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Greed Monger Cancelled; $100,000+ in Kickstarter Funds Unaccounted For

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  • MyobiMyobi Member UncommonPosts: 63
    Originally posted by Mightyking
    Originally posted by Myobi

     then I apologize

     

    Because that is exactly my point, successful funding and successful project are 2 really different things, yet you clearly stated that ACCORDING to KICKSTARTER Greed Monger is a SUCCESSFUL PROJECT, where did they say that? As far as I know all they have in the website is that Greed Monger accomplished their funding goal, therefore, they had a SUCCESSFUL FUNDING o.O;

    NP we're cool.

    If you look at your stat page you see that all numbers are about funded projects, number of backers, how much money was donated, etc. But Kickstarter has no idea how many projects actually get finished. Because they don't ask the project leaders to tell them when they actually deliver.

     

    Ahaha, you bring the term “selective memory” into an entire new level.

    I still don’t get it, what do you think that they would achieve from asking the project leaders for the project status? Ignoring the insane amount that would be considering the amount of projects there, what would stop the developers from just lying (again?)? Even if not, then what?

  • SirBalinSirBalin Member UncommonPosts: 1,300
    The best will be when Star Citizen proves to be a scam...oh wait, they are adding another ship, let me give them more money!!  lmao

    Incognito
    www.incognito-gaming.us
    "You're either with us or against us"

  • MightykingMightyking Member UncommonPosts: 235
    Originally posted by Myobi

    Ahaha, you bring the term “selective memory” into an entire new level.

    I still don’t get it, what do you think that they would achieve from asking the project leaders for the project status? Ignoring the insane amount that would be considering the amount of projects there, what would stop the developers from just lying (again?)? Even if not, then what?

    When debating with someone so intelligent as yourself, I can imagine why you accuse me of having a selective memory. But to be honest when you keep playing the man, instead of the ball, you make this debate rather difficult.

     

    When we backtrack, someone says 99% of all kickstarter projects fail (nicely illustrated with a picture). You replied with the Kickstarter stat page. To which my reply was that those numbers are irrelevant to the success rate, those numbers only show success in funding. In just two lines of text.

    Your reply was a lot of lines seemingly directly to me as a person. The conclusion is that our opinions differ. I hope if we ever debate again the punches land above the waste.

  • MyobiMyobi Member UncommonPosts: 63
    Originally posted by Mightyking
    Originally posted by Myobi

    Ahaha, you bring the term “selective memory” into an entire new level.

    I still don’t get it, what do you think that they would achieve from asking the project leaders for the project status? Ignoring the insane amount that would be considering the amount of projects there, what would stop the developers from just lying (again?)? Even if not, then what?

    When debating with someone so intelligent as yourself, I can imagine why you accuse me of having a selective memory. But to be honest when you keep playing the man, instead of the ball, you make this debate rather difficult.

     

    When we backtrack, someone says 99% of all kickstarter projects fail (nicely illustrated with a picture). You replied with the Kickstarter stat page. To which my reply was that those numbers are irrelevant to the success rate, those numbers only show success in funding. In just two lines of text.

    Your reply was a lot of lines seemingly directly to me as a person. The conclusion is that our opinions differ. I hope if we ever debate again the punches land above the waste.

    I understand why someone like yourself would find me intelligent, but it’s kind of relative really, I’m just aware that I don’t know shit about legislation (especially in US) and I didn’t fully read Kickstarters EULA, leaving me in no position to criticize them or even saying what and how they should be doing.

    Also. that wasn’t exactly your reply, but I’ll go along with it. It is true that the page doesn’t necessarily provide the number of actually successful projects funded by Kickstarter, but saying that the number of successful funded projects is irrelevant to the amount successful projects it’s just bullshit, a failed funded project will always be a failed project considering they ran out of funding options when they resorted to Kickstarter, but a successful funded project will always have a chance to result in a successful project, thus influencing the result, thus being relevant to it.

    Now your actual reply was that if I was aware of the “uselessness” of that page, yes, I am, I also know it’s useful enough to know that there are currently 234,838 launched projects via Kickstarter, considering that 99% fail, is saying that only around 2348 of those projects succeed, so yes, the page is just useful enough to see get an small idea how silly that made up percentage is.

    Anyhow, if you ask me it’s no entirely my fault why this debate is “difficult”, honestly I don’t even really see much of a reason for it, you seem to want Kickstarter to take up some responsibility on the projects final results, even financially compensating the backers who supported unsuccessful projects, when both sides of the Kickstarter users agreed upon the very start that Kickstarter wouldn’t have to do it… so, why would they? They are not forced legally to do it, it wouldn’t be profitable to do…. What? Just to look nice then?

    PS: Also, please don’t take my replies so personally, generally they are for those who are blaming the Kickstarter for this kind of situations, especially the ones who backed such kind of projects, since they agreed themselves on the conditions. 

  • MrSnufflesMrSnuffles Member UncommonPosts: 1,117
    Originally posted by Scot

    My real concern is that people will start to lose faith in KS and the like. I see KS as the only hope we will get gaming back to what it used to be. To a hobby that is not subject to the demands of being an entertainment on the same level as films. To a pastime that puts innovation in front of franchises. A gaming where people expect a game to be good enough to play more than a month before they put it down.

    NO! The way we get it back is to stop giving them money for crappy franchise games, endless sequels and unfinished/buggy releases. The problem is that too many people like these shitty games or don't know better. This genre is as dead as Hollywood which produces only crap and propaganda nothing worth my money.

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  • AzrileeAzrilee Member CommonPosts: 22
    Originally posted by Scot

    My real concern is that people will start to lose faith in KS and the like. I see KS as the only hope we will get gaming back to what it used to be. To a hobby that is not subject to the demands of being an entertainment on the same level as films. To a pastime that puts innovation in front of franchises. A gaming where people expect a game to be good enough to play more than a month before they put it down.

    Man you summed it up nicely.  That is my thought also.   KS is an invaluable tool for indie companies to finish  a game.  But there are two truths that must be understood

    1.  Despite Unity being powerful,  making a game requires real programming skill.  You can´t just wake up one day, download Unity and go to KS to be funded to learn how to make a game.

    2.  You can do a LOT of work for free.  There are obviously costs to making a game, but a person who is really dedicated to the project can do a ton of actual development before needing money.  Most of the costs associated with a game come at the end, when you need to turn off your prototyping artwork and need to distribute to beta testers.  The main functionality of a game should be done before you need any money.  You know a game is a fake when the opposite is true, when they are showing you screenshots and videos that have no functionality..

  • RockardRockard Member UncommonPosts: 206


    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    Originally posted by Mavolence

    Originally posted by MrSnuffles Jason Appleton is the real crook here. He is a smart scam artist that tried many schemes to make a quick buck. Right now he poses as an SEO expert on his http://upstager.com/ website. It's a complete scam, some pages with his references/clients still have the Lorem Ipsum placeholder text from the Template he bought to make this website.  He also claims to be an SEO expert: "Having been doing online marketing, web design, SEO and PPC management for many years for multiple industries, I knew I wanted to help small businesses without $20,000 budgets be able to compete with the industry players. Upstager's focus is doing exactly that." http://upstager.com/partner-view/school-of-art/    
    O.o   Holy shit. Deplorable
    Wow last I heard he was staring in a Swingers TV show where he and his wife would have sex with other people.  I am NOT making that up.  Now in addition to the above he is marketing a "SwingEasy Lifestyle App": http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/2545416    
     

    Hilarious.
    Voted for Dev of the year.
    Good spent money on that KS.
    Be careful which KSs you support and avoid
    paying guys like this and their missuses.
    Only chance to get back at him is to be his
    neighbour and do his wife.
    Go get that App.

  • MightykingMightyking Member UncommonPosts: 235
    Originally posted by Rockard

    Hilarious.

    Voted for Dev of the year.
    Good spent money on that KS.
    Be careful which KSs you support and avoid
    paying guys like this and their missuses.
    Only chance to get back at him is to be his
    neighbour and do his wife.
    Go get that App.

     

    Hahaha, +1

    Just don't forget, safety first, you don't want to get any diseases.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,280
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

     

    I read that only 33% of all Kickstarter games get released. How many of them are good games, well thats a figure I would love to see. As for Kickstarter MMOs, we have yet to see one release. My bet is the stat will be way lower then 33%.

    I wonder why people would risk their hard earn money for that kind of risks.

    1) There is no upside ... the best case scenario, you have a product .. which is probably meh compared to all the other already available stuff out there.

    2) Even if something is released, there is zero guarantee on the quality.

    3) There is also no guarantee if the original description is accurate since people can say anything to KS.

    I know there are suckers out there ... but so many of them with such disregard for their money ... it boggles the mind.

     

    Nari, you seem happy for whales to waste money in a cash shop, but not for people to waste money in KS. Which is rather odd. In KS you get to fund what you believe gaming should be like. For someone like you who thinks the genre is fabulous as it is, that concept is going to be hard to get your head round.

    The products whales buy do not have a guaranteed quality (nothing in the world does mind you). People pre-order games with no guarantee that "the original description is accurate". How is that any different from KS?

    I do advise caution on KS, but then I also advise caution on pre-order. I see little difference there between how the two models work in that regard, be cautious of both.

     

    Funding a game in a cash shop, for a game thats already up and running v funding a game that at best has a 33% chance of being released. Ya thats the same thing. 

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by Scot

     

    Nari, you seem happy for whales to waste money in a cash shop, but not for people to waste money in KS. Which is rather odd. In KS you get to fund what you believe gaming should be like. For someone like you who thinks the genre is fabulous as it is, that concept is going to be hard to get your head round.

    Absolutely.

    Whales spend money in a cash shop to pay-to-win. If they like wins ... they get exactly what they pay for ... fair exchange with no fraud. Now you and I may not like to buy wins ... but that is just another preferences on games.

    KS, OTOH, has a high risks of NOT getting what you want to pay for .... as opposed to cash shop .. which provides exactly what the whales want.

    And why would anyone want to fund "what you believe gaming should be like"? I don't fund what i believe movies should be right. I don't fund what i believe novels should be right. The funding mechanism is the market and it works. I rewards game devs, if i like their products, by purchasing a complete product ... no different than movies, novels and other entertainment.

    Is there a reason why i should try games differently?

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,017
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot

     

    Nari, you seem happy for whales to waste money in a cash shop, but not for people to waste money in KS. Which is rather odd. In KS you get to fund what you believe gaming should be like. For someone like you who thinks the genre is fabulous as it is, that concept is going to be hard to get your head round.

    Absolutely.

    Whales spend money in a cash shop to pay-to-win. If they like wins ... they get exactly what they pay for ... fair exchange with no fraud. Now you and I may not like to buy wins ... but that is just another preferences on games.

    KS, OTOH, has a high risks of NOT getting what you want to pay for .... as opposed to cash shop .. which provides exactly what the whales want.

    And why would anyone want to fund "what you believe gaming should be like"? I don't fund what i believe movies should be right. I don't fund what i believe novels should be right. The funding mechanism is the market and it works. I rewards game devs, if i like their products, by purchasing a complete product ... no different than movies, novels and other entertainment.

    Is there a reason why i should try games differently?

    We fund novels and films that we like and reflect what we want to see in those media by buying them. So funding a game that you think will give you the experience you want is just an extension of that. But just like pre-order I advise caution.

    I am not trying to change why you decide to play a game, that boat left several years ago. Just trying to show you that not everyone puts over money for the reasons you do. Or tries to avoid paying money like you do. :)

     

     25 Agrees

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  • TsaboHavocTsaboHavoc Member UncommonPosts: 435
    so, jason took the GM ks money and invested in his new swingers app.... he could at least offer his wife to some ks backers.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,017
    Originally posted by TsaboHavoc
    so, jason took the GM ks money and invested in his new swingers app.... he could at least offer his wife to some ks backers.

    Even though I hate the idea of "liking" a post, you have tempted me there. :)

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by Scot
     

    We fund novels and films that we like and reflect what we want to see in those media by buying them. So funding a game that you think will give you the experience you want is just an extension of that. But just like pre-order I advise caution.

    I am not trying to change why you decide to play a game, that boat left several years ago. Just trying to show you that not everyone puts over money for the reasons you do. Or tries to avoid paying money like you do. :)

     

    No .. we don't fund the development of novels and films. We buy them when they are available .. and often after figuring out if we like the product.

    Extending buying products to funding products .... change the nature of the relationship. If we are not getting the upside of the revenue, why should we be the investors?

    Preorder .... there is no risks of not having the product. By law, you money will be refunded if the product does not materialize.

    oh .. i know some people are just suckers and will give money to beggers on KS .... and I won't be changing anything ....but it is fun to call that out.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by Scot

    My real concern is that people will start to lose faith in KS and the like. I see KS as the only hope we will get gaming back to what it used to be. To a hobby that is not subject to the demands of being an entertainment on the same level as films. To a pastime that puts innovation in front of franchises. A gaming where people expect a game to be good enough to play more than a month before they put it down.

    Why is that a bad thing? People should lose faith in places that foster begging and fraud.

    KS is not going to get gaming back to what it used to be ... KS is going to lure those who want products with little market to pony up their money for nothing.

     

     

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,017
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot

    My real concern is that people will start to lose faith in KS and the like. I see KS as the only hope we will get gaming back to what it used to be. To a hobby that is not subject to the demands of being an entertainment on the same level as films. To a pastime that puts innovation in front of franchises. A gaming where people expect a game to be good enough to play more than a month before they put it down.

    Why is that a bad thing? People should lose faith in places that foster begging and fraud.

    KS is not going to get gaming back to what it used to be ... KS is going to lure those who want products with little market to pony up their money for nothing.

     

    You are so wrong here Nari. This is not just about bringing back some old gaming design and ethos. Yes many of us want to see that, but crowd funding is far bigger than that. Are you saying that so far CF has never produced a game you liked or played?

    If we do get some return to old school it will just be a subset of CF success and probably not the biggest thing to come from it. It is about innovation and I seriously doubt old/new hybrid MMOs will be seen as its greatest achievement.

    With Pre-order you can still get sold something that does not live up to your expectations, indeed you often do. But I accept the risk is greater in CF, with the caveat that many taking part in CF pay in less than they would to pre-order a game.

    I see bad practise in cash shops, in pre-order and in crowd funding. You only see it in crowd funding, I suggest you take your blinkers of.

     

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Originally posted by Scot
     

    You are so wrong here Nari. This is not just about bringing back some old gaming design and ethos. Yes many of us want to see that, but crowd funding is far bigger than that. Are you saying that so far CF has never produced a game you liked or played?

    With Pre-order you can still get sold something that does not live up to your expectations, indeed you often do. But I accept the risk is greater in CF, with the caveat that many taking part in CF pay in less than they would to pre-order a game.

    I see bad practise in cash shops, in pre-order and in crowd funding. You only see it in crowd funding, I suggest you take your blinkers of.

     

    no. I am saying why bother with it? If indeed it produces something i like .. i will buy it when it is a product. If they can't produce anything ... i just go some place else for entertainment .. there is no lack of that.

    hmm .. i don't preorder ... and everything I bought is fun .. because I do research .. but that is besides the point. Preoder does NOT risk not having anything. That is a big difference, don't you think? You can accept any risk you want. May be you go to vegas and gamble too .. does not mean i will say gambling is a good thing.

    And again, if there is fraud in KS .. it is facts .. and don't you think people should know about them .. and judge KS with that in mind?

    And what is the bad practice in cash shop? Pay to win? Well .. sure you can call it bad if you don't like it .. at least it is not fraud and whales know exactly what they get.

    You are confused between a product (pay-2-win) that you disapprove and bad practice (encouraging fraud).

     

  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson Member EpicPosts: 3,025
    I wonder if we're gonna hear some excuses about pay advances and medical bills.  Maybe a parking lot meeting to hammer out the details.  This guy sounds like he took a page out of another unsuccessful KS that is still trying to reel in the stupids.
  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson Member EpicPosts: 3,025
    Originally posted by Iczer
    Originally posted by JamesP
    Originally posted by damond5031
    Jason walked away with 80k and James gets all the game assets. Instead of moving on with the project that people paid to have developed, James will instead run off and work on some new project he has dreamed up. All involved with this project are thieves and liars. James will probably have a new kickstarter running within a week or two. 

    And IF I do and if all I show in the preview for the new game is nothing but Assets bought from the asset store with nothing really to show that I've actually done work on the game then please feel free to drag all this stuff up and do whatever you feel is needed. However I assure you that won't happen because I'm NOT that type of person. But hey man do what you have to do and believe what you want to believe it's your right to do so.

    *gets popcorn and a front row seat for more comedy*

     

    Seriously, someone should do a kickstarter to fund a sitcom about a kickstarter that was a scam and the hijinks that ensues.

     

     

    I'd watch it.  It would be like a Silicon valley spin-off on HBO lol.

  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson Member EpicPosts: 3,025
    Originally posted by Dullahan

    I think this will serve as a lesson to those who back kickstarters that claim they will make a game for less than its possible to do so.  The most basic mmorpg using stock assets cannot be made for 100k after the cost of licenses, even if you are paying your artists, coders and designers minimum wage.  Even a side scrolling game like castlevania that recently funded asked for a minimum of 500k (they were at 2.6M last time I checked).

    If they were honest, they'd have said straightway that the money was for a demo to attract VC down the line.  At least then you can know that its a gamble and you have to decide whether they are competent enough to pull it off, and whether their business plan is viable... but a game on 100k?  Thats just crazy.

    The irony in your statement is priceless.  If I didn't know any better, I would think you were talking about Pantheon lol.

  • collektcollekt Member UncommonPosts: 327
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    no. I am saying why bother with it? If indeed it produces something i like .. i will buy it when it is a product. If they can't produce anything ... i just go some place else for entertainment .. there is no lack of that.

    hmm .. i don't preorder ... and everything I bought is fun .. because I do research .. but that is besides the point. Preoder does NOT risk not having anything. That is a big difference, don't you think? You can accept any risk you want. May be you go to vegas and gamble too .. does not mean i will say gambling is a good thing.

    And again, if there is fraud in KS .. it is facts .. and don't you think people should know about them .. and judge KS with that in mind?

    And what is the bad practice in cash shop? Pay to win? Well .. sure you can call it bad if you don't like it .. at least it is not fraud and whales know exactly what they get.

    You are confused between a product (pay-2-win) that you disapprove and bad practice (encouraging fraud).

    Crowdfunding is clearly not for you, so just stay away from it. Just because you don't want to help fund a project you're passionate about doesn't mean it's a bad idea. My favorite part of crowdfunding is that it enables a developer to raise money for a project that they may not be able to secure funding for through the normal channels. This also gives them independence to develop the game they want without having to answer to overbearing publishers. Will there be cases of fraud or projects not being completed? Sure there will, but there will also be great projects completed as well. Think of it as an investment, you're helping enable a project to be undertaken. Investments always have risks. This is why you should research and only invest in something that you believe is likely to provide you with a return on that investment. There is no burden on anyone to convince you that crowdfunding isn't evil. Investing isn't for you and that's cool, just stick to buying games off the shelf.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    I really don't know why anyone would back a project where those creating it couldn't  think of a better name than greed monger... That's a tell tale sign they really aren't creative people.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • damond5031damond5031 Member UncommonPosts: 445
    Originally posted by collekt
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    no. I am saying why bother with it? If indeed it produces something i like .. i will buy it when it is a product. If they can't produce anything ... i just go some place else for entertainment .. there is no lack of that.

    hmm .. i don't preorder ... and everything I bought is fun .. because I do research .. but that is besides the point. Preoder does NOT risk not having anything. That is a big difference, don't you think? You can accept any risk you want. May be you go to vegas and gamble too .. does not mean i will say gambling is a good thing.

    And again, if there is fraud in KS .. it is facts .. and don't you think people should know about them .. and judge KS with that in mind?

    And what is the bad practice in cash shop? Pay to win? Well .. sure you can call it bad if you don't like it .. at least it is not fraud and whales know exactly what they get.

    You are confused between a product (pay-2-win) that you disapprove and bad practice (encouraging fraud).

    Crowdfunding is clearly not for you, so just stay away from it. Just because you don't want to help fund a project you're passionate about doesn't mean it's a bad idea. My favorite part of crowdfunding is that it enables a developer to raise money for a project that they may not be able to secure funding for through the normal channels. This also gives them independence to develop the game they want without having to answer to overbearing publishers. Will there be cases of fraud or projects not being completed? Sure there will, but there will also be great projects completed as well. Think of it as an investment, you're helping enable a project to be undertaken. Investments always have risks. This is why you should research and only invest in something that you believe is likely to provide you with a return on that investment. There is no burden on anyone to convince you that crowdfunding isn't evil. Investing isn't for you and that's cool, just stick to buying games off the shelf.

    So if everything goes according to plan, the devs of the game get rich and you get the game and maybe some digital goods.  If the project does not go the way it is supposed to, you lost hard earned money (probably a lot of it) and the people developing the game still got paid.  Can you imagine if investment in every industry worked like this? You and some friends give Joe some money to open up a chain of hamburger joints and all Joe promises you in return are a few hamburgers and no say so at all over how the business is run. If Joe is a scamming fool that can't cook a hambuger to save his life, you just lost your investment and all old Joe lost was his time...and he was getting paid. I need to get into the kickstarter business. 

     

  • eye_meye_m Member UncommonPosts: 3,317

    Was this the same game that started out with "Appleton doesn't know anything about making an MMO - do not fund" and followed up with "I'll sue if you let your readers say mean things about me" ? Is that the same game?

     

    I don't want anyone to be took advantage of, but maybe these victims will learn now and this sort of thing will happen less.  I sure hope so because nature has proven that if left alone, scum grows.

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

    I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.

  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,019
    Originally posted by damond5031
    Originally posted by collekt
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    no. I am saying why bother with it? If indeed it produces something i like .. i will buy it when it is a product. If they can't produce anything ... i just go some place else for entertainment .. there is no lack of that.

    hmm .. i don't preorder ... and everything I bought is fun .. because I do research .. but that is besides the point. Preoder does NOT risk not having anything. That is a big difference, don't you think? You can accept any risk you want. May be you go to vegas and gamble too .. does not mean i will say gambling is a good thing.

    And again, if there is fraud in KS .. it is facts .. and don't you think people should know about them .. and judge KS with that in mind?

    And what is the bad practice in cash shop? Pay to win? Well .. sure you can call it bad if you don't like it .. at least it is not fraud and whales know exactly what they get.

    You are confused between a product (pay-2-win) that you disapprove and bad practice (encouraging fraud).

    Crowdfunding is clearly not for you, so just stay away from it. Just because you don't want to help fund a project you're passionate about doesn't mean it's a bad idea. My favorite part of crowdfunding is that it enables a developer to raise money for a project that they may not be able to secure funding for through the normal channels. This also gives them independence to develop the game they want without having to answer to overbearing publishers. Will there be cases of fraud or projects not being completed? Sure there will, but there will also be great projects completed as well. Think of it as an investment, you're helping enable a project to be undertaken. Investments always have risks. This is why you should research and only invest in something that you believe is likely to provide you with a return on that investment. There is no burden on anyone to convince you that crowdfunding isn't evil. Investing isn't for you and that's cool, just stick to buying games off the shelf.

    So if everything goes according to plan, the devs of the game get rich and you get the game and maybe some digital goods.  If the project does not go the way it is supposed to, you lost hard earned money (probably a lot of it) and the people developing the game still got paid.  Can you imagine if investment in every industry worked like this? You and some friends give Joe some money to open up a chain of hamburger joints and all Joe promises you in return are a few hamburgers and no say so at all over how the business is run. If Joe is a scamming fool that can't cook a hambuger to save his life, you just lost your investment and all old Joe lost was his time...and he was getting paid. I need to get into the kickstarter business. 

     

     

    This.  Can't compare investments to KS at all, as there is 0 monetary gain from backing a game.

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