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Will you play on a blue server?

135

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  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    Originally posted by Muke
    Originally posted by 5ubzer0
    If you pvp at all, you should know that 95% of the playerbase will not play on a full loot server. People take their gear way too seriously these days.

    EVE Online is full loot and thriving.

     

     

    Oh, the great Eve Online.  It never fails to be brought up in any conversation involving PvP.   It's the PvP saviour with its 350-400k player base.  Eve Online is the PvP equivalent of WoW the "oft-hated and frowned upon" PvE monster.  The only difference is that Eve Online has rarely, if ever, had a player base larger than 500k while WoW's player base has at times hovered over 12 million.

  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,829
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Muke
    Originally posted by 5ubzer0
    If you pvp at all, you should know that 95% of the playerbase will not play on a full loot server. People take their gear way too seriously these days.

    EVE Online is full loot and thriving.

     

    Exceptions are not the rule =-) We will see if Corwfall falls under the norm of hardcore pure PvP game that falls on its face or something like EVE thats stands the test of time. IMO Crowfall is taking a risky road. Anyone who does not think so, does not know MMOs. They think they have a niche to fill. I hope they find it =)

    Their alternative is to compete with the existing PvE titans who are all owned by rich developers and publishers (Blizzard, Bioware, Square Enix, Zenimax, etc...), no Indy's going to be able to compete with those projects that have budgets over a 100 million dollars.

    Pretty much the reason why you only see Indies jumping on the Open world PvP bandwagon, if they had to make a PvE game they wouldn't even manage to get in the same league as the average PWE MMO.

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,829
    Originally posted by Demogorgon
    Originally posted by LacedOpium
    Originally posted by Muke
    Originally posted by 5ubzer0
    If you pvp at all, you should know that 95% of the playerbase will not play on a full loot server. People take their gear way too seriously these days.

    EVE Online is full loot and thriving.

     

     

    Oh, the great Eve Online.  It never fails to be brought up in any conversation involving PvP.   It's the PvP saviour with its 350-400k player base.  Eve Online is the PvP equivalent of WoW the "oft-hated and frowned upon" PvE monster.  The only difference is that Eve Online has rarely, if ever, had a player base larger than 500k while WoW's player base has at times hovered over 12 million.

    Correction... EVE never had more than 250-300k players. The rest are all the ATL accounts of vets.

    Right now, its probably sits at around 175-200k players, NOT accounts, maximum. ( i'm being generous)

    But thats another dead horse best left untouched. XD 

    ^Pretty much.

    I lost count of how many EVE players bring up how awesome their game is for being so hardcore that you won't get anywhere unless you have five extra accounts to support the one account that you actually play on.

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • turinmacleodturinmacleod Staff WriterMember UncommonPosts: 166

    "Blue Servers" is a misnomer in this case. There are no PvP vs PvE servers, there is one game world that consists of a PvE "center" and then several "rings" that have progressively stricter and stricter rulesets.

     

    one ruleset is strictly PvE, the rest are varying degrees of PvP, from 3v3 faction-based (law/chaos/balance, I think), to 12v12 faction-based (gods vs gods) to PvP FFA. Each of these "worlds" is finite in duration, and, when destroyed, will be reborn as something different.

     

    Also, each world will have a completely different ruleset upon each rebirth. One might be full loot, but next iteration only allow one item to be looted, and next iteration will not allow loot at all. It's all very flexible and meant to present players with new challenges every time.

     

    This system allows ArtCraft to experiment with lots of different rules, weed out the ones that don't work, and keep the game fresh over years of gameplay.

     

    I really think that is one of the game's greatest strengths: a near-infinite ability to reinvent itself over time.

     

    I hope that helps, or maybe everybody already knew this, I dunno, it just seems like some people were confused.

     

    T

     

    PS- I believe that one of the rewards for "winning" when a world expires is that your faction gets to help design the ruleset for one of the upcoming worlds, so that's pretty good incentive to win, no?

