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Is EQNext Vaporware?

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  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    Some of the best games ive played came from SOE EQ, Planetside 2...and Age of Empires 2 was a much better game than Warcraft 2 and 3. Blizzard made one good game and that was diablo 2. Magic: The Gathering is a much better game than Hearthstone. You guys are seriously up Blizzard's ass and thats whats making you all so critical with EQNext and Landmark...You want something that can beat WoW. I don't care, EQ and EQ2 was a good game and they will make a good game out of EQNext. Despite what the "experts" at mmorpg forums think. And Landmark is a decent game thats a quarter of its release and lacking the "addiction" element that makes mmos addicting. Yes its not fun but thats what SOE does it like.
    A couple of things there youngster:
    • There has been no SOE since February, it is Daybreak Games and is owned by Nova Columbus.
    • Lots of us that are critical of EQ Not! don't play Blizzard games, I for instance have played EQ and EQ2 for the main part with a two year break playing Rift.
    • EQ and EQ2 were good games, but a former Blizzard employee and then Dave Georgeson got to them, now they are still better than most but much worse than they have been.
  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325
    sorry im gonna spam so i can get posting thread privileges. Heres a video: 
  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325

  • MrSnufflesMrSnuffles Member UncommonPosts: 1,117
    Old videos are old. Nothing new for over a year.
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    "It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
    - Michael Bitton
    Community Manager, MMORPG.com

    "As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law

    "I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about." 
    - SEANMCAD

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  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,074
    Landmark is a success in that they actually got people to pay for and develop their game lol.....Basically EQN is probably going to end up a glorified Minecraft at best.
  • MrSnufflesMrSnuffles Member UncommonPosts: 1,117
    Landmark is a success in that they actually got people to pay for and develop their game lol.....Basically EQN is probably going to end up a glorified Minecraft at best.
    Landmark is far from a success. Sure a couple of hardcore people still play it but most people don't really care. It still has major issues and bugs that have not been fixed since the first Alpha.
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    "It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
    - Michael Bitton
    Community Manager, MMORPG.com

    "As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law

    "I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about." 
    - SEANMCAD

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  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,089
    edited September 2015
    Daffid011 said:
    while SOE doesn't have a history of repeated vaporware projects, they certainly have a steady history of poor releases, abandonment and shutting down games..
    This I agree with. They've never really nailed the total package of quality release, development/support, longevity. One piece is always missing leading to fans leaving and games suffering. Be it poor optimization at launch or major game changes down the line both resulting in fans not having a good time.

    While I still believe each project has the chance to stand on its own, history does tend to repeat itself. That said, the current company has been doing okay with the current library and the EQN team does seem to at least have decent ideas and has some ability to put at least the basics together.

    What will matter is if they have the talent/support to see the ideas through and get them out the door in a reasonable time in a way that will get fans to stick around and throw money at them.
  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,089
    edited September 2015
    Some of the best games ive played came from SOE EQ, Planetside 2...and Age of Empires 2 was a much better game than Warcraft 2 and 3. Blizzard made one good game and that was diablo 2. Magic: The Gathering is a much better game than Hearthstone. You guys are seriously up Blizzard's ass and thats whats making you all so critical with EQNext and Landmark...You want something that can beat WoW. I don't care, EQ and EQ2 was a good game and they will make a good game out of EQNext. Despite what the "experts" at mmorpg forums think. And Landmark is a decent game thats a quarter of its release and lacking the "addiction" element that makes mmos addicting. Yes its not fun but thats what SOE does it like.
    While what is "good" is relative to each individual, the masses seem to disagree with you as pretty much anything Blizzard touches is a massive success. I'm not a Blizzard fanboi myself, but I can't deny that people simply love their products and they are far from terrible.

    Isn't always about what is "better" but what people actually enjoy and want to play.

    SOE has had some bright spots in the dark, but overall they haven't really nailed the execution, at least not long term.

