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Beta's are not Demo's

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Comments

  • ElementalistElementalist Member Posts: 8

    I totally agree with Creolink. Are you all trying to redefine what a Alpha is and what a Beta is in a software product life cycle ?

    Alpha is barely a tech demo, a prototype, to test and shake concepts.

    Beta is supposed to be a finished product TO BE TESTED, with maybe still some content missing, but with all the game mechanics and foundation in place.

    Any of you ever tried other software Beta product ? They are supposed to work as in their final stage, but have not been tested and are being tested. SO there are bugs, but the software must be USABLE.

    This doesnt qualify as a BETA at all ! Stop trying to find excuses, this is an under-development title, about 40% done at most.

  • CreollinkCreollink Member Posts: 12



    Originally posted by Copeland

    Well i expected the childrens flames. Exactly as i expected too LOL. But i'm glad to see theres a large portion of this community that has a good grasp of what TESTING means. Hopefully the kids will think about it a bit and start to understand in time. I know we'll have to deal with it forever but every once in a while we have to educate the community about what is expected from them.





    Yes, there is a large portion of this community that has a good grasp of what BETA TESTING means.  And you sure aren't one of them.   You tried to come off as some sort of authority about this subject.  Instead you end up making yourself look like a third-grader preaching about software development.  Stop this practice of blaming the gamers for reacting negatively to your low-quality game.

    So after a few people exposed how little you know about this subject matter, you come back here and are too afraid to back up your earlier comments.  Instead,  you use the old school yard tactic of calling people names.  You even backed off of your earlier pontifications about what BETA TESTING means.  You now use only the word TESTING.  Nice try. 

    I really like your post:  "every once in a while we have to educate the community about what is expected from them."

    So now you've annointed yourself as the Socrates to the gaming community?

    LMAO !!

    LMAO !!!

    What are you going to educate us about?  About how using bad graphics is less cumbersome than using good graphics? LOL!

    The only one who needs education is you, Socrates.  A game company needs to be educated about what is expected of them.  And that is to produce GOOD games.  Not to produce low-quality games and then whine about how Beta-testers are expecting too much from you.

    Sweet dreams, Socrates.

  • JorevJorev Member Posts: 1,500



    Originally posted by Xira

    If the MMORPG company treates the beta as a demo, why shouldn't we?



    True.

    And the real problem is not that players treat beta's as demo's, but that game companies rely on free labor to beta their product which is why so many games are released unfinished and buggy.

    You get what you pay for.

    image
    "We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
    Brad McQuaid
    Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
    Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
    www.vanguardsoh

  • ElementalistElementalist Member Posts: 8

    Well said Creo !

    I bet their next move will be to educate us "kids" where we must spend a $10 monthly fee.

    Well, we will need a brainwash this time !!

     

  • MelficeMelfice Member Posts: 45

    If it was a closed beta, then yeah, I would actually pay attention to the bugs, exploits, etc. But that's why I don't sign up for closed betas, because i don't care about those things. All I want to do is play the game. So, if I can play a game for free, then why not. I am, after all, a gamer. If you want to spend your time searching for problems then go right ahead. But I've done too many open betas to know that little changes from open beta to launch.

  • CherrypieyumCherrypieyum Member Posts: 1
    It's actually pretty smart to use us as beta testers.  How else can they test every aspect of the game within a month to find the bugs?  That is if people actually report the bugs.  image
  • ScarisScaris Member UncommonPosts: 5,332

    I really think you need to learn what beta means conceptually for programming. If you think that beta means "we are gonna make it look good later, we just wanna test some features for the moment" then you are seriously mistaken. Once a game hits beta it should be 98% DONE. There should be NO large changes in the game anymore. It seems you suffer from beleiving the trend that MMO companies are trying to push onto the public now that beta for MMO's should be different then any other software type. That way they can push the product out much faster and start making capitol without the game being finished. Which is usually the case with an MMO. "If it compiles ship it" and "ship it now and we will fix it later" seem to come to mind.

    I have tested many types of beta software, never have I seen the expecations so low as they are with beta MMO's. Customers are actually willing to pay for the software in an unfinished state, and ontop of it pay a monthly useage fee.

