Can you think of a new form of endgame progression?

monochrome19

Once you're done leveling you Raid.

 

I'm tired of raiding, I'm tired of ever MMO having raids.

 

But is there really an alternative?

Albatroes

I've always been a fan of games that have exp progression even at max level to further develop your character, such as still gaining skill points at max level or having a completely new system at max level to further strengthen your character. Rift, FFXI and GW2 have systems like that which to me seem better than gear grinding since if new content comes along most of the gear wont carry over but the points from the system will. I wish more games broke away from the gear grind scene or at least made gear more versatile so you could swap it around in combat to enhance certain abilities (like FFXI). It would counter the pointlessness of gear grinding and hopefully make people focus on stats versus their item level. Sure your warrior is ilvl 670+ but its cause you have int accessories in your inventory that contribute to the ilevel....Hate that.

ozmono

I'm not sure why exactly you put this in the general gaming forums as it seems to be in relation to MMOs. Incase I'm missing something, different genres like city builders, strategy games and so on have different end games. Now incase this was meant for discussion about MMORPGs, yes there are alternatives and they already exist. Territorial control is the main alternative I can think of. Where players try to control territory and often build up their territory. There are many MMOs that offer this, if you want I can name a few.

Kyleran

Territory control, not a new idea though, but under utilized in a standard themepark.

 

observer

Well, almost all MMOs have a leveling system, and combat, as their focus, so they are much more limited for their "end-game" content.  There can be alternative progressions to max-level content, but in the end, it would still need to revolve around combat, such as acquiring talent/skill points, gear, etc.  Vanity items such as mounts, minipets, or housing items, isn't much of an incentive for end-game progression in a combat-focused game.

Loke666

I think AoC had the right idea with it's guildcity, even though things were far too simple there.

Building something together with your friends is a great MMO thing, you could allow the players to place and design houses, create npcs who live their, have their own personal rooms or houses and so on in it.

It do make many possibilities for PvP but it creating the town takes PvE and crafting skills. You can even let the guild farm for materials and breed mounts, clear mines from monsters to get in resources and such in the zone.

It is not enough to be the only endgame in an MMO but it certainly add a lot of things the players can spend time with. And just like raiding it allow many players working together. Smaller guilds might have a small village while larger guilds could have a huge city. And with guild run or player owned stores you get a lot more socialization to the game.

This is far better than a single player owned house or farm since here do the players work together even if the officers can assign you a personal lot in the town as well.

None instanced towns is more fun but you would probably have to instance many of the towns as well. You could let the largest most active guildtowns be the one currently in the none instanced world with an option to travel to the instances of the smaller guilds.

monochrome19

Originally posted by ozmono
I'm not sure why exactly you put this in the general gaming forums as it seems to be in relation to MMOs.

I usually post in the pub but when i do it gets moved to general so now I just post everything here >.<

Mavolence

personally, i abhor the idea of any "end game" at all. I prefer games without end game where its more horizontal progression and more about the journey than the destination. I never ever understood why developers would spend so much painstaking hours developing an area that becomes obsolete so soon as the player moves on as he/she out levels it or completes the content that is prepared. I'm more a fan of players driving content through interaction and being given tools to create.

Loke666

Originally posted by Mavolence
personally, i abhor the idea of any "end game" at all. I prefer games without end game where its more horizontal progression and more about the journey than the destination. I never ever understood why developers would spend so much painstaking hours developing an area that becomes obsolete so soon as the player moves on as he/she out levels it or completes the content that is prepared. I'm more a fan of players driving content through interaction and being given tools to create.

It is because a large majority of the players want to feel like they "win" the game. And since a lot of them think gaining max level is winning it is also the reason that MMOs have so hard time keeping the players more than 2 months.

You are of course right, in a "real" roleplaying game your character would improve as long as you continue to play, even though you improver slower and slower as you play. Actual people improve as long as they live (at least as long as they are healthy).

The powergap between new and old players really needs to go down a lot as well.

I say we should get rid of levels altogether and make a system closer to Runequest and Warhammer fantasy RPG than D&D. D&D is a great system but it only works when you play a limited time. In the pen and paper rules it takes many years to reach max level if you ever do it but MMOs are far more intesive (a D&D combat usually takes between 30 minuts and 2 hours while ina MMO it is a matter of minutes and people rarely play more than once a week there).

Yeah, we would lose some of the casual crowd but to be honest do most of them quit after 1-3 months anyways.

