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Are MMORPG on the way out as MOBA begin to rise?

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  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,653

    For every bright vision we see,what gets ignored are all the failures.So many developers trying to mimic a success story,losing their shirt but it keeps that trend alive  for several years.Eventually investors and developers realize their stupidity and begin to aim for some new idea.Then we get the same rinse and repeat,a couple success stories and thousands of devs trying to cash in on the same idea.

     

     

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • svandysvandy Member UncommonPosts: 277

    I think its pretty odd anyone would suggest MOBAs are "beginning" to rise, as they have pretty much already taken the gaming world by storm for years now. If anything, we are starting to see a decline in MOBAs as the market gets flooded with me-too titles, identical to what happened to MMOs after World of Warcraft. If any genre is "on the rise," at present it is probably the open-world survival genre (DayZ, H1Z1, ARK, etc - all top sellers on Steam I might add).

    That said, MMORPGs are declining rapidly but it is not because of MOBAs, it is because of a complete lack of innovation and unrealistic expectations from the fanbase. At this point fans want the combat of Bloodborne, the graphics of GTA V, the storytelling of Mass Effect, the sandboxiness of Skyrim, the economy of EVE... etc etc etc. It is simply not possible to deliver the game MMORPG fans want at this point, and I think many studios are realizing that and instead dialing back the expectations and moving away from the MMORPG label. Destiny is an example of this, and the upcoming No Mans Sky as well. MMORPG fans want MMORPGs to be every single thing gaming has to offer, and it is exactly what has caused the dumbing down of the genre.

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  • dave6660dave6660 Member UncommonPosts: 2,699
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10
    Originally posted by Khebeln

    Moba is nice for casual players but gets boring REALLY fast for hardcore ones unless you seriously in to e-sport.

    Personally moba feel repetitively boring for me, and lack depth and social structure.

    Couldn't have said it better.  The game play is just too shallow to entertain for long stretches of time.

    If you want to say MOBA's are repetitive or boring that's fine.  But to say their game play lacks depth or to call them shallow is either trolling or willful ignorance.

     

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • HarikenHariken Member EpicPosts: 2,495
    Originally posted by uidLuc1d
    MOBAs are fairly boring in my opinion.  Nothing more than with different graphics, and a further camera angle.  Get in, kill some folks, get out, repeat.  Meh.

    Agreed also they are pretty much the same game. Its just that its the new candy and people will get sick of them too. I find them to be boring clickfest games.

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534

    I personally play other games because the genre is stagnant.  Its not that I'm tired of the MMORPG by any means, only tired of what is currently being produced.

    There are some new MMORPGs in development that will change the genre.  How much is anyones guess, and being that most of them are indie games, it will mean they lack the polish and content for mass appeal.  However, they may prove to the suits that there are indeed other ways to make an MMORPG.

    MOBAs are irrelevant to MMORPGs.


  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,164
    Originally posted by Dullahan

    There are some new MMORPGs in development that will change the genre.

    People have been saying that for ages. And they are still saying it.

    While the others, who enjoy the present instead of waiting for an hypothetical ideal future, are playing and having fun.

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 1,034

    Yes, I think so.

    The PvPers are definitely winning this war, because its a lot easier to design balanced PvP in a MOBA than in an MMORPG - where it clashes badly with PvE design and balance without putting in double the work to try to fit it in.

  • azzamasinazzamasin Member UncommonPosts: 3,100
    Originally posted by syntax42
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    MOBAs won't replace MMOs anymore than shooters will replace city-building games.

     

     

    Sorry to burst your precious bubble but MOBA's have been more populated then MMO's for a while now.  MMO's are the worst genre by the numbers and it is only going to get worse.

    Care to back up your wild claims with some reliable sources?

    All one needs to look at is twitch and other sites where popularity of games are measured via numbers, either viewership or players logged.  MMO's have WoW.  Nothing else comes close.  Whereas MOBA's have League, DOTA2, Heroes, HoN etc.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • CruizerkeCruizerke Member UncommonPosts: 68

    I can only speak for myself and the friends that I still keep in contact with over the years since I started playing MMOs back in 2000. None of my friends nor myself care for MOBAs and do not consider one to be a competitor of the other. It' s more of an Apples vs Oranges thing. What I have noticed more of is that some older gamers just get out of games almost completely having MMOS being their last instead of moving on to a newer trend like MOBAs which have felt more like a thing for younger generations.

    I also wouldn't count Twitch numbers or similar viewing sites numbers because from what I have observed, it is once again the younger generations that flock to those sites for content so naturaly the content streamers will play what is most popular with that viewer base.

  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,691
    MOBAS are on an upward swing because it's a new genre being explored by players.  MMOs are on a downward spiral due to many factors, one of which I believe is the lack of quality of recent releases as well as a general tendency for any aging genre as people decide whether it's for them or not.  I also think part of the decline is the recent change in business models and the nickel and diming dynamic taking place.  I think the biggest factor though is the current trend to turn MMOs into instance game lobbies and moving away from virtual world / simulation / immersion designs.

