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Is Star Citizen a Class Action Lawsuit waiting to happen?

luclinraiderluclinraider Member UncommonPosts: 95

Just seeing what people's thought's are.

With the estimated desired refund rate at around 25% according to forum polls, and no refund option offered....along with the fact that technically speaking they are only required to refund the original KS backers if no product is given. The only other option for their other 750k backers.....(Just a guess, I know there's alot of them though :p), is a Class Action Lawsuit to get their money back. 

With all the recent controversy...is there one on the horizon. And if one was to take place, do you think it would sink the project? I am thinking it's a definite yes.....

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Comments

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    I don't think so, there isn't really any ground for a lawsuit unless the game doesn't launch or break factual stated rules.

    There might be a s#¤%storm when the game launches though, many people have spent loads of money on a game that they havn't hardly even seen anything from and that usually leads to dissapointment.

  • ceratop001ceratop001 Member RarePosts: 1,594
    I have a two degrees in Computer Science. I don't have a clue how the law works so I can't give an accurate depiction of how this will turn out. My gut feeling tells me someone is going to jail. It's just a feeling I have and I could be very wrong. I hope I am wrong but this just smells bad. Reminds me on the Enron scandal for some weird reason lol.
    UngoodOdeezee
     
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    At the moment, probably not much chance of a law suit happening, i think realistically we'd have to see 2016 in without further progress being made before even start thinking about lawsuits.image
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,254
    Originally posted by luclinraider

    Just seeing what people's thought's are.

    With the estimated desired refund rate at around 30%-35% according to forum polls, and no refund option offered.... **snip**

    Thou should not believe someones propaganda **cough cough won't mention names, or IT is being summoned ** with respect to polls on the RSI forum. There IS no desired refund rate of 35 %.

    There was a poll on the RSI forum

    https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/271799/are-refunds-for-our-packages-ships-from-cig-now-okay-to-be-requested

    with the question  "Would you like there to be a publically available refund process now, given this latest development?"  and out of the 1173 participants  25.15  % voted YES and  74.85 % voted NO.

    The result from this poll was then intentionally used wrong to imply that 30-35 % of the backers wanted a refund.

     

    About the OP question:  I think NO. In my opinion as long as CIG is working on the game (which can easily be verified) a lawsuit will have little chance in court at this point. Especially as one of the owners of CIG is a lawyer. Delays are normal in the video gaming industry (its even mentioned in the SC TOS that every backer signed) ... and so are flame wars.

     

    Have fun

    Ungood
  • MrSnufflesMrSnuffles Member UncommonPosts: 1,117
    Originally posted by ceratop001
    I have a two degrees in Computer Science. I don't have a clue how the law works so I can't give an accurate depiction of how this will turn out. My gut feeling tells me someone is going to jail. It's just a feeling I have and I could be very wrong. I hope I am wrong but this just smells bad. Reminds me on the Enron scandal for some weird reason lol.

    I am a Comp Sci and BA and i have to fully agree with you. If i look at the transparency of Elite Dangerous (Financial Report) and the humble salary they pay themselves i am impressed.

    I wish CIG would produce a report like this and be accountable. I am pretty sure though that with the salary CR is paying himself and his brother it would cause a huge shit storm from the backers.

    There is a reason why a company would not disclose this information.

    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

    "It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
    - Michael Bitton
    Community Manager, MMORPG.com

    "As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law

    "I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about." 
    - SEANMCAD

    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
  • UnleadedRevUnleadedRev Member UncommonPosts: 568

    PEER PRESSURE...

    I have for one have let every games Dev and/or Publisher that has a Backers/Founders/Early Access , I am interested in, that despite my desire for their products, I refuse to enter any more programs such as these, because of what BS Star Citizen and RSI are pulling.

    If enough of us do that, maybe RSI will cut to the chase and just declare FAILURE so their suits can retire to the mansions and sports cars they bought with our money.

    We are suckers...

