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Selling Power

rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,502

Selling Power.
I used to compare an Aurora to a Banu Merchantman to give a hypothetical idea of how paying up front would give a person much more income over someone that chose not to pay. When the old freight numbers were in place that resulted in the $250 Banu Merchantman having 375 times the income (right off the bat) compared to a $45 starter ship.

This has now been superseded by the Hull E, a $550 cargo vessel that can move 102 times that of a Banu Merchantman, or 38,400 times that of a $45 starter ship.

To see how this could totally screw things over from day one.
As an example you can do 1 cargo run per hour and you play for 4 hours on release day, each cargo run gives you a profit of 1000 UEC per SCU (SCU = Freight Unit/4).

  • An Aurora can move 4 SCU per run, 16 SCUs in total for 16,000 UEC profit.
  • A Banu can move 1500 SCU per run, 6000 SCUs in total for 60,000 UEC profit.
  • A Hull E can move 153600 SCU per run, 614,400 SCUs in total for 614,400,000 UEC profit.

WTF?

Bear in mind that 1000 UEC = $1, look at the nightly profit and divide by 1000 for additional lulz

Comments

  • wandericawanderica Member UncommonPosts: 370

    Your math is correct, but you're not considering other possible variables.  For starters, where is the "poverty line?"  In other words, how much trading will someone who chose not to buy a $550 ship have to do to obtain one through in-game means?  Maybe a ship comparable in capacity will be available for a reasonable amount of credits.  This would lessen the gap significantly.  How much do other methods of making credits offer compared to trading, such as pirating for more valuable goods?  Your example does not take into account product availability either.  What good are those 150000 cargo spaces if you can only purchase 1000?  Finally, what good are all those credits if one needs only a fraction of them for upgrades and new ships?  If this was Elite: Dangerous, I'd agree that it is a game breaking issue.  I hear your concerns, and agree that it has the potential to be an issue, but maybe it won't be as bad as you think.


  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,254

    What is your (official) source for that 1000 UEC per SCU  value ?

    It is not quoted in either the cargo article nor the MISC Hull article.

    Would not the prospective Day 1 trader have to first acquire a significant amount of money to be able to buy enough cargo to fill up his large sized MISC Hull ship ?   In Elite: Dangerous it took quite a while to obtain enough cash to fill up a Cargo Niner .... and you risked all that money in case of ship destruction.  In SC your  UEC wallet size (UEC obtained from real world money) is very  limited, certainly not enough to fill up  a big MISC Hull cargo hold on Day 1.

    Even if (s)he transports goods for others and does not pay for the cargo herself/himself, i imagine a significant cash investment up front for some kind of cargo insurance or security payment/deposit  (so you do not just steal the cargo) - like the systems used by EVE Online. Once again, a Day 1 trader will most likely not have the cash to pay for the sum required by HUGE transport missions on day 1.

    Keep also in mind that a large cargo ship has to stick to jump routes with jump points that allow passage of a large ship. So the Hull E might have to do a 22 jump voyage, while a more agile Aurora could use small jump points and travel to the same coordinates with a much more optimized 4 jump route (numbers are invented and for example only).

    Furthermore a Hull E is a fat juicy target. Without a merc detail on board and/or an armed escort of fighters - which all cost extra - i assume that many of those unaffiliated unprotected Day 1 bulk traders will be wrecked and boarded. Especially with many well known EVE organizations already planning to apply their infamous swarm tactics in Star Citizen. They will most likely not bother a small Aurora - not enough phat loot, not enough tears to be had.

    Based on these assumptions i imagine that the gap will not be as large as described by you on Day 1. Certainly someone with a larger cargo ship will have it easier on Day 1 to make money.

    But it is just a different experience: Some want to play bulk traders. Some want to play independent small volume couriers. All depends on your playstyle. 

     

    Have fun

  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,802

    I don't need math to know that buying ships for up to 2000$ is pay to win.

    Even if your calculation doesn't take some ingame mechanics into account, it makes clear that there will be a huge problem.

     

    However, you are wasting your time here. The fans will jump in and tell you that everything is perfect and working as intended.

    Harbinger of Fools
  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,502

    Originally posted by wanderica

    Your math is correct, but you're not considering other possible variables.  For starters, where is the "poverty line?"  In other words, how much trading will someone who chose not to buy a $550 ship have to do to obtain one through in-game means?  Maybe a ship comparable in capacity will be available for a reasonable amount of credits.  This would lessen the gap significantly.  How much do other methods of making credits offer compared to trading, such as pirating for more valuable goods?  Your example does not take into account product availability either.  What good are those 150000 cargo spaces if you can only purchase 1000?  Finally, what good are all those credits if one needs only a fraction of them for upgrades and new ships?  If this was Elite: Dangerous, I'd agree that it is a game breaking issue.  I hear your concerns, and agree that it has the potential to be an issue, but maybe it won't be as bad as you think.

