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Since the game is "released", are the items bought in Kickstarter 2.5 years ago in game?

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  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619

    What does released mean to you supporters of the game? 

    Is it selling the game on a website - check

    Is it charging a full price sub fee - check

    Is it the CEO saying the game is not in testing - check

    Is it no longer having character wipes - check

    What is to stop me from creating a scam game, selling it, charging full price and then saying it is crowdforged and not released to save me from getting bad PR from reviews?  If the CEO had just followed through with his posted plans and asked for a monthly donation from players while the game was in beta phase, none of this would have happened.  Instead he has to use wordplay/puffery and call it "crowdforging" to then justify charging full price to be a beta tester.  The CEO brought this on himself.  If he had just been honest and followed the original plan, we would not be here right now arguing over the point of when something is released. 

    I can call my feces a rose but that doesnt make it smell like a rose.  Just calling something a new name does not change it into something else.  I would love my car to be a spaceship but calling it a spaceship wont make it one.  I can even come up with a new name like "ectoshiparoony" and it still wont become a spaceship.  I can remove the legs from a horse and it is still a horse.  I can remove its head, its tail, cut it in half, sew a dogs head on its rear end but it would still be a horse. 

    I ask you supporters to please give us your definition of what "released" means.  A definition that does not prevent scammers like Sergey Titov (War-Z) from being reviewed.  This site gave you its definition, no wipes and charging the full regular fee.  Please enlighten us with your wisdom and clear this up for us with your definition of released.

    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

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  • Avari3Avari3 Member Posts: 16
    I welcome the review and people can call it launched if they have to.  It actually has been soft launched, a viable and increasingly popular method of releasing products in many different sectors.  But soft launched is a sub set of launched, so if you have problems seeing shades of gray, you can call it that.
  • EdgeXEdgeX Member UncommonPosts: 39
    Originally posted by caldeathe
    Originally posted by EdgeX

    edit: Dude wtf lol..... I actually went to the website and the very first thing in the FAQ.

     What is Early Enrollment?

    This is the first phase of our launch of the game.

    Am I missing something here???

    I don't think you missed anything. Usually first phase means that something is starting. Final phase means it is complete. "First phase of our launch" means that the launch isn't complete.

    I feel like you're just proving my point. This is the first phase of launch, so launch has currently started. Multiple phases of launch doesn't change the fact that you're in a phase of launch.......If it was the way you seem to think it is, you would word it like "This is our first phase leading up to launch".

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Originally posted by EdgeX

    Ok, that's fair enough, but before you go throwing stones, maybe you should try to find a review on the game. For a "released" game you'd at least expect to find a SINGLE review. However, PFO isn't listed on Metacritic, there aren't any reviews on any major game sites, and there is but 1 review on the first page of Google, and that's from some unknown blogger.

     

    To be fair MMORPG reviews are not that common, unless it's a AAA release. PFO is not a AAA release, and most people don't even care about PFO. ArcheAge has been released for 9 months now, is way more popular than PFO (sorry it's true), and has a whopping 11 metacritic reviews. MMORPG's tend to get coverage, not reviews. PFO has gotten coverage, just not for the right reasons.

     

    edit: Dude wtf lol..... I actually went to the website and the very first thing in the FAQ.

     

    What is Early Enrollment?

    This is the first phase of our launch of the game.

     

     

    Am I missing something here???

    I agree. If you go to their website and read through their FAQs, then you might get more clarity. That's not the point I'm making. All I'm saying is that they've done a poor job communicating what their product is and what phase they're in. It's like if I went ahead and released a game saying "Delta testing now available!!". Generally speaking that means nothing. It's entirely manufactured. The generally accepted release terminology is well documented back to the early days of games. You have alpha, beta, release. There could be any number of internal phases of development but, to the public, it's alpha, beta, release. Even the idea of "Early Access" isn't accepted as release. However, we are to assume that Early Enrolment means "release". Sorry, it just sounds like a developer doing a brake-check, leaving themselves some room for excuses later on, "Well we're not fully released, it's just Early Enrolment, so we expect these issues."

