what they were called) and/or doing every side quest then yeah - pretty cool single player middle earth RPG with great scenery (if you're a Tolkein fan).
IIRC it could be quite challenging too if you did it that way and followed the chain without grinding levels in between (but it's been a while so I may be wrong on that).
Roleplaying is far more than that, it is about planning and executing operations with your friends. It is about plotting and outsmarting enemies, solving puzzles and playing someone often very different from yourself.
It is about loot, but far more than that. Heck, I played a werewolf character for 5 IRL years and never picked up any kind of loot there, it is also about growing as a character, about gaining power (and it might not just be physical power but political as well).
Roleplaying is about working together for a greater goal, in combat and none combat.
I do agree that MMOs could use far more roleplaying elements, right now MMOs are still where "Chainmail" was before D&D was invented or at best where D&D was just after it was created. Pen and paper RPGs have evolved a lot since and a lot of those new ideas could add a lot to the MMOs.
Most people here tend to think at soloplayer computer RPGs when they hear roleplaying but just like MMOs are they nowhere near pen and paper games, they just focus on other aspects then MMOs.
For one thing do I think players needs to run more things instead of npcs. My changeling character in an antique dealer as cover and income, he is far more (including former SAS sniper) while in most MMOs your character usually just is a fighting class.
We do have seen a few MMOs with player run stores and even a few where players can have some actual power but not much in recent years.
UO and Meridian 59 where made by pen and paper players who tried to recreate part of the feeling you get when you play as well as implementing features from them. I think modern MMO devs should do the same, play some P&P and getting ideas from them. Now, those games were based on really early P&P games and the P&P games have evolved a lot since.
It is really sad that the first try in recent years (WoDO) got cancelled during development, but that doesn't mean the idea was bad, just that CCP for some reason thought Dust would sell better.
You forgot one if not the best ones the secret world.
I think he tried but misspelled it as TWS instead of TSW
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
TSW do have some interesting ideas, I just wish they would have gone full out Delta green. They were clearly inspired by it, but I just love the mix between Cthulhu mythos and special forces.
Still, it was a fresh breath. Too bad it didn't sell better at launch because it is a good game.
Too many databases these days.
Ps- good user made dungeons could work too with good AI.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
It's the new generation, it is like they have no imagination so they have a hard time accepting role playing.
Like Elder Scrolls Online, the game was made to role play in yet the developers won't let people do it and allow people to ruin the experience of role playing in it
Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event
4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.
http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/
Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!
First of all are there more things to RPGing than dungeons.
Secondly, there are other ways to solve it besides using an advanced AI.
For one thing could you have guilds building a dungeon together and getting a score based on how good it is and how many none guild players die in it. With PvE they would just hire in monsters while with PvP they could possess bosses or even involve their characters. The hard thing is really to make a system that awards the right loot depending on the traps and monsters and that is pretty easy still. Members could craft traps, breed mosters and so on.
A dungeon created by a single player like in Neverwinter tend to be abused however. Guild created ones could be the same if not implemented right, preferably would the dungeon only be accessable by players from other servers or even regions. Maybe with function for officers similar to the GM function in Sword coast legends, with possibility to spawn monsters and extra traps for points based on how well the adventurers do.
An AI would be sweet of course, there are a couple of people working on it but we wont see it for the next 5-10 years.
I don't like labels but after seeing so much of these game designs they really are all games "on rails" "connect the dots".
What really turns me off is seeing how developers try to manipulate their audience and mislead them with their content and PR marketing.To me it all looks like a mess just quickly tossed together to call it a game...here now buy it,give us your money.
I know i will rustle some jimmies but i need to make a point.
Look at a game like GW2.They create some super mario world looking map,seriously wtf does that have to do with the LORE of the game?How about some jump map/timed map seriously again wtf does that have to do with LORE?
You see game developers are just tossing any kind of nonsense into our games and have the gall to call it content.When i see stuff like that it tells me right away,they did NOT plan the game out at all and are just winging it as they go.We can again point to GW2 "Living Story" in other words they never had the LORE or story planned but just want to wing it as they go...."well hey it's a living story" ya ok you got me fooled .../sigh.
I could write a darn novel on every game where it looks like nothing but tossed in mobs,tie in some quests and call it a day,everywhere i look it is VERY lazy work by developers.There excuse....too costly,well then don't make games if you can't afford to do them justice,i don't want assembly line games,i want to play a game that was made with passion,a game the developer should be proud of.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I agree.
