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They still refuse to offer an expansion only copy

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  • simpliussimplius Member UncommonPosts: 1,134

    if it is, i will get a refund,  i refuse to play more of that

    i just want some normal quests, in a normal zone

    they have done it before, so we know they can

  • simpliussimplius Member UncommonPosts: 1,134
    Originally posted by SalmonMan

    The Silverwastes are always packed - their are always multiple maps.

    Yes, HoT will likely be like SW. It's a fantastic map. You would seem to be in the minority.

    no , the day you have over 3 BIO people in silverwastes, i will be in minority

    until then, its the other way

    L2read

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 11,073
    Originally posted by simplius

    if it is, i will get a refund,  i refuse to play more of that

    i just want some normal quests, in a normal zone

    they have done it before, so we know they can

    They already kind of hinted that it wasn't going to be the "normal" quest route.  While I don't doubt that they'll have some new story quests that delve into it..   the new tiered system of the jungle is supposed to be different than what we've already seen.

     

    That being said, the reasons the silverwastes are so popular is primarily because 1) It is easier, faster, and more rewarding to chest farm than it ever was to champ farm   and 2) SOME of the events reward better than almost all of the champ events in the regular game.   (and now especially since they doubled the health for a lot of champs,  those fights take MUCH longer and get extremely boring).  I'm not a huge fan of silverwastes.  But to be honest.. on Blackgate.. most areas are fairly packed all day everyday.   

     

    Its also equally interesting that DryTop isn't as packed,  and a lot of players don't even know what to do when they get there.  These aren't horrible maps...  but honestly without the chest farms they wouldn't be any more popular than any of the other areas.  I really only go there when I have keys left and nothing better to do.



  • grimalgrimal Member UncommonPosts: 2,920
    Originally posted by Panzerbase
    They're asking for 50 bucks after 3 years, I fail to see anything wrong with their request. 

    So we're back to the $50 being for past content?!

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by Panzerbase
    They're asking for 50 bucks after 3 years, I fail to see anything wrong with their request. 

    So we're back to the $50 being for past content?!

    Or perhaps the next 3 years

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 21,436
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by Panzerbase
    They're asking for 50 bucks after 3 years, I fail to see anything wrong with their request. 

    So we're back to the $50 being for past content?!

    The previous $50 was for the last 3 years. This $50 is for what is going forward. Hopefully they will add something like this every 18 months or so with included content updates in between.

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • NailzzzNailzzz Member UncommonPosts: 515
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Nailzzz
     

     They may have decided not to increase the size of the game world for fear that the population would spread out too much, but for those of us who want fresh world exploration and non-story content, this expansion offers very little. If they really so badly need an extra $50 from their players, then at least have them throw in about $30 in gems if the game key is added to an existing account. I could see paying perhaps $20 for the additional map area on offer and then getting gems out of the balance. Meanwhile if the new version of the game is used as a new account, then its still $50 for new players with expansion included but without the additional gems. That seems fair to me. Everyone wins. Arenanet gets their $50 out of everyone. New players get to just pay $50 for the whole game up to that point. And old players get their moneys worth.

      Simply expecting us to rebuy the game every time an expansion comes along for the sake of new players getting everything up to date when they start, is a bit unfair to loyal players if the new expansion content does not justify a $50 cost. Having an additional copy of the base game does what for us exactly? What the hell am I going to do with it, I already have an account. If I want to get a new person into the game, I'll buy them the whole thing again. I'm not going to put them in the same position Arenanet is choosing to put me in later on down the road if they like the game and want the expansions. If I like the person enough to buy them the game, I'm not going to slap them in the face like that. It isn't about the money to me.

    Silverwastes is a small map. It is one of the bests and most played maps in GW2.

    It has the best meta event and it is rewarding.

    Do we want 20 maps that we play once or do we want a handful of maps we keep on playing?

    And by all the accounts the new expansion maps are Silverwastes 2.0 XXXL.

     

    You aren't buying the base game again. You get no additional copy of the base game.  

    You either get to update your progress to GW2:HoT or start a new GW2:HoT account. 

    The base game is now GW2:HoT.

    Then it will be GW2:Expansion 2. Then GW2:Expansion 3.

     

    If you choose you can wait until they stop dropping expansions to then get all the content in one go. Of course the content will then be years old.

    What you pay for is to get fresh content now. Anet will not charge you for the old content as long as you paid for the fresh one.

     

     Thank you for the clarification about the "base game copy" issue. It seemed that people were making this claim and it sounded incredibly stupid to me so glad to have that clarified.