    Beta testing is for final bug testing so the product can go to sale! Your dam right you should be able to judge a product by its beta. If they can't handle the beta then I would have very little confidence in their ability to manage a final product and maintain it for years to come. The graphics and every other system should be DONE by the time it hits beta otherwise you CANNOT properly test what SHOULD be the near final product going out by the end of the beta. If they are not near that stage it is an ALPHA or not even worthy our a release category yet.

    As for people bashing betas, I don't ever want to see that go away. These are companies making product. Frivalous entertainment for us to invest in if we feel so inclined. This isn't somone making cracks on a friend, family member or other person, just a game. I want alot of critisism so it can be the absolute best product it can be by the time it hits the shelves. And a company isn't going to be very inclined to make it better if we are all holding hands across the globe in harmony awaiting it, now are they?

    And you are wrong, MANY companies use betas now as more then testing phases. They use them to promote pre-orders, drum up hype, AND when no NDA exhists to advertise the game. If a beta was truly JUST for testing like you say then the MMO industry would hardly have the betas they do now. They would be quiet, by invite only and very possibly completely unadvertised. I think you better open your eyes alittle and quit being so niave about the market. Many companies use their betas as long term advertising. Guild Wars and WoW are perfect examples of that. Guild Wars had their entire customer base before the game was ever released.

    - Scaris

    "What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World

  • anarchyartanarchyart Member Posts: 5,378
    /bump people need to read this. I'm gonna bump it mercilessly.

    image
  • jonsnow13jonsnow13 Member Posts: 67
    you know at first I felt bad for bashing that game like I did... now that you guys finally came to my defense, I see a lot of other people saw it the same way as me...  woohoo!  I wasn't just a jerk :P
  • CopelandCopeland Member Posts: 1,955


    Originally posted by jonsnow13
    you know at first I felt bad for bashing that game like I did... now that you guys finally came to my defense, I see a lot of other people saw it the same way as me... woohoo! I wasn't just a jerk :P

    I don't know which game you bashed but bashing a game in beta is childish. I've explained what developers want out of a beta tester. It's up to you whether you change or not. I don't expect it to be an overnight thing. It might just click one day and you'll understand.

    I also find it amusing that some of you kids assume i'm somehow involved in game development because i understand what dev's want. I simply talk to game developers. I know some personally and i know some through beta's. I'm not trying to redefine what beta testing means. I'm trying to make you understand that your definition of beta testing is incorrect.

    I'm glad to see that some in this community can grasp the fact that - BETA'S ARE NOT DEMO'S!

  • daveospicedaveospice Member UncommonPosts: 357
    I think people need to realize that just because something should be a certain way, doesn't mean it IS A CERTAIN WAY.  Your close minded views on beta testing copeland are nice for a perfect world, but with the current beta testers out there I think your views are flawed to an IMMENSE degree.
  • jonsnow13jonsnow13 Member Posts: 67



    Originally posted by Copeland




    Originally posted by jonsnow13
    you know at first I felt bad for bashing that game like I did... now that you guys finally came to my defense, I see a lot of other people saw it the same way as me... woohoo! I wasn't just a jerk :P

    I don't know which game you bashed but bashing a game in beta is childish. I've explained what developers want out of a beta tester. It's up to you whether you change or not. I don't expect it to be an overnight thing. It might just click one day and you'll understand.

    I also find it amusing that some of you kids assume i'm somehow involved in game development because i understand what dev's want. I simply talk to game developers. I know some personally and i know some through beta's. I'm not trying to redefine what beta testing means. I'm trying to make you understand that your definition of beta testing is incorrect.

    I'm glad to see that some in this community can grasp the fact that - BETA'S ARE NOT DEMO'S!


    Copeland...  just quit talking I can't stand reading anything of yours so I think I'm just going to stop bothering to read them, all you do is constantly call everyone kids like you're the only grown up around here who has the ideas that qualifies for adult...  which I think makes you classify as a child in my book.