  • cerulean2012cerulean2012 Member UncommonPosts: 492

    I picked yes but I don't see it as hiding.  If the developers put in an option to play on a server that does not have full looting etc, then that is a choice I will pick.

     

    You may like full loot and stuff but there are plenty of people that don't so if you have to think of it as us hiding then so be it.  We will still be having fun without having to deal with that.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 10,637
    Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Muke
    Originally posted by 5ubzer0
    If you pvp at all, you should know that 95% of the playerbase will not play on a full loot server. People take their gear way too seriously these days.

    EVE Online is full loot and thriving.

     

    Exceptions are not the rule =-) We will see if Corwfall falls under the norm of hardcore pure PvP game that falls on its face or something like EVE thats stands the test of time. IMO Crowfall is taking a risky road. Anyone who does not think so, does not know MMOs. They think they have a niche to fill. I hope they find it =)

    Their alternative is to compete with the existing PvE titans who are all owned by rich developers and publishers (Blizzard, Bioware, Square Enix, Zenimax, etc...), no Indy's going to be able to compete with those projects that have budgets over a 100 million dollars.

    Pretty much the reason why you only see Indies jumping on the Open world PvP bandwagon, if they had to make a PvE game they wouldn't even manage to get in the same league as the average PWE MMO.

    I think they could have gone a smarter rout and made a PvP/PvE game that focused on PvP. Adding PvE like the old DAoC did. Open world dungeons designed to create PvP encounters. Each side started at a different end of the dungeon and the deeper you got the better the drops got. Only thing was, each side was working towards the center where all the good loot was. Risk reward PvE =-) Access to high end dungeons by how well you do in PvP. Even CU is not doing PvE. Crowfall and CU are almost fighting for the same pool of players. IMO, the one that adds its own niche unique PvE to the mix, will win. 

  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,030
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Muke
    Originally posted by 5ubzer0
    If you pvp at all, you should know that 95% of the playerbase will not play on a full loot server. People take their gear way too seriously these days.

    EVE Online is full loot and thriving.

     

    Exceptions are not the rule =-) We will see if Corwfall falls under the norm of hardcore pure PvP game that falls on its face or something like EVE thats stands the test of time. IMO Crowfall is taking a risky road. Anyone who does not think so, does not know MMOs. They think they have a niche to fill. I hope they find it =)

    Their alternative is to compete with the existing PvE titans who are all owned by rich developers and publishers (Blizzard, Bioware, Square Enix, Zenimax, etc...), no Indy's going to be able to compete with those projects that have budgets over a 100 million dollars.

    Pretty much the reason why you only see Indies jumping on the Open world PvP bandwagon, if they had to make a PvE game they wouldn't even manage to get in the same league as the average PWE MMO.

    I think they could have gone a smarter rout and made a PvP/PvE game that focused on PvP. Adding PvE like the old DAoC did. Open world dungeons designed to create PvP encounters. Each side started at a different end of the dungeon and the deeper you got the better the drops got. Only thing was, each side was working towards the center where all the good loot was. Risk reward PvE =-) Access to high end dungeons by how well you do in PvP. Even CU is not doing PvE. Crowfall and CU are almost fighting for the same pool of players. IMO, the one that adds its own niche unique PvE to the mix, will win. 

    This.  With two PvP games (not FOCUSED, straight up PvP games) being worked on at the same time, the bottom line is that niche is small and one of them will be going down the drain.  I think nanfoodle has the right of it here, whichever of them can differentiate themselves with some sort of non-PvP content will be the victor.

    Oh, and not to mention games like Das Tal and Albion.  I don't see more than one out of 4 lasting.

  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Member UncommonPosts: 868
    Originally posted by turinmacleod

    "Blue Servers" is a misnomer in this case. There are no PvP vs PvE servers, there is one game world that consists of a PvE "center" and then several "rings" that have progressively stricter and stricter rulesets.