Moirae

A true next gen game will not have an end game at all. It will have a predictive and creative way of making new adventures, in new areas, so you won't become bored. But I don't think technology has reached that point yet, though they are trying. 

waynejr2

Originally posted by observer
Well, almost all MMOs have a leveling system, and combat, as their focus, so they are much more limited for their "end-game" content.  There can be alternative progressions to max-level content, but in the end, it would still need to revolve around combat, such as acquiring talent/skill points, gear, etc.  Vanity items such as mounts, minipets, or housing items, isn't much of an incentive for end-game progression in a combat-focused game.

A rose by any other name.

 

 

waynejr2

Originally posted by Moirae
A true next gen game will not have an end game at all. It will have a predictive and creative way of making new adventures, in new areas, so you won't become bored. But I don't think technology has reached that point yet, though they are trying. 

So your solution is a [magical thinking box].    How about you put some details here?

Kyleran

Originally posted by Moirae
A true next gen game will not have an end game at all. It will have a predictive and creative way of making new adventures, in new areas, so you won't become bored. But I don't think technology has reached that point yet, though they are trying. 

We already have a way to experience new adventures, new areas to alleviate boredom, it's called playing a different MMO.

For me "end game" is when the progression ends, more on the character side and not so much on the gear side.

So adding new adventures really doesn't do much for me if the progression has basically come to a halt, I need something to strive for, hence I stick with MMO's with territory control as their endgame, haven't found anything else that really holds my interest.

 

Cothor

There needs to be never ending skill caps with diminishing returns, this includes crafting.

Player housing taken straight from Ultima Online.

Make all items deteriorate and eventually become unrepairable.

No more standard raids. Make it more about public raids with giant bosses where your dmg/healing/harvesting/time in zone play a role in what you get from the dead boss, thus making paying attention to the bosses mechanics important.

Make guild wars and faction wars important and rewarding in their own way.

Player bounties. 

 

Basically take the original UO model, give it to the best graphic designers there are, take away the greif elements, and put it on the market

 

 

Sovrath

Originally posted by monochrome19

Once you're done leveling you Raid.

 

I'm tired of raiding, I'm tired of ever MMO having raids.

 

But is there really an alternative?

Since I actually don't believe in "end game" and am more interested in the "mmo as a world" idea, I would say that your "end game" is the same as what you should be doing all throughout your game.

politics, territory control, resource control, acquiring resources, selling resources, crafting for people who need armor and weapons and potions and clothes and "whatever else" the game can allow you to craft.

I think the world itself should supply the options and the players then fill their roles as they see fit.

I could even see gladiator and having players make actual bets on the outcomes.

This is not to say I don't believe in raids but I don't believe in them as a repeat, repeat, repeat type of thing so you can get better gear to unlock harder raids to repeat, repeat, etc.

 

Tsumoro

For me, its something a bit like PoE ability system, rather than "leveling" in a traditional sense you invest in your character directly. TSW has a very simular system, but I would want something a bit more diverse and robust. 

Sadly, things are hard when relying on the trinity, which in honest I don't mind, but I wish MMO's going forward allowed people to be a bit more self sufficent and tactical with encounters than just adhering to a specific role. 

Bladestrom

What about age as a progression model.  your character ages as you play, and as you get older you learn more skills.  The aging is tied to your play time.  The skills you learn as you get older are different and not more powerful.  You can opt to take an elixir of youth to maintain those good looks ofc. The game also has an AA model of advancement, where XP contributes to rewards and skills.  Progression is AA and simply enjoying playing your character and aging away.  Age can also combined with other stats, so for example if you are a certain age and have a certain kills to age ratio in your lifetime then you can be given special titles/skills, opening up quest chains etc.  

Critical factor is progress = more choice not more power stats.

 

Note age is a natural balance against power levelling. Another example is age = x + traded amount in lifetime =  y, this gives the title artisan trader, which gives a discount and also causes other npc traders to bow etc.   Theres a mission and one ways a mmorpg could expand when power is taken out of the equation.

Kilrain

I CAN! Don't focus on end game. That's how. Turn down leveling to a slow crawl. Place multiple dungeons throughout the world that players can enjoy through all their levels. Thousands of NPC's to encounter at all levels. Throw in some repeatable tasks and some quests for those that like it.

 

The point is by adding enjoyable content at every stage of the game the developers can slow down leveling to a point where they have plenty of time to add more content for later stages of gameplay.

