You fail to take in consideration of every sane person who has been around MMORPGs, yet instead insert your own naivety and non-caring attitude towards the development of this project.
Allow me to quote you, so that everyone may see your sly shift in perception as the "norm":
"This whole vaporware or whatever view seems to stem from the opinion that EQN should have reached a certain milestone by this time which unless I missed it, They've never presented" -Allein
Please understand, at no point in MMO history has a BIG game company presented a major MMORPG title (EverQuest Next @ SOE LIVE 2013) and 2.5 years later still not have an internal working copy, nor any actual playable asset. Let alone being in an official state of Vaporware.
Everyone at Daybreak is aware of this. There is no time frame, because the Company just admitted they have no idea how long their project is going to take. That is their official statement.
No real person can remain in such a state of denial, when reality has already reared it's head. You are willingly ignoring every tell-tale sign surrounding this project. Are you for real? Where is your guild? Where are all your friends?
Why are you the ONLY person within this community, who sees some special light? Does it pay well?
Really don't know what you are going on about.
I think for myself and am therefore naive? Didn't know being a blind hater/fanboi sheep was the cool thing these days. Although I'm pretty sure most on here are providing their opinion, not that of someone else. After 20+ years of online gaming, nothing really shocks me anymore.
Do I "care" about this project? Considering the majority of my posts have been about it and relatively positive, I'd say I care, but I'm not going to cry if it all falls apart. Pixels.
Unless you know more than the rest of us (all that insider info you have?) not sure how you can say they don't have an internal "working" copy. I don't know many games in the typical 5 year cycle that show off "working" copies 2.5 years in, but Landmark is a pretty decent example of what they have going and not bad compared to Alpha/Betas I've seen from other projects. Do they have 8 races, 40 classes, tons of mobs, etc? No clue, but that is the frosting on top of the cake, I'd rather they get the cake baked right before worrying about the sprinkles.
Considering what they are working with (Voxels for starters) and what I hope isn't another copy/paste of the EQ/WoW designs, I'm not shocked at the time it is taking. I don't know many AAA titles in the last few years that have done anything as adventurous, at least not that worked.
If it takes them another 5 years and it delivers, so what? I hope people aren't planning their futures around a video game. "But I already built a computer for a game I don't even know the specs for!!!!" /sigh
Are you personally being harmed with imaginary delay of this game? Really, some folks come off as if SOE/Daybreak has come into their homes and punched them in the face and took their lunch money. Don't like the company, product, or how any of it is handled? As said above, no one is holding a gun to your head. If you choose to follow and discuss what is going on and that causes you internal mental/physical anguish, might need to rethink priorities.
I'm a real person the last time I checked, but after this rambling, I still don't know what I'm in denial about. I don't agree with some definitions of a subjective buzzword like Vaporware? Sorry I guess?
I'd love to know what an "official state of vaporware" is and what committee you are on that determines this for everyone.
No clue how I'm the ONLY one with some special light, but if you mean a non pitchfork mentality, someone in this thread that makes up ~25% of the posts seems to see the light even better than myself.
As I've said, if the game turns out decent enough for me to try it, yay for me. If it doesn't, oh well. Just another game. I'd like it to be something worth investing my time/money into for a quality return in entertainment, but looking at Landmark's feature progress and the lack of details I'd personally like to see about EQN, my doubts are very strong.
But I guess I have my denial going for me?
Edit: Dang it, just realized you are the person that called Brad a luminary and savior and dubbed yourself a Baby Bell...
Got two quotes from you that are interesting though, even being out of context:
"This game is not for everyone. Funny how everyone wants to make it about them."
"You bring up a lot of questions of the past, and make a lot of points. But none of them matter, as they are not based on TODAYs world, or marketplace."
When it comes to Pantheon and Brad's past, disregard, when it comes to EQN and Daybreak, lets compare to everything that has come before.
Then again, if I start talking poorly about what you like, I'm going to be addicted to it when it surely is released in the near future as nothing questionable has happened or matters if it has or hasn't. Logic accepted and understood.
No clue how I'm the ONLY one with some special light, but if you mean a non pitchfork mentality, someone in this thread that makes up ~25% of the posts seems to see the light even better than myself.
That just supports the theory that delusion is somehow contagious.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
IMO this is great news. This is the first step in keeping their word to make 2015 the year of EQN. Also love that pic =-) More pls
What are you quoting when you say "the year of 2015?"
Can't remember if I've actually read/heard them say that or just saw you type it so many times it has become reality.
I know they for sure said that they'd show more of EQN this year and the focus would shift from LM to EQN, which are both true depending on how we want to interpret their meaning, but I don't remember them saying what specifically would make 2015 overly special. Believe they jokingly answered someone's question during a SOE Live panel that we wouldn't have to wait until SOE Live 2015 to hear more about classes (which hasn't happened), but beyond that I don't know what else they "promised" or not.
I will look for it, was said by the developers and has been commented about on reddit and even pod casts. Just google "year of everquest next" in quotes like that. If I remember right it was said last years somewhere shortly after SoE was sold and I think it was Terry who said it. Didnt seem like an off hand remark at the time but it feels like it now lol. I dont have time this weekend to look for it but I will next week.
What promises or big claims did they make that they haven't met?
As I asked Nanfoodle above, while I don't doubt the "year of EQN" comment, it doesn't really mean anything, also as you commented above. Beyond a release that blows people away, I'm not sure I'd claim an entire year for a game that is just starting to become the focus of the team.
They've actually been pretty smart putting everything on Landmark and even it has a hard go around, if EQN some how comes out in a year or two and is great, LM's history won't really matter to anyone beyond the small group of folks that were committed to it.
This whole vaporware or whatever view seems to stem from the opinion that EQN should have reached a certain milestone by this time which unless I missed it, they've never presented. Technically speaking, EQN isn't delayed or taking a long time even, as there haven't been any real time frames set.
Due to the companies history it is easy to have little faith in the possibility of things not working out, but that doesn't apply to EQN specifically.
Six months ago people were speculating how Daybreak was going to make all these big announcements/reveals about the game and all the wonderful things going to happen, because 2015 was going to be the year of EQN.
Six months into 2015 and that message has is now changing into, well they didn't promise anything and we don't know what their claims actually meant.
I'm pretty sure I know what the comments will be when 2016 rolls along, but hopefully something changes to make 2015 the year of EQN.
I don't think Landmark and EQN's history are going to be two separate things. Eventually the curtain has to be pulled back and everyone is going to see that EQN is Landmark and visa versa.
I think the whole vaporware opinion stems from a game that has been in development for nearly 8 years and comparing that to similar projects that have ended up the same way. It isn't like this game has infinite amounts of time to be developed and that people have unrealistic expectations.
Honest question, how many more years do you think EQN has before Columbus Nova says enough is enough, give us returns on our investment? Also, how many years do you think the game is away from a release that might possibly end up resulting in a "great" game? I'm not talking about the typical "anything is possible" I'm talking about personal opinion based on what we currently know.
You fail to take in consideration of every sane person who has been around MMORPGs, yet instead insert your own naivety and non-caring attitude towards the development of this project.
Allow me to quote you, so that everyone may see your sly shift in perception as the "norm":
"This whole vaporware or whatever view seems to stem from the opinion that EQN should have reached a certain milestone by this time which unless I missed it, They've never presented" -Allein
Please understand, at no point in MMO history has a BIG game company presented a major MMORPG title (EverQuest Next @ SOE LIVE 2013) and 2.5 years later still not have an internal working copy, nor any actual playable asset. Let alone being in an official state of Vaporware.
Everyone at Daybreak is aware of this. There is no time frame, because the Company just admitted they have no idea how long their project is going to take. That is their official statement.
No real person can remain in such a state of denial, when reality has already reared it's head. You are willingly ignoring every tell-tale sign surrounding this project. Are you for real? Where is your guild? Where are all your friends?
Why are you the ONLY person within this community, who sees some special light? Does it pay well?
Really don't know what you are going on about.
I think for myself and am therefore naive? Didn't know being a blind hater/fanboi sheep was the cool thing these days. Although I'm pretty sure most on here are providing their opinion, not that of someone else. After 20+ years of online gaming, nothing really shocks me anymore.
Do I "care" about this project? Considering the majority of my posts have been about it and relatively positive, I'd say I care, but I'm not going to cry if it all falls apart. Pixels.
Unless you know more than the rest of us (all that insider info you have?) not sure how you can say they don't have an internal "working" copy. I don't know many games in the typical 5 year cycle that show off "working" copies 2.5 years in, but Landmark is a pretty decent example of what they have going and not bad compared to Alpha/Betas I've seen from other projects. Do they have 8 races, 40 classes, tons of mobs, etc? No clue, but that is the frosting on top of the cake, I'd rather they get the cake baked right before worrying about the sprinkles.