     

    As far as reviews, I would agree that MMOs are going to get less coverage by media, but it's not just metacritic, it's the fact that even MMO-niche-related websites have not posted reviews yet. It means that there is a distinct and major lack of communication. I used to run a small MMORPG review website and even with a very teenie-tiny following, there were publishers, on a monthly basis, contacting me and asking if they could hook up with me to show me their new game and maybe give me a walkthrough. I'm really sorry, but it's a sad excuse. Also, I think that there are probably plenty of games listed on metacritic that are not AAA games. Shroud of the Avatar, Mortal Online, Xyson, and many more. Sorry, there is nothing that you can say that would pass as an acceptable excuse for not making the gaming community aware that you even exist, let alone that you've released a game!!

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

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  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,311
    Originally posted by caldeathe
    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    The company sold a ton of items as perks during the Kickstarter.  Now they have proclaimed that the game is launched but where are those items?  Are all of these in game now?  

    Actually, it's people here that have decided it's released. Goblinworks never "proclaimed" any such thing. They continue to say that release is close to a year away. All sorts of mechanisms aren't in place, including some of the kickstarter items.

    They can claim all they want,if they take money from people to allow access into the game,that is as ANY sale has been since gaming began.

    This whole new "gimmick"is nothing more than a get out of jail free card to release unfinished games and every dev is jumping on that bandwagon.

    I wish gamer's would quit with the nonsense,wait for games to be FINISHED before giving any money.If a developer can't  make the game without YOUR money,then too bad,i say let the game die.These new wave devs taking gamer's money before it is deserved are sitting in rich houses living the high life off YOUR money.

    We as gamer's owe developers nothing,let them find their own investors.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,868
    Originally posted by Thod

     

    f) Alpha as well as 'beta' did start later as advertised. Alpha a few month - beta half a year. 

     

     

    Thod, your post above highlights EXACTLY the double speak from Ryan that causes the confusion.  As you can see below, Ryan clearly states that he had an alpha that ran from June to December.   Exactly when was this beta you are referring to? It appears that even you are not on the same page as the CEO.  Is the Early Enrollment the  beta?  Because when I bought the Kickstarter package it said Alpha, BETA, then Early Enrollment and when it went to Early Enrollment and I started paying a sub it would be POLISHED.  They used that very word, not me.  Nobody in their right mind could consider the current game polished. So please expand on when you feel the beta happened or didn't happen and reconcile that with the CEO's statements as well as the Kickstarter pledges

     

     

    Originally posted by rsdancey

    It seems weird to me that you want to insist on using the term "alpha". We had an alpha. It ran from June to December.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

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  • umcorianumcorian Member UncommonPosts: 519

    They have cited that the game won't be up to standard MMO levels of polish until 2016. They are being upfront to anyone who's even paying the slightest bit of attention that the game is more or less a proof of concept - a barebones fantasy sandbox. It's functional, it's also not even close to being ready to go head to head with other buy to play + monthly sub games.

    That being said, why do people care? You're in the know because you spent all of 5-10 minutes researching the game. Only two kinds of people are giving Goblinworks money: uninformed, unintelligent people... or people who believe in the CEO's vision and want to help him actively fund it WHILE getting access to a barebone MMORPG that some might even actually enjoy playing.

    I don't see where anyone's getting harmed... or at least anyone I care about is getting harmed. Some people are supporting the game they want to see built. Good for them - I'm actually looking forward to the finished product. The other people are lemmings. Lemmings gonna lemming. If they didn't research the game, they sure as heck ain't gonna read a forum... so people trying to harm this game or call out the CEO for some grave, imagined offense are kinda annoying. 

  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    Originally posted by umcorian

     

    I don't see where anyone's getting harmed... or at least anyone I care about is getting harmed.