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  • FangrimFangrim Member UncommonPosts: 616
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10
    Originally posted by Khebeln

    Moba is nice for casual players but gets boring REALLY fast for hardcore ones unless you seriously in to e-sport.

    Personally moba feel repetitively boring for me, and lack depth and social structure.

    Couldn't have said it better.  The game play is just too shallow to entertain for long stretches of time.

    This is how I feel about so called MMORPG now though,all of them are bland and boring. 

    Moba I have never even looked at but that will probably because I totally ignore that kind of gameplay...I don't even know what it is tbh but I'm guessing its real time mass management of resources and armies? I hated that in Age of Empires and have steered away from any 'game' that gives this type of gameplay.

    I'm watching this now https://www.revivalgame.com/philosophy/mission_statement

     


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  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Dullahan

    There are some new MMORPGs in development that will change the genre.

    People have been saying that for ages. And they are still saying it.

    While the others, who enjoy the present instead of waiting for an hypothetical ideal future, are playing and having fun.

    The number of people playing MMOs is incredibly small compared to other genres.  Theres over 3 billion people on the internet, and the active MMO playerbase of the top 20 games is somewhere around 1% of that.  You can pretend that everything is great as a themepark apologist, but the rest of us are smirking at you.


  • H0urg1assH0urg1ass Member EpicPosts: 2,380

    People can throw imaginary numbers and their personal feelings around all they like, but the facts are this:  No new AAA MMORPG's, with tens/hundreds of millions of dollars of investment are on their way any time soon.  WildStar and TESO were the final nails in the coffin, neither of which have come anywhere the sub and activity levels of WoW.  If they had, then their owners would be standing on a mountain top yelling about their player numbers.

    On the other hand, MOBA's have been releasing left and right, with new ones being announced regularly... many from the same companies that used to make MMO's.

    That's the facts Jack.  Companies chase the money and right now the money is in the lobby based team matchmaking games like MOBA's and World of Tanks.  MMO's simply don't have the return on investment that these games have.  

    To create a themepark MMO, you have to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to create content that most players will chew through in 30-60 days.  With a MOBA or a WoT, the companies can spend a tiny fraction of that amount and earn hundreds of millions by selling individual characters/tanks/avatars a la carte.

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Originally posted by h0urg1ass

    People can throw imaginary numbers and their personal feelings around all they like, but the facts are this:  No new AAA MMORPG's, with tens/hundreds of millions of dollars of investment are on their way any time soon.  WildStar and TESO were the final nails in the coffin, neither of which have come anywhere the sub and activity levels of WoW.  If they had, then their owners would be standing on a mountain top yelling about their player numbers.

    On the other hand, MOBA's have been releasing left and right, with new ones being announced regularly... many from the same companies that used to make MMO's.

    That's the facts Jack.  Companies chase the money and right now the money is in the lobby based team matchmaking games like MOBA's and World of Tanks.  MMO's simply don't have the return on investment that these games have.  

    To create a themepark MMO, you have to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to create content that most players will chew through in 30-60 days.  With a MOBA or a WoT, the companies can spend a tiny fraction of that amount and earn hundreds of millions by selling individual characters/tanks/avatars a la carte.

    Just because thats what is being spent, doesn't justify the amount. Beyond that, just because those are the types of games that people have thrown money at, doesn't mean that short term fun model is the right model. It just means money is being wasted somewhere, and they need to reevaluate how they are creating their games to make the content more meaningful and longer-lasting.

    15 years ago it took 2 million to make an MMO, and they were able to create content faster than 90% of players were able to consume it. Poor decisions were obviously made somewhere along the way, and because the most successful games were making money, people chose to replicate the problems with the improvements.


  • HelleriHelleri Member UncommonPosts: 930
    Originally posted by cheyane

    Even if MOBAs are becoming popular and perhaps outstrip MMORPGs what relevance is it to folk who do not play or enjoy  MOBAs. Those people who do not enjoy point click or the lack of the 'world' in the MOBA is not going suddenly see the light and switch. They will continue to play the games that are available simply because the gameplay in MOBAs is not to their liking.

     

    Unless you are saying that as a result more developers who were making MMORPGs will now solely make MOBAs. Well Blizzard has done that in support of your argument but are they giving up the MMORPG genre then. My point is what difference would this development mean to a player who enjoys MMORPGs unless it is that less money will be going to MMORPGs. 

     

    Fine even if empirically you are correct I have played League of Legends and it will never ever take the place of an MMORPG and even if that was not your point I have never been able to play FPS because I get bad nausea and headaches and does it affect my love for MMORPGs that I cannot play a very popular genre. They are just different genres, even if MOBAs outstrip the development and popularity and I suspect it already does it makes little difference to me as I am still playing MMORPGs . I am not going to suddenly develop a liking for MOBAs especially since I did not like it that much after playing it for 3 months.