Considering what they are working with (Voxels for starters) and what I hope isn't another copy/paste of the EQ/WoW designs, I'm not shocked at the time it is taking. I don't know many AAA titles in the last few years that have done anything as adventurous, at least not that worked.
If it takes them another 5 years and it delivers, so what? I hope people aren't planning their futures around a video game. "But I already built a computer for a game I don't even know the specs for!!!!" /sigh
Are you personally being harmed with imaginary delay of this game? Really, some folks come off as if SOE/Daybreak has come into their homes and punched them in the face and took their lunch money. Don't like the company, product, or how any of it is handled? As said above, no one is holding a gun to your head. If you choose to follow and discuss what is going on and that causes you internal mental/physical anguish, might need to rethink priorities.
I'm a real person the last time I checked, but after this rambling, I still don't know what I'm in denial about. I don't agree with some definitions of a subjective buzzword like Vaporware? Sorry I guess?
I'd love to know what an "official state of vaporware" is and what committee you are on that determines this for everyone.
No clue how I'm the ONLY one with some special light, but if you mean a non pitchfork mentality, someone in this thread that makes up ~25% of the posts seems to see the light even better than myself.
As I've said, if the game turns out decent enough for me to try it, yay for me. If it doesn't, oh well. Just another game. I'd like it to be something worth investing my time/money into for a quality return in entertainment, but looking at Landmark's feature progress and the lack of details I'd personally like to see about EQN, my doubts are very strong.
But I guess I have my denial going for me?
Edit: Dang it, just realized you are the person that called Brad a luminary and savior and dubbed yourself a Baby Bell...
Got two quotes from you that are interesting though, even being out of context:
"This game is not for everyone. Funny how everyone wants to make it about them."
"You bring up a lot of questions of the past, and make a lot of points. But none of them matter, as they are not based on TODAYs world, or marketplace."
When it comes to Pantheon and Brad's past, disregard, when it comes to EQN and Daybreak, lets compare to everything that has come before.
Then again, if I start talking poorly about what you like, I'm going to be addicted to it when it surely is released in the near future as nothing questionable has happened or matters if it has or hasn't. Logic accepted and understood.
Allow me to quote your ignorance:
"Unless you know more than the rest of us (all that insider info you have?) not sure how you can say they don't have an internal "working" copy. I don't know many games in the typical 5 year cycle that show off "working" copies 2.5 years in, but Landmark is a pretty decent example of what they have going and not bad compared to Alpha/Betas I've seen from other projects. Do they have 8 races, 40 classes, tons of mobs, etc? No clue, but that is the frosting on top of the cake, I'd rather they get the cake baked right before worrying about the sprinkles."
I can say Daybreak does not have an internal working copy of EverQuest Next, because it is true.
The game is officially in a state of Vaporware. I am not going to repeat myself, you can educate yourself. But please start at the latest press release. John Smedley is in a rush to put the haggard pieces together and prove me wrong. Because the term "vaporware" hangs over his head.
Secondly, read your own posts. In nearly every paragraph you claim you don't know something and end up yammering. (ie: "but that is the frosting on top of the cake, I'd rather they get the cake baked right before worrying about the sprinkles.")
Frosting on the cake is your Development plan?
In essence is, You have illustrated the extent of your knowledge. You are either super ignorant and super excited, because that is who you are (as a person), Or have an agenda counter to the wishes of the community.
Only speak about things you know of.
Don't take people's words and sly-shift them into a mash of words to try and rebuttal known facts? Several others have called you out on the same tactic. It doesn't work, we are not little children here.
Refute my words, not me. You have just said to this entire community, that you are unaware of any game company that has produces an alpha version (playable) within 2.5 years of development?
Let alone have an internal server running the actual code and game client? I can not think of another game that did not!, except EQN. I will be as happy as you when EverQuest Next reaches pre-alpha. I just don't think John can prove his worth, and he will end up making Landmark Universe instead.
As for Brad McQuaid? Here. I am sure you will see he has more to say about his product, than John Smedley. That is why people are following Pantheon. Because it has wheels.
You fail to take in consideration of every sane person who has been around MMORPGs, yet instead insert your own naivety and non-caring attitude towards the development of this project.
Allow me to quote you, so that everyone may see your sly shift in perception as the "norm":
"This whole vaporware or whatever view seems to stem from the opinion that EQN should have reached a certain milestone by this time which unless I missed it, They've never presented" -Allein
Please understand, at no point in MMO history has a BIG game company presented a major MMORPG title (EverQuest Next @ SOE LIVE 2013) and 2.5 years later still not have an internal working copy, nor any actual playable asset. Let alone being in an official state of Vaporware.
Everyone at Daybreak is aware of this. There is no time frame, because the Company just admitted they have no idea how long their project is going to take. That is their official statement.
No real person can remain in such a state of denial, when reality has already reared it's head. You are willingly ignoring every tell-tale sign surrounding this project. Are you for real? Where is your guild? Where are all your friends?
Why are you the ONLY person within this community, who sees some special light? Does it pay well?
Really don't know what you are going on about.
I think for myself and am therefore naive? Didn't know being a blind hater/fanboi sheep was the cool thing these days. Although I'm pretty sure most on here are providing their opinion, not that of someone else. After 20+ years of online gaming, nothing really shocks me anymore.
Do I "care" about this project? Considering the majority of my posts have been about it and relatively positive, I'd say I care, but I'm not going to cry if it all falls apart. Pixels.
Unless you know more than the rest of us (all that insider info you have?) not sure how you can say they don't have an internal "working" copy. I don't know many games in the typical 5 year cycle that show off "working" copies 2.5 years in, but Landmark is a pretty decent example of what they have going and not bad compared to Alpha/Betas I've seen from other projects. Do they have 8 races, 40 classes, tons of mobs, etc? No clue, but that is the frosting on top of the cake, I'd rather they get the cake baked right before worrying about the sprinkles.
Considering what they are working with (Voxels for starters) and what I hope isn't another copy/paste of the EQ/WoW designs, I'm not shocked at the time it is taking. I don't know many AAA titles in the last few years that have done anything as adventurous, at least not that worked.
If it takes them another 5 years and it delivers, so what? I hope people aren't planning their futures around a video game. "But I already built a computer for a game I don't even know the specs for!!!!" /sigh
Are you personally being harmed with imaginary delay of this game? Really, some folks come off as if SOE/Daybreak has come into their homes and punched them in the face and took their lunch money. Don't like the company, product, or how any of it is handled? As said above, no one is holding a gun to your head. If you choose to follow and discuss what is going on and that causes you internal mental/physical anguish, might need to rethink priorities.
I'm a real person the last time I checked, but after this rambling, I still don't know what I'm in denial about. I don't agree with some definitions of a subjective buzzword like Vaporware? Sorry I guess?
I'd love to know what an "official state of vaporware" is and what committee you are on that determines this for everyone.
No clue how I'm the ONLY one with some special light, but if you mean a non pitchfork mentality, someone in this thread that makes up ~25% of the posts seems to see the light even better than myself.
As I've said, if the game turns out decent enough for me to try it, yay for me. If it doesn't, oh well. Just another game. I'd like it to be something worth investing my time/money into for a quality return in entertainment, but looking at Landmark's feature progress and the lack of details I'd personally like to see about EQN, my doubts are very strong.
But I guess I have my denial going for me?
Edit: Dang it, just realized you are the person that called Brad a luminary and savior and dubbed yourself a Baby Bell...
Got two quotes from you that are interesting though, even being out of context:
"This game is not for everyone. Funny how everyone wants to make it about them."
"You bring up a lot of questions of the past, and make a lot of points. But none of them matter, as they are not based on TODAYs world, or marketplace."
When it comes to Pantheon and Brad's past, disregard, when it comes to EQN and Daybreak, lets compare to everything that has come before.
Then again, if I start talking poorly about what you like, I'm going to be addicted to it when it surely is released in the near future as nothing questionable has happened or matters if it has or hasn't. Logic accepted and understood.
Allow me to quote your ignorance:
"Unless you know more than the rest of us (all that insider info you have?) not sure how you can say they don't have an internal "working" copy. I don't know many games in the typical 5 year cycle that show off "working" copies 2.5 years in, but Landmark is a pretty decent example of what they have going and not bad compared to Alpha/Betas I've seen from other projects. Do they have 8 races, 40 classes, tons of mobs, etc? No clue, but that is the frosting on top of the cake, I'd rather they get the cake baked right before worrying about the sprinkles."
I can say Daybreak does not have an internal working copy of EverQuest Next, because it is true.
The game is officially in a state of Vaporware. I am not going to repeat myself, you can educate yourself. But please start at the latest press release. John Smedley is in a rush to put the haggard pieces together and prove me wrong. Because the term "vaporware" hangs over his head.
Secondly, read your own posts. In nearly every paragraph you claim you don't know something and end up yammering. (ie: "but that is the frosting on top of the cake, I'd rather they get the cake baked right before worrying about the sprinkles.")
Frosting on the cake is your Development plan?
In essence is, You have illustrated the extent of your knowledge. You are either super ignorant and super excited, because that is who you are (as a person), Or have an agenda counter to the wishes of the community.
Only speak about things you know of.
Don't take people's words and sly-shift them into a mash of words to try and rebuttal known facts? Several others have called you out on the same tactic. It doesn't work, we are not little children here.
Refute my words, not me. You have just said to this entire community, that you are unaware of any game company that has produces an alpha version (playable) within 2.5 years of development?
Let alone have an internal server running the actual code and game client? I can not think of another game that did not!, except EQN. I will be as happy as you when EverQuest Next reaches pre-alpha. I just don't think John can prove his worth, and he will end up making Landmark Universe instead.
As for Brad McQuaid? Here. I am sure you will see he has more to say about his product, than John Smedley. That is why people are following Pantheon. Because it has wheels.
Ok, so first of all, let's clear up some facts. Vaporware is, specifically, a product that is announced but just vanishes without being heard from again and without official cancellation. Soooo, asserting EQN is vaporware is premature. That's fact. Secondly, If this is your classification of vaporware then Pantheon is also vaporware. Their goal for 2015 is an Alpha build of levels 1-10. That's a far cry from a full game.
John Smedley proving his worth? Well, good luck. He hasn't been wildly successful at that yet and will probably never live it down. However, Brad is no better, really. Both characters will live on in infamy for their inability to complete their Cinderella products. Yes, I'm saying it. Even if Pantheon is actually released, it's no longer Brad's baby because he didn't drive it over the finish line. It may be his creative vision, but he's proven to be nothing short of a horrible project/company leader.
Finally, Pantheon has about as many "wheels" as EQN at the moment. The goal of Pantheon is to have an Alpha 1 for 2015 which means that they probably have just as many knowledge gaps to fill in as EQN at this point. If you've ever worked on a game, or software product even. Shoot! If you've ever followed a game... ever! It's a well-known fact that there are plenty of obstacles which can block a product, from technical to financial. So asserting that Pantheon somehow has this all figured out and, in one year, they'll implement all these innovative features, it's quite a stretch.
So before you walk around accusing others of being ignorant, you better make sure that you've got some serious, factual evidence of your own to back up your statements.
Six months ago people were speculating how Daybreak was going to make all these big announcements/reveals about the game and all the wonderful things going to happen, because 2015 was going to be the year of EQN.
Six months into 2015 and that message has is now changing into, well they didn't promise anything and we don't know what their claims actually meant.
I'm pretty sure I know what the comments will be when 2016 rolls along, but hopefully something changes to make 2015 the year of EQN.
If it does it does, if it does not it matter little. They make a good game, people will play it =-)
I don't think Landmark and EQN's history are going to be two separate things. Eventually the curtain has to be pulled back and everyone is going to see that EQN is Landmark and visa versa.
Video I linked below says something very different. Two different games with each their own time lime. Right now Landmarks focus will be to build EQN. The props and tools. Once thats done you will see Landmark walk in a direction that will make it unique. SciFi as well as Fantasy. They have also talked about letting people start building as they do in Minecraft and many other ways as well mentioned in Landmark streams. On a scale as big as people want. Right now, that kinda of stuff has to wait.
I think the whole vaporware opinion stems from a game that has been in development for nearly 8 years and comparing that to similar projects that have ended up the same way. It isn't like this game has infinite amounts of time to be developed and that people have unrealistic expectations.
Honest question, how many more years do you think EQN has before Columbus Nova says enough is enough, give us returns on our investment? Also, how many years do you think the game is away from a release that might possibly end up resulting in a "great" game? I'm not talking about the typical "anything is possible" I'm talking about personal opinion based on what we currently know.
First off, as told to you before. We have no clue how far developed the first 2 iterations on EQN were. For all we know a game close to beta or not much more then white board work and concept art. My guess is the latter seeing what they had walking into this iteration of EQN. Heck they didnt even have much in the way of concept art for the races. When Landmark builders were asking for sizes for doorways. They said hold on, we need to figure that out. Few weeks later we get concept art and voxel measurements. But thats all we can do is guess on that topic. You have no facts and we have no facts. At best its been an idea for 8 years.
As for when they say enough is enough. Watch the video below. That dev team does not feel rushed about LAndmark or EQN. "We will be ready when we are ready" They said many things saying that they are here till they get it right. They are open with the gamers that EQN is an RD project for the most part. I am sure CN knew this before they bought SoE. Do they have deadlines? My guess is yes. Would the dead lines take into account EQN is an RD project. My guess again would be yes. Sit back and relax, my guess this is going to take a while =-)
I would call this one big train wreck, but the train and tracks have never been ready. This whole project, including Landmark, should've been scrapped when Daybreak took over.
I don't know how that's an education. Also, you're still asserting that EQN does not exist, when they probably have more "pieces" than Pantheon. Again, Vaporware is something that is announced and never materializes. So you can't say something is vaporware when it hasn't even passed it's release date. Let me educate you.
Vaporware:
Starcraft: Ghost
Project Copernicus
Warcraft Adventures (this one still hurts me)
Agent
There IS a difference and while I'm sorry to say, but your definition doesn't agree with the Internet.
Oh, and you can be sure that they most certainly DO have a server running at Daybreak. They already have a networking infrastructure from a myriad of games, including Landmark which may as well be EQN-lite. If you think that they aren't going to port the Landmark server architecture to be recycled for EQN you're truly naive.
We have no clue how far developed the first 2 iterations on EQN were..
I doesn't really matter how the 8 years are divided up between the three attempts to make EQN. The results are still the same.
Same question though: how many more years do you think this project has and how many years away from completion do you think it is?
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
At best its been an idea for 8 years.
This pretty much sums up why people think this game will end up as vaporware or a total bust.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Right now Landmarks focus will be to build EQN. The props and tools. Once thats done you will see Landmark walk in a direction that will make it unique.
Agree that Landmark is a different game in name only. Maybe in the future they become different games, but that seems like speculation at this point.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
They make a good game, people will play it =-)
They have made a game and it isn't good and less the 50 people log on to play it at peak hours. That really is the only fact that matters right now.
Maybe in the future something happens and it becomes better or a vastly different game, but right now it isn't.
As for when they say enough is enough. Watch the video below. That dev team does not feel rushed about LAndmark or EQN. "We will be ready when we are ready" They said many things saying that they are here till they get it right. They are open with the gamers that EQN is an RD project for the most part. I am sure CN knew this before they bought SoE. Do they have deadlines? My guess is yes. Would the dead lines take into account EQN is an RD project. My guess again would be yes. Sit back and relax, my guess this is going to take a while =-)
Again, you attempt to use a video from February 2015 to support your assertion that the EQ:N project is on schedule. That information has aged, badly. Specifically, the most recent release (the one this thread references) stating that they are shifting focus from Landmark to EQ:N suggests that something has changed, pretty drastically. My guess is that they really didn't have deadlines, but now they do. Hard deadlines. No more lollygagging-type deadlines.
Modern R&D projects in the real (non-Daybreak) world have plenty of deadlines. It is always a matter of show something by this date or we will shelve the project and move on. Miss a deadline, and funding goes away. It isn't about bumbling around blindly hoping to discover something. R&D is very directed intellectual pursuit.
From all evidence, SOE and Sony treated EQ:N the same way a scientist in the 1700s would have, basically someone went away to hope the shed didn't blow up before the money ran out. If something amazing happened, fine. All too often, though, there was a sale on partially blasted wood and masonry. Now, CN comes along and abruptly imposes real-world deadlines on SOE, now Daybreak. SOE have 'sold' (or tried to sell) EQ:N as a viable product, not as industry research into MMORPG concepts and emerging technology. You appear to be saying that everything is okay, because EQ:N really is and always has been a research project. CN appears to be throwing that idea out on its ear, the new deadlines are stating to the development team (and quite probably, the entire remaining management structure inherited from SOE) to produce or the money goes away.
Maybe CN really are treating this as an "Investigations Into Future Technologies And Emergent Game Play That May Be Applicable To MMORPG Development". (You have to admit, that would make a nifty dissertation / thesis title). But as to the previous open-ended do-what-you-like approach, CN is clearly putting a foot down -- either produce or else. What that 'else' might be, I only have guesses (restaff and continue, restart with new staff, purchase and rename, abandon development, or something else) with no clear idea which direction that CN might lean.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
It may release, it may not. Whether that makes it "vapourware" is a point that can then be discussed. The Agency was a real game, for example, before SoE cancelled it.
What I find telling in the letter is they are not prepared to commit to a timetable. Now if Blizzard says something like that no big deal; less so when it comes from DBG when you factor in SoE's recent history (condensed version):
2007 SoE "rescue" VSoH; some Sigil staff, c. 50 reported, hired to work on The Agency and VSoH.
2009: SoE announced 41 staff laid off; 5% of the company.
2010: SoE confirmed 35 lay-offs; just over 4% of staff. Resource re-alignment. EQN in "early" development.
2011: SoE announced 205 staff laid off; Seattle, Denver, Tuscon studios closed. Resource alignment. The Agency cancelled. (Also the end of SWG but - presumably -licence not renewed.)
2013: Further lay-offs; number unconfirmed but put at c. 200, about 100 from CS and QA and some temporary staff. To align costs with revenue. Smed subsequently advised: no impact on existing games and that people could expect EQN to be "ramping up". A 2014 release date for EQN announced.
2014: Free Realms; Vanguard; Clone Wars; Wizardry closed (decreasing player numbers, VSoH had been losing money). Sony write off $60M. Staff moved to other games. Smed states that EQN will absolutely be coming to PS4. Also touted a new game that former SWG players would absolutely love and new expansions for EQ1 and EQ2.
2015. The sell off. Further lay-offs; numbers unconfirmed but reports of 250 / 54% of the staff being cut numbers including temporary staff as in 2013.
So, in less than a decade, SoE has gone from an "expanding" company having c. 820 staff at the start of 2009 0to c. 200 now based on reports..
A series of staff reductions to align costs with revenue and strategically align resource. And a big ramp up on EQN mentioned several times.
As others have said if it happens it happens. And if its a good game it will have a chance. I don't think anyone woul be surprised however - based on past history - if they fail to release the game. Closing games and "re-aligning" staff every year will take its toll on those who are left; and I would be surprised if those left were not keeping one eye on the vacancy lists.
And all of that makes it "harder" to bring a concept to fruition. Not being able to give a date may simply be because the person working on X left last week, those working on Y left the week before and as yet there are no replacements!
It amazes me the amount of time/effort/energy that people put into decrying something. I am just going to sit and wait until something happens. Eventually we will get a cancellation notice or something else...no point in all of this speculation.
They have made a game and it isn't good and less the 50 people log on to play it at peak hours. That really is the only fact that matters right now.
Maybe in the future something happens and it becomes better or a vastly different game, but right now it isn't.
Where do you get these numbers? Steam? Most people who bought the game from the start bought it from SoE direct because if you did, you can get a refund at any time. Steam didnt even sell Landmark till much later in its closed beta phase. Unless you are saying you have insider info? I play Landmark and its not nearly as barren as some like you post. And what does this have to do with EQN being a good game or not? Landmark as well is only a shell of what they are making it to be. Landmark is in closed beta and still testing Alpha systems. EQN is not even in beta. So how you judge a product I have no clue.
Where do you get these numbers? Steam? Most people who bought the game from the start bought it from SoE direct because if you did, you can get a refund at any time. Steam didnt even sell Landmark till much later in its closed beta phase. Unless you are saying you have insider info? I play Landmark and its not nearly as barren as some like you post. And what does this have to do with EQN being a good game or not? Landmark as well is only a shell of what they are making it to be. Landmark is in closed beta and still testing Alpha systems. EQN is not even in beta. So how you judge a product I have no clue.
Yes from Steam. Landmark went from an average of 700+ players to less than 40.
How do you know most people bought Landmark from SOE? Where do you get your numbers from to make such claims? Steam is the dominate source for PC games. So much so that SOE/Daybreak only sells H1Z1 on steam. I'm sure they didn't throw away 30% of their income to make it exclusive to steam. The evidence speaks directly against what you think is happening.
As for Landmark being a shell of what EQN might be someday, ok. Someday that might become true, however anyone can watch the progress and proficiency of work done on Landmark which currently is EQN.
Where do you get these numbers? Steam? Most people who bought the game from the start bought it from SoE direct because if you did, you can get a refund at any time. Steam didnt even sell Landmark till much later in its closed beta phase. Unless you are saying you have insider info? I play Landmark and its not nearly as barren as some like you post. And what does this have to do with EQN being a good game or not? Landmark as well is only a shell of what they are making it to be. Landmark is in closed beta and still testing Alpha systems. EQN is not even in beta. So how you judge a product I have no clue.
How do you know most people bought Landmark from SOE? Where do you get your numbers from to make such claims?
As I said above, Steam didnt get Landmark till much later. In Landmark most people I talk to say they bought it from DGC because of the refund or to make sure they supported DGC directly. When Steam got it and started selling it for cheap with deals, we got a flood on new people and I kept playing with the same people. Months later, most of the Steam crowd left. Leaving for the most part the people who bought it from SoE direct. When people in Landmark get friends to come join, they often suggest they get it from DGC direct. Steams numbers are good for most games but not all. In the end, I dont have numbers, its just what it seems from my play time and talking to friends in Landmark.
Where do you get these numbers? Steam? Most people who bought the game from the start bought it from SoE direct because if you did, you can get a refund at any time. Steam didnt even sell Landmark till much later in its closed beta phase. Unless you are saying you have insider info? I play Landmark and its not nearly as barren as some like you post. And what does this have to do with EQN being a good game or not? Landmark as well is only a shell of what they are making it to be. Landmark is in closed beta and still testing Alpha systems. EQN is not even in beta. So how you judge a product I have no clue.
Yes from Steam. Landmark went from an average of 700+ players to less than 40.
How do you know most people bought Landmark from SOE? Where do you get your numbers from to make such claims? Steam is the dominate source for PC games. So much so that SOE/Daybreak only sells H1Z1 on steam. I'm sure they didn't throw away 30% of their income to make it exclusive to steam. The evidence speaks directly against what you think is happening.
As for Landmark being a shell of what EQN might be someday, ok. Someday that might become true, however anyone can watch the progress and proficiency of work done on Landmark which currently is EQN.
Pretty easy to judge what is available.
I think LM access was up for purchase before going to steam. I may be wrong since it has been awhile. I know I bought it from SOE. However the population has never been strong and when it had a spike of players it was due to a content patch or the wipe which quickly faded.
I am very skeptical of Landmark actually lasting past this year.
They said at the start of the year that they were moving focus to EQN and now they said it again recently. Not sure why they thought it required another announcement. Anyways I hope they realize that they need to show something this year. People were expecting a lot of information at last years SOE ( which I think isnt going to happen anymore ) and got literally nothing. It is long past time to show something.
As I said above, Steam didnt get Landmark till much later. In Landmark most people I talk to say they bought it from DGC because of the refund or to make sure they supported DGC directly. When Steam got it and started selling it for cheap with deals, we got a flood on new people and I kept playing with the same people. Months later, most of the Steam crowd left. Leaving for the most part the people who bought it from SoE direct. When people in Landmark get friends to come join, they often suggest they get it from DGC direct. Steams numbers are good for most games but not all. In the end, I dont have numbers, its just what it seems from my play time and talking to friends in Landmark.
I'm not knocking your personal experience with the people you interact with, but it is anecdotal sample size of 1.
For sake of discussion, lets assume it was a 10:1 ratio of SOE vs Steam sales... that would still be a server of a few hundred people.
The point was if they make a great game people will play it. It doesn't seem like people think it is great or are playing it.
Personally I think this message hit home with the developers very hard and why they went silent.
Personally I think this message hit home with the developers very hard and why they went silent.
That seems reasonable. CN took a look at revenue and actual players from both direct sales and Steam (and any other venture they may have in other countries) and put the edict down. Basically, a produce-what-you've-advertised mandate to the development team. Less talk, more code.
I'm hoping this 'new focus' and any implied / assumed / stated consequences applies to the upper management. For entirely too long, Smedley has been a rather laid-back, non-pressure manager from everything visible to the outside world. Putting his salary / bonus / position on the line could be a very good thing for Daybreak. A change from the laissez-faire attitude that seems to permeate all the old videos that Nanfoodle can find might actually help the prospects for this game.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Six months ago people were speculating how Daybreak was going to make all these big announcements/reveals about the game and all the wonderful things going to happen, because 2015 was going to be the year of EQN.
Six months into 2015 and that message has is now changing into, well they didn't promise anything and we don't know what their claims actually meant.
I'm pretty sure I know what the comments will be when 2016 rolls along, but hopefully something changes to make 2015 the year of EQN.
I don't think Landmark and EQN's history are going to be two separate things. Eventually the curtain has to be pulled back and everyone is going to see that EQN is Landmark and visa versa.
I think the whole vaporware opinion stems from a game that has been in development for nearly 8 years and comparing that to similar projects that have ended up the same way. It isn't like this game has infinite amounts of time to be developed and that people have unrealistic expectations.
Honest question, how many more years do you think EQN has before Columbus Nova says enough is enough, give us returns on our investment? Also, how many years do you think the game is away from a release that might possibly end up resulting in a "great" game? I'm not talking about the typical "anything is possible" I'm talking about personal opinion based on what we currently know.
I'd give it another 2 years if I was paying the checks, also assuming that they have something to show the check writers which may or may not be available to the general public. Lets not assume that CN is a bunch of morons and is just writing blank checks to Daybreak.
While I totally get the view that 8+ years or whatever is a long time to be working on a project, even with restarts, it is what it is and there is no official rule book that states how long a game has to take.
Wildstar 9 years, despite its present state, plenty of folks were really excited for it. They simply didn't announce it the same way SOE did and it wasn't as big a deal. I'm sure I could dig up some others that took a while, but I don't really see the importance, but going over X time frame doesn't force vaporware status forever instantly.
All that matters to me is the final product. If there isn't one, hey, you can say I told you so, currently all you and I can do is talk out our rear ends about what we think, believe, hope, predict, assume, whatever. None of us have any actual proof or facts to back it up. "But it has taken 8 years!" is not proof of anything beyond it taking that long.
They did say that we'd have more info on EQN this year, but weren't super specific beyond more info on classes, which may or may not happen. Considering some companies (Blizzard) have huge annual events where they release all new stuff in a small time frame, Daybreak could still do something of the sort, even if SOE Live isn't going to happen. Plenty of ways to get information to the public (look around at this internet thing).
I'll still go with my comment that they haven't technically missed any deadlines. If 2016 rolls around and all we have are the boring Workshops, clearly it wasn't "the year of EQN" at least not publicly. Then again, I'd bet those comments were made before Daybreak existed and SOE Live was canceled and.....
Funny that when the drama happened many said EQN was canceled due to the layoffs and what not. Now that it clearly is still being developed, all that happened isn't supposed to factor in at all and they should maintain anything they said despite losing part of the team, moving offices, possibly refocusing due to new ownership, etc. As always, whatever is convenient to the loudest folks.
I can say Daybreak does not have an internal working copy of EverQuest Next, because it is true.
The game is officially in a state of Vaporware. I am not going to repeat myself, you can educate yourself. But please start at the latest press release. John Smedley is in a rush to put the haggard pieces together and prove me wrong. Because the term "vaporware" hangs over his head.
Secondly, read your own posts. In nearly every paragraph you claim you don't know something and end up yammering. (ie: "but that is the frosting on top of the cake, I'd rather they get the cake baked right before worrying about the sprinkles.")
Frosting on the cake is your Development plan?
In essence is, You have illustrated the extent of your knowledge. You are either super ignorant and super excited, because that is who you are (as a person), Or have an agenda counter to the wishes of the community.
Only speak about things you know of.
Don't take people's words and sly-shift them into a mash of words to try and rebuttal known facts? Several others have called you out on the same tactic. It doesn't work, we are not little children here.
Refute my words, not me. You have just said to this entire community, that you are unaware of any game company that has produces an alpha version (playable) within 2.5 years of development?
Let alone have an internal server running the actual code and game client? I can not think of another game that did not!, except EQN. I will be as happy as you when EverQuest Next reaches pre-alpha. I just don't think John can prove his worth, and he will end up making Landmark Universe instead.
As for Brad McQuaid? Here. I am sure you will see he has more to say about his product, than John Smedley. That is why people are following Pantheon. Because it has wheels.
Sigh don't know why I feed folks like you...
How do you know it is true?
Guess I missed the memo where you were elected buzzword master of the internet. If you believe Vaporware is something that doesn't exist, awesome, I disagree. Why would there even need to be a term for such a thing, kind of defeats the purpose for me. Do we call games that have been released Realware, ReleasedWare, Solidware?
Landmark is EQN's "alpha". SOE/Daybreak has not hid this. They have said that their development cycle is not like other games because they are double dipping and testing mechanics/features in one game before they are used in another. Again, there is no clear meaning of "alpha" "beta" they could call it Carrot Cart #4 if they felt like it. You have no say in the matter.
I'll speak on what I know and that is unless you work for Daybreak or not and are leaking information, you don't know what you are talking about. Nothing you've said shows your vast knowledge of anything.
I can't prove EQN in any form outside of Landmark exists, nor can you prove it doesn't, not sure why your lack of proof overrides mine.
As I said, Landmark is a pretty decent "alpha" for EQN, quite better than I've seen for other popular games in some ways. But again it goes back to "what is an alpha" which we aren't going to agree on.
Those sprinkles and frosting that I speak of are usually not the most difficult aspect to getting a game going. If a studio can't make different races or a bunch of skills they shouldn't be in the business.
If they struggle to incorporate Voxels and other tech to work in a proper manner, I'd understand, but still think it would be a waste of time/money to not have some sort of working model before announcing it. Which they did, but clearly a very early model.
You are right that Brad has more to say about HIS project. EQN is a company project, there is no visionary lone leader taking all the credit or the fall for the mistakes, nor has EQN attempted and failed at crowdfunding itself either. Crowfall (funded) looks a heck of a lot better than Pantheon at this stage and shows more promise than EQN in my eyes. Amazing what having a decent leader(s) and the right product can do.
Brad was a large part of EQ so I thank him for that, but he is not my savior or someone with a long track record of amazing games. EQ, VG, Pantheon really aren't huge leaps from one another and considering the simplicity of EQ, mess that was VG, and so far very shaky history of Pantheon, I wouldn't put him so high up on a pedestal like you do, but that's your deal.
I'm glad he's there trying to produce something to please the older folks that want to play the same dated design that have apparently way more free time than I (and I have a lot), but there is a reason you won't find me loitering on the Pantheon forum.
Hopefully Brad throws you a bone and shows more soon, when you are wondering into a forum for a game you seem to dislike, probably running out of hype for what you do.
Edit: My not sharing the same view or believing what you say does not make me ignorant. I'm neither super excited nor working some hidden agenda against "the community." EQN interests me but the amount goes down as time goes on and nothing is keeping the fire going. I'm not overly concerned about a video game, just not who I am. I've spent around 20+ years playing online games and hope to for a long while more, but it isn't my life or life/death to me. I have no grudges or vendettas against companies/devs/games and hope all of us have something we can enjoy and that all products do well in their own ways. I wouldn't be upset if Pantheon did better than EQN or if both flopped hilariously. Simply doesn't matter that much to me. Even Crowfall which I've tossed cash at, if it falls through, meh it is what it is. Life goes on.
As far as refuting what you say, not sure how I do that when all you've said is opinion. Your're wrong because I say so. Is that how it works? If you actually had something that resembled fact that held importance, I'd try harder.
Pantheon will never release because it won't be funded! Refute away.... fun times
I can say Daybreak does not have an internal working copy of EverQuest Next, because it is true.
The game is officially in a state of Vaporware. I am not going to repeat myself, you can educate yourself. But please start at the latest press release. John Smedley is in a rush to put the haggard pieces together and prove me wrong. Because the term "vaporware" hangs over his head.
Secondly, read your own posts. In nearly every paragraph you claim you don't know something and end up yammering. (ie: "but that is the frosting on top of the cake, I'd rather they get the cake baked right before worrying about the sprinkles.")
Frosting on the cake is your Development plan?
In essence is, You have illustrated the extent of your knowledge. You are either super ignorant and super excited, because that is who you are (as a person), Or have an agenda counter to the wishes of the community.
Only speak about things you know of.
Don't take people's words and sly-shift them into a mash of words to try and rebuttal known facts? Several others have called you out on the same tactic. It doesn't work, we are not little children here.
Refute my words, not me. You have just said to this entire community, that you are unaware of any game company that has produces an alpha version (playable) within 2.5 years of development?
Let alone have an internal server running the actual code and game client? I can not think of another game that did not!, except EQN. I will be as happy as you when EverQuest Next reaches pre-alpha. I just don't think John can prove his worth, and he will end up making Landmark Universe instead.
As for Brad McQuaid? Here. I am sure you will see he has more to say about his product, than John Smedley. That is why people are following Pantheon. Because it has wheels.
Sigh don't know why I feed folks like you...
How do you know it is true?
Guess I missed the memo where you were elected buzzword master of the internet. If you believe Vaporware is something that doesn't exist, awesome, I disagree. Why would there even need to be a term for such a thing, kind of defeats the purpose for me. Do we call games that have been released Realware, ReleasedWare, Solidware?
Landmark is EQN's "alpha". SOE/Daybreak has not hid this. They have said that their development cycle is not like other games because they are double dipping and testing mechanics/features in one game before they are used in another. Again, there is no clear meaning of "alpha" "beta" they could call it Carrot Cart #4 if they felt like it. You have no say in the matter.
I'll speak on what I know and that is unless you work for Daybreak or not and are leaking information, you don't know what you are talking about. Nothing you've said shows your vast knowledge of anything.
I can't prove EQN in any form outside of Landmark exists, nor can you prove it doesn't, not sure why your lack of proof overrides mine.
As I said, Landmark is a pretty decent "alpha" for EQN, quite better than I've seen for other popular games in some ways. But again it goes back to "what is an alpha" which we aren't going to agree on.
Those sprinkles and frosting that I speak of are usually not the most difficult aspect to getting a game going. If a studio can't make different races or a bunch of skills they shouldn't be in the business.
If they struggle to incorporate Voxels and other tech to work in a proper manner, I'd understand, but still think it would be a waste of time/money to not have some sort of working model before announcing it. Which they did, but clearly a very early model.
You are right that Brad has more to say about HIS project. EQN is a company project, there is no visionary lone leader taking all the credit or the fall for the mistakes, nor has EQN attempted and failed at crowdfunding itself either. Crowfall (funded) looks a heck of a lot better than Pantheon at this stage and shows more promise than EQN in my eyes. Amazing what having a decent leader(s) and the right product can do.
Brad was a large part of EQ so I thank him for that, but he is not my savior or someone with a long track record of amazing games. EQ, VG, Pantheon really aren't huge leaps from one another and considering the simplicity of EQ, mess that was VG, and so far very shaky history of Pantheon, I wouldn't put him so high up on a pedestal like you do, but that's your deal.
I'm glad he's there trying to produce something to please the older folks that want to play the same dated design that have apparently way more free time than I (and I have a lot), but there is a reason you won't find me loitering on the Pantheon forum.
Hopefully Brad throws you a bone and shows more soon, when you are wondering into a forum for a game you seem to dislike, probably running out of hype for what you do.
Edit: My not sharing the same view or believing what you say does not make me ignorant. I'm neither super excited nor working some hidden agenda against "the community." EQN interests me but the amount goes down as time goes on and nothing is keeping the fire going. I'm not overly concerned about a video game, just not who I am. I've spent around 20+ years playing online games and hope to for a long while more, but it isn't my life or life/death to me. I have no grudges or vendettas against companies/devs/games and hope all of us have something we can enjoy and that all products do well in their own ways. I wouldn't be upset if Pantheon did better than EQN or if both flopped hilariously. Simply doesn't matter that much to me. Even Crowfall which I've tossed cash at, if it falls through, meh it is what it is. Life goes on.
As far as refuting what you say, not sure how I do that when all you've said is opinion. Your're wrong because I say so. Is that how it works? If you actually had something that resembled fact that held importance, I'd try harder.
Pantheon will never release because it won't be funded! Refute away.... fun times
Did you read what your wrote ?
See how it is nearly 100% based on emotion, and not on logic or tangible evidence, etc? Just a mish-mash of hopes based on wants.
Lets face it, you blindly believe John Smedley. And the rest of the community faults you for that. What makes you so stand-out is how blindfully and faithfully you follow & support him. So at odds with reality, that it borders on fanaticism, or suspicion.
EverQuest Next is going to have to fight to become one of the Baby Bells. And as of right now, it is not doing to well given Daybreak's 2-pseudo projects with a total of 50 fanatical fans.
Ask John Smedley outright the condition, or state of EverQuest Next. It is in deed Vaporware. Matter of fact, the day it is not, is when Smedley will fill the airwaves lauding it over me. As I am sure he reads these posts.
Coincidentally, why are you going on & on & on about Brad? Why do you bring him up in every post?
edit: btw, that is the definition of vaporware. The term has been around for at least 30 years.
Silly argument. You can't prove or disprove there is a working version of EQN, and no, a beta version of a different game does not constitute an alpha of an MMORPG. They are totally different games. The lack of evidence inclines me to believe the game is not even a working alpha, or they could at least extract a little polished gameplay demo. Either way, you can't say for certain.
Comments
Really don't know what you are going on about.
I think for myself and am therefore naive? Didn't know being a blind hater/fanboi sheep was the cool thing these days. Although I'm pretty sure most on here are providing their opinion, not that of someone else. After 20+ years of online gaming, nothing really shocks me anymore.
Do I "care" about this project? Considering the majority of my posts have been about it and relatively positive, I'd say I care, but I'm not going to cry if it all falls apart. Pixels.
Unless you know more than the rest of us (all that insider info you have?) not sure how you can say they don't have an internal "working" copy. I don't know many games in the typical 5 year cycle that show off "working" copies 2.5 years in, but Landmark is a pretty decent example of what they have going and not bad compared to Alpha/Betas I've seen from other projects. Do they have 8 races, 40 classes, tons of mobs, etc? No clue, but that is the frosting on top of the cake, I'd rather they get the cake baked right before worrying about the sprinkles.
Considering what they are working with (Voxels for starters) and what I hope isn't another copy/paste of the EQ/WoW designs, I'm not shocked at the time it is taking. I don't know many AAA titles in the last few years that have done anything as adventurous, at least not that worked.
If it takes them another 5 years and it delivers, so what? I hope people aren't planning their futures around a video game. "But I already built a computer for a game I don't even know the specs for!!!!" /sigh
Are you personally being harmed with imaginary delay of this game? Really, some folks come off as if SOE/Daybreak has come into their homes and punched them in the face and took their lunch money. Don't like the company, product, or how any of it is handled? As said above, no one is holding a gun to your head. If you choose to follow and discuss what is going on and that causes you internal mental/physical anguish, might need to rethink priorities.
I'm a real person the last time I checked, but after this rambling, I still don't know what I'm in denial about. I don't agree with some definitions of a subjective buzzword like Vaporware? Sorry I guess?
I'd love to know what an "official state of vaporware" is and what committee you are on that determines this for everyone.
No clue how I'm the ONLY one with some special light, but if you mean a non pitchfork mentality, someone in this thread that makes up ~25% of the posts seems to see the light even better than myself.
As I've said, if the game turns out decent enough for me to try it, yay for me. If it doesn't, oh well. Just another game. I'd like it to be something worth investing my time/money into for a quality return in entertainment, but looking at Landmark's feature progress and the lack of details I'd personally like to see about EQN, my doubts are very strong.
But I guess I have my denial going for me?
Edit: Dang it, just realized you are the person that called Brad a luminary and savior and dubbed yourself a Baby Bell...
Got two quotes from you that are interesting though, even being out of context:
"This game is not for everyone. Funny how everyone wants to make it about them."
"You bring up a lot of questions of the past, and make a lot of points. But none of them matter, as they are not based on TODAYs world, or marketplace."
When it comes to Pantheon and Brad's past, disregard, when it comes to EQN and Daybreak, lets compare to everything that has come before.
Then again, if I start talking poorly about what you like, I'm going to be addicted to it when it surely is released in the near future as nothing questionable has happened or matters if it has or hasn't. Logic accepted and understood.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I will look for it, was said by the developers and has been commented about on reddit and even pod casts. Just google "year of everquest next" in quotes like that. If I remember right it was said last years somewhere shortly after SoE was sold and I think it was Terry who said it. Didnt seem like an off hand remark at the time but it feels like it now lol. I dont have time this weekend to look for it but I will next week.
Six months ago people were speculating how Daybreak was going to make all these big announcements/reveals about the game and all the wonderful things going to happen, because 2015 was going to be the year of EQN.
Six months into 2015 and that message has is now changing into, well they didn't promise anything and we don't know what their claims actually meant.
I'm pretty sure I know what the comments will be when 2016 rolls along, but hopefully something changes to make 2015 the year of EQN.
I don't think Landmark and EQN's history are going to be two separate things. Eventually the curtain has to be pulled back and everyone is going to see that EQN is Landmark and visa versa.
I think the whole vaporware opinion stems from a game that has been in development for nearly 8 years and comparing that to similar projects that have ended up the same way. It isn't like this game has infinite amounts of time to be developed and that people have unrealistic expectations.
Honest question, how many more years do you think EQN has before Columbus Nova says enough is enough, give us returns on our investment? Also, how many years do you think the game is away from a release that might possibly end up resulting in a "great" game? I'm not talking about the typical "anything is possible" I'm talking about personal opinion based on what we currently know.
Allow me to quote your ignorance:
"Unless you know more than the rest of us (all that insider info you have?) not sure how you can say they don't have an internal "working" copy. I don't know many games in the typical 5 year cycle that show off "working" copies 2.5 years in, but Landmark is a pretty decent example of what they have going and not bad compared to Alpha/Betas I've seen from other projects. Do they have 8 races, 40 classes, tons of mobs, etc? No clue, but that is the frosting on top of the cake, I'd rather they get the cake baked right before worrying about the sprinkles."
I can say Daybreak does not have an internal working copy of EverQuest Next, because it is true.
The game is officially in a state of Vaporware. I am not going to repeat myself, you can educate yourself. But please start at the latest press release. John Smedley is in a rush to put the haggard pieces together and prove me wrong. Because the term "vaporware" hangs over his head.
Secondly, read your own posts. In nearly every paragraph you claim you don't know something and end up yammering. (ie: "but that is the frosting on top of the cake, I'd rather they get the cake baked right before worrying about the sprinkles.")
Frosting on the cake is your Development plan?
In essence is, You have illustrated the extent of your knowledge. You are either super ignorant and super excited, because that is who you are (as a person), Or have an agenda counter to the wishes of the community.
Only speak about things you know of.
Don't take people's words and sly-shift them into a mash of words to try and rebuttal known facts? Several others have called you out on the same tactic. It doesn't work, we are not little children here.
Refute my words, not me. You have just said to this entire community, that you are unaware of any game company that has produces an alpha version (playable) within 2.5 years of development?
Let alone have an internal server running the actual code and game client? I can not think of another game that did not!, except EQN. I will be as happy as you when EverQuest Next reaches pre-alpha. I just don't think John can prove his worth, and he will end up making Landmark Universe instead.
As for Brad McQuaid? Here. I am sure you will see he has more to say about his product, than John Smedley. That is why people are following Pantheon. Because it has wheels.
Ok, so first of all, let's clear up some facts. Vaporware is, specifically, a product that is announced but just vanishes without being heard from again and without official cancellation. Soooo, asserting EQN is vaporware is premature. That's fact. Secondly, If this is your classification of vaporware then Pantheon is also vaporware. Their goal for 2015 is an Alpha build of levels 1-10. That's a far cry from a full game.
John Smedley proving his worth? Well, good luck. He hasn't been wildly successful at that yet and will probably never live it down. However, Brad is no better, really. Both characters will live on in infamy for their inability to complete their Cinderella products. Yes, I'm saying it. Even if Pantheon is actually released, it's no longer Brad's baby because he didn't drive it over the finish line. It may be his creative vision, but he's proven to be nothing short of a horrible project/company leader.
Finally, Pantheon has about as many "wheels" as EQN at the moment. The goal of Pantheon is to have an Alpha 1 for 2015 which means that they probably have just as many knowledge gaps to fill in as EQN at this point. If you've ever worked on a game, or software product even. Shoot! If you've ever followed a game... ever! It's a well-known fact that there are plenty of obstacles which can block a product, from technical to financial. So asserting that Pantheon somehow has this all figured out and, in one year, they'll implement all these innovative features, it's quite a stretch.
So before you walk around accusing others of being ignorant, you better make sure that you've got some serious, factual evidence of your own to back up your statements.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Allow me to educate you: HERE
If it does it does, if it does not it matter little. They make a good game, people will play it =-)
Video I linked below says something very different. Two different games with each their own time lime. Right now Landmarks focus will be to build EQN. The props and tools. Once thats done you will see Landmark walk in a direction that will make it unique. SciFi as well as Fantasy. They have also talked about letting people start building as they do in Minecraft and many other ways as well mentioned in Landmark streams. On a scale as big as people want. Right now, that kinda of stuff has to wait.
First off, as told to you before. We have no clue how far developed the first 2 iterations on EQN were. For all we know a game close to beta or not much more then white board work and concept art. My guess is the latter seeing what they had walking into this iteration of EQN. Heck they didnt even have much in the way of concept art for the races. When Landmark builders were asking for sizes for doorways. They said hold on, we need to figure that out. Few weeks later we get concept art and voxel measurements. But thats all we can do is guess on that topic. You have no facts and we have no facts. At best its been an idea for 8 years.
As for when they say enough is enough. Watch the video below. That dev team does not feel rushed about LAndmark or EQN. "We will be ready when we are ready" They said many things saying that they are here till they get it right. They are open with the gamers that EQN is an RD project for the most part. I am sure CN knew this before they bought SoE. Do they have deadlines? My guess is yes. Would the dead lines take into account EQN is an RD project. My guess again would be yes. Sit back and relax, my guess this is going to take a while =-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-G2-6SqdOQ
I don't know how that's an education. Also, you're still asserting that EQN does not exist, when they probably have more "pieces" than Pantheon. Again, Vaporware is something that is announced and never materializes. So you can't say something is vaporware when it hasn't even passed it's release date. Let me educate you.
Vaporware:
Starcraft: Ghost
Project Copernicus
Warcraft Adventures (this one still hurts me)
Agent
There IS a difference and while I'm sorry to say, but your definition doesn't agree with the Internet.
Oh, and you can be sure that they most certainly DO have a server running at Daybreak. They already have a networking infrastructure from a myriad of games, including Landmark which may as well be EQN-lite. If you think that they aren't going to port the Landmark server architecture to be recycled for EQN you're truly naive.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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I doesn't really matter how the 8 years are divided up between the three attempts to make EQN. The results are still the same.
Same question though: how many more years do you think this project has and how many years away from completion do you think it is?
This pretty much sums up why people think this game will end up as vaporware or a total bust.Agree that Landmark is a different game in name only. Maybe in the future they become different games, but that seems like speculation at this point.
They have made a game and it isn't good and less the 50 people log on to play it at peak hours. That really is the only fact that matters right now.
Maybe in the future something happens and it becomes better or a vastly different game, but right now it isn't.
Again, you attempt to use a video from February 2015 to support your assertion that the EQ:N project is on schedule. That information has aged, badly. Specifically, the most recent release (the one this thread references) stating that they are shifting focus from Landmark to EQ:N suggests that something has changed, pretty drastically. My guess is that they really didn't have deadlines, but now they do. Hard deadlines. No more lollygagging-type deadlines.
Modern R&D projects in the real (non-Daybreak) world have plenty of deadlines. It is always a matter of show something by this date or we will shelve the project and move on. Miss a deadline, and funding goes away. It isn't about bumbling around blindly hoping to discover something. R&D is very directed intellectual pursuit.
From all evidence, SOE and Sony treated EQ:N the same way a scientist in the 1700s would have, basically someone went away to hope the shed didn't blow up before the money ran out. If something amazing happened, fine. All too often, though, there was a sale on partially blasted wood and masonry. Now, CN comes along and abruptly imposes real-world deadlines on SOE, now Daybreak. SOE have 'sold' (or tried to sell) EQ:N as a viable product, not as industry research into MMORPG concepts and emerging technology. You appear to be saying that everything is okay, because EQ:N really is and always has been a research project. CN appears to be throwing that idea out on its ear, the new deadlines are stating to the development team (and quite probably, the entire remaining management structure inherited from SOE) to produce or the money goes away.
Maybe CN really are treating this as an "Investigations Into Future Technologies And Emergent Game Play That May Be Applicable To MMORPG Development". (You have to admit, that would make a nifty dissertation / thesis title). But as to the previous open-ended do-what-you-like approach, CN is clearly putting a foot down -- either produce or else. What that 'else' might be, I only have guesses (restaff and continue, restart with new staff, purchase and rename, abandon development, or something else) with no clear idea which direction that CN might lean.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
It may release, it may not. Whether that makes it "vapourware" is a point that can then be discussed. The Agency was a real game, for example, before SoE cancelled it.
What I find telling in the letter is they are not prepared to commit to a timetable. Now if Blizzard says something like that no big deal; less so when it comes from DBG when you factor in SoE's recent history (condensed version):
Where do you get these numbers? Steam? Most people who bought the game from the start bought it from SoE direct because if you did, you can get a refund at any time. Steam didnt even sell Landmark till much later in its closed beta phase. Unless you are saying you have insider info? I play Landmark and its not nearly as barren as some like you post. And what does this have to do with EQN being a good game or not? Landmark as well is only a shell of what they are making it to be. Landmark is in closed beta and still testing Alpha systems. EQN is not even in beta. So how you judge a product I have no clue.
SOE literally said this same thing after SOE Live in 2013. They fired or moved staff from all projects, allegedly, to finish EQN.
Yes from Steam. Landmark went from an average of 700+ players to less than 40.
How do you know most people bought Landmark from SOE? Where do you get your numbers from to make such claims? Steam is the dominate source for PC games. So much so that SOE/Daybreak only sells H1Z1 on steam. I'm sure they didn't throw away 30% of their income to make it exclusive to steam. The evidence speaks directly against what you think is happening.
As for Landmark being a shell of what EQN might be someday, ok. Someday that might become true, however anyone can watch the progress and proficiency of work done on Landmark which currently is EQN.
Pretty easy to judge what is available.
As I said above, Steam didnt get Landmark till much later. In Landmark most people I talk to say they bought it from DGC because of the refund or to make sure they supported DGC directly. When Steam got it and started selling it for cheap with deals, we got a flood on new people and I kept playing with the same people. Months later, most of the Steam crowd left. Leaving for the most part the people who bought it from SoE direct. When people in Landmark get friends to come join, they often suggest they get it from DGC direct. Steams numbers are good for most games but not all. In the end, I dont have numbers, its just what it seems from my play time and talking to friends in Landmark.
I think LM access was up for purchase before going to steam. I may be wrong since it has been awhile. I know I bought it from SOE. However the population has never been strong and when it had a spike of players it was due to a content patch or the wipe which quickly faded.
I am very skeptical of Landmark actually lasting past this year.
They said at the start of the year that they were moving focus to EQN and now they said it again recently. Not sure why they thought it required another announcement. Anyways I hope they realize that they need to show something this year. People were expecting a lot of information at last years SOE ( which I think isnt going to happen anymore ) and got literally nothing. It is long past time to show something.
I'm not knocking your personal experience with the people you interact with, but it is anecdotal sample size of 1.
For sake of discussion, lets assume it was a 10:1 ratio of SOE vs Steam sales... that would still be a server of a few hundred people.
The point was if they make a great game people will play it. It doesn't seem like people think it is great or are playing it.
Personally I think this message hit home with the developers very hard and why they went silent.
That seems reasonable. CN took a look at revenue and actual players from both direct sales and Steam (and any other venture they may have in other countries) and put the edict down. Basically, a produce-what-you've-advertised mandate to the development team. Less talk, more code.
I'm hoping this 'new focus' and any implied / assumed / stated consequences applies to the upper management. For entirely too long, Smedley has been a rather laid-back, non-pressure manager from everything visible to the outside world. Putting his salary / bonus / position on the line could be a very good thing for Daybreak. A change from the laissez-faire attitude that seems to permeate all the old videos that Nanfoodle can find might actually help the prospects for this game.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I'd give it another 2 years if I was paying the checks, also assuming that they have something to show the check writers which may or may not be available to the general public. Lets not assume that CN is a bunch of morons and is just writing blank checks to Daybreak.
While I totally get the view that 8+ years or whatever is a long time to be working on a project, even with restarts, it is what it is and there is no official rule book that states how long a game has to take.
Wildstar 9 years, despite its present state, plenty of folks were really excited for it. They simply didn't announce it the same way SOE did and it wasn't as big a deal. I'm sure I could dig up some others that took a while, but I don't really see the importance, but going over X time frame doesn't force vaporware status forever instantly.
All that matters to me is the final product. If there isn't one, hey, you can say I told you so, currently all you and I can do is talk out our rear ends about what we think, believe, hope, predict, assume, whatever. None of us have any actual proof or facts to back it up. "But it has taken 8 years!" is not proof of anything beyond it taking that long.
They did say that we'd have more info on EQN this year, but weren't super specific beyond more info on classes, which may or may not happen. Considering some companies (Blizzard) have huge annual events where they release all new stuff in a small time frame, Daybreak could still do something of the sort, even if SOE Live isn't going to happen. Plenty of ways to get information to the public (look around at this internet thing).
I'll still go with my comment that they haven't technically missed any deadlines. If 2016 rolls around and all we have are the boring Workshops, clearly it wasn't "the year of EQN" at least not publicly. Then again, I'd bet those comments were made before Daybreak existed and SOE Live was canceled and.....
Funny that when the drama happened many said EQN was canceled due to the layoffs and what not. Now that it clearly is still being developed, all that happened isn't supposed to factor in at all and they should maintain anything they said despite losing part of the team, moving offices, possibly refocusing due to new ownership, etc. As always, whatever is convenient to the loudest folks.
Sigh don't know why I feed folks like you...
How do you know it is true?
Guess I missed the memo where you were elected buzzword master of the internet. If you believe Vaporware is something that doesn't exist, awesome, I disagree. Why would there even need to be a term for such a thing, kind of defeats the purpose for me. Do we call games that have been released Realware, ReleasedWare, Solidware?
Landmark is EQN's "alpha". SOE/Daybreak has not hid this. They have said that their development cycle is not like other games because they are double dipping and testing mechanics/features in one game before they are used in another. Again, there is no clear meaning of "alpha" "beta" they could call it Carrot Cart #4 if they felt like it. You have no say in the matter.
I'll speak on what I know and that is unless you work for Daybreak or not and are leaking information, you don't know what you are talking about. Nothing you've said shows your vast knowledge of anything.
I can't prove EQN in any form outside of Landmark exists, nor can you prove it doesn't, not sure why your lack of proof overrides mine.
As I said, Landmark is a pretty decent "alpha" for EQN, quite better than I've seen for other popular games in some ways. But again it goes back to "what is an alpha" which we aren't going to agree on.
Those sprinkles and frosting that I speak of are usually not the most difficult aspect to getting a game going. If a studio can't make different races or a bunch of skills they shouldn't be in the business.
If they struggle to incorporate Voxels and other tech to work in a proper manner, I'd understand, but still think it would be a waste of time/money to not have some sort of working model before announcing it. Which they did, but clearly a very early model.
You are right that Brad has more to say about HIS project. EQN is a company project, there is no visionary lone leader taking all the credit or the fall for the mistakes, nor has EQN attempted and failed at crowdfunding itself either. Crowfall (funded) looks a heck of a lot better than Pantheon at this stage and shows more promise than EQN in my eyes. Amazing what having a decent leader(s) and the right product can do.
Brad was a large part of EQ so I thank him for that, but he is not my savior or someone with a long track record of amazing games. EQ, VG, Pantheon really aren't huge leaps from one another and considering the simplicity of EQ, mess that was VG, and so far very shaky history of Pantheon, I wouldn't put him so high up on a pedestal like you do, but that's your deal.
I'm glad he's there trying to produce something to please the older folks that want to play the same dated design that have apparently way more free time than I (and I have a lot), but there is a reason you won't find me loitering on the Pantheon forum.
Hopefully Brad throws you a bone and shows more soon, when you are wondering into a forum for a game you seem to dislike, probably running out of hype for what you do.
Edit: My not sharing the same view or believing what you say does not make me ignorant. I'm neither super excited nor working some hidden agenda against "the community." EQN interests me but the amount goes down as time goes on and nothing is keeping the fire going. I'm not overly concerned about a video game, just not who I am. I've spent around 20+ years playing online games and hope to for a long while more, but it isn't my life or life/death to me. I have no grudges or vendettas against companies/devs/games and hope all of us have something we can enjoy and that all products do well in their own ways. I wouldn't be upset if Pantheon did better than EQN or if both flopped hilariously. Simply doesn't matter that much to me. Even Crowfall which I've tossed cash at, if it falls through, meh it is what it is. Life goes on.
As far as refuting what you say, not sure how I do that when all you've said is opinion. Your're wrong because I say so. Is that how it works? If you actually had something that resembled fact that held importance, I'd try harder.
Pantheon will never release because it won't be funded! Refute away.... fun times
Did you read what your wrote ?
See how it is nearly 100% based on emotion, and not on logic or tangible evidence, etc? Just a mish-mash of hopes based on wants.
Lets face it, you blindly believe John Smedley. And the rest of the community faults you for that. What makes you so stand-out is how blindfully and faithfully you follow & support him. So at odds with reality, that it borders on fanaticism, or suspicion.
EverQuest Next is going to have to fight to become one of the Baby Bells. And as of right now, it is not doing to well given Daybreak's 2-pseudo projects with a total of 50 fanatical fans.
Ask John Smedley outright the condition, or state of EverQuest Next. It is in deed Vaporware. Matter of fact, the day it is not, is when Smedley will fill the airwaves lauding it over me. As I am sure he reads these posts.
Coincidentally, why are you going on & on & on about Brad? Why do you bring him up in every post?
edit: btw, that is the definition of vaporware. The term has been around for at least 30 years.
Silly argument. You can't prove or disprove there is a working version of EQN, and no, a beta version of a different game does not constitute an alpha of an MMORPG. They are totally different games. The lack of evidence inclines me to believe the game is not even a working alpha, or they could at least extract a little polished gameplay demo. Either way, you can't say for certain.