     

    one ruleset is strictly PvE, the rest are varying degrees of PvP, from 3v3 faction-based (law/chaos/balance, I think), to 12v12 faction-based (gods vs gods) to PvP FFA. Each of these "worlds" is finite in duration, and, when destroyed, will be reborn as something different.

     

    Also, each world will have a completely different ruleset upon each rebirth. One might be full loot, but next iteration only allow one item to be looted, and next iteration will not allow loot at all. It's all very flexible and meant to present players with new challenges every time.

     

    This system allows ArtCraft to experiment with lots of different rules, weed out the ones that don't work, and keep the game fresh over years of gameplay.

     

    I really think that is one of the game's greatest strengths: a near-infinite ability to reinvent itself over time.

     

    I hope that helps, or maybe everybody already knew this, I dunno, it just seems like some people were confused.

     

    T

     

    PS- I believe that one of the rewards for "winning" when a world expires is that your faction gets to help design the ruleset for one of the upcoming worlds, so that's pretty good incentive to win, no?

    Thank you

    All this misinformation by the OP and answers based on  his misinformation was killing me inside. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt but I wasn't current enough on Crowfalls news to call him a liar.

    OP: "Whats 2 + 2 ... will you answer 13 or will you answer 17?

    Thread: "I'm going with 17 because 13 has always shown to be extremely unlucky plus my uncle's daughter friends Landlord favourite number is 13 and he was a psychopath. So you see everything associated with the number 13 is evil.. hence the movies!" image

    image
  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn Member EpicPosts: 3,430
    I don't think it's a matter of hiding.  It's a matter of not liking a certain mechanic.  Companies that offer different servers for different play styles is a pretty smart way of doing things.

    I self identify as a monkey.

  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Member UncommonPosts: 868
    Originally posted by turinmacleod

     

    PS- I believe that one of the rewards for "winning" when a world expires is that your faction gets to help design the ruleset for one of the upcoming worlds, so that's pretty good incentive to win, no?

    They should keep it random...

    This could easily be one sided. Don't get me wrong, I would love it if this is how it was but the posters that refer to themselves as "sheep" for the wolves don't exactly have the winning mentality if you know what I mean.

    image
  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    Originally posted by mgilbrtsn
    I don't think it's a matter of hiding.  It's a matter of not liking a certain mechanic.  Companies that offer different servers for different play styles is a pretty smart way of doing things.

    .. but if they do that, the PvP server will be deserted, don't you see?  This conclusion is not that difficult to understand. 

  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,165

    Between the ýes' and the ''Ï will not play Crowfall' the no is very low. 

     

    If you have to give no options in a game so that you can have the game play you want that means you have already lost. The argument that if you allow people to have different rules the server with the hardest rule will then suffer only further illustrates that fewer people play on those types of server by default.

    Garrus Signature
  • GolbezTheLionGolbezTheLion Member UncommonPosts: 347

    It's a game designed around PvP.

    I'll never understand why PvE'ers and players who dislike full loot PvP still flock to these games to try them out. You'd rather hide out on a carebear server, and in turn be ridiculed by the majority of the playerbase for doing so, instead of just playing the game as it was intended?

    If you prefer PvE with no risk from players then why do you not play any of the other games designed over the last fifteen years that are focused around PvE? You enjoy PvP, but not player looting? Again, there are any number of other games that fit that specific criteria, and you would be better suited to play them instead.

    Why are some people so scared to lose a few pixels upon death? Are you really that attached to your virtual possessions that the mere thought of losing any of them in combat causes you to tremble?

    No, I won't be hiding out on a carebear server and it would be a very cold day in Hell before I'd even consider such a thing.

  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn Member EpicPosts: 3,430
    Originally posted by LacedOpium
    Originally posted by mgilbrtsn
    I don't think it's a matter of hiding.  It's a matter of not liking a certain mechanic.  Companies that offer different servers for different play styles is a pretty smart way of doing things.