     I think before we can fairly ask what the ramifications of this may be. We have to ask "Why it is so?"

     

    I like this idea that was presented by someone here (I forget who they are off hand). That MMORPG have just settled. MOBA may very well be on the rise because MMORPG have simply become comfortable as a Genre with where they are at (room has been made to allow for new success).

     

    For the extant MMORPG (and especially old dogs and giants like Tibia, Ultima Online,  Runescape, EVE Online, and World of Warcraft). Whatever MOBA are doing will likely have little effect on them. New MMORPG might have some trouble though. Simply because the ones worth playing the most already exist. They have proven themselves to be the cream of the crop by their longevity. And, there may simply be no more room left for innovation in this Genre (only remixes).

     

    MOBA don't have this issue (if it is really even an issue). There is still plenty of places the Genre can be taken. Plenty of innovation to be had. Plenty of features to cherry pick (and not just from MOBA themselves to other MOBA) and be recombined.

     

    Now if some players are leaving MMORPG for MOBA. Maybe it's just because their tired. Tired of sub games that go f2p like clockwork in spite all the "this time will be different babe" being thrown around. Tired of seeing basically the same game with new aesthetic. And, they probably see a lot of potential for MOBA. Heck, you can (although are not likely to) make a real world living playing MOBA. Even if you are not grinding high level items and selling them on an auction house. There is Youtubing sessions, teaching others how to play, e-sports participation , Live streaming. At the very least it possible with MOBA to pay for your gaming experience by doing it. There are not many MMORPG that can boast benefiting people RL financially. or bringing them fame fairly easily.

     

    This actually might be the winning factor for a MOBA. it cutting out all the fat. They are actually more social. Just not within the game space. But, in a space that may matter more....real life. It's easier for the average joy to watch, understand and even celebrate what is going on with MOBA and MOBA like games based competition then it is with MMORPG. Becuase there is a lot less going on. It's more enjoyable to watch happen because you don't have to sit through 30 levels of grinding to get to viewing anything interesting. I am not that into MOBA myself. But if you put a video about an MMORPG or live stream of playing on in front of me vs. a MOBA competition that shows thousands of fans, that has commentating for anything I may not understand. I am going to pick the latter to watch. It's also kinder to a society with increasingly less time on their hands.

    image

  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    Originally posted by Helleri
    Originally posted by cheyane

    Even if MOBAs are becoming popular and perhaps outstrip MMORPGs what relevance is it to folk who do not play or enjoy  MOBAs. Those people who do not enjoy point click or the lack of the 'world' in the MOBA is not going suddenly see the light and switch. They will continue to play the games that are available simply because the gameplay in MOBAs is not to their liking.

     

    Unless you are saying that as a result more developers who were making MMORPGs will now solely make MOBAs. Well Blizzard has done that in support of your argument but are they giving up the MMORPG genre then. My point is what difference would this development mean to a player who enjoys MMORPGs unless it is that less money will be going to MMORPGs. 

     

    Fine even if empirically you are correct I have played League of Legends and it will never ever take the place of an MMORPG and even if that was not your point I have never been able to play FPS because I get bad nausea and headaches and does it affect my love for MMORPGs that I cannot play a very popular genre. They are just different genres, even if MOBAs outstrip the development and popularity and I suspect it already does it makes little difference to me as I am still playing MMORPGs . I am not going to suddenly develop a liking for MOBAs especially since I did not like it that much after playing it for 3 months.

     I think before we can fairly ask what the ramifications of this may be. We have to ask "Why it is so?"

     

    I like this idea that was presented by someone here (I forget who they are off hand). That MMORPG have just settled. MOBA may very well be on the rise because MMORPG have simply become comfortable as a Genre with where they are at (room has been made to allow for new success).

    MOBAs were on the rise.  Every indicator now shows that they are stabilizing.  There have been several, very well made MOBAs, that have recently failed or are on the verge of failure.  Anyone that likes MOBAs would be perfectly happy playing LoL.  When you've played one, you've played them all.  There really is no difference between one and another.  They are all relatively the same.

    For the extant MMORPG (and especially old dogs and giants like Tibia, Ultima Online,  Runescape, EVE Online, and World of Warcraft). Whatever MOBA are doing will likely have little effect on them. New MMORPG might have some trouble though. Simply because the ones worth playing the most already exist. They have proven themselves to be the cream of the crop by their longevity. And, there may simply be no more room left for innovation in this Genre (only remixes).

    These are all assumptions based on your opinion, or perhaps personal preference.  A gamer with an MMORPG preference can simply substitute your MMORPG for MOBA and it will hold just as true. 