    At this point, EQN has as much chance to be great as it does to be a total pieces of garbage. Only time will tell, but as a gamer and fan of a good time, I want it to be the best product possible. The more quality options we have the better.
  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325
    edited September 2015
    Allein said:
    Some of the best games ive played came from SOE EQ, Planetside 2...and Age of Empires 2 was a much better game than Warcraft 2 and 3. Blizzard made one good game and that was diablo 2. Magic: The Gathering is a much better game than Hearthstone. You guys are seriously up Blizzard's ass and thats whats making you all so critical with EQNext and Landmark...You want something that can beat WoW. I don't care, EQ and EQ2 was a good game and they will make a good game out of EQNext. Despite what the "experts" at mmorpg forums think. And Landmark is a decent game thats a quarter of its release and lacking the "addiction" element that makes mmos addicting. Yes its not fun but thats what SOE does it like.
    While what is "good" is relative to each individual, the masses seem to disagree with you as pretty much anything Blizzard touches is a massive success. I'm not a Blizzard fanboi myself, but I can't deny that people simply love their products and they are far from terrible.

    Isn't always about what is "better" but what people actually enjoy and want to play.

    SOE has had some bright spots in the dark, but overall they haven't really nailed the execution, at least not long term.

    At this point, EQN has as much chance to be great as it does to be a total pieces of garbage. Only time will tell, but as a gamer and fan of a good time, I want it to be the best product possible. The more quality options we have the better.
    What i meant to say is that the games and gaming culture has changed  and it really is for the worse i mean we dont have a good memory to continue on the path we were taking before WoW came out. To have EQN pitted against WoW would be heartbreak knowing that if EQN loses all hope in games will have ended in the mmorpg scope. Many companies are watching this and they are going to be influence to put out more "copies" in this deciding fight

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,089
    What i meant to say is that the games and gaming culture has changed  and it really is for the worse i mean we dont have a good memory to continue on the path we were taking before WoW came out. To have EQN pitted against WoW would be heartbreak knowing that if EQN loses all hope in games will have ended in the mmorpg scope. Many companies are watching this and they are going to be influence to put out more "copies" in this deciding fight

    Doesn't seem like "many companies" give any cares to what happens with WoW or EQN. Almost every single upcoming mmo is very different than the traditional model and whatever variation. If all your hope falls on EQN, might be setting yourself for a let down. The EQ/WoW model is all but dead and the few trying to keep it going don't look very inspired. Time to start looking at other games.
  • User836User836 Member UncommonPosts: 117
    I don't get why they "need" to reassure the gaming community that they are making progress or why they should fire up the hype train again as some suggest - they have recruited a free workforce creating assets in Landmark already. The time window for selling Landmark copies to people psyched about the idea of an EQN has surely passed. Wouldn't it be better to lay low now, to come out and surprise gamers right before they start selling early access (or preorders or whatever they are planning) for a massive hype explosion at a time when they can make money off it?

    Sure many are curious to know how far along they are but unless they actively need to promote their game for the purpose of crowd fundraising, isn't it always better to keep development moving behind the curtains?
  • MrSnufflesMrSnuffles Member UncommonPosts: 1,117
    User836 said:
    I don't get why they "need" to reassure the gaming community that they are making progress or why they should fire up the hype train again as some suggest - they have recruited a free workforce creating assets in Landmark already. The time window for selling Landmark copies to people psyched about the idea of an EQN has surely passed. Wouldn't it be better to lay low now, to come out and surprise gamers right before they start selling early access (or preorders or whatever they are planning) for a massive hype explosion at a time when they can make money off it?

    Sure many are curious to know how far along they are but unless they actively need to promote their game for the purpose of crowd fundraising, isn't it always better to keep development moving behind the curtains?
    The are not using those assets, have you seen what happens to these "assets" when you are 50 meters away? The engine is so bad they turn into a multicolored blob not looking anything like when you are close to it. For EQ:N they need to create classic polygon assets not the voxel mess they use in Landmark.

    It's fine for landscapes but not for Objects.
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    "It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
    - Michael Bitton
    Community Manager, MMORPG.com

    "As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law

    "I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about." 
    - SEANMCAD

    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
  • Dr_ShivinskiDr_Shivinski Member UncommonPosts: 311
    I hope for the sake of all the fans of EQ and everyone who has been holding out for EQN, that it is not vaporware. 