 

I don't like controlled raids. I like open dungeons that sometimes have extremely difficult NPC's that require many players to take down. After all, this is how raids as we know them today started out.

Kilrain

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by Kilrain

I CAN! Don't focus on end game. That's how. Turn down leveling to a slow crawl. Place multiple dungeons throughout the world that players can enjoy through all their levels. Thousands of NPC's to encounter at all levels. Throw in some repeatable tasks and some quests for those that like it.

 

The point is by adding enjoyable content at every stage of the game the developers can slow down leveling to a point where they have plenty of time to add more content for later stages of gameplay.

 

I don't like controlled raids. I like open dungeons that sometimes have extremely difficult NPC's that require many players to take down. After all, this is how raids as we know them today started out.

let's take it further.

 

we level so we can gain skills, right? or level 1 would be overwhelming.

 

let's level for that reason only. no power gain from levels. gear itself and skill itself should drive ALL the power. 

 

a level 1 and a level 100 both naked autoattacking each other should be equally powerful.

I've thought of variations of this myself, but this one doesn't really change much. If the character has better skills/armor, the stats wont matter anyway.

kenpokiller

The World

You find yourself in a vast world full of barren lands, gaping seas and impenetrable mountain ranges. You are guiding the fate of a new people, a nation that begins its existence as a small stone age tribe.

But you are not alone in this land. You find many other nations like your own, each one guided by a clever and crafty intelligence like yourself. Each one vying for the same limited resources in this world. And each one seeking to give their nation the technological and strategic edge that will allow it to conquer all.

Winning

What are the stakes in this often brutal world? There are rumors of ancient and powerful orbs scattered throughout the landscape, their origins lost in the past. There may be dozens of them, some much more powerful than others. Any nation that possesses one of these orbs experiences a paradisic existence unknowable through any mortal means.

And what this means for you, for each of the guides of such a nation, is wealth. Every minute that your nation possesses an orb, its cash winnings can increase. Guard the orb fiercely, capture more of them, seek out the most powerful ones... and your winnings will add up. You can then easily distribute your nation's winnings to each player guiding the nation.

How to Succeed

How do you make your nation powerful enough to conquer? As your nation fights with other nations it will earn points. The more successful you are in battle, the more points you will earn. As your nation gains points its level will increase, and each time its level goes up it gains a new technology. You can choose which technologies your nation researches, favoring those that best compliment the abilities of your allies and can overcome the defenses of your enemies. And by choosing your allies carefully you can share what you've both learned to great benefit.

To gain an additional and often decisive edge against your enemies, you may sometimes choose to purchase special technologies, items and leaders that bring to your nation strengths that cannot be achieved otherwise. These special abilities are purchased using game credits, which you can either buy with real money via PayPal or StormPay, or acquire by converting your nation's winnings into credits.

Strategy, timing, negotiation and cunning are some of the skills you'll find useful toward achieving success in War of Conquest. Good luck, and may your nation grow strong and conquer!

 

http://www.warofconquest.com/docs/doc_introduction.htm

 

I've played Arcade, (S)NES, SEGA, PS series and XB series

2D...3D...

 

But this square-game, took it all, had it all but will be forever forgotten

Nations were built

Relations mingled

Prized Paid

And joy

TO BE HAD

Tensionx

I love the concept of group / guild progression - it's very lightly touched on by a few MMO's.

What I mean by this is unlocking things as a guild - as a team. 

So what might that look like? It might look like guild owned instances or worlds where each of your accomplishments unlocks a useful enviromental or crafting feature. Or perhaps even unlocks a unique set of "if this then that" instances or content that no one else has access to.

It's not hard to auto generate content, tons of games already do this.

I think part of the problem with end game progression in ARPG's is that they only reward the individual, so you end up with people grinding out top tier content for their own needs vs. pushing team play.

Horusra

Originally posted by Tensionx

I love the concept of group / guild progression - it's very lightly touched on by a few MMO's.

What I mean by this is unlocking things as a guild - as a team. 

So what might that look like? It might look like guild owned instances or worlds where each of your accomplishments unlocks a useful enviromental or crafting feature. Or perhaps even unlocks a unique set of "if this then that" instances or content that no one else has access to.

It's not hard to auto generate content, tons of games already do this.

I think part of the problem with end game progression in ARPG's is that they only reward the individual, so you end up with people grinding out top tier content for their own needs vs. pushing team play.

Kudos for being the only one that does not have PvP as the final option.  With PvP open world MMORPG being the smallest of the markets it is nice some people can think of something new.