    MOBA don't have this issue (if it is really even an issue). There is still plenty of places the Genre can be taken. Plenty of innovation to be had. Plenty of features to cherry pick (and not just from MOBA themselves to other MOBA) and be recombined.

    There are just as many places and innovation that the MMORPG genre can be taken as there are for MOBAs.  The only difference being that MMORPGs are much more expensive to design, develop, and maintain.  That is the only difference.

    Now if some players are leaving MMORPG for MOBA. Maybe it's just because their tired. Tired of sub games that go f2p like clockwork in spite all the "this time will be different babe" being thrown around. Tired of seeing basically the same game with new aesthetic. And, they probably see a lot of potential for MOBA. Heck, you can (although are not likely to) make a real world living playing MOBA. Even if you are not grinding high level items and selling them on an auction house. There is Youtubing sessions, teaching others how to play, e-sports participation , Live streaming. At the very least it possible with MOBA to pay for your gaming experience by doing it. There are not many MMORPG that can boast benefiting people RL financially. or bringing them fame fairly easily.

    Again, with renewed ingenuity, innovation and funding in the MMORPG genre all of the above are just as possible in MMORPGs as they are in MOBAs.

    This actually might be the winning factor for a MOBA. it cutting out all the fat. They are actually more social. Just not within the game space. But, in a space that may matter more....real life. It's easier for the average joy to watch, understand and even celebrate what is going on with MOBA and MOBA like games based competition then it is with MMORPG. Becuase there is a lot less going on. It's more enjoyable to watch happen because you don't have to sit through 30 levels of grinding to get to viewing anything interesting. I am not that into MOBA myself. But if you put a video about an MMORPG or live stream of playing on in front of me vs. a MOBA competition that shows thousands of fans, that has commentating for anything I may not understand. I am going to pick the latter to watch. It's also kinder to a society with increasingly less time on their hands.

    You are not going to convince anyone that prefers MMORPGs over MOBAs about anything in the above.  It is obvious you prefer MOBAs.  Others, like myself and cheyane, do not like MOBAs and believe them to be a shallower versions of an MMORPG.  Again, they are different genres.  No one liking online chess is going to give it up to play a MOBA.  Different gamers have different gaming preferences.

    Regarding spectating ... I'd rather watch boxing than baseball, but I'd rather play baseball than box.

     

  • HelleriHelleri Member UncommonPosts: 930
    Originally posted by LacedOpium
    Originally posted by Helleri
    Originally posted by cheyane

    Even if MOBAs are becoming popular and perhaps outstrip MMORPGs what relevance is it to folk who do not play or enjoy  MOBAs. Those people who do not enjoy point click or the lack of the 'world' in the MOBA is not going suddenly see the light and switch. They will continue to play the games that are available simply because the gameplay in MOBAs is not to their liking.

     

    Unless you are saying that as a result more developers who were making MMORPGs will now solely make MOBAs. Well Blizzard has done that in support of your argument but are they giving up the MMORPG genre then. My point is what difference would this development mean to a player who enjoys MMORPGs unless it is that less money will be going to MMORPGs. 

     

    Fine even if empirically you are correct I have played League of Legends and it will never ever take the place of an MMORPG and even if that was not your point I have never been able to play FPS because I get bad nausea and headaches and does it affect my love for MMORPGs that I cannot play a very popular genre. They are just different genres, even if MOBAs outstrip the development and popularity and I suspect it already does it makes little difference to me as I am still playing MMORPGs . I am not going to suddenly develop a liking for MOBAs especially since I did not like it that much after playing it for 3 months.

     I think before we can fairly ask what the ramifications of this may be. We have to ask "Why it is so?"

     

    I like this idea that was presented by someone here (I forget who they are off hand). That MMORPG have just settled. MOBA may very well be on the rise because MMORPG have simply become comfortable as a Genre with where they are at (room has been made to allow for new success).

    MOBAs were on the rise.  Every indicator now shows that they are stabilizing.  There have been several, very well made MOBAs, that have recently failed or are on the verge of failure.  Anyone that likes MOBAs would be perfectly happy playing LoL.  When you've played one, you've played them all.  There really is no difference between one and another.  They are all relatively the same.

    Show me "every indicator" I've presented my evidence that they are on the rise. Give me your backing for your assertion that they are stabilizing. And, being similar to one another is what makes them a genre. The same could be said for any genre. That isn't a point you have made...it's an obvious statement.

    For the extant MMORPG (and especially old dogs and giants like Tibia, Ultima Online,  Runescape, EVE Online, and World of Warcraft). Whatever MOBA are doing will likely have little effect on them. New MMORPG might have some trouble though. Simply because the ones worth playing the most already exist. They have proven themselves to be the cream of the crop by their longevity. And, there may simply be no more room left for innovation in this Genre (only remixes).