    .. but if they do that, the PvP server will be deserted, don't you see?  This conclusion is not that difficult to understand. 

    Not sure if you being funny or not.  So, I'm gonna answer as if you aren't.  The same people who won't play on a hardcore server probably wouldn't play the game at all if that was their only choice, so the population wouldn't be there anyway. However, by having a less brutal option, which will probably have a higher population, will help fund the less popular servers. Thus, we use the weak to fund the strong! :)

    I self identify as a monkey.

  • MardukkMardukk Member RarePosts: 2,222

    I just find it odd that people can outright say no to full or partial loot without having all the details.  The key to either of these working involves a ton of factors.  How can people that claim to like open world PvP say they will never play looting of any kind without trying the game?  I feel like people are just shutting down without even trying...kinda lame.  

     

    I prefer risky PvE over PvP battle after PvP battle.  I wouldn't know this if I hadn't tried Darkfall a couple years ago.  Sometimes people need go outside their comfort zone and surprise themselves that they could actually like something they don't think they would.

  • HowbadisbadHowbadisbad Member UncommonPosts: 453


    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Muke Originally posted by 5ubzer0 If you pvp at all, you should know that 95% of the playerbase will not play on a full loot server. People take their gear way too seriously these days.
    EVE Online is full loot and thriving.  
    Exceptions are not the rule =-) We will see if Corwfall falls under the norm of hardcore pure PvP game that falls on its face or something like EVE thats stands the test of time. IMO Crowfall is taking a risky road. Anyone who does not think so, does not know MMOs. They think they have a niche to fill. I hope they find it =)

    There aren't any other AAA MMOs with full loot for EVE to be an exception, as far as I know it's the only one.

    Waiting for:
    The Repopulation
    Albion Online

  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,829
    Originally posted by Kajidourden
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Muke
    Originally posted by 5ubzer0
    If you pvp at all, you should know that 95% of the playerbase will not play on a full loot server. People take their gear way too seriously these days.

    EVE Online is full loot and thriving.

     

    Exceptions are not the rule =-) We will see if Corwfall falls under the norm of hardcore pure PvP game that falls on its face or something like EVE thats stands the test of time. IMO Crowfall is taking a risky road. Anyone who does not think so, does not know MMOs. They think they have a niche to fill. I hope they find it =)

    Their alternative is to compete with the existing PvE titans who are all owned by rich developers and publishers (Blizzard, Bioware, Square Enix, Zenimax, etc...), no Indy's going to be able to compete with those projects that have budgets over a 100 million dollars.

    Pretty much the reason why you only see Indies jumping on the Open world PvP bandwagon, if they had to make a PvE game they wouldn't even manage to get in the same league as the average PWE MMO.

    I think they could have gone a smarter rout and made a PvP/PvE game that focused on PvP. Adding PvE like the old DAoC did. Open world dungeons designed to create PvP encounters. Each side started at a different end of the dungeon and the deeper you got the better the drops got. Only thing was, each side was working towards the center where all the good loot was. Risk reward PvE =-) Access to high end dungeons by how well you do in PvP. Even CU is not doing PvE. Crowfall and CU are almost fighting for the same pool of players. IMO, the one that adds its own niche unique PvE to the mix, will win. 

    This.  With two PvP games (not FOCUSED, straight up PvP games) being worked on at the same time, the bottom line is that niche is small and one of them will be going down the drain.  I think nanfoodle has the right of it here, whichever of them can differentiate themselves with some sort of non-PvP content will be the victor.

    Oh, and not to mention games like Das Tal and Albion.  I don't see more than one out of 4 lasting.

    I was just about to ask "Only two?" when I saw the Das Tal and Albion comment. There's practically a vast legion of them waiting to be released. Isn't Pathfinder pretty much the same deal too?