    On the other side, I wasn't bashing the game I was more bashing the company for releasing the game too early in open beta, and then expecting people to not break the NDA after allowing anyone (even kids) in to test it.  They were and still are morons if you ask me.

  • sushimeessushimees Member Posts: 489


    Originally posted by Copeland
    Originally posted by jonsnow13
    you know at first I felt bad for bashing that game like I did... now that you guys finally came to my defense, I see a lot of other people saw it the same way as me... woohoo! I wasn't just a jerk :P

    I don't know which game you bashed but bashing a game in beta is childish. I've explained what developers want out of a beta tester. It's up to you whether you change or not. I don't expect it to be an overnight thing. It might just click one day and you'll understand.

    I also find it amusing that some of you kids assume i'm somehow involved in game development because i understand what dev's want. I simply talk to game developers. I know some personally and i know some through beta's. I'm not trying to redefine what beta testing means. I'm trying to make you understand that your definition of beta testing is incorrect.

    I'm glad to see that some in this community can grasp the fact that - BETA'S ARE NOT DEMO'S!


    Copeland stop with the kid thing, you totally make it sound that the word "kid" means the same as "stupid".

    image
    image

  • CopelandCopeland Member Posts: 1,955

    LOL some people are too touchy.. wonder if its the kids that think beta's are demo's?

  • CopelandCopeland Member Posts: 1,955


    Originally posted by jonsnow13
    Originally posted by Copeland Originally posted by jonsnow13you know at first I felt bad for bashing that game like I did... now that you guys finally came to my defense, I see a lot of other people saw it the same way as me... woohoo! I wasn't just a jerk :P I don't know which game you bashed but bashing a game in beta is childish. I've explained what developers want out of a beta tester. It's up to you whether you change or not. I don't expect it to be an overnight thing. It might just click one day and you'll understand.
    I also find it amusing that some of you kids assume i'm somehow involved in game development because i understand what dev's want. I simply talk to game developers. I know some personally and i know some through beta's. I'm not trying to redefine what beta testing means. I'm trying to make you understand that your definition of beta testing is incorrect.
    I'm glad to see that some in this community can grasp the fact that - BETA'S ARE NOT DEMO'S!
    Copeland... just quit talking I can't stand reading anything of yours so I think I'm just going to stop bothering to read them, all you do is constantly call everyone kids like you're the only grown up around here who has the ideas that qualifies for adult... which I think makes you classify as a child in my book.
    On the other side, I wasn't bashing the game I was more bashing the company for releasing the game too early in open beta, and then expecting people to not break the NDA after allowing anyone (even kids) in to test it. They were and still are morons if you ask me.

    I still dont know what game you were bashing and i can pretty much guess you're not over 25. Therefore to me you're a kid. I'm an old bald guy. I can call anyone under 40 a kid LOL but mainly i'm referring to the noobish immature approach of "OOOO a beta i wanna check out this game!" "OOO this g4me is teh suxxor" "screw you dev's i'm goin to wow!" I've seen it on several boards for several games in the last year so for you to think it has something to do soley with your comment about 1 game is wrong. Yeah i know i fan the flames a bit with my attitude. I dont mind :). It's good to make people angry and make them think. You kids seem to enjoy it soo..

  • mred310mred310 Member Posts: 2

    You are absolutely, dead-to-rights, hitting the nail on the head RIGHT! Same goes for kids who go in and kill rankings on this board for no reason. I understand if someone has a legitimate problem with the game. However, state your problems with the game in a mature way. Bashing doesn't serve anyone's purpose but your own selfish one. It would be nice if there were restrictions on beta testers, maybe not credit cards, but perhaps having to have a parent's permission or what not.

  • ScarisScaris Member UncommonPosts: 5,332


    Originally posted by Copeland
    I still dont know what game you were bashing and i can pretty much guess you're not over 25. Therefore to me you're a kid. I'm an old bald guy. I can call anyone under 40 a kid LOL but mainly i'm referring to the noobish immature approach of "OOOO a beta i wanna check out this game!" "OOO this g4me is teh suxxor" "screw you dev's i'm goin to wow!"