Elminster's Ecologies, came out as a way to give DM's more original locations to send adventuring parties to in the Forgotten Realm's setting. Same with Draconomicon. But it's harder to do in a MMO especially when there is a Spoiler Patrol hunting the error in any game. And even in those days, the company selling the product was out of it's mind in the cost it charged, but then again, we DnD nerds were a rarer breed, and no one can deny the aesthetic quality of every guide book or manual ever offered, so they had artists, writers, and other brainstorming geeks to pay.
My group of 10 friends played on weekends and ordered pizza in a bong smoke filled basement, where we used medicinal properties in the bud to keep us from murdering one another over saving throws and other arguments, but we always did this.
We grind-ed and the two DM's we had (rotated so no two were the same DM's for each new campaign) set up zones with tons of pre-rolled randoms to slaughter just to get us ready for the next hard fort or dungeon we had to raid.
I think a happy medium is required in MMORPG's. There should be item drops, but frequent, so its not just about the items you get grinding. P.S., (We didn't have many drops in our PnP sessions, we mostly had to use shops to get desired gear but the drops were coins of copper, silver, gold.)
So, if you are going to restrict drops to dungeons, make them boss drops that always drop. Whether it's one or several items he carries, they should all drop.
If you are going to restrict farm NPC's to drops, make the fighting worth it by offering good gear at the shops (not the stores for real money) and make the fights worth the time by giving good exp and loot for the coffers.
We only wanted to risk 1 raid in those days until our clerics were lvl 9's. And sometimes 2 to retrieve a dead companions body or his gear. But you have to lvl build before the hard fights, and as you addressed, we grinded a lot because we never really knew how hard the fight was going to be!
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612
Yeah, it is kinda off topic but OPS LOTR refferences forced me to post it...
"Investment firms do not have that outlook on life. They need to know there is not only a return on their investment but also a solid profit at the end of it." tawess-
Lol actually allot of mmorpgs have come to that, swtor has came down to advanced classes with barely any choices because of this crap, yea its good but at the same time less choices. People always feel there opinion is more important then yours so they feel a desire to tell you what to do, I always tell them ill do whatever I want, then you will be kicked, then I will be kicked I say, and hopefully find people will do things differently.
We were discussing, in early 1996, exactly what effect a "console" approach to RPGs (UO was Coming Real Soon at that particular time) would have on RPGs.
Graphical approach forces literal approach--if you can't see it, you can't roleplay with it (predicted and happened), You're limited to the objects that devs have modeled (yep).
You're stuck with the developer's short list of coded and animated emotes, rather than thousands of verbs and modifiers (predicted and happened).
ERP is inevitable (yep).
Your "box" to operate within ('don't play outside the box') is restricted by the developer's lore, and the lore of graphical games will be woefully shallow (yep, and more shallow still with every passing year).
Scorn heaped on roleplayers and roleplaying (yep, with exclamation points).
Lack of support for roleplayers from the makers of these games (yep).
---
It's wrong to "blame" consoles for any of these results, but they were all predicted and all came to pass, as a result of switching to limited graphical interface engines.
"What happened to the RPG?" MMOs did.
I'm enjoying that comic.
Well that is only part of the problem (and Meridian was already in beta early '96 BTW) because older MMOs actually had more roleplaying than modern MMOs have even if you actually can make a lot more things possible with modern graphics and high budgets.
The real problem is that MMOs get more and more railroaded, they usually only have a single path you must follow totoday.
Meridian 59 had some quests but mostly you were more or less freely moving around and interacted with the world and other players anyway you wanted if you were high enough levelwise for it.
Now the games hold your hand all the way and usually telling you exact where to go next and what to do at any given moment. And the worst thing is that many players prefer it that way.
I been playing roleplaying games since I was a kid ('84 to be exact) and MMOs since Meridian came out in '96. If you ask me what roleplaying is the short answer is about freedom and experiencing a different world through someone elses eyes, someone you created.
And it actually isn't that hard to create a world and letting people interacting with it the way they like, it was possible in 1996 and it should be easier to make it even more free today.
The real question is if the players today would enjoy that or if they just want to do what they are told. The publishers funding MMOs all think the latter.
One more thing: just because you create an interactive worl instead of a set path doesn't mean you can't have plenty of lore, pen and paper RPGs have way more lore and yet usually offers close to unlimited possibilities only restricting you through your characters skills and attributes. And it is not about themeparks or sandboxes either, M59 was a themepark and UO a sandbox, yet both offered you this freedom.
want 7 free days of playing? Try this
http://www.swtor.com/r/ZptVnY
[quote] [i]Originally posted by UnleadedRev[/i] [b]RPG = Role Playing Game[/b] [b]MMO = Massive Multiplayer Online[/b] [b]MMO+RPG=MMORPG[/b] [b]What is a Role Playing Game? It is a game where you assume the role of a character which has both features and limitations based on class/race etc etc, but most especially "LORE".[/b] [b]The story is bound by the games Lore as are the characters you choose to play.[/b] [b]As are appearences of armor, weapons, buildings, lands, dungeons, etc etc.[/b] [b]Your character advances based on experience earned thru actions such as fighting, exploring, crafting etc etc.[/b] [b]Duh...[/b] [/quote]
This is what many of us would like to see. But unfortunately a game like that would lack replay value, games like that tend to be open-ended, people would finish the game quickly and that does not benefit the longevity of the game.
Of course the devs can continuously provide additional contents but even that is not an efficient way of prolonging the player involvement with the game.
Bottomline is, every MMORPG developer/publisher would like to maximize the replay value of the game with its limited content, thus increasing player retention and of course, profit.
MMORPGs are RPGs in the exact same way that videogame RPGs have been RPGs. So claiming they "could use far more roleplaying elements" is a bit of a murky statement, since they're full of every RPG element that videogame RPGs ever had.
Not many videogame RPGs over the years attempted to go in the improv / collaborative storytelling direction that tabletop RPGs went, and those that have tried it haven't done it well. I don't think it's automatically a doomed direction -- someone might eventually nail the formula down -- but I do think it's silly to imply videogame RPGs somehow aren't RPGs. We've been calling them RPGs for over 30 years, so there's not much you can do to imply they're somehow less RPG than tabletop RPGs.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You are confusing RP with RPG. Role playing is that act of playing a role. RPG means Role Playing Game which is a game built around immersive properties meant to draw a playing into a living, breathing world. An RPG enhances the ability to RP but they are NOT the same thing. An RPG is created by design and adds both realism (to varying degrees) and social construct to a game. Both of these properties stripped from most modern mmos.
You do not have to RP in an RPG but it is far easier to gain a sense of immersion within an RPG. This is done by not cutting corners and making a game so casual friendly that it becomes nearly a solo game.
In the early 2000's after the success of some of the early mmorpgs the industry got together and coined MMO by dropping the RPG. This was to expand the concept and capitalize off it's success. At the very moment the MMORPG died. That was the moment the industry stole the niche concept (largely built off of RPG origins in the west at least. RPG players simply wanted a game where more people could play at once) in order to apply the "massively" tech to all sorts of games and introduce it to a much wider audience. The founding principle which led to the the creation of mmorpgs was abandoned and taken over by monetization. How many players could be attracted and how much money earned drove development. Sure companies must profit but community building and the mmorpg as a social hobby was abandoned. MMOs became just like all other video games ... driven by mass marketing and profit margins. Great for share holder style business but terrible for a hobby game.
I've said this before many times: It is like Games Workshop changing how Warhammer plays because they want a larger audience. They would have to completely abandon their core audience to do it and they are not that stupid. WotC did however with D&D 4e and the backlash was so bad that they nearly lost their entire market share to Pathfinder on their OWN Open Game License! They sling shot back to 5e so fast that they all but abandoned 4e in order to gain back their audience (Sword Coast Legends is a result of this). MMOs are now going through the same thing. What an MMO is now is nothing like where it began and a core audience now feels left out with the lack of games they prefer.
Personally I am not too worried as the video game market is so large that games will always come out that fit your style (in slow order). For smaller hobbies like RPGs and board games a dramatic shift in direction can obliterate a genre.
So asking for the RPG to be brought back to MMO is asking for a totally different style of game to be brought back on the market. It is for a totally different type of player. A very niche market. This is fine but it goes against the core principle of big business. It is a hobby market and hobby developers MUST take this genre back. It will likely always be an indie market.
You stay sassy!