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,455
    Originally posted by MrSnuffles
    Originally posted by ceratop001
    I have a two degrees in Computer Science. I don't have a clue how the law works so I can't give an accurate depiction of how this will turn out. My gut feeling tells me someone is going to jail. It's just a feeling I have and I could be very wrong. I hope I am wrong but this just smells bad. Reminds me on the Enron scandal for some weird reason lol.

    I am a Comp Sci and BA and i have to fully agree with you. If i look at the transparency of Elite Dangerous (Financial Report) and the humble salary they pay themselves i am impressed.

    I wish CIG would produce a report like this and be accountable. I am pretty sure though that with the salary CR is paying himself and his brother it would cause a huge shit storm from the backers.

    There is a reason why a company would not disclose this information.

    Exactly and don't forget little sister, she really loves spending the donations. 




  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967

    If people actually read the terms of service on websites and games and actually clicked "I Do NOT Accept" so many things would be better.

    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • ClaiesClaies Member UncommonPosts: 76

    In a few short years we've gone from buying a released game, to pre-ordering a soon to be released game, then to paying to alpha test a game in development, and now have reached the pay for an idea phase.

    If people want to waste their money paying for ideas, they are welcome to do so.  But don't run crying foul when the idea you paid for doesn't happen the way you want.

  • azarhalazarhal Member RarePosts: 1,402

    What would be the reasons for the Class Action Lawsuit?

    They are making the game, already delivered working modules to backers with alpha/beta access and are explaining their progress every months and why they are currently having delays for other modules. Since when is delay in production a reasons for a Class Action Lawsuit?

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,254
    Originally posted by MrSnuffles

    There is a reason why a company would not disclose this information.

    Yes. The reason is :  CIG is a private company not listed on any stock exchange.

    Frontier would NOT disclose their financial data voluntarily - its A LOT OF WORK (many man weeks)  to generate that data, report and figures. But they have to, because they are listed on the London stock exchange. Almost NO company would voluntarily saddle themselves with such a large amount of work unless they have to by law.

    Personally i hope CIG does not waste employee time on generating a 60 page financial leaflet that is not required by law (but only "demanded" by a loudmouth who is a proven internet scourge and  lousy developer that is feuding with Chris Roberts since the 90ies).

    I rather have CIG use that employee time  (man weeks !) to work on the game itself.

     

    Have fun

     

  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    Originally posted by Erillion
    Originally posted by MrSnuffles

    There is a reason why a company would not disclose this information.

    Yes. The reason is :  CIG is a private company not listed on any stock exchange.

    Frontier would NOT disclose their financial data voluntarily - its A LOT OF WORK (many man weeks)  to generate that data, report and figures. But they have to, because they are listed on the London stock exchange. Almost NO company would voluntarily saddle themselves with such a large amount of work unless they have to by law.

    Personally i hope CIG does not waste employee time on generating a 60 page financial leaflet that is not required by law (but only "demanded" by a loudmouth who is a proven internet scourge and  lousy developer that is feuding with Chris Roberts since the 90ies).

    I rather have CIG use that employee time  (man weeks !) to work on the game itself.

     

    Have fun

     

     

    We already know what you would do personally.  You have made it perfectly clear that no matter what CIG and, by extension, Chris Robert's does you will worship him, support him, and follow him to the end.  There are about 3 or 4 of you like that on these forums and no doubt legions more on the RSI forums. [mod edit]

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 5,331
    The Kickstarter funders probably have a case due to the utter failure to meet the timelines promised.  As far as the funding separate from Kickstarter, I have no clue.
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,000
    I believe the only thing CIG could be accused of in such a case would be "liable" 

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by Phry
    At the moment, probably not much chance of a law suit happening, i think realistically we'd have to see 2016 in without further progress being made before even start thinking about lawsuits.image

    Basically this... the way folks act you'd think this game was in development for the greater part of the last 10 years. It's a little over 2 and half years into it's full development, that's hardly enough time to build one of the largest games ever created. even 2016 is pushing it.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    Originally posted by luclinraider

    Just seeing what people's thought's are.

    With the estimated desired refund rate at around 30%-35% according to forum polls, and no refund option offered....along with the fact that technically speaking they are only required to refund the original KS backers if no product is given. The only other option for their other 750k backers.....(Just a guess, I know there's alot of them though :p), is a Class Action Lawsuit to get their money back. 