    You discredited ANY intelligent statement you managed to muster out with this one. You have managed to dodge any post countering your topic and answering the few you have with ones with things like above. Impressive, however I will say this one of yours is probably more thought out then your original post.

    When you actually want to try to defend that one leg your standing on let me know, maybe I will visit this thread again

    - Scaris

    "What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World

  • sushimeessushimees Member Posts: 489

    Copeland, you're a very sad bald guy, who thinks that kids are ruining this world.

    And you still haven't given me a normal answer.

    image
    image

  • CopelandCopeland Member Posts: 1,955


    Originally posted by sushimees
    Copeland, you're a very sad bald guy, who thinks that kids are ruining this world.And you still haven't given me a normal answer.

    Oh you're waiting a response from me? Don't. I didn't make this post to argue in case you haven't quite figured that out yet. It was a statement. There is no room for argument. If you feel that you need to argue my point then you're the type of person my statement was directed at. Think about it. If you see beta in any other way than as a test then this statement was put here for you k. Theres a reason they call it beta TESTING and not DEMO!

  • CopelandCopeland Member Posts: 1,955


    Originally posted by Fadeus
    Originally posted by Copeland
    I still dont know what game you were bashing and i can pretty much guess you're not over 25. Therefore to me you're a kid. I'm an old bald guy. I can call anyone under 40 a kid LOL but mainly i'm referring to the noobish immature approach of "OOOO a beta i wanna check out this game!" "OOO this g4me is teh suxxor" "screw you dev's i'm goin to wow!"

    You discredited ANY intelligent statement you managed to muster out with this one. You have managed to dodge any post countering your topic and answering the few you have with ones with things like above. Impressive, however I will say this one of yours is probably more thought out then your original post.

    When you actually want to try to defend that one leg your standing on let me know, maybe I will visit this thread again


    There is nothing to defend or debate Fadeus. As a long standing member of this community i'm saddened that you dont know the definition of beta TESTING. Go check out websters and see what their definiton of testing is. Do they say anything about it being a demo? If a beta test is actually a demo then why do they have 2 week demo periods? Why do they call it a free trial and not an ongoing beta testing period? Simply because BETA'S ARE NOT DEMO's.

    Also let me point out to all the people who keep thinking i'm talking about stress tests that the topic is BETA'S not STRESS TESTS. Reading comprehension 101 for all the hooked on phonics kids YAY!

  • CopelandCopeland Member Posts: 1,955

    /sarcasm on

    Ok you guys are right. Beta's are all for hype. They want all the kids talking about the game thats why they send you a Non-Disclosure Act. It's all just a rouse - they really want you to talk.

    You're right BETA's are a complete game thats why its LIVE! YEP YEP Beta's are actually an early release for the "special" kids so they can brag to their respective friends that they were there FIRST!

    Yes after Alpha testing the game is complete. We all know that a game only takes a year to develop so after alpha its a finished product!

    /sarcasm off


  • ScarisScaris Member UncommonPosts: 5,332


    Originally posted by Copeland
    Originally posted by Fadeus
    Originally posted by Copeland
    I still dont know what game you were bashing and i can pretty much guess you're not over 25. Therefore to me you're a kid. I'm an old bald guy. I can call anyone under 40 a kid LOL but mainly i'm referring to the noobish immature approach of "OOOO a beta i wanna check out this game!" "OOO this g4me is teh suxxor" "screw you dev's i'm goin to wow!"

    You discredited ANY intelligent statement you managed to muster out with this one. You have managed to dodge any post countering your topic and answering the few you have with ones with things like above. Impressive, however I will say this one of yours is probably more thought out then your original post.

    When you actually want to try to defend that one leg your standing on let me know, maybe I will visit this thread again


    There is nothing to defend or debate Fadeus. As a long standing member of this community i'm saddened that you dont know the definition of beta TESTING. Go check out websters and see what their definiton of testing is. Do they say anything about it being a demo? If a beta test is actually a demo then why do they have 2 week demo periods? Why do they call it a free trial and not an ongoing beta testing period? Simply because BETA'S ARE NOT DEMO's.