    If you start with an Aurora (poverty line) earning 1000 UEC per SCU and you transport 16 SCUs per night. That means the Hull E which is (at minimum) 550,000 UEC will take 35 nights to earn.

    Availability of goods is certainly a good point but as the populations are 90% NPCs there will be a huge amount of cargo transported by NPC compared to what players move which should allow much more market seeding.

    Bearing in mind that someone starting with a Hull E would earn 21.5 billion UEC in the same time, and what that enables them to do in the game. Sure it's hypothetical at this point but it's the imbalance that should be a bit concerning.

     

    Originally posted by Erillion

    What is your (official) source for that 1000 UEC per SCU  value ?

    It is not quoted in either the cargo article nor the MISC Hull article.

    Would not the prospective Day 1 trader have to first acquire a significant amount of money to be able to buy enough cargo to fill up his large sized MISC Hull ship ?   In Elite: Dangerous it took quite a while to obtain enough cash to fill up a Cargo Niner .... and you risked all that money in case of ship destruction.  In SC your  UEC wallet size (UEC obtained from real world money) is very  limited, certainly not enough to fill up  a big MISC Hull cargo hold on Day 1.

    Even if (s)he transports goods for others and does not pay for the cargo herself/himself, i imagine a significant cash investment up front for some kind of cargo insurance or security payment/deposit  (so you do not just steal the cargo) - like the systems used by EVE Online. Once again, a Day 1 trader will most likely not have the cash to pay for the sum required by HUGE transport missions on day 1.

    Keep also in mind that a large cargo ship has to stick to jump routes with jump points that allow passage of a large ship. So the Hull E might have to do a 22 jump voyage, while a more agile Aurora could use small jump points and travel to the same coordinates with a much more optimized 4 jump route (numbers are invented and for example only).

    Furthermore a Hull E is a fat juicy target. Without a merc detail on board and/or an armed escort of fighters - which all cost extra - i assume that many of those unaffiliated unprotected Day 1 bulk traders will be wrecked and boarded. Especially with many well known EVE organizations already planning to apply their infamous swarm tactics in Star Citizen. They will most likely not bother a small Aurora - not enough phat loot, not enough tears to be had.

    Based on these assumptions i imagine that the gap will not be as large as described by you on Day 1. Certainly someone with a larger cargo ship will have it easier on Day 1 to make money.

    But it is just a different experience: Some want to play bulk traders. Some want to play independent small volume couriers. All depends on your playstyle. 

     

    Have fun


    I'm basing off CR's numbers that a $250 Constellation will take ~60 hours to earn. $1 = 1000 UEC so $250 = 250,000 UEC

    Dividing 250,000 UEC / 60 hours = 4000 UEC p/hr. As his estimate was based on the earnings from an Aurora that means each SCU = 1000 UEC p/hr (seeing it has 4 SCU for a total of 4000 UEC p/hr).

    The trouble here is if you can earn 614 million UEC per night you can pay however much you like for escorting and everybody involved would be making a huge amount of money compared to what they should be earning.

    ---

    To be fair I don't really care about the numbers. I do care about the disparity and maintaining some attempt at balance or at least consistency between earning capabilities, but these official numbers appeared to have been pulled from CIG's collective ass. This disparity is something that I've brought up a number of times.

    Why should a ship that costs 12 times an Aurora be able to earn 38,400 times the Aurora? How is that balance?

    If the Hull E was capable of carrying 18 times the cargo it would be passable but 38,400 is not. Not by a long shot. What it does to the game in the long term is what concerns me.

  • BascolaBascola Member UncommonPosts: 425

     

    This game will be a nightmare when it finally releases.

    There has never been a game that is selling ships for thousands of dollars that give people huge advantages from the start. No one of their Team has experience with this scenario and the balancing issues. They are stabbing in the dark as illustrated by the OP.
     
    Compare this to buying end game armor and Weapons that you can use on your level 1 in a Fantasy MMO. Yeah, it's a disaster waiting to happen.
     
    _____
     
    I am a Kickstarter Aurora backer and i will be playing once it's released, but i am honestly not looking forward to it because it will be a huge mess.
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,254

    You DO know that there is at least one year head-start before official game launch for testing the Persistent Universe ... which includes balancing trade income from various ships ? 

    Yes, imbalances during testing can and does happen. Such imbalances will immediately become apparent even in the earliest test phase with 5 systems. And just as ships/weapons/equipment are being tested and balanced ("nerfed"), so will the economic system (including hauling and trading) be tested.