    That aside, I can't help but feel that even if it is released, it will not be anything close to what we were told it was going to be in 2013. I wouldn't blame SOE/DBG for this, but the company that purchased them. It's a Venture Capital firm, while they aren't entirely risk averse, they aren't exactly run by people who are too interested in "out there" ideas. 
  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325
    Allein said:
    What i meant to say is that the games and gaming culture has changed  and it really is for the worse i mean we dont have a good memory to continue on the path we were taking before WoW came out. To have EQN pitted against WoW would be heartbreak knowing that if EQN loses all hope in games will have ended in the mmorpg scope. Many companies are watching this and they are going to be influence to put out more "copies" in this deciding fight

    Doesn't seem like "many companies" give any cares to what happens with WoW or EQN. Almost every single upcoming mmo is very different than the traditional model and whatever variation. If all your hope falls on EQN, might be setting yourself for a let down. The EQ/WoW model is all but dead and the few trying to keep it going don't look very inspired. Time to start looking at other games.
    Black Desert already has copied EQNs emergent AI model for territory control and made it a resource trading mechanic. What's popular is what is being used. Daybreak SOE has to keep this game behind a curtain otherwise people would just copy the crap out of it. EQ and WoW are the same vein but are very different in philosophies. WoW is easy to learn hard to master while EQ puts you in a world and treats and expects you learn like an adult. I dont know, everything about WoWs lore convinces me that its for teenagers.Frankly i like the EQ model because im constantly searching. EQN is very promising in that it gives me an adventure to look forward i like the serious nature of the lore, moreso than WoW where i do a quest and my mind is focused on the combat because i cant stand the lore and the combat isn't fullfilling because its too easy.So im not interested. And the difficulty. EQ puts you in a room and expects you to get out of it. All by yourself. sorry thats what i like lol. well you know what im talking about. Its just the different philosophies on how they go ahead on their games. 

    Believe me, i dont want to play EQ1 (been playing it for a year enjoy the crap out of it) forever but it seems like theres NO games following trend besides swtor for a little bit than maybe Crowfall. Thats why Crowfall is so popular you and i know that.  But developers want to make a game that millions play for 6 months max rather than make a game that 100k people play for 10 years...The latter is what i want. That means this company is dedicated! SOE has taken a lot of crap but you cannot beat their dedication. 21 expansions woohoo. They even lose money but they still want to give their fans what they want. Which is very admirable after all these years and not making 10 billion that WoW has made...

    Me, im addicted to EQN info, so its been the hardest on me but i never said anything when people were declaritively writing this off. I want to get posting privileges so i can talk about EQN stuff like Rohsong, the lore, class discussion and i hoped Daybreak would have had a fanfaire to discuss these topics. It kinda makes me hopeful that H1Z1 is so popular that because they pool their money into one pot cause of all access. So EQN is being funded and i heard somewhere in reddit that the developement team is still 100 people different working on the game. SO its down to world building and combat and ive posted the combat video in the last page and that looks good. With more polish and nothing "game-breaking" i hope, EQN might be the next big mmorpg. 40 designed classes and 7 years in developement, could be 10 years in developement this is a huge gamble but something like that is already in time because they already made the next gen steps needed to stay in the times.

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945

    I don't think Daybreak-SOE is the company that other companies keep tabs on to see where the market is going to trend or to steal ideas from for their games.  Nor do I think they are a company that has valued its customers desires to the point they prioritize them over profits.  Most of their actions speak to the contrary of that and pretty much caused the situations they are currently in.

    Aside from that I think everyone would love more EQN news or see how the game is progressing. 

  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325
    So explain why Daybreak is using "black tape" marketing strategy then explain why Black Desert has the meta game it has that is exactly like the territory control reveal from Storybricks. Why did Crowfall use voxel farm? Gw2 stole guild halls WoW stole mercernaries from EQ2. Rift stole the mentoring system also. Level agnostic dungeons Cross server dungeons also for EQ2. Dungeon maker. SOEmote. The EQ franchise has been ransacked and maybe they got something good  planned that would make them the most money which is good for the game. Its a strategy. The Hype Train was all probably in their strategy too. Multi-layered surfaces a world that goes down 5 Tiers. I think this stuff is awesome. Same with Emergent AI and Rallying Calls and permanent change.

    Profits is what keeps the games going. You think they work for free? If anything they are generous to keep the two Everquest games running with expansions and Vanguard and Freerealms up so long while writing of 60 million dollars at the bottom line...They even kept people in positions way longer than they should have. Its like a family company and thats good. Loyal employees should be kept for 20 years or so. good for the economy too.
  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,089
    edited September 2015
    Black Desert already has copied EQNs emergent AI model for territory control and made it a resource trading mechanic. 

    Snip...

    Me, im addicted to EQN info
    Black Desert overall looks like garbage to me so haven't looked into it much, could you link to how their AI works? A quick search gave me several links of how the AI is actually pretty bad and watching combat videos, it looks terrible. No idea how this factors into the "emergent" aspect of it, but like most buzzwords, it doesn't mean one thing.