    Also let me point out to all the people who keep thinking i'm talking about stress tests that the topic is BETA'S not STRESS TESTS. Reading comprehension 101 for all the hooked on phonics kids YAY!


    Thats it? Thats the SINGLE point of my original post you can comment on? I think I have to agree with someone else that posted in this thread. Participating in your threads is a complete waste of time.

    - Scaris

    "What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World

  • ScarisScaris Member UncommonPosts: 5,332


    Originally posted by Copeland
    /sarcasm onOk you guys are right. Beta's are all for hype. They want all the kids talking about the game thats why they send you a Non-Disclosure Act. It's all just a rouse - they really want you to talk.You're right BETA's are a complete game thats why its LIVE! YEP YEP Beta's are actually an early release for the "special" kids so they can brag to their respective friends that they were there FIRST!Yes after Alpha testing the game is complete. We all know that a game only takes a year to develop so after alpha its a finished product! /sarcasm off

    Grow up. For someone your age you sure have a hard time acting like an adult, or talking like one for that matter.

    - Scaris

    "What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World

  • CopelandCopeland Member Posts: 1,955


    Originally posted by Fadeus
    Originally posted by Copeland
    Originally posted by Fadeus
    Originally posted by Copeland
    I still dont know what game you were bashing and i can pretty much guess you're not over 25. Therefore to me you're a kid. I'm an old bald guy. I can call anyone under 40 a kid LOL but mainly i'm referring to the noobish immature approach of "OOOO a beta i wanna check out this game!" "OOO this g4me is teh suxxor" "screw you dev's i'm goin to wow!"

    You discredited ANY intelligent statement you managed to muster out with this one. You have managed to dodge any post countering your topic and answering the few you have with ones with things like above. Impressive, however I will say this one of yours is probably more thought out then your original post.

    When you actually want to try to defend that one leg your standing on let me know, maybe I will visit this thread again


    There is nothing to defend or debate Fadeus. As a long standing member of this community i'm saddened that you dont know the definition of beta TESTING. Go check out websters and see what their definiton of testing is. Do they say anything about it being a demo? If a beta test is actually a demo then why do they have 2 week demo periods? Why do they call it a free trial and not an ongoing beta testing period? Simply because BETA'S ARE NOT DEMO's.

    Also let me point out to all the people who keep thinking i'm talking about stress tests that the topic is BETA'S not STRESS TESTS. Reading comprehension 101 for all the hooked on phonics kids YAY!


    Thats it? Thats the SINGLE point of my original post you can comment on? I think I have to agree with someone else that posted in this thread. Participating in your threads is a complete waste of time.


    I'm not here to argue as i said. You seem to think that when a game goes to beta its 98% done. No matter what i say your opinion isnt going to change. You're only completely wrong but delude yourself and keep demoing beta's if you wish. As far as being a consumer.. You're not a consumer until you purchase the product. As a beta tester you are part of its development which is a completely different role from consumer.

    Anyway fadeus gets my last response to this thread as this wasnt intended as a debate just a statement. You cant redefine the idea of Testing.

  • CopelandCopeland Member Posts: 1,955


    Originally posted by Fadeus
    Originally posted by Copeland
    /sarcasm onOk you guys are right. Beta's are all for hype. They want all the kids talking about the game thats why they send you a Non-Disclosure Act. It's all just a rouse - they really want you to talk.You're right BETA's are a complete game thats why its LIVE! YEP YEP Beta's are actually an early release for the "special" kids so they can brag to their respective friends that they were there FIRST!Yes after Alpha testing the game is complete. We all know that a game only takes a year to develop so after alpha its a finished product! /sarcasm off

    Grow up. For someone your age you sure have a hard time acting like an adult, or talking like one for that matter.


    It was sarcasm Fadeus.. did you not see the /sarcasm on /sarcasm off?

    Sarcasm is the tool i use when dealing with the blatently stupid. I mean these are obvious facts and the people the post was referencing clearly cant even grasp the most simplistic aspect of beta testing. Consider yourself in that group since you think a game is 98% done after alpha LOL.

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