    My overall complaint and line of thinking still stands however in regards to the cost vs. content not  justifying a $50 purchase cost in regards to what the expansion is bringing to the table. I feel that their decision to limit the size of the game world in favor of pushing living story content does not serve the kind of player i am. In the beginning they promoted the idea that you could play the game how you like in order to appeal to a multitude of player tastes. For those of us who like exploration however, it seems that we are being pushed aside and i can't help but be disappointed by this meager showing. I have had 100% map completion of the entire game in less than 2 weeks since the retail launch and have spent the rest of the time exploring and enjoying pvp and doing dungeons, helping new players and biding my time with other games till the next area of the world to explore opened up.

    I invested heavily in the cash shop to support the game in the interim because i enjoyed the exploration and other content enough to be willing to support the game and invest in my character looking forward to the next big map expansion. But sadly, this is very underwhelming compared to the world they showed us in GW1 or even what was dug up in data files within GW2.

    http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/40761-the-complete-world-of-tyria-image-heavy/

    What this says to me and a lot of other players who came into this on the initial promises of the developers when we threw down our first $50, is that they do not desire our business further. Which to me is a huge shame as i do really love the game. We are just not the kind of player that Arenanet wishes to cater to after all. That's fine and nothing at all personal. Perhaps at the point where the new areas actually justify a $50 price tag, i will go ahead and repurchase the game then. Problem solved as far as i am concerned. I'm not expecting to be catered to over other players. It's their game. But it's also my money and if they want more of it, they will have to do better than what i have seen indicated so far in this expansion. I'm obviously not alone in my thinking or this thread would not exist. A thread that exists largely to address how we feel a bit let down.

    If this winds up losing them players and money, then perhaps they will look around and see this and rethink the direction they have chosen if they want to win some of us and our money back. If it winds up being a good move, then i wish them well despite my personal disappointment. I don't pretend to represent the majority of players, just myself. Unlike a lot of the people complaining that people are voicing their concerns by trying to frame it in terms of entitled players whining about being asked to pay $50. At the same time, no one is entitled to my $50.

  • ellobo29ellobo29 Member UncommonPosts: 423

    What I think is kinda funny is that many people dont realize that the new WVW mode and Stronghold PVP mode will be available to everyone apon release.... Which basicly halves the amount of content that many people seem to think they are getting with this "EXPANSION".

     

    It just doesn't seem to be worth $50 to me....

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,065
    Originally posted by ellobo29

    What I think is kinda funny is that many people dont realize that the new WVW mode and Stronghold PVP mode will be available to everyone apon release.... Which basicly halves the amount of content that many people seem to think they are getting with this "EXPANSION".

     

    It just doesn't seem to be worth $50 to me....

    You still lose the new class and specializations in those places.

    It is funny how you use something that is a good thing, letting people access some content without paying, and try to make it an evil thing with the usage of "" around expansion.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,065
    Originally posted by Nailzzz
     

    My overall complaint and line of thinking still stands however in regards to the cost vs. content not  justifying a $50 purchase cost in regards to what the expansion is bringing to the table. I feel that their decision to limit the size of the game world in favor of pushing living story content does not serve the kind of player i am. In the beginning they promoted the idea that you could play the game how you like in order to appeal to a multitude of player tastes. For those of us who like exploration however, it seems that we are being pushed aside and i can't help but be disappointed by this meager showing. I have had 100% map completion of the entire game in less than 2 weeks since the retail launch and have spent the rest of the time exploring and enjoying pvp and doing dungeons, helping new players and biding my time with other games till the next area of the world to explore opened up.

    I invested heavily in the cash shop to support the game in the interim because i enjoyed the exploration and other content enough to be willing to support the game and invest in my character looking forward to the next big map expansion. But sadly, this is very underwhelming compared to the world they showed us in GW1 or even what was dug up in data files within GW2.

     

    Seriously you just went there.

    In the same week the patch just completely redid LA giving you tons of places to explore and NPCs to dialogue with many interesting tidbits.

    And what has the latest Living Story done? 

    It expanded the world with a couple new areas to explore.

    And new vertical maps that will require masteries to fully explore.

    Also GW1 more explorable than GW2? What?

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by ellobo29

    What I think is kinda funny is that many people dont realize that the new WVW mode and Stronghold PVP mode will be available to everyone apon release.... Which basicly halves the amount of content that many people seem to think they are getting with this "EXPANSION".

     

    It just doesn't seem to be worth $50 to me....

    You still lose the new class and specializations in those places.