    With all the recent controversy...is there one on the horizon. And if one was to take place, do you think it would sink the project? I am thinking it's a definite yes.....

    Keep repeating (and embellishing) the allegations that you half-heard and only partially understood and the story will become epic in no time.

     

    There's a vast difference between asking "Should we offer a refund procedure ?" and asking "Do you want a refund ?".

     

    I would always vote "yes" if asked whether there should be a refund procedure. Not because I wanted a refund, but because I think it's a good thing to have some form of reasonable refund policy on any item or service.

     

    So 30% of 1173 forum warriors voted in favour of an expand refund procedure. Apparently the other 974,000 backers had no interest in the discussion...

  • ComanComan Member UncommonPosts: 2,173
    Originally posted by Erillion
    Frontier would NOT disclose their financial data voluntarily - its A LOT OF WORK (many man weeks)  to generate that data, report and figures. But they have to, because they are listed on the London stock exchange. Almost NO company would voluntarily saddle themselves with such a large amount of work unless they have to by law.

     

    Actually whatever ot not the company is publicly they still have to do the work. Only difference is that they do not have to release the information, but if the government comes knocking they still should have proof for all the spending, tax return request, profits, etc. I doubt the govenment is willing to wait "weeks" before recieving the needed papers. 

    Also I hightly doubt a developer has the skill anyway to create a financial report....so you do not have to worry about someone not developing in the meantime...

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,583
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Phry
    At the moment, probably not much chance of a law suit happening, i think realistically we'd have to see 2016 in without further progress being made before even start thinking about lawsuits.image

    Basically this... the way folks act you'd think this game was in development for the greater part of the last 10 years. It's a little over 2 and half years into it's full development, that's hardly enough time to build one of the largest games ever created. even 2016 is pushing it.

    Where is everyone getting the notion this game should be out already? 

  • ComanComan Member UncommonPosts: 2,173
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Phry
    At the moment, probably not much chance of a law suit happening, i think realistically we'd have to see 2016 in without further progress being made before even start thinking about lawsuits.image

    Basically this... the way folks act you'd think this game was in development for the greater part of the last 10 years. It's a little over 2 and half years into it's full development, that's hardly enough time to build one of the largest games ever created. even 2016 is pushing it.

    Because a lot of people believe lots of money is faster development. Not realising that you could just keep hiring developers, but at a certain point the productivity would actually be going down instead of up. Also this is the first time for a lot of people that follow a game from the early stages. I guess most people usually start to follow a game later in the development when things are already a long time underway. 

  • luclinraiderluclinraider Member UncommonPosts: 95

    Changed the 35% to 25%. Was my mistake.

    Still quite a large percentage that is likely close to 250k people wanting their money back.

    But I am not here to spread propaganda, just to see what people are thinking.....I really couldn't care less about SC's rep.

    To be honest I'm still having a blast on GW2 and looking forward to the expansion. Space sim isn't really my thing :P.

    Seem's most of you don't see a lawsuit on the horizon though. Seems good for SC...although I can't help but think it's just cementing the perception that so many studios have, that is, us as the gamers are nothing but idiotic sheep of whom they can treat accordingly.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332

    Seeing that he hired a lot of employees and is using at least 3-4 businesses to make this game,there is absolutely nothing to prove he is not attempting to make this game.IMO he could stop doing anything right now and enough paper trail would show this was an attempt and that is all he is bound to.

    The whole USERS side of the Kickstarter information is non complete very  shotty work,obviously done that way to mislead people.I am sure there is a more binding contract between Kickstarter and the developer but of course neither care of you and your money,that would be strictly between them.

    There are only two avenues,PROVE there was no or lack of attempt to make this game and show something of concrete evidence that he made promises.I am certain by this point he is too smart to leave either hole open,so he is basically home free living easy street.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by Coman
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Phry
    At the moment, probably not much chance of a law suit happening, i think realistically we'd have to see 2016 in without further progress being made before even start thinking about lawsuits.image

    Basically this... the way folks act you'd think this game was in development for the greater part of the last 10 years. It's a little over 2 and half years into it's full development, that's hardly enough time to build one of the largest games ever created. even 2016 is pushing it.