    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

    Edmund Burke

     
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • wmmarcellinowmmarcellino Member UncommonPosts: 94

    The level of the over-the-top-fury and just general crazy from some people over this is inexplicable.  Everything you guys are freaking out about was explicitly laid out.  Maybe you you don't choose to participate in it, but "Hey, we're doing development a little different: instead of a long closed period of development, we're going to get the basic systems up, and let people participate if they want to by paying a sub.  Or people can opt out and pay for the finished game when it's done.  Totally your choice," is pretty clear.

     

    Seriously, when GW laid out that they had a new development model, and that instead of 5 years of closed development and then a short public test beta, they were going to do this new thing were 1) you got to be involved but 2) it cost money, was it too hard a concept for you to understand?  They spelled it out in detail, at great length, over and over again.  How could you not get it?

    The level of outrage would only make sense if GW did the opposite of what they said they would.  Saying, "Hey yo, we're going to do X, Y, and Z," and then doing exactly X, Y, and Z seems pretty transparent.

     

     

    Do the RIGHT THING: come be a Paladin with us! http://ozemsvigil.guildlaunch.com/

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,868
    Originally posted by wmmarcellino

    The level of the over-the-top-fury and just general crazy from some people over this is inexplicable.  Everything you guys are freaking out about was explicitly laid out.  Maybe you you don't choose to participate in it, but "Hey, we're doing development a little different: instead of a long closed period of development, we're going to get the basic systems up, and let people participate if they want to by paying a sub.  Or people can opt out and pay for the finished game when it's done.  Totally your choice," is pretty clear.

     

    Seriously, when GW laid out that they had a new development model, and that instead of 5 years of closed development and then a short public test beta, they were going to do this new thing were 1) you got to be involved but 2) it cost money, was it too hard a concept for you to understand?  They spelled it out in detail, at great length, over and over again.  How could you not get it?

    The level of outrage would only make sense if GW did the opposite of what they said they would.  Saying, "Hey yo, we're going to do X, Y, and Z," and then doing exactly X, Y, and Z seems pretty transparent.

     

     

    You can say the same thing another 40 times and it will still be wrong. 

     

    Please explain to me when the Beta took place.  The Kickstarter package stated Alpha, Beta... and THEN you would start to pay a sub for a POLISHED Early Entry.  It was supposed to be polished but small in size and they would grow.

     

    Are you claiming that is what happened in reality?  Or are you ignoring their published package information and just using their later modified post-Kickstarter wording?  

     

    Even Thod is posting information (6 month beta) that conflicts with what the CEO has said.  It's an ever changing story.

     

     

     

     

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,868
    Originally posted by Talonsin
    Originally posted by umcorian

     

    I don't see where anyone's getting harmed... or at least anyone I care about is getting harmed.

    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

    Edmund Burke

     

    It's about lowering the bar for every game that comes later.  There will always be someone out there that will try to shovel even less to the consumer because they can point at someone else and say "At least we aren't as bad as they are!"

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,868
    Originally posted by caldeathe
    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    It's about lowering the bar for every game that comes later.  There will always be someone out there that will try to shovel even less to the consumer because they can point at someone else and say "At least we aren't as bad as they are!"

    At least be honest. It's really about some people knowing what's best for other people and the rest of us shouldn't be allowed to make this decision for ourselves because if we disagree, we're obviously not smart enough to take care of ourselves.

    I couldn't care less what YOU do.  Give them $100000 for all I care.  But I have no issue voicing my displeasure with the state of the game and trying to redefine what we consider acceptable condition to launch and charge for a game.   Feel free to make YOUR case all you want.  Not once have I stopped and asked you not to make your case. 

     

    THAT is the difference.  Clear as a bell for most readers.

     

     

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,868
    Originally posted by caldeathe
    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    I would say they flat out LIED.  And Ryan if what I say below is incorrect please feel free to correct me.  Here is a cut and past of a sample Kickstarter Tier:

    Crowdforger Epic Brewmaster - Patrons at this level get all the Pioneer level rewards, including month one access to the Beta through the Early Enrollment process. In addition, you will provide Goblinworks with a proper name for a character. That name will be associated with a fine ale or distilled spirit served at finer Taverns throughout the land! (The copyright to the character name and background you provide will be held by Paizo Publishing, LLC, which reserves the right to reject inappropriate, anachronistic, or vulgar content.)