    It is funny how you use something that is a good thing, letting people access some content without paying, and try to make it an evil thing with the usage of "" around expansion.

    Make it an "evil" thing? It's neither about being good or evil, it's about incentive the items he/she listed don't really add to the incentive to buy.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • NailzzzNailzzz Member UncommonPosts: 515
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Nailzzz
     

    My overall complaint and line of thinking still stands however in regards to the cost vs. content not  justifying a $50 purchase cost in regards to what the expansion is bringing to the table. I feel that their decision to limit the size of the game world in favor of pushing living story content does not serve the kind of player i am. In the beginning they promoted the idea that you could play the game how you like in order to appeal to a multitude of player tastes. For those of us who like exploration however, it seems that we are being pushed aside and i can't help but be disappointed by this meager showing. I have had 100% map completion of the entire game in less than 2 weeks since the retail launch and have spent the rest of the time exploring and enjoying pvp and doing dungeons, helping new players and biding my time with other games till the next area of the world to explore opened up.

    I invested heavily in the cash shop to support the game in the interim because i enjoyed the exploration and other content enough to be willing to support the game and invest in my character looking forward to the next big map expansion. But sadly, this is very underwhelming compared to the world they showed us in GW1 or even what was dug up in data files within GW2.

     

    Seriously you just went there.

    In the same week the patch just completely redid LA giving you tons of places to explore and NPCs to dialogue with many interesting tidbits.

    And what has the latest Living Story done? 

    It expanded the world with a couple new areas to explore.

    And new vertical maps that will require masteries to fully explore.

    Also GW1 more explorable than GW2? What?

    Why wouldn't i go there? Redoing old places is not the same as giving new places. And yes they have added a couple new areas before this expansion alongside the living story updates, which is fine and well. But that has nothing to do with this expansion. Making a location a pain to get around in is not the positive that you are trying to paint it as. I enjoyed exploring the various locations in GW2 without needing to have the whole map act as a jumping puzzle. I have no problem with the occasional map jumping puzzle here and there but that isn't always what people look for in terms of exploration.

    And as has already been referenced in my previous post, yes, GW1 did have more world to explore than GW2. By a rather large amount at this point. And judging by this expansion and the rate of map we have gotten so far, that will likely be the case well into the next decade. Now GW2 is adding more vertical area in a place like the maguuma jungle, which is good and makes sense. But i still can't justify $50 to unlock such a small part of tyria.

  • Leon1eLeon1e Member UncommonPosts: 791

    i think this discussion is pointless and as such it should be closed. 

    If you like the game, want to support the dev and want to see the new content first and 50$ is a no brainer for you - go for it. 

    If the price seem too high, wait until christmas, I bet there would be a sale then. No need to cry about it and trying to make a thing out of nothing.

    I didn't buy the new batman game because its too expensive for a buggy console port. Do I need to make a thread about it? Come on now ....

    ANet are *not* charging more than the average MMO developer. 

    Deal with it.

    Personally i was against at first, but then they addressed my issues so i ended up buying the 100 euro package along with my boyfriend. Typing /age in chat was more than enough to convince me it was worth it.

  • superniceguysuperniceguy Member UncommonPosts: 2,278
    Originally posted by Leon1e

    i think this discussion is pointless and as such it should be closed. 

    If you like the game, want to support the dev and want to see the new content first and 50$ is a no brainer for you - go for it. 

    If the price seem too high, wait until christmas, I bet there would be a sale then. No need to cry about it and trying to make a thing out of nothing.

    I didn't buy the new batman game because its too expensive for a buggy console port. Do I need to make a thread about it? Come on now ....

    ANet are *not* charging more than the average MMO developer. 

    Deal with it.

    Personally i was against at first, but then they addressed my issues so i ended up buying the 100 euro package along with my boyfriend. Typing /age in chat was more than enough to convince me it was worth it.

    It does seem rather crappy, to release the new expansion and give out the base game, so seems a genuine complaint. It seems the only reason for the high price is because they are including the base game, and if you have the game already you are buying the base game again.

    I am not too bothered about Guild Wars 2 so I will wait on a price drop no matter what the price.

    BUT if this happened with Star Wars Galaxies, my all time favorite MMO, I may have boycotted a purchase. If the price is only for the expansion, but to get the base game costs more, then I would buy it no matter the price of the expansion, which was the case with SWG. 

  • NightHaveNNightHaveN Member UncommonPosts: 1,051
    Except for Swtor, all the other companies charge $50 for their expansions, even the games that charge a monthly fee. Even last time I checked, Destiny was going for a high price in the next expansion.