    Because a lot of people believe lots of money is faster development. Not realising that you could just keep hiring developers, but at a certain point the productivity would actually be going down instead of up. Also this is the first time for a lot of people that follow a game from the early stages. I guess most people usually start to follow a game later in the development when things are already a long time underway. 

    For sure, look at how long Development has been on Fallout 4. They started right after Fallout 3. And just recently showed it off. That game isn't close to the scope SC is claiming.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    Originally posted by ceratop001
    I have a two degrees in Computer Science. I don't have a clue how the law works so I can't give an accurate depiction of how this will turn out. My gut feeling tells me someone is going to jail. It's just a feeling I have and I could be very wrong. I hope I am wrong but this just smells bad. Reminds me on the Enron scandal for some weird reason lol.

    Nah no jail time ,remember that guy who stole money from Cheyenne Mountain entertainment,he had been caught previous doing the same thing.Nothing happened to him and obviously people kept giving him money in trust.Well i believe he did have to go to court but unless you have a ton of proof nothing happens.

    I have a pretty good idea why MOST laws you would expect to be better are not.It is because our governments are often involved in most scandals,like receiving donations for favors.SO no way is Government going to have a lot of laws surrounding free money,handouts/donations.The biggest donation to the government in my region also happened to be the guy who ran the most old age homes and you can only get those when approved by the politicians.

    These businesses pay taxes to the government,they pay license fees,they pay copyright fees,law backs them up.Government cares when businesses go under,they don't much care about the individual.Matter of fact governments help  keep failing businesses alive,you think they would help you out,not a chance.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 21,580

    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    The Kickstarter funders probably have a case due to the utter failure to meet the timelines promised.  As far as the funding separate from Kickstarter, I have no clue.

    Well that would be most Kickstarter and private projects then. I haven't read Kickstarter rules and regs regarding this. Is that completion date a promise or an estimation? Every single project I've back (mostly music) have been pushed back from 3 - 9 months or more.

    For example, Dragon Fin Soup just sent out an update saying they are moving the release to winter of this year just because Sony wants PS4 release to coincide with the PC release.

    Planet Explorers still hasn't released and that is quite old for a single player game. They have however, provided pre-release versions on Steam so the game can be played.

    The gray area is what delays are considered fair, legal, and reasonable. When do those delays cross a legal line with regards to crowdfunding. The focus seems unfairly spotlighted on this project because people with little to no clue believe that having $85M in cash makes a project go faster. The Miracle Man Month has soundly disproved that more resources means faster production in the software field.

    Originally posted by luclinraider

    Changed the 35% to 25%. Was my mistake.

    Still quite a large percentage that is likely close to 250k people wanting their money back.

    But I am not here to spread propaganda, just to see what people are thinking.....I really couldn't care less about SC's rep.

    To be honest I'm still having a blast on GW2 and looking forward to the expansion. Space sim isn't really my thing :P.

    Seem's most of you don't see a lawsuit on the horizon though. Seems good for SC...although I can't help but think it's just cementing the perception that so many studios have, that is, us as the gamers are nothing but idiotic sheep of whom they can treat accordingly.

    Wrong again. 25% of the people believe there should be a refund process. That doesn't mean that all of them want a refund and their accounts closed. They just believe buyers should have that option. I think people should have that option up to a certain period of time, say 30 to 60 days. After that they've had more than enough time to consider their decision.
    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • BluddwolfBluddwolf Member UncommonPosts: 355

    Although I am a backer of SC, I have not been following very much lately.  However I think this issue of delivery of services based on a KS is an interesting one.  In another KS project I'm following there are similar issues, and I have this question:

     

    if if a developer runs a Kickstarter and promises to deliver an MMO, but the number of subscribers never breaks 600, and the developer themselves had boasted that the game was being developed in anticipation of about 50k subscribers, would that constitute a broken obligation?

    Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....

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