    As you can see.  They described BETA as a separate event. Totally distinct from Early Enrollment.   Their Kickstarter Tiers state they will have an Alpha, a Beta.. and then an Early Enrollment.

    As far as I can tell, and Ryan has never answered... they went right from Alpha to Early Enrollment.  According to the Kickstarter, the people that pledged should have had access to a beta, for which there was no subscription.  Before paying a sub, as per your quote above- ALL BASIC SYSTEMS WILL BE IMPLEMENTED AND POLISHED. Not even the most diehard fan could say the game is even slightly polished in it's current state.

    So when we pledged and were told there would be an Alpha AND a Beta that we would have access to.. and instead we were tossed into an Early Enrollment where you charge a sub... How is that not flat out lying?

    And in the spirit of the thread... Have any Epic Brewmasters named their Fine Ale yet?

    I do not think that the average person will read "including month one access to the Beta through the Early Enrollment process." the way you are implying it was meant.

    I have never read anything that caused me to think that kickstarter backers (Other than the thousand dollar+ accounts) would get a free ride in beta/EE. If you supported at the $1K level, then you should be playing free through until Open Enrollment. Other than that, no-one was ever promised free play in beta.

     

    Wow... now the argument is that people should have assumed that they would have to pay a sub to participate in the beta? This seems like a VERY disingenuous argument.  But you know what would solve this?  Ryan or someone in an official capacity can answer for himself !

     

    So Ryan, was your stated plan during Kickstarter that all beta participants would be paying a sub? 

     

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • Farmer1124Farmer1124 Member Posts: 8

    The critique seems a bit overkill.

    The game is no where near the condition of final.  The CEO can say all he wants, won't change that fact.  People are over paying.  Boo hoo.  Release vs. Beta vs. Early Enrollment vs. Steaming Turd; who cares.

    The game is losing players, and that drop will increase as the "free" months are used up.  Then what?  MMO death spiral.  Maybe someone jumps in to invest or buy them out, but I honestly don't see that with this product.  Maybe it manages to hang on and eek out some form of existence.

    Time to move on.  Nothing to see here.

  • GolbezTheLionGolbezTheLion Member UncommonPosts: 347
    Originally posted by wmmarcellino

    The level of the over-the-top-fury and just general crazy from some people over this is inexplicable.  Everything you guys are freaking out about was explicitly laid out.  Maybe you you don't choose to participate in it, but "Hey, we're doing development a little different: instead of a long closed period of development, we're going to get the basic systems up, and let people participate if they want to by paying a sub.  Or people can opt out and pay for the finished game when it's done.  Totally your choice," is pretty clear.

     

    Seriously, when GW laid out that they had a new development model, and that instead of 5 years of closed development and then a short public test beta, they were going to do this new thing were 1) you got to be involved but 2) it cost money, was it too hard a concept for you to understand?  They spelled it out in detail, at great length, over and over again.  How could you not get it?

    The level of outrage would only make sense if GW did the opposite of what they said they would.  Saying, "Hey yo, we're going to do X, Y, and Z," and then doing exactly X, Y, and Z seems pretty transparent.

    The level of blind fanboyism expressed by yourself and the three or four other supporters who champion PFO on this forum is absolutely inexplicable.

    I stopped paying attention to you after you attempted to "call me out" in another thread about what settlement I was a part of during my time with the game. Then when I answered, and it became undeniable that I actually did play, you had nothing to say.

    You few are a tribute to just how brainwashed people can get over the chance that something they like (love,etc...) might come to fruition eventually. You buy into "potential", then you proceed to make every effort to convince others that they don't know what they are talking about the moment they start giving negative criticism about the product you bought into. You make bold assumptions, point out obvious facts that were never up for debate, and completely ignore or gloss over the arguments that you cannot counter.