    Due to that indirect "Industry Standard" price, you cannot evaluate as "I'm paying the game again". You are paying for the expansion as any other expansion from any other game. The only different is they decided to include the full game, instead of reboxing it, and hoping for it to sell in stores.

    At the end your choice should be:

    Do I'm getting enough new content to compensate that $50 dollar purchase, or is another WoD kind of fail.
  • BraindomeBraindome Member UncommonPosts: 959
    Originally posted by Leon1e

    If you like the game, want to support the dev and want to see the new content first and 50$ is a no brainer for you - bend over and take it like the unappreciated consumer you are.

    If the price seem too high, wait until christmas, I bet there would be a sale then. No need to cry about it and trying to make a thing out of the fact that you are having to pay twice for the base game instead of paying for the expansion like is normally done.

    I rewrote that for you and filled in the lines to make sense of what you are actually trying to say. In all honest I don't understand where consumers like you come from. Could you explain to us more about your gaming habits, income and what you do in your spare time? I would really like to understand consumers like you.....cause I don't.

     

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,065
    Originally posted by Nailzzz
    And as has already been referenced in my previous post, yes, GW1 did have more world to explore than GW2. By a rather large amount at this point. And judging by this expansion and the rate of map we have gotten so far, that will likely be the case well into the next decade. Now GW2 is adding more vertical area in a place like the maguuma jungle, which is good and makes sense. But i still can't justify $50 to unlock such a small part of tyria.

    If by a lot of places to explore you mean set trails you couldn't get off.

    Anet won't double or triple the size of the world with an expansion.

    Their strategy is to avoid deserts.

    No matter what game you have, if you keep increasing the real estate by 50%+ with each expansion you will get ghost towns.

    If you can't justify $50 for at least a year of content, that is your opinion.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • grimalgrimal Member UncommonPosts: 2,920
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Nailzzz
    And as has already been referenced in my previous post, yes, GW1 did have more world to explore than GW2. By a rather large amount at this point. And judging by this expansion and the rate of map we have gotten so far, that will likely be the case well into the next decade. Now GW2 is adding more vertical area in a place like the maguuma jungle, which is good and makes sense. But i still can't justify $50 to unlock such a small part of tyria.

    If by a lot of places to explore you mean set trails you couldn't get off.

    Anet won't double or triple the size of the world with an expansion.

    Their strategy is to avoid deserts.

    No matter what game you have, if you keep increasing the real estate by 50%+ with each expansion you will get ghost towns.

    If you can't justify $50 for at least a year of content, that is your opinion.

    So this expansion guarantees a year of playtime?  I didn't even get a years worth of playtime from the original game.  

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    If by a lot of places to explore you mean set trails you couldn't get off.

    Anet won't double or triple the size of the world with an expansion.

    Their strategy is to avoid deserts.

    No matter what game you have, if you keep increasing the real estate by 50%+ with each expansion you will get ghost towns.

    If you can't justify $50 for at least a year of content, that is your opinion.

    A year of content seems a tad optimistic unless you play really casual. Most players complete any new content for any MMO in weeks nowadays. The only exception is when content like raid content is time locked so you can't get the gear you need to progress until you got enough good loot from daily or weekly raids.

    I think it will take the average player more like a month to do close to everything in the expansion. That is however still more time than I spend in most single player games so for me it is worth the money easily but for the rest of you decide by yourself.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    Originally posted by superniceguy
    Originally posted by Leon1e

    i think this discussion is pointless and as such it should be closed. 

    If you like the game, want to support the dev and want to see the new content first and 50$ is a no brainer for you - go for it. 

    If the price seem too high, wait until christmas, I bet there would be a sale then. No need to cry about it and trying to make a thing out of nothing.

    I didn't buy the new batman game because its too expensive for a buggy console port. Do I need to make a thread about it? Come on now ....

    ANet are *not* charging more than the average MMO developer. 

    Deal with it.

    Personally i was against at first, but then they addressed my issues so i ended up buying the 100 euro package along with my boyfriend. Typing /age in chat was more than enough to convince me it was worth it.

    It does seem rather crappy, to release the new expansion and give out the base game, so seems a genuine complaint. It seems the only reason for the high price is because they are including the base game, and if you have the game already you are buying the base game again.

    I am not too bothered about Guild Wars 2 so I will wait on a price drop no matter what the price.

    BUT if this happened with Star Wars Galaxies, my all time favorite MMO, I may have boycotted a purchase. If the price is only for the expansion, but to get the base game costs more, then I would buy it no matter the price of the expansion, which was the case with SWG. 

