Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Whoever removed RPG from MMORPGs, please put it back!
UnleadedRev
Member UncommonPosts: 568
RPG = Role Playing Game
MMO = Massive Multiplayer Online
MMO+RPG=MMORPG
What is a Role Playing Game? It is a game where you assume the role of a character which has both features and limitations based on class/race etc etc, but most especially "LORE".
The story is bound by the games Lore as are the characters you choose to play.
As are appearences of armor, weapons, buildings, lands, dungeons, etc etc.
Your character advances based on experience earned thru actions such as fighting, exploring, crafting etc etc.
Duh...
However, Role Playing does NOT include going to the same dungeon over and over with hopes to get an entire set of equipment or a specific item, what it does MEAN is that you go to a dungeon and experience its mystery, flavor, thrill, chills, fun, excitement, and when you finish it you say to yourself, "Wow that was epic"! And yet are relieved to have gotten out alive.
It is NOT, going back over and over and over again KNOWING what is behind every turn and doorway, and it is NOT having some player tell everyone what to do based on their one hundred times exploring it over and over.
In other words its NOT supposed to be GRINDING AND FARMING.
INSTEAD, you cant wait to get to that next point of interest, whether it be a dungeon of some sort, fort, cave, location, tower...whatever...you cannot wait to get to that next really cool place. You got that awesome sword in the last dungeon, gee I wonder what I will get in the next one. The KEY word is "Wonder".
Can you imagine if Tolkien wrote Lord of the Rings or Robert E Howard or George Lucas just as examples, wrote their stories the way MMOs have and are written and designed?
Frodo: "Gee Sam, finding my sword "Sting" in that cave was great, lets go back and see what else we can find".
Sam: "But Mr Frodo, we cleaned it all out"!
Frodo: 'Don't worry Sam, didnt you know the Elves come by that cave every day just to drop off more loot? They are rich!"
Or worse:
Isildur: "I got your ring! I got your ring!"
Sauron: "Not fair"!
Eru: "I agree....Do over!"
Sauron: "Yes!"
Isildur: "Doh!"
But in all seriousness, what we want is a feeling of accomplishment without the farming and without the grind.
The priority of the dungeon is to provide a challenging yet FUN environment, where you are required to think and strategize your next moves, and NOT just run thru the boring parts because you were here a hundred times before and just want your stuff...NO! It is the combination of a one time epic event that combines lore, immersion, story, thrills, chills, fun, excitement, reward and a sense of accomplishment.
So for example, in the story you hear about this old wizards tower blah...blah...blah...you and your friends ask around and eventually find clues, say for example an old map...then in the candle light and atmosphere of a tavern or your hideout, you examine the map and PLAN.
That was a simple example, yet you get the point.
In addition, this was just one example..there are tons of others.
In a nutshell, every single "MMO" lacks the essential RPG elements that started the whole Dungeon and Dragons popularity of RPGs and games.
If Devs and publishers would just abandon the EQ and WoW clone mentality and design MMORPGs instead of MMOs, with a purpose beyond gear gating, seasons, that are all just designed to slow you down and eat up your subscription time or force you to buy stuff from their real money or token store, etc.
Come on! All of you are SMART! Dont you realize when a game like WoW is just slowing your progress down to eat up your subscription time, and/or a game like Neverwinter stumps you until you spend real money on something to get you over the hump?
Please...some Dev or publisher, please make a great quality MMORPG..not an MMO, but a MMORPG, that is not P2W, a grind, or a farm fest, that is deep and immersive, and is fun.
Designed to be fun and make you money the old fashion way, and not the new way of gimmicks, tricks and scams or worse..
Comments
want 7 free days of playing? Try this
http://www.swtor.com/r/ZptVnY
Actually yes, in fact I really enjoyed my time in SWTOR playing a Sith when it first came out.
Unfortunately, despite becoming a Sith Lord as well....heck we are all Sith Lords of some sort...well uh there is the problem.
Johnny: "Mommy, Sally is a Sith Lord and I am not, I wanna be a Sith Lord too!"
Mom: "Did you do this that and the other"?
Johnny: "Nooo"
Mom: 'Well then how do you excpect to be a Sith Lord?"
Johnny: 'Cuz everybody else is"!
I don't see what running the same dungeon twice has to do with putting the "RPG" back into mmo's.Good timing, OP. I was just saying on another thread how some people posting are console gamers at heart; whereas I am an RPG'r at heart. I think we have as MMOs today, hybrid games with elements of both. I prefer to keep them separate.