    These are all assumptions based on your opinion, or perhaps personal preference.  A gamer with an MMORPG preference can simply substitute your MMORPG for MOBA and it will hold just as true. 

    No, it is empirically true. Longevity is the only reasonable measure by which you can prove that something is likely to survive minor upsets. and merits it's position.

    MOBA don't have this issue (if it is really even an issue). There is still plenty of places the Genre can be taken. Plenty of innovation to be had. Plenty of features to cherry pick (and not just from MOBA themselves to other MOBA) and be recombined.

    There are just as many places and innovation that the MMORPG genre can be taken as there are for MOBAs.  The only difference being that MMORPGs are much more expensive to design, develop, and maintain.  That is the only difference.

    Your basically arguing against Einstein's infinite mass paradox. It is litterally not possible given the time elapsed and numeration of kind for both genre, for MMORPG to have just as many new places to go as MOBA.

    Now if some players are leaving MMORPG for MOBA. Maybe it's just because their tired. Tired of sub games that go f2p like clockwork in spite all the "this time will be different babe" being thrown around. Tired of seeing basically the same game with new aesthetic. And, they probably see a lot of potential for MOBA. Heck, you can (although are not likely to) make a real world living playing MOBA. Even if you are not grinding high level items and selling them on an auction house. There is Youtubing sessions, teaching others how to play, e-sports participation , Live streaming. At the very least it possible with MOBA to pay for your gaming experience by doing it. There are not many MMORPG that can boast benefiting people RL financially. or bringing them fame fairly easily.

    Again, with renewed ingenuity, innovation and funding in the MMORPG genre all of the above are just as possible in MMORPGs as they are in MOBAs.

    No, not really. The interest curve has clearly shown this not to be so (and again you've presented no counter evidence).

    This actually might be the winning factor for a MOBA. it cutting out all the fat. They are actually more social. Just not within the game space. But, in a space that may matter more....real life. It's easier for the average joy to watch, understand and even celebrate what is going on with MOBA and MOBA like games based competition then it is with MMORPG. Becuase there is a lot less going on. It's more enjoyable to watch happen because you don't have to sit through 30 levels of grinding to get to viewing anything interesting. I am not that into MOBA myself. But if you put a video about an MMORPG or live stream of playing on in front of me vs. a MOBA competition that shows thousands of fans, that has commentating for anything I may not understand. I am going to pick the latter to watch. It's also kinder to a society with increasingly less time on their hands.

    You are not going to convince anyone that prefers MMORPGs over MOBAs about anything in the above.  It is obvious you prefer MOBAs.  Others, like myself and cheyane, do not like MOBAs and believe them to be a shallower versions of an MMORPG.  Again, they are different genres.  No one liking online chess is going to give it up to play a MOBA.  Different gamers have different gaming preferences.

    I don't need to convince any one of what is empirically true. Prove my statements are false with a counter line of reasoning if able (not just saying I disagree). And, as for my purview I have made it explicitly clear that my preference is for MMORPG (on this thread and over my entire time on these forums). Your unsubstantiated inference is intellectually dishonest for having ignored this. And, it verges on being an argument fallacy via an ad hominem attack accusing me of bias.

    Regarding spectating ... I'd rather watch boxing than baseball, but I'd rather play baseball than box.

    That is your prerogative. And, also not the prerogative of everyone. Furthermore that clearly see these shooter and MOBA e-sport events  televised shows that there is an abundant interest in it.

     

    All that said. I took the long root to making a reasonable argument for causality of what is the case (by what evidence has actually been presented in this thread so far). So, it's easy to understand you getting a little lost on it.

    image

  • kabitoshinkabitoshin Member UncommonPosts: 852
    I would just like to express that I really don't like mobas and I will never play one over an MMO.
  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    Originally posted by Helleri
    Originally posted by LacedOpium
    Originally posted by Helleri
     

     I think before we can fairly ask what the ramifications of this may be. We have to ask "Why it is so?"

     

    I like this idea that was presented by someone here (I forget who they are off hand). That MMORPG have just settled. MOBA may very well be on the rise because MMORPG have simply become comfortable as a Genre with where they are at (room has been made to allow for new success).

    MOBAs were on the rise.  Every indicator now shows that they are stabilizing.  There have been several, very well made MOBAs, that have recently failed or are on the verge of failure.  Anyone that likes MOBAs would be perfectly happy playing LoL.  When you've played one, you've played them all.  There really is no difference between one and another.  They are all relatively the same.

    Show me "every indicator" I've presented my evidence that they are on the rise. Give me your backing for your assertion that they are stabilizing. And, being similar to one another is what makes them a genre. The same could be said for any genre. That isn't a point you have made...it's an obvious statement.