    Not really genuine.  The base game has been out nearly 3 years so you have had an opportunity to play the game for almost 3 years.

    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

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  • PyukPyuk Member UncommonPosts: 762
    My best advice - if you don't like it, don't buy it. Speak with your wallet. If enough people don't buy the expansion in its current offering, ANet will try their damnedest to move product by offering an expansion-only version eventually. However, if sales are still good, you'll have a very long wait. 

    I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 21,436
    Originally posted by superniceguy
    Originally posted by Leon1e

    i think this discussion is pointless and as such it should be closed. 

    If you like the game, want to support the dev and want to see the new content first and 50$ is a no brainer for you - go for it. 

    If the price seem too high, wait until christmas, I bet there would be a sale then. No need to cry about it and trying to make a thing out of nothing.

    I didn't buy the new batman game because its too expensive for a buggy console port. Do I need to make a thread about it? Come on now ....

    ANet are *not* charging more than the average MMO developer. 

    Deal with it.

    Personally i was against at first, but then they addressed my issues so i ended up buying the 100 euro package along with my boyfriend. Typing /age in chat was more than enough to convince me it was worth it.

    It does seem rather crappy, to release the new expansion and give out the base game, so seems a genuine complaint. It seems the only reason for the high price is because they are including the base game, and if you have the game already you are buying the base game again.

    I am not too bothered about Guild Wars 2 so I will wait on a price drop no matter what the price.

    BUT if this happened with Star Wars Galaxies, my all time favorite MMO, I may have boycotted a purchase. If the price is only for the expansion, but to get the base game costs more, then I would buy it no matter the price of the expansion, which was the case with SWG. 

    Wait, wut? So including the previous content at no extra charge is now crappy? Those bastards! What a selfish gouge giving away stuff.

    The price of the expansion is inline with other box fees. Are people ignoring the point repeatedly made that Blizz just charged $50 for their xpac PLUS the sub-fees. Squeenix just charged $40 for their xpac PLUS the sub-fee and you still need to pay for the base game if you're a new player - how very benevolent of them (because this is opposite world).

    I think a lot of players did boycott decisions made by SoE and LucasArts. You really showed them didn't you. How's SWG working out now?

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,065
    Originally posted by Loke666
    A year of content seems a tad optimistic unless you play really casual. Most players complete any new content for any MMO in weeks nowadays. The only exception is when content like raid content is time locked so you can't get the gear you need to progress until you got enough good loot from daily or weekly raids.

    I think it will take the average player more like a month to do close to everything in the expansion. That is however still more time than I spend in most single player games so for me it is worth the money easily but for the rest of you decide by yourself.

    Players have been playing the base game for 3 years.

    We are talking 8 characters to level 80 with ascended armor/weapons + legendaries and 20K+ AP.

    Those are the hardcore players.

    And of course there will be Living World season 3.

    There are always those that just rush and said they have done everything in 2 days (48 hours of constant play) or 2 weeks (14+ hours a day) or 1 month (14+ hours a day). That kind of players will probably get more value of keep jumping between new MMOs. Those aren't the hardcore players, they are the locusts.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,065
    Originally posted by grimal
     

    So this expansion guarantees a year of playtime?  I didn't even get a years worth of playtime from the original game.  

    I got 3 years of the base game.

    So $50 seems fine for me. In fact if they asked $200 I would probably have bought it still.

    If you lasted only a few weeks, why do you even care about the expansion?

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Nailzzz
    And as has already been referenced in my previous post, yes, GW1 did have more world to explore than GW2. By a rather large amount at this point. And judging by this expansion and the rate of map we have gotten so far, that will likely be the case well into the next decade. Now GW2 is adding more vertical area in a place like the maguuma jungle, which is good and makes sense. But i still can't justify $50 to unlock such a small part of tyria.

    If by a lot of places to explore you mean set trails you couldn't get off.

    Anet won't double or triple the size of the world with an expansion.

    Their strategy is to avoid deserts.

    No matter what game you have, if you keep increasing the real estate by 50%+ with each expansion you will get ghost towns.

    If you can't justify $50 for at least a year of content, that is your opinion.

    So this expansion guarantees a year of playtime?  I didn't even get a years worth of playtime from the original game.  

     It guarantees to offer you content without any monthly charge.  The rest is up to you, buy it or not, work out if its value to you or not, decide an average $2 a month is expensive (lol) or not. Be a man, decide, prosper.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

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