    EQN's AI is supposed to take on a life of its own and in combat react somewhat like a player within limitations of course.

    Beyond the AI, I'm not sure what other companies would "copy" from the EQN design that aren't already available in some form in other games. What attracted me to EQN is the combination of features and what a game with them all could be like.

    Not sure what "devs" you speak of that want a huge spike and then bleeding population. Again, looking at almost all the upcoming games, they are shooting for low numbers, but much more dedicated and long term fans.

    It's great that EQ has kept going, but it died for me very early on (SOL/POP) as it did for the majority of fans of the original design. At least looking at the numbers. WoW did a similar thing after Vanilla, but it luckily increased by crazy numbers for quite a while with it becoming more and more accessible. Both are very grindy/timesink focused and not what I want to play anymore. Don't see many Western games copying that. Seems most are focused on the "emergent" design of players being the content for other players, be it PVP, building, crafting, or whatever social mechanics.

    I highly doubt there be another "next big" mmo. There might be more GW2/ESO/SWTOR types that get a million or whatever, but nothing WoW sized. Seems most aren't even shooting for a million at this point. A few hundred thousand or whatever is enough apparently to keep a small company funded.

    EQN has a lot of potential from the paper design, but the only thing that counts is what they get out the door.

    Something like Chronicles of Elyria sounds much more immersive and engaging from a RPG stand point and I wouldn't be surprised that if "EQ fans" were attracted to it more so than EQN. Games are starting to really branch out and becoming less and less like what is out or will be.

    Being an addict to EQN news must have you in some nasty withdrawals =)
  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,089
    edited September 2015

    So explain why Daybreak is using "black tape" marketing strategy then explain why Black Desert has the meta game it has that is exactly like the territory control reveal from Storybricks. Why did Crowfall use voxel farm? Gw2 stole guild halls WoW stole mercernaries from EQ2. Rift stole the mentoring system also. Level agnostic dungeons Cross server dungeons also for EQ2. Dungeon maker. SOEmote. The EQ franchise has been ransacked and maybe they got something good  planned that would make them the most money which is good for the game. Its a strategy. The Hype Train was all probably in their strategy too. Multi-layered surfaces a world that goes down 5 Tiers. I think this stuff is awesome. Same with Emergent AI and Rallying Calls and permanent change.
    And EQ basically took the generic MUD concept and gave it visuals, which came from PnP (D&D), which came from literature and larpers...or however the story goes.

    I honestly don't care who came up with it first, but who did it better. I'm not a SOE/EQ die hard, I'm a gamer.

    What I actually find funny is several of the "stolen" features seem like ways to deal with decreasing player numbers. Much of those are ways to keep a smaller player base together, be it across servers, factions, levels, skill levels, etc. To me it is a sign that most of those games are heading in the direction that EQ/EQ2 have been holding down for a long time...the bottom.

    The hype train and transparency were their original marketing strat. But from the outside looking in, it seems like a bunch of speed bumps caused them to knock that out. Loss of team members internal and external, tech being harder to nail than planned, being sold, etc which causes set backs and plans to change. Highly doubt they were like "Okay so we will hype this game up and tell everyone we'll be open and then a year or two in, just go silent on everything but door sizes for Barbarians" "Oh ya great plan, lets do it."

    As for why did Crowfall use Voxel Farm? Because it is pretty sweet tech that works very well with Unity 5 unlike Forgelight. Landmark might have been first to try and use it, but the tech was already public for a while. Doubt ACE is trying to "steal" anything from Daybreak.

    Don't let the hype get the best of you. Rally Calls are basically more elaborate public quests that may or may not have a "permanent" outcome. WoW's AQ even sounds similar back from Vanilla days. Rohsong sounds like a "better" quest log along with other themepark elements mixed in. Permanent Change isn't very permanent when the world heals physically and Rally Calls can be "reset" or whatever if devs deem it so. The AI is really the only mystery feature that could set EQN a part and or ahead of the pack.

    Again, no clue what Black Desert's is like, but EQN's is supposed to be a lot more than just faction territory control.
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,381
    <snip>
    Black Desert already has copied EQNs emergent AI model for territory control and made it a resource trading mechanic.
    A quick point here.  Black Desert hasn't copied anything.  They may have taken an idea that was announced and developed it on their own, but that isn't the same as copying.  Implementations are subject to patent laws; ideas are not.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945
    So explain why Daybreak is using "black tape" marketing strategy then explain why Black Desert has the meta game it has that is exactly like the territory control reveal from Storybricks. Why did Crowfall use voxel farm? Gw2 stole guild halls WoW stole mercernaries from EQ2. Rift stole the mentoring system also. Level agnostic dungeons Cross server dungeons also for EQ2. Dungeon maker. SOEmote. The EQ franchise has been ransacked and maybe they got something good  planned that would make them the most money which is good for the game. Its a strategy. The Hype Train was all probably in their strategy too. Multi-layered surfaces a world that goes down 5 Tiers. I think this stuff is awesome. Same with Emergent AI and Rallying Calls and permanent change.

    Profits is what keeps the games going. You think they work for free? If anything they are generous to keep the two Everquest games running with expansions and Vanguard and Freerealms up so long while writing of 60 million dollars at the bottom line...They even kept people in positions way longer than they should have. Its like a family company and thats good. Loyal employees should be kept for 20 years or so. good for the economy too.

    I think if you research a bit you may find most/all of those features were not originated at SOE.


    Though all games borrow concepts from other games, there are two flaws with your logic. ONe, SOE-Daybreak has not been a leader in the MMO field for a long time.  More often than not they are the ones following/emulating others ideas.  Second, SOE has been pretty open about theirs "secrets sauce" concepts going into EQN.  They dont seem worried about competition stealing anything.


    I assume by 'black tape' you ean why they have become so quiet about the games development.


    Here is why I think they have gotten so silent overall about the game


    1. The feedback from the media events showing the game was bad.

    2. The feedback from Landmark has been bad.

    3. The company was sold to new ownership

    4. They lost a lot of employees and resources (storybrick support, etc)

    5. They just do not have much more than Landmark at this point.

    6. Most of EQN is still just a concept at this point.


    I don't think they are being secretive due to competitive reasons. Instead I think they are being secretive due to most of the game not existing yet and they are faced with some very choices of what the can achieve with their existing resources and what they can't.

    Hard to show off a game that isn't built yet..

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,776
    Landmark was an experiment that failed. Maybe for it's own right it might be considered successful, but clearly it did not reach the level of success they had hoped to bring the rebirth of a brand and possibly the genre into the forefront. There is no way anything associated with Landmark was going to support the brand "Everquest" without tanking or at best, just another mediocre release that eeks by with enough success to keep the lights on. Since they obviously bet the farm on it and it failed,  they have gone back to the drawing board and probably don't know what to do since there is no way anything build on Landmark is going to redefine what it means to play an MMORPG in 2015 / 2016 and beyond.
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,399
    edited September 2015
    ^^^^ I think there is a very simple reason that there is "little news" - your reason 4.

    A poster above suggested that EQN needed some PR; sorry the PR / marketing / community staff were probably laid off this year, and in 2013 and or 2011 etc.

    Everybody left will be very focused on their job and only their job. Communication for released games has, almost certainly, been left to the individual teams. Their mission: make money for the game they are working on. Their choice going forward how much resource they use on development, how much on promotion.

    Communication for EQN? I suspect Smed picked that task up. Now? Everyone left will have "a full time job" so no one will "find time / volunteer". Development leads might end up doing it but they will have development deadlines and every hour spent doing a webcast is an hour not spent developing. The lowest cost strategy will be to focus on development, ignore communication. As and when EQN bears fruit - assuming it does - then and only then will someone look at the big picture as far as communication goes. Until then snippets only.
  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325
    Letting those people go was a good sign for EQN it means they are allocating resources to what matters, which is bringing in more talent to work on the game. CN is not stupid. They see profit in EQN. Im telling you guys black boxxing is a strategy. 1 million devs and business out of 1million devs and business men agree with me. Its a "Shore". When you black box a game, you either have something REALLY good up their sleeves that they are maximizing efforts to bring the biggest effect their hype machine can churn. Frankly all i have seen is opinions of has-beens. EQN is the future. It is better looking, more deep, more interesting, And who knows? Maybe they are as groundbreaking as ive stated. YOu guys will be steamrolled if you try to stop it. Because you know what? WE have the FUCKING BOMB. BOOM.
  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325
    edited September 2015
    canceled
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  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325
    edited September 2015
    canceled
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