    I agree that adding SOME PvE would be good, even if it's just to draw their own niche, but I assume there's a reason for them not doing it. Maybe AI is too expensive and time consuming to pull off without a lot of resources? Much easier to just give the players clubs and tell them to have at it.

    And yep, I suspect most of them will be in for a grave disappointment as they are all targeting a rather small niche to begin with. (Especially if they are under the delusion the MOBA crowd will flock to their games because they obviously love PvP.)

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 10,637
    As much as this thread is built on miss information thats causing confusion to what Crowfall is really about, I do find it funny that the no vote only has 17% =-)
  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,829
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    As much as this thread is built on miss information thats causing confusion to what Crowfall is really about, I do find it funny that the no vote only has 17% =-)

    Definitely not the outcome the OP was hoping to see, I bet. :P

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • ThaneThane Member EpicPosts: 3,534

    yo listen up here's a story, about a little guy that lives in a blue world 
    and all day and all night and everything he sees ... is just blue 

     

    da ba dee da ba dei

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    Originally posted by mgilbrtsn
    Originally posted by LacedOpium
    Originally posted by mgilbrtsn
    I don't think it's a matter of hiding.  It's a matter of not liking a certain mechanic.  Companies that offer different servers for different play styles is a pretty smart way of doing things.

    .. but if they do that, the PvP server will be deserted, don't you see?  This conclusion is not that difficult to understand. 

    Not sure if you being funny or not.  So, I'm gonna answer as if you aren't.  The same people who won't play on a hardcore server probably wouldn't play the game at all if that was their only choice, so the population wouldn't be there anyway. However, by having a less brutal option, which will probably have a higher population, will help fund the less popular servers. Thus, we use the weak to fund the strong! :)

     

    Thanks for your response.  It is welcomed because it allows me to expand on my point further.  Your point is true and well taken.  Herein lies the truth behind the matter though.  The game was designed to be PvP focused.  In that regard, it needs a strong PvP base to be able to function as it was designed.  By not allowing a PvE server, they are "forcing" all of those who are willing to give it a try, which includes many PvE players, to engage in PvP in an attempt to convert them and their thinking, and eventually buy into the whole "non-consensual" PvP server.  Although a PvE server would arguably allow for a larger player base and revenue, they are willing to forego both at this time, in an attempt to "coerce" popularity in the game as it was designed.  Make no mistake, if this does not work it is virtually guaranteed that the next step will be a PvE server. Not unlike the whole "start out as P2P and then convert to F2P if it doesn't work out," this is the equivalent result as it applies to a designed PvP focused "non-consensual" PvP game vs. an alternative PvE server option.  They will try to convert you first, and when that fails, they will give in and "take the money." 

     

    One last thought ... it is my sincere opinion that game developers are "colluding," be it intentionally or unintentionally, to shift the MMORPG genre into more of a PvP focused alternative.  The reason being, if you haven't already guessed, is because PvE focused games are much costlier and difficult to design, develop, maintain, and ultimate release than a PvP focused game.  It has gotten to the point that the costs are just not there anymore to design, develop and maintain a successful PvE MMORPG now days.   And unless, or until, some new developer(s) come around with enough innovation, imagination, daring, and most importantly the financial backing to revolutionize the genre, we will continue to see this push toward PvP that we are seeing of late because with PvP, players are the content.  Such is the reality with the MMORPG industry today.

     

     

  • FdzzaiglFdzzaigl Member UncommonPosts: 2,433

    I thought the point was that you would venture out into the "high risk" servers to get better loot / rewards that you can then take back to the lower risk servers?

    If that remains true I will evidently be doing both. I probably wouldn't venture out into the higher risk areas with all my best stuff.

    Even if it's another system now, I'd still try to do everything the game has on offer.

    Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

  • AnthurAnthur Member UncommonPosts: 961

    Arghs, come on mods, why did you change the title ? I actually liked it.