    I've seen alot of crazy shit on this forum over the years, but you dudes take the cake.

  • AkulasAkulas Member RarePosts: 2,626

    I got the game to check it out expecting it to be crap since it's early days. Is there something I'm missing? I'm not getting the point of the game because I couldn't figure out how to gain xp other than setting my character to training after I finished playing and the 3 other players that were there helpful as they were actually jumped this guy for trying to get my stuff and got it back for me.

     

    This game would be most fun with kingdom vs kingdom or settlement vs settlement which I assume is where the game would play best unless you like ganking randoms.

     

    All I did in there was check off a task list of stuff to do which has been done before in other games. Kill afew desperate goblins, run afew resources which would be interesting with other pvp around something I could do for awhile given the right incentives but I don't know if it's really for me as I like gaining xp while I do things and not set on a timer.

     

    So, sadly had to ask for a refund just only for the fact I couldn't find a way to get xp. This was handled literally within 30 seconds of me sending an email. I will come back if I feel like playing a Mortal Online type of game some time in the future but it's early days and it's something I'll be keeping an eye out for the future just not right now.

     

    Oh and there this guy named Ryan too if you got any problems. I'm sure you may heard of that person. I don't know who's who in the community or anything but the KS items should be on their way. Good luck and possibly see you guys in Pathfinder next year some time.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • AudoucetAudoucet Member UncommonPosts: 69
    Originally posted by caldeathe
    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    It's about lowering the bar for every game that comes later.  There will always be someone out there that will try to shovel even less to the consumer because they can point at someone else and say "At least we aren't as bad as they are!"

    At least be honest. It's really about some people knowing what's best for other people and the rest of us shouldn't be allowed to make this decision for ourselves because if we disagree, we're obviously not smart enough to take care of ourselves.

    If you decide that a car without any security system, without brake, and working with depleted uranium Is worth your money because you like it and you don't care about the inconvenience, it doesn't mean that it should be sold anyway.

    Stop being egotistic. Your intelligence isn't the point, the point is the overall impoverishment of the market quality.

    I don't care if you're happy paying €500 to play 1990 Pacman, but I don't want it to become the new norm, I want games to get better. 

  • ThodThod Member UncommonPosts: 14
    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    Wow... now the argument is that people should have assumed that they would have to pay a sub to participate in the beta? This seems like a VERY disingenuous argument.  But you know what would solve this?  Ryan or someone in an official capacity can answer for himself !

     

    So Ryan, was your stated plan during Kickstarter that all beta participants would be paying a sub? 

     

     

    YES that was always Ryans plan - go to the blog on the Goblinworks site dated November 30 2012. One sub-heading is 'Why is it paid'.  It not only outlines that you pay for beta but also why and the new model that GW tries out for PFO. The Kickstarter was running from 27th November 2012 to 14 January. So it was cleary laid out that you pay during beta and not afterwards.

    I'm sure there is somewhere information predating the 27th - but that describes the whole process best.

    Post Kickstarter beta got renamed to Early Enrollment - but that didn't make it free. You could argue that Ryan didn't fulfill his promise of a Internet-Beta not Buggy-beta - but that is a different discussion. Paying for beta was always envisoned from day 1 (well - my source is day 3 - but the course didn't change between day 1 and day 3 and I'm sure there is somewhere else earlier information).

    https://goblinworks.com/blog/what-to-expect-from-early-access-beta/

     

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  • thunderclesthundercles Member UncommonPosts: 510
    This is a freaking mess. If its not in testing how is it still in beta? If its not in testing then what is it in? What does early enrollment mean? I was thinking it was like paying to see a movie early or have early access to a finished product but in don't think its a finished product correct? What do you have early access to? What state is the game in? If the game is different at release then it is now then it's obviously not a finished product. And if its not a finished product it is it still in testing? Is it still in development? I just don't understand what's going on?

    If I was a more cynical person I would say it sounds like they trying to validate charging at a released game price by saying it's early access, but they don't want to be responsible for bugs or other incompleteness and so they don't officially say it's released.
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