    Any number of solutions come to my mind if they become necessary  - e.g.

    a) diminishing profit as volume goes up   (per kg the local transport in a VW Sprinter van is more expensive than the transport in a 60000 BRT bulk cargo ship on the high seas).

    b) limit trade routes for large ships based on jump point size (smaller ships having many more options, some systems unreachable by bulk haulers etc.)

    c) reduce profit margins based on competition by bulk NPC traders

    d) loading times for bulk cargo haulers (small cargo ship may be there and back before the big one has even finished loading)

    etc.

     

    Have fun

  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,502

    Yes I do agree. But they haven't talked about any variables that might offset the differences so we can only base estimates on the information that we're given. As long as that is made clear any official numbers are fair game.

    Personally I expect wrong numbers during development, within reason. If the stats were double ot quadruple what they should be and then balanced down that would be one thing but 38000x higher?

    And that leads to expectation of sale, Is it right to offer something for sale with information that is (hopefully) obscenely out of kilter. Surely some form of due diligence should be in place, and if there is due diligence then I really don't know what to say?

    People buy these things with ideas of what they will or won't be able to do, to see those plans get utterly destroyed, we're not talking 18 cargo instead of 24 is going to cause quite a bit of resentment especially when they have forked over $550.

  • TswordZTswordZ Member UncommonPosts: 66

    Hmm, have a big ship early is nice, but without the money for buying the cargo... it will be a big loss.

    But yes, it's also an advantage, especially if it's used in group, putting the cargo of several people in the ship and then dividing the earnings.

    However, the smaller ship still can have a bigger container, or it will be easier to buy another ship (like a Hull B or C) for start trading bigger and then keep growing. If he uses the money in the right way, he could get a nice ship in not much time.

    And yeah, having bigger/better ships from start it's an advantage anyway, but if the system it's doing right, that advantage won't last long.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 41,509

    Haven't really been following this game in detail, but what advantage exactly does someone have who is mega wealthy?

    Is there something really useful/powerful to spend it on?

    In EVE there's supremely powerful, expensive ships to buy with cash, and bills to pay to upkeep all the stations and stuff, but what do you need to spend money on in SC?

    Is it really that much of an advantage to be rich?

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  • muppetpilotmuppetpilot Member UncommonPosts: 171
    Originally posted by Dakeru

    I don't need math to know that buying ships for up to 2000$ is pay to win.

    Even if your calculation doesn't take some ingame mechanics into account, it makes clear that there will be a huge problem.

     

    However, you are wasting your time here. The fans will jump in and tell you that everything is perfect and working as intended.

     

    ^  This is pretty much exactly how I feel.  I have read a lot of arguing back and forth over SC, but I don't need much to see that spending early on that level is going to grant many huge advantages over the run-of-the-mill player.

    I am actually rather surprised at the amount of both support and bashing SC is getting, considering that only a handful of people have ever played it in any capacity.  But as that one guy said above, imho this is akin to letting people buy end-game equipment at level 1 and begin using it almost immediately. 

    "Why would I want to loose a religion upon my people? Religions wreck from within - Empires and individuals alike! It's all the same." - God Emperor of Dune

  • Agricola1Agricola1 Member UncommonPosts: 4,977
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Haven't really been following this game in detail, but what advantage exactly does someone have who is mega wealthy?

    Is there something really useful/powerful to spend it on?

    In EVE there's supremely powerful, expensive ships to buy with cash, and bills to pay to upkeep all the stations and stuff, but what do you need to spend money on in SC?

    Is it really that much of an advantage to be rich?

    I've never played an MMO where having lots of expendable real life cash to buy in game crap wasn't an advantage. If some guy wants to fork out $500 for a transport ship, then purchase UEC to buy the cargo in game, then haul it and avoid pirates and such and maybe get to his destination and sell it for a profit ... then that's fine by me.

    Is there something I can buy to give me an advantage? Yes there is.

    I can buy a Super Hornet now for about $100 and I'll kick butt in PvP against those newbies that didn't. However I have a feeling that maintenance of a Super Hornet isn't going to be cheap in the PU (persistant Universe) and it's very short range with no cargo space. And just like EvE I'd be willing to bet there are plenty of arseholes out there chomping at the bit to take me down, hiding around every corner.

    Adding a new hauler and getting its stats perfectly balanced won't happen day 1. I'm sure it will eventually ... and then they'll release the next hauler :)

    But I think people have to get over this PTW moaning (not you Kyleran), I remember when guys spent thousands of dollars for their Jedi Knight chars in SWG. They'd walk into a bar the first day, take out their lightsaber like the local hardman ... expecting all of us to cower in fear. The next thing he knew half the server was clone camping him into oblivion!

    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"

    CS Lewis

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