/Edit. OP, I agree with you that grinding may not RPG ish. I think we can classify games on a sliding scale; on the left side is console and on the right side is RPG.
I'd say everquest rates close to the RPG side of the scale; and today's MMOs scale more towards the console gamer side.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Was it really? I never tried that game but this makes me want to.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
RPG & console! What are you rabbiting on about.How does one effect the other,one is a machine and the other a gaming gera that you find across all formats.
I'll admit I was spoiled with the idea that Star Wars Galaxies would be the footprint of mmoRPG's
To me it's one of the only mmoRPG's I have played.
SinglePlayerRPG: NPC's make the game world feel alive.
Everything you see NPC's do in singleplayer games should be things players should be able to do.
mmoRPG: Players should be making the world feel alive, that isn't happening anymore with most of today's mmo's but then again it seems today's players expect npc's to make the world feel alive.
I also feel that the lack of none combat professions is missing which can create atleast for me a much better RPG atmosfeer.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Sadly, it looks like most mmorpg players prefer to grind and raid. Those two replaced the Role Playing part of the name. Now MMORPG stands for Massively Multiplayer Online Raid-Playing Grind.
There are no MMORPGs, we only have MMOs. Period. The ones who have a good RPG storytelling(SWTOR, TWS, GW2, a couple of others) made it feel like a single player experience outside of the mmo. I like them but they should have been more integrated with the mmo part of the game IMO.
If its online with many people, its an mmo. True RPGs are only the single player ones... unfortunately. MMO doesnt mean grind/raid/endgame, that is just a cheap way to keep people investing time/money on a game. That? a good reason why i stick to story/lore driven mmos (and the only reason i play WoW, its lore).
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Clever :-)
For the OP, I'm mixed. I don't think RPG in the single player game context, and RPG in a non-coop multiplayer game context are the same thing.
SP and Coop RPGs are storyline games.
In some MMORPGs, they try to reproduce the SP/Coop experience and do so with at least limited success if not more.
In other MMORPGs, gameplay revolves more heavily around world simulation, with little emphasis on storyline.
Even though the two are different, I consider both as RPGs. It's still a player controlling a character, with the character being an inhabitant of a virtual environment.
One area where I do find RPG lacking relates directly to players who seem to not understand that 'the player' is not a 34 mage, but rather it's 'the character' who is. It's like they try to transplant themselves into the game rather than understand that they are a person playing a character.
But that's just me nit-picking details. They can blab all they want, I just turn off general chat.
The only way for you to Put the RPG back to the MMORPG genre is to eliminate the whole leveling by killing mobs. Eliminate Gear Grind but instead reward with new shiny items that boosts Player Ego and skill
One method that I thought of after some serious thinking is to introduce Quest Bulletins and Hunts in one of my concept ideas threads.
But people was quick to point out flaws in my proposed concept. I will list those flaws after I give you a slight summary.
See my idea was simple, the difficulty of the Dungeons and Hunts is based on the numbers of participants and the number caps off at a certain point.
And each dungeon and hunts is randomly generated so its never the same and its on a timer for lets say every xx : 15 minutes. Each dungeon has special mechanics that you need to overcome that changes. Like two passages so you need to split up, interact with wires and open latches at specific times to avoid traps. So its always a new story that you are creating for yourself in success or in defeat.
Then in pvp you would have maze runners, everyone that participated runs into an random generated maze trying to kill each other and reach the center to collect a flag. And each team have one character that stands above the maze trying to direct others to the center and avoid traps and other characters.
Instead of weapons and gear, you are rewarded with materials to craft and upgrade your current weapons and gear. So that you design your own gear. For example, in the hunt its to kill a dragon. The head of the dragon goes to the Hunting Lodge, but the dragon scales and bones and blood are given equally to everyone. But the heart and other valuable loot are to be rolled for. Then those can be used to boost your gear for new colors. The scales can be added to your gear so you look like you are wearing dragon skin and the blood can be used to dye your gear. Cosmetics but also added to resistances or abilities. And everything can be traded or sold in the market.
The flaws is that
1) to generate an balanced dungeon its not currently possible with the technology that we have today.
2) People wants to play their game on their own time, they don't want to miss out on any content that they paid for. If they missed out on the Dragon hunt, they want to do it as well , just at 3 am in the morning when they are available. And they want to experience it just like everyone else did. Regardless if its all random generated,
3) If other players saw that I am wearing Dragon scales that is shiny and blue, they want to eventually be able to get it too.