    You've obviously not kept up with this thread.  Despite many posters telling you that those graphs are misleading and not an indication of an evidence of a rise in their popularity you still insist that it be taken as evidence.  It's not.  Whether you want to believe it or not, MOBAs are stabilizing.  Perhaps you don't know the meaning of "stabilizing" ... or "genre" for that matter since there is no similarity between MOBAs and MMORPGs other than both of them being video games.  They are two different genres in the online video game industry.

     Here's a little info from a gaming industry CEO that should shed some light on your MOBA rising theory...

    GamesBeat: The MOBA craze is still showing its influence. Halo 5 looks very MOBA-like in some ways. The shooter-MOBA goal is out there for a lot of folks.

    Hartsman: Yeah. I saw Battleborn, saw Gigantic, saw Overwatch. There’s a lot of great gameplay in all three of those games. I’m looking forward to seeing how people react to them for real. I’ll personally play the hell out of all of them. But the classic MOBAs, obviously, you’ve seen how dangerous that market can be. There have been games that have shut down that were perfectly fine games. It’s just that the audience playing those MOBAs is happy to play the games they’re currently playing. They don’t want to move at all.

    GamesBeat: Yeah, like the Warner Bros. and DC title, Infinite Crisis (which shut down).

     

    For the extant MMORPG (and especially old dogs and giants like Tibia, Ultima Online,  Runescape, EVE Online, and World of Warcraft). Whatever MOBA are doing will likely have little effect on them. New MMORPG might have some trouble though. Simply because the ones worth playing the most already exist. They have proven themselves to be the cream of the crop by their longevity. And, there may simply be no more room left for innovation in this Genre (only remixes).

    These are all assumptions based on your opinion, or perhaps personal preference.  A gamer with an MMORPG preference can simply substitute your MMORPG for MOBA and it will hold just as true. 

    No, it is empirically true. Longevity is the only reasonable measure by which you can prove that something is likely to survive minor upsets. and merits it's position.

    Empirically true?  There is no "empirical truth"whatsoever in your statement that there may be no more room left for innovation in the MMORPG genre.  It is an opinion only and a wrong one at that.  Are you really saying that MMORPGs have stopped evolving and there is no hope for the genre? How short sighted can you be to even begin to believe that?

    MOBA don't have this issue (if it is really even an issue). There is still plenty of places the Genre can be taken. Plenty of innovation to be had. Plenty of features to cherry pick (and not just from MOBA themselves to other MOBA) and be recombined.

    There are just as many places and innovation that the MMORPG genre can be taken as there are for MOBAs.  The only difference being that MMORPGs are much more expensive to design, develop, and maintain.  That is the only difference.

    Your basically arguing against Einstein's infinite mass paradox. It is litterally not possible given the time elapsed and numeration of kind for both genre, for MMORPG to have just as many new places to go as MOBA.

    What??? This is laughable.  Stop trying to sound smart because you are failing horribly at it.  You can not, with a straight face, be applying Einstein's infinite mass paradox to this scenario?  I won't even debate this point for fear that I may somehow validate it. *smh*

    Now if some players are leaving MMORPG for MOBA. Maybe it's just because their tired. Tired of sub games that go f2p like clockwork in spite all the "this time will be different babe" being thrown around. Tired of seeing basically the same game with new aesthetic. And, they probably see a lot of potential for MOBA. Heck, you can (although are not likely to) make a real world living playing MOBA. Even if you are not grinding high level items and selling them on an auction house. There is Youtubing sessions, teaching others how to play, e-sports participation , Live streaming. At the very least it possible with MOBA to pay for your gaming experience by doing it. There are not many MMORPG that can boast benefiting people RL financially. or bringing them fame fairly easily.

    Again, with renewed ingenuity, innovation and funding in the MMORPG genre all of the above are just as possible in MMORPGs as they are in MOBAs.

    No, not really. The interest curve has clearly shown this not to be so (and again you've presented no counter evidence).

    The interest curve will spike when renewed ingenuity, innovation and funding is infused into the MMORPG genre.  Do I really need to provide you evidence of that inevitable fact?

    This actually might be the winning factor for a MOBA. it cutting out all the fat. They are actually more social. Just not within the game space. But, in a space that may matter more....real life. It's easier for the average joy to watch, understand and even celebrate what is going on with MOBA and MOBA like games based competition then it is with MMORPG. Becuase there is a lot less going on. It's more enjoyable to watch happen because you don't have to sit through 30 levels of grinding to get to viewing anything interesting. I am not that into MOBA myself. But if you put a video about an MMORPG or live stream of playing on in front of me vs. a MOBA competition that shows thousands of fans, that has commentating for anything I may not understand. I am going to pick the latter to watch. It's also kinder to a society with increasingly less time on their hands.

    You are not going to convince anyone that prefers MMORPGs over MOBAs about anything in the above.  It is obvious you prefer MOBAs.  Others, like myself and cheyane, do not like MOBAs and believe them to be a shallower versions of an MMORPG.  Again, they are different genres.  No one liking online chess is going to give it up to play a MOBA.  Different gamers have different gaming preferences.