    But seeing the poll result I am worried. How shall I hide on a blue server when the majority is playing there ? I am doomed.... ;)

  • MukeMuke Member RarePosts: 2,614
    Originally posted by LacedOpium
    Originally posted by Muke
    Originally posted by 5ubzer0
    If you pvp at all, you should know that 95% of the playerbase will not play on a full loot server. People take their gear way too seriously these days.

    EVE Online is full loot and thriving.

     

     

    Oh, the great Eve Online.  It never fails to be brought up in any conversation involving PvP.   It's the PvP saviour with its 350-400k player base.  Eve Online is the PvP equivalent of WoW the "oft-hated and frowned upon" PvE monster.  The only difference is that Eve Online has rarely, if ever, had a player base larger than 500k on 1 servercluster sandbox in a online world where player actions matter while WoW's player base has at times hovered over 12 million on servers with a max limit of 2k in a linear themepark setting where everyone is the same.

     

    Fixed it for you.

     

     

     

     

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn Member EpicPosts: 3,430
    Originally posted by LacedOpium
    Originally posted by mgilbrtsn
    Originally posted by LacedOpium
    Originally posted by mgilbrtsn
    I don't think it's a matter of hiding.  It's a matter of not liking a certain mechanic.  Companies that offer different servers for different play styles is a pretty smart way of doing things.

    .. but if they do that, the PvP server will be deserted, don't you see?  This conclusion is not that difficult to understand. 

    Not sure if you being funny or not.  So, I'm gonna answer as if you aren't.  The same people who won't play on a hardcore server probably wouldn't play the game at all if that was their only choice, so the population wouldn't be there anyway. However, by having a less brutal option, which will probably have a higher population, will help fund the less popular servers. Thus, we use the weak to fund the strong! :)

     

    Thanks for your response.  It is welcomed because it allows me to expand on my point further.  Your point is true and well taken.  Herein lies the truth behind the matter though.  The game was designed to be PvP focused.  In that regard, it needs a strong PvP base to be able to function as it was designed.  By not allowing a PvE server, they are "forcing" all of those who are willing to give it a try, which includes many PvE players, to engage in PvP in an attempt to convert them and their thinking, and eventually buy into the whole "non-consensual" PvP server.  Although a PvE server would arguably allow for a larger player base and revenue, they are willing to forego both at this time, in an attempt to "coerce" popularity in the game as it was designed.  Make no mistake, if this does not work it is virtually guaranteed that the next step will be a PvE server. Not unlike the whole "start out as P2P and then convert to F2P if it doesn't work out," this is the equivalent result as it applies to a designed PvP focused "non-consensual" PvP game vs. an alternative PvE server option.  They will try to convert you first, and when that fails, they will give in and "take the money." 

     

    One last thought ... it is my sincere opinion that game developers are "colluding," be it intentionally or unintentionally, to shift the MMORPG genre into more of a PvP focused alternative.  The reason being, if you haven't already guessed, is because PvE focused games are much costlier and difficult to design, develop, maintain, and ultimate release than a PvP focused game.  It has gotten to the point that the costs are just not there anymore to design, develop and maintain a successful PvE MMORPG now days.   And unless, or until, some new developer(s) come around with enough innovation, imagination, daring, and most importantly the financial backing to revolutionize the genre, we will continue to see this push toward PvP that we are seeing of late because with PvP, players are the content.  Such is the reality with the MMORPG industry today.

     

     

    As to your first point, I maintain, that the subset of people who dislike this type of PvP, wouldn't play anyway.  I would also argue that there is no collusion by companies to move away from PvE.  There are several reasons, but the one I think should be highlighted is that there are more PvEcentric players out there, than PvPcentric.  I believe that after all of the equations are done, including the ones you mentioned that need to be factored, the money is in PvE.

    I think the recent surge in PvP type games is the clamour from the PvP crowd.  Developers have heard and are gonna see if there is some coin to be made off of this.  The PvP/PvE vortex flows one way then the other.  

    I self identify as a monkey.

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