These are flaws that is why we will never have MMORPG, everyone want to be able to be exactly the same as everyone else. Regardless if they will ever actually achieve it or even attempt to get it. They just want the ability to eventually do it if they want to . And they want to do it at the most convenient time that they have without having to follow another person's schedule.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
This... if you dont get it no one can help you. If a company tried to make enough content you never needed to do a dungeon but once, we could not afford the monthly fee. MMOs have always had some type of grind, faction, loot, crafting etc. Single player RPGs have what you are looking for.
Well... yes and no.
Most themepark MMOs have been developed as essentially single player games where you're supposed to politely ignore the fact that the things you do reset for the next guy to do and there are no permanent outcomes.
And it's not as if the developers themselves don't see that forced suspension of disbelief as a problem and try to counteract it with their newish story telling device, "before and after phasing."
Sandboxier MMOs don't suffer from that problem quite so much because they mostly have emergent player-created stories and events - but their lore and story content is of course lacking as a result.
I mean... I know you're a fan of EQN, yet here you are, piling on the OP because he's making fun of the more idiotic aspects of MMORPGs that are supposed to be tolerated. One of the biggest design goals of EQN (whether it will still happen or not is irrelevant - the important bit is that they thought MMORPGs needed shaking up and this was one of their ways) was precisely to tackle this problem with NPCs that reacted individually to different players, their own lives would dictate what they needed players to do, if anything and could easily just tell you to go jump off a bridge if they didn't like you. Add to that their changes to mob spawns and migrations that if left unchecked could permanently reduce villages to rubble.
In other words, they were trying to address exactly what the OP is talking about: bringing MMORPGs out of their static kludgy single playerfor everyone beginnings where we all ignore the lack of real change, and design one taking into account fully their multiplayer nature and having fights and events be "one-offs."
That's what an MMORPG should be like: if a player kills Shazam the Evil Wizard, well he stays dead and you who came along after that will just have to find something else to do. The challenge of course is in auto-generating enough "other things" for everyone to feel like they have challenging adventures to do too. No small task... but then, that is why EQN's early vision generated so much buzz and early praise: because they were attempting to do just that.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
There lies the problem, if you paid the same amount of money as the guy that killed shazam the evil wizard, why don't I get the chance to kill Shazam the evil Wizard. Why am I locked out of the content that so many got to experience. Just because I started the MMO late, I got punished for it. Therefore why would anyone bother buy the game after the initial launch.
Don't even put the whole early access into it now, those in Early access can kill all the Dungeons mobs so that when its finally launched, every single boss is already dead. So what would you do now?
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
It's only a problem because your assuming that killing Shazam was such an epic thing that it gives that player a huge advantage over those who didn't. A well-designed emergent MMO would constantly provide anyone coming into the game at any time with things to do just as epic as that.
Different bad guy... different place... some solo... some requiring large groups... but always, appropriately rewarding consistent with the effort you put in.
And btw, EQN is not the only one allegedly heading into that less repetitive direction, there are many others trying to do the very same thing.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
ESO, WOW, and GW2 were just as RPG as Mass Effect, Baldur's Gate, and Ultima.
They're all RPGs. The lore goes deeper in some (ESO) than others, but it's not like any of them are lore-free.
If you want a game where you only do the content once, you play a singleplayer RPG. Otherwise due to the nature of group play, you're going to repeat content (because someone in your group needs that quest to go back to Mt Doom, so sorry Samwise we're going back.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
True EQN is trying to do that but even then its still not out, its a concept. I was replying to what we have. I would love for EQN to work out and bring something thats never been done before. I wait hopeful but as to what we have. I was not trying to be glib, its just what is at the moment. If there was a game like he wants, I would be there right now playing it. I think many of us would be lol
The thing is that it doesn't even have to be Epic, as long as certain items was dropped that can only be gotten by killing Shazam the Evil Wizard, even if its an title or an dye stain. If you can't get it 1 year after the game comes out, because it was content that was locked out , someone somewhere will become the vocal majority that will complain 24hr / 7 days a week till the developer change it.
That is the problem.
Sure I like randomized dungeons, and I am not one that said I had to have everything or the ability to get everything that epic dude has. But in an Massive Multiplayer Game, someone somewhere will be yelling and screaming that they couldn't get that item that does nothing but because so and so has it, they need it too.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Yeah well... someone will always scream about anything and everything. I have never seen any MMO feature or change, no matter how good or how trivial that didn't generate QQ threads lol.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED