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Is EQNext Vaporware?
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http://www.twitch.tv/everquestnext/v/14255015
3min - 8min marks.
Terry confirmed that EQN is still a company focus and today they are having their first company wide internal test on whatever they've been working on for the last couple months, sounds to be combat update and maybe other mechanics.
Clearly doesn't prove anything or give fans/public any more insight compared to what was already known, at least they addressed the fact that people are stating that the game is vaporware or insert doom and gloom.
Why we see few to no new trinity games coming out is because it is very boring if there isn't anything else to it. "You stand there, I'll stand here, hit 123123 when it's time." But it isn't much different then running around like a chicken without a head trying to shoot/hit anything in the way without any strategy or order at all. Neither is the solution.
Skill is relative to the system design.
Playing a FPS takes a different skill set than a RTS, CCG, MOBA, MMORPG, ARPG, etc.
Problem is we've been given various game of multiple different designs that focus on a specific feature and the rest of the experience is shallow.
"Twitch" combat can be just that, twitchy, but if the actual game design where it takes place was decent, there would be a lot more to it, the "depth" you speak of.
EQ's combat was pretty simply and relatively boring compared to modern games. 8 skills, pigeon holed roles, grinding the same exact thing over and over. WoW was a major improvement and continued to be by adding more complexity and depth to what is pretty much just learning a rotation and not screwing up. But once you've learned X, the challenge goes out the window and playing becomes a chore unless you simply love repetition for the sake of repetition.
Roles (CC, Support, Tanks, Healers, DPS) do not have to be mutually exclusive to whatever combat type.
Action combat can and does have roles depending on the game.
Fantasy does not have the holy trinity, it is a product of limited tech/imagination by game devs.
If a company can figure out how to not only have various roles and ways to play but also engaging combat that becomes more "realistic", it is a going to have plenty of fans. That was EQN's proposed design along with the AI which was supposed to allow such to happen. No clue if they can pull it off, but I'd be impressed.
Many games have attempted to blend the two, but always fall short in one way or another and it just falls apart overall.
It's a difficult task and I believe any company even trying to pull it off deserves some credit. Might not get there, but at least they are just copy/pasting a previous design to make a quick buck.
livestream going on with internal play test today. Guess that settles the vaporware discussion?
People around here can't decide what an MMO is, but that doesnt mean people should stop talking about MMOs here.
I think people are using Vaporware to desrcribe a project that is hyped and markerted (by the developer), but never materializes and seems to be doomed.
is that EQN? It certainly looks to be fitting that role. If the game was cancelled tomorrow I think history would not only judge it as vaproware, but probably one of the better examples for an MMO. Few would be surprised if it was cancelled.
If it does manage to release in decent hape that even remotely resembles all the hype and promises it will probably be judges as the Cinderella story of MMOs. MOst people would be shocked if that happened.
It is an interesting topic.
I recall the team saying they were moving towars a schedule of 'on demand' shows instead of weekly episodes. Not sure if that changed or went into effect though. Maybe someone else can fill in here.
Take that however you may.
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
- Michael Bitton
Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about."
- SEANMCAD
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But I am sure that you know more than he does and will have a different opinion , he could clearly be making it up.
Is EQNext Vaporware?
You may notice that definition does not talk about development. Projects can be actively worked on for a long time with apparent confidence by the Development team and then quietly cancelled or allowed to wither and die by Company Management.
The 'fact' that we have someone talking about development and from that believe that work is being performed really does not effect the question. The answer to:
Is EQNext Vaporware?
relies on your estimation of whether the project is getting closer to release or merely circling the plug hole waiting for its demise.What "you think" isn't what matches what people have said, perfect example of what I'm talking about.
"Is EQN Vaporware" is an open ended question without a right or wrong answer.
We may feel, believe, assume, think it is or isn't, but neither is correct as far as what will or is happening, unless there are some guidelines in place.
If VW = no progress for X amount of time or no word from company or whatever set concrete requirement, then we could actually answer the question more objectively.
As you said, it could manage to release, be it next year or 10 years from now. Seems pretty silly to call something doomed, canceled, or never materializing if it can in fact become reality at some point.
EQN was hyped for sure, but it wasn't really marketed and never had set time lines in place. Going by the 5 year average I see thrown around a lot, they have a couple more years going off the most recent iteration of the project.
Doesn't speak well for the company to take so long with so little of the game itself to show, but if people are going to hold them accountable for a product they have no actual stake in, they should also factor in all the other variables that have played a part in the time frame.
It is pretty easy to see why it has taken so long for anyone that has taken even a few minutes to look into the project. Does it excuse their lack of communication and what not? Not so much in my opinion.
As of today, EQN is being internally tested by the company, or at least says the leader of the pack. Also said it has the company's support and focus.
If we choose believe him or not, that's a personal decision and has nothing to do with the actual outcome.
But I'm not sure how people can call EQN doomed, canceled, or hasn't materialized if it is as far as we know, is in development, progressing, talked about fairly regularly (snore fest updates that they are), and without any pre-set time line, is still within the typical cookie cutter MMO time line.
It has as much chance to materialize as anything else currently announced but not released.
If the term Vaporware is simply "not released" then call it that, doesn't need a silly term open to interpretation.
Now if someone wants to agree that if it doesn't show it's face by June 21 2017 5pm PST then I'll see you then and will pull out the Vaporware Banner. Till then it is just assumption based on interpretation of "facts" based on history that may or may not have any impact on the current or future situation.
Going by that definition, everything currently announced but not released is Vaporware. Seems like a pretty ambiguous meaning, almost like it doesn't really mean anything of value.
But I can answer the question: Yes, No, Maybe, No idea. Pick one and you are right and wrong depending on who is in the conversation.
No EQN doesn’t have as much a chance to materialize as everything else. I just don’t understand the generalizing of everything surrounding this game in some effort to treat it as if what is happening to the project is somehow normal for every project.
It is like trying to force a standardized definition onto the word vaporware as if each game development project is identical and not to be judged for the specific events surrounding them.
All we really know currently is the developers verbally claim the game is being worked on and some random concept drawings here and there. Keep in mind this is the same group that claimed The Agency MMO was being worked on at least a year after most of the developers were platooned to other projects and the leadership of the project left.
If we stop trying to shoehorn in excuses and justifications for the problems and look at the entire picture, it becomes clear that almost everything has regressed as time goes on and the development does follow a pattern of games that ended up vaporware, cancelled or at best released in a condition so far away from what was promised they were laughing stocks and dead on arrival.
Less developers, less communication, less show, less confidence in their efforts. Really, think about what the team was doing a few years back with videos, gameplay discussion, discussing key features of the game, etc. Compare that to the void that exists now and try selling the notion that this project is progressing or anywhere near the same condition of other projects.
I fail to see any justification to suggest the game is progressing. The last year of development could be summed up as a racial model, some player made assets, concept art and some landmark discussions/letters that are for some reason branded as EQN material.
There are many valid reasons why people are concerned this game has become vaporware or whatever you want to call it. People didn’t just randomly select this game to pick on it for no reason.
Unless you are the final word on the matter in the industry, your opinion =/= fact. In your opinion EQN doesn't have a good chance, but that doesn't mean anything outside of your own mind.
I agree that what has/is happening is very abnormal, but not a ton of logic is required to figure it out.
But yes lets judge each project alone and not use such a vague term like VW as clearly it doesn't fit perfectly with everything.
SOE/DB are/were responsible for the The Agency and EQN, but totally different situations. An entire branch of the company closing is rather important part of The Agency story. As of yet, EQN dev's have a place to clock in every day. SOE/DB is also the company that made EQ, EQ2, SWG, PS/PS2, FR, DCUO, H1Z1, etc that did or are still doing okay. Things happen, welcome to reality. Poor decisions, business models, changes, etc impact things differently every time.
In my view, people are calling EQN VW because SOE set themselves up for it. They let a hype/PR men take the lead and unfortunately the actual product/team wasn't ready.
If we are going to look at what is "normal" we usually don't hear about a game until 2-3+ years into development sometimes. Sometimes even longer. Why is this? Because gamers act like children and want their toys now now now.
From what I can see, SOE had good intentions of getting fans input into the project ASAP because just pumping out another mmo wasn't going to cut it. Why not take what actual fans of their products want and try to make something that will turn a profit for years to come.
Early on it seemed just like that as they were getting ideas from fans during the SOE Lives for a couple years.
Unless I'm mistaken, this is way out of the norm for a big name company/game. So from the start it wasn't business as always.
1. ~2009-2012 - They were working on something that most likely would resemble EQ/EQ2/WoW depending on the features. Came to the conclusion that this wouldn't be good enough for what they wanted to do, be it profit-customers-actually doing something new, whatever and made a change.
2. Reworked the design overall, got new lead devs (except Rosie), changed pretty much every major aspect and headed down a new path. (Based on SOE Live comments, art, leaked footage, interviews, etc)
3. Post 2013 - Landmark is beyond a proof of concept of the foundation of EQN. Relatively speaking it is a Pre-Alpha state and is fully playable. I don't agree with double dipping like this, but too late now. They've shown the groundwork for multiple aspects of EQN itself as well (races, classes, skills, gear, environments, combat, yadda yadda).
4. Unfortunately due to shooting for the moon, their original plans have slowed, much of which appears to be tech related. Voxel Farm and Forgelight don't like each other and making fancy AI is not easy. Also by using Landmark as both a playground and test bed, I believe they've slowed their potential as well by "wasting" time on content of little value. Beyond making Combat not suck, nothing really earth shattering that any half way decent studio couldn't produce. On paper, the rest of the game is pretty run of the mill with maybe a bit more sparkle on it. Quests, Public Quests (Rally Calls), Quest Log (Rohsong), Achievements, NPCs/Mobs....just time and money.
5. Drama - New ownership, layoffs, new location, unknown behind the scenes business changes, etc. Again this is a pretty major snare in progress. Would love to see any of you have a chunk of your coworkers let go, move locations, new management mixing things up and have no impact at all. Been there, it isn't smooth sailing on day one.
6. While much of their "transparent" communication has all but vanished, they still keep active through the Workshops which despite not being what I want to see, do pertain to EQN and show they are moving forward one way or another.
7. Again, we can choose to believe them or not, but they say X is happening so it is what it is. If you personally don't believe them, that's on you. I read about things all the time that companies say they are making, the first thing that pops in my mind is rarely "That's not true, liars!" Really isn't that serious.
As I said, totally agree that they have cut the public out quite a lot. But if we go back to this "normal" thing, then they aren't really deviating from it very much. This would be about the time in "normal" development that companies would start opening up about much of which they've already shown. They jumped the gun and it is a double edged sword.
Hopefully the internal work/testing moves along smoothly and they get to a point that showing the public is given the go ahead, but I'm not holding my breath.
But for me, factoring everything that has happened and comparing it to other projects in the works, they really aren't "doomed" simply because they don't have fire side chats with people every day. They set up fans by hyping it all up at the start and then reality kicked in where it actually takes a ton of work/energy to actually produce a product.
Very easy for us to sit back and point out their flaws, but the hardest thing we are doing is typing our thoughts down. All the risk is on them. All the stress is on them. All the hours spent bent in the office is on them.
If EQN is doomed, so what? Pretty sure the sun will come up tomorrow just the same. If the few folks that still care come to agreement that EQN is Vaporware and doomed to fail, what then? Nothing changes. Either it happens or it doesn't, there is no logic, fact, proof one way or the other. It is completely subjective and our opinions don't matter.
I am curious what other upcoming games have a better chance and based on what criteria exactly. Looking around at the line up and drama that each has, seems pretty much like a dice roll to me.
Edit: Could you list a few Vaporware games that EQN is following the pattern of? Since you seem to base your opinions on historical evidence.
They also bought an unfinished project called EQN. They will know how much they are spending and have an estimate of how much more they need to spend to bring it to market. They will have an estimate of how much money EQN will make when launched.
Whilst the cost of bringing EQN to market + profit is less than what they estimate the game will make development will continue.
When the cost of development + profit is more they will - potentially - close it down.
They didn't close the game down when they bought SoE so they believe they can finish it - otherwise they would have closed it. There will be a limit however on what they will spend.
And doubt that they are doing it for the engine as that is a very tough market. EA have their own; AB wouldn't touch it and check out John Riccitiello's comments on how hard it is to get people to pay - he is CEO for one of the game engine companies these days.
Simple maths. Whilst they believe they can make a profit it continues. And it will have internal reviews. What can we do to help; what do you need to do what you say you are going to do reviews. And when the next review comes around if they have missed their own targets .... life won't be comfortable.
Unless they come up with a different way to monetize EQ:N and it's not part of that all access pass.
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
- Michael Bitton
Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about."
- SEANMCAD
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The Agency was also in internal alpha and that ended up as vaporware despite SOE saying the project was coming along fine.
All said and done there is nothing but verbal promises, which amount to very little.
Also, they are just testing basic systems. Starting cities are not even done yet, so not much of an alpha can be done.
MAGA
Pretty much similar to what they do now with expansions,they sell them then after about a year they are free to everyone.
They are making a killing on the TL servers because by time they release content there it will be super outdated,basically getting 15 buck sub fees for outdated content ,good deal there.
I seriously have no idea the size of team they had making EQ2,weather hired lots then let them go after completion but no way in hell could the team they have now come close to rivaling EQ2.This is why they have players from Landmark paying them to make assets lol.
What might not bother others that become embedded playing not caring but bothers me ,is after they do the early access release to basically sell an unfinished game,you will see VERY little go into it afterwards.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
- Michael Bitton
Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about."
- SEANMCAD
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