    I don't need to convince any one of what is empirically true. Prove my statements are false with a counter line of reasoning if able (not just saying I disagree). And, as for my purview I have made it explicitly clear that my preference is for MMORPG (on this thread and over my entire time on these forums). Your unsubstantiated inference is intellectually dishonest for having ignored this. And, it verges on being an argument fallacy via an ad hominem attack accusing me of bias.

    Nothing that you have stated can be, in any way shape or form, be construed as empirical truth.  It is your opinion.  Merely that, and nothing more.  Your demands that I provide proof against opinions that you proclaim as empirical truth are laughable. 

    Regarding spectating ... I'd rather watch boxing than baseball, but I'd rather play baseball than box.

    That is your prerogative. And, also not the prerogative of everyone. Furthermore that clearly see these shooter and MOBA e-sport events  televised shows that there is an abundant interest in it.

     

    All that said. I took the long root to making a reasonable argument for causality of what is the case (by what evidence has actually been presented in this thread so far). So, it's easy to understand you getting a little lost on it.

    It is obvious all throughout this post that you try too hard to sound smart my friend.  So much so that your entire post borders on the unintelligible.  Try relaxing and writing clearly.  You will get your point across a lot better.  And with that, I am done with this debate for I can hear the ban hammer beginning to strike.

  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by syntax42
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    MOBAs won't replace MMOs anymore than shooters will replace city-building games.

    Sorry to burst your precious bubble but MOBA's have been more populated then MMO's for a while now.  MMO's are the worst genre by the numbers and it is only going to get worse.

    Care to back up your wild claims with some reliable sources?

    All one needs to look at is twitch and other sites where popularity of games are measured via numbers, either viewership or players logged.  MMO's have WoW.  Nothing else comes close.  Whereas MOBA's have League, DOTA2, Heroes, HoN etc.

    Actually no. Twitch cannot, and never has been used as a reliable source for a game's popularity. It's long since been proven that viewership =/= player numbers, as there are quite a few streamers that pull in insane viewers regardless of what they are doing (they could be streaming sonic adventures to 300,000 viewers, it does not mean that that game has 300,000 players).

    A cursory glance at the top games, combined with a brief google search of their current populations illustrates this quite clearly. While there are certain outliers (like League of Legends) that people try to use to prove the rule, that's not how statistics work. Unless you don't actually care about the info, and are just looking for numbers that you feel can be used to prove your own assumptions.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Originally posted by Dullahan
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Dullahan

    There are some new MMORPGs in development that will change the genre.

    People have been saying that for ages. And they are still saying it.

    While the others, who enjoy the present instead of waiting for an hypothetical ideal future, are playing and having fun.

    The number of people playing MMOs is incredibly small compared to other genres.  Theres over 3 billion people on the internet, and the active MMO playerbase of the top 20 games is somewhere around 1% of that.  You can pretend that everything is great as a themepark apologist, but the rest of us are smirking at you.

    (RED)That has always been the case....(the rest) What percentage of that 3 billion play games at all?  Now consider....even less than that percentage play games that require any type of commitment in time or ongoing purchases..

    I really don't care how well MMORPGs are doing, themepark or otherwise, on the other hand I do care about outlandish spin being presented as a worthy argument...

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Dullahan
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Dullahan

    There are some new MMORPGs in development that will change the genre.

    People have been saying that for ages. And they are still saying it.

    While the others, who enjoy the present instead of waiting for an hypothetical ideal future, are playing and having fun.

    The number of people playing MMOs is incredibly small compared to other genres.  Theres over 3 billion people on the internet, and the active MMO playerbase of the top 20 games is somewhere around 1% of that.  You can pretend that everything is great as a themepark apologist, but the rest of us are smirking at you.

    (RED)That has always been the case....(the rest) What percentage of that 3 billion play games at all?  Now consider....even less than that percentage play games that require any type of commitment in time or ongoing purchases..

    I really don't care how well MMORPGs are doing, themepark or otherwise, on the other hand I do care about outlandish spin being presented as a worthy argument...

    There is no spin here, however you want to interpret my statement. The point you missed is, there are a lot of potential people out there and yet a very narrow approach to MMO development. Instead of focusing on replicating the success of other games, studios need work on broadening their design and coming up with new ideas of how to create lasting virtual worlds.

    How well do you think the movie industry would do if all they produced was Lord of the Rings knock offs?


  • SytheeverbladeSytheeverblade Member UncommonPosts: 10
    I certainly have friends that enjoy the MOBA, but personally I'm not a fan and stick to the MMORPG.  I don't mind lobby based games like World of Tanks mentioned as one of the top played games, but it's more of a secondary game for me.  I just need the story and depth an MMORPG offers that a MOBA just can't do.
  • HelleriHelleri Member UncommonPosts: 930
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by syntax42
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    MOBAs won't replace MMOs anymore than shooters will replace city-building games.

    Sorry to burst your precious bubble but MOBA's have been more populated then MMO's for a while now.  MMO's are the worst genre by the numbers and it is only going to get worse.

    Care to back up your wild claims with some reliable sources?

    All one needs to look at is twitch and other sites where popularity of games are measured via numbers, either viewership or players logged.  MMO's have WoW.  Nothing else comes close.  Whereas MOBA's have League, DOTA2, Heroes, HoN etc.

    Actually no. Twitch cannot, and never has been used as a reliable source for a game's popularity. It's long since been proven that viewership =/= player numbers, as there are quite a few streamers that pull in insane viewers regardless of what they are doing (they could be streaming sonic adventures to 300,000 viewers, it does not mean that that game has 300,000 players).

    A cursory glance at the top games, combined with a brief google search of their current populations illustrates this quite clearly. While there are certain outliers (like League of Legends) that people try to use to prove the rule, that's not how statistics work. Unless you don't actually care about the info, and are just looking for numbers that you feel can be used to prove your own assumptions.

    Not that he said viewers or players logged. Most MMORPG I have played have a of counter that lets you know how many are playing. And that does expose viewers of a stream to the amount of people playing a game. And, while 300, 000 viewers are not likely to also be 300,000 players. A healthy chunk of them may very well be. And, possibly quite a bit more for having seen it. Where they might other wise have never thought to even look at it.

     

    Even those who do not watch a stream because they play the game being streamed. Or do not play the game being streamed thereafter because they watched the stream...they are still exposed. made aware. Much in the same way a commercial for WoW with a celebrity endorsement exposes people who might other wise not be to WoW. An older person who might suggest to a friend on the subject of what to get their kid for their birthday "well there is this game all the kids are playing I saw on tv". It's also not as realistic to expect people to want to play sonic adventures as it is to expect people to want to play Hots or Strife or hearthstone after seeing either live streamed.  Exposure can equate to popularity.

     

    And, twitch is a powerful tool for popularity. If it were not Totalbisquit or Quickybaby wouldn't use it to stream their matches. Jagex wouldn't have dumped mills into twitch integration for Runescape (although to be fair Jagex has dumped mills into plenty of pure folly projects over the years. But, they are starting to wise up now, and this move could be said to be a sign of that).

     

    Also, I showed you a cursory glance. However, my searches were not brief nor were they agendist (all of which I clearly stated in the OP, if you would be so kind as to read it again, instead of making a veiled and baseless accusation). There was no attempt at a proving of rule. There was a correlation and a reasonable question asked. Also Big names are generally the only ones who are forth coming with any real statistics publicly. Even so this is few and far between. And, you do have to really dig to find some of these releases.

     

    But, showing the general interest curve of big names and large categories is called big picturing. It's perfectly valid within the realm of how to show and interpret statistics. Yes it is a little vague. But, I would expect that some would be interested enough to do more digging and put more light on what was a simple and honest question.

    that said such 'cursory glances' *eye roll* (really, it's like all you did was read the title and look at the pretty pictures) even serves to fill the gaps since the last time one of them said anything about their vital statistics. And can allow us to extrapolate back words and forwards from the points that they do. Google's core goal by the way is to archive the entirety of the internet. And, they are pretty darn good at it. When they provide such tools as google trends and google correlation. It's not something to take with only a grain of salt. If it were, they would be just another search engine instead of having a stake in your everyday life.

    image

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Originally posted by Dullahan
    Originally posted by Distopia
     

    (RED)That has always been the case....(the rest) What percentage of that 3 billion play games at all?  Now consider....even less than that percentage play games that require any type of commitment in time or ongoing purchases..

    I really don't care how well MMORPGs are doing, themepark or otherwise, on the other hand I do care about outlandish spin being presented as a worthy argument...

    There is no spin here, however you want to interpret my statement. The point you missed is, there are a lot of potential people out there and yet a very narrow approach to MMO development. Instead of focusing on replicating the success of other games, studios need work on broadening their design and coming up with new ideas of how to create lasting virtual worlds.

    How well do you think the movie industry would do if all they produced was Lord of the Rings knock offs?

     How do you know what the potential market size is at this point? The genre has had over a decade to draw folks in, what would cause a sudden change to draw them in now? On top of that if you're trying to equate people who moved on as a new potential market, what info do you have that correlates to that? You project your own opinion into a potential market, and act as though it's a lucrative one, with no real evidence (it's all anecdotal or seeing what you want to see). Yet smirk at others?

    How often is the movie industry coming up with original ideas in this day and age? Almost everything they do is a retread or a remake. They're still making a killing off it. That's a bad example.

     

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


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