I used to play MMORPG's like crazy, and all kind of "hardcore" games... now I just rather play a card game or tower defense game on smartphone. My past self would not believe it.
It's not the games.
It's you.
You are actually the audience all of the features you are lambasting are aimed at.
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
Why not play games where you can advance without any questing or following any storyline?
Some games like ArcheAge you actually level up *faster* by crafting or fishing/mining gathering etc than questing.
thats how it works for subscribers? i saw pure hell when i noticed everything i did in the game from gathering mats to crafting drained my already small pool of LP as a non subscriber. So no, it is not faster to level up doing anything other than questing.
But again, maybe you are specifically talking about subscribers.
Your concern over your labor pool is actually overriding the desire to level faster.
In AA is isn't even debatable that expending your LP on certain activities yields crazy amounts of XP.
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
After actually reading the op's post, I found it funny that he actually thinks that games promote unsocial behavior. I'll admit more games cater to a solo experience but it doesn't impact the social setting. You can still talk to people in 5 mans and junk but you're going to blame the game if they don't reply to you? Sometimes people just don't feel like talking or just don't natively speak the same language. There's been many occasions where I'll get into a party where everyone does not speak English. Content can increase a setting to be more socialable but honestly it comes down to the people. People will talk if they want, you just need to know how to talk to people lol. It just seems like more and more people want everything done for them so they can live life on easy mode. "OMG the game doesn't help me make friends. This game sucks." Grow up.
Undeleted the account to respond because there's insigthful comments and not just defending of ffxiv or the themepark MMORPG model.
Tell me how WoW and others have not started to incorporate many mechanics that allow people very conveniently not to socialize. If people are given the choice, people likely will not socialize much, apparently.
My ideal MMORPG would not have auction house (without clear penalty), too much fast travel or dungeon finder. All these feature suck and will suck forever for the type games mmorpgs are, in my personal opinion and taste.
Guess what I don't expect just somebody else to socialize, -I- made hundreds, possibly thousands 5 man groups in WoW. -I- tried to start up conversation most times until I also became sore of all the crap, made bunch of friends, randomly found leveling partners, world PvP, was guild leader at the end, tried RP and everything. But there was clear dying of social atmosphere at a point. A lot thanks to change in gamers, our attitudes, but tied and maybe ultimately started by with what kind of mechanics were developed into the game and with what sort of mentality the game was developed. FFXIV is the same ideas, just with bit japanese flavor, cuteness and stuff.
I want to socialize randomly with random people that I can meet again (randomly). Guilds and cross server dungeons don't go well with this. I don't Care how it should be possible to become friends on cross server dungeon but to me it was very clear that in practise I used to find a bunch of friends befor the feature, after it many DIDN'T EVEN BOTHER TO SAY HELLO, this is most bothering thing. People cooperating virtually next to each other but don't even say hello.
But it's completely true, I have seen too much of the puzzle, Ive solved the puzzle. Or whatever you want to see it as, there's a problem in me as well. Or yeah, rather I've outgrown the genre.
Games mentioned: darkfall, Eve, hearthstone, I've played all of these. Hearthstone I actually play on the phone every few days. Darkfall development I followed since when it was still going to be vaporware in most people's opinion. Eve is still brilliant idea in my mind, but to actually play it... This has been discussec enough as well, some people get along with and are dedicated enough to really get into it, it's very social game but requires too much to get there and remain there. And just feels too hostile to me, it's exactly this feeling of hostility that bothers me.
I don't know how playing card game or Tower defense on my phone in any way makes what I'm saying irrelevant or silly or whatever... I don't play them for MMORPG features because they aren't such. Logic fell past me on this one. My phone happens to be only hardware i have that plays current stuff well. I was sceptic on the whole smartphone thing... well some games work well with the touch screen and now there's enough processing power.
The reason why so many players don't get any satisfaction from these types of games is that we already done them. If gaming is a puzzle then ff14 is a puzzle you probably already solved 15 times while playing wow and once you start playing ff14 you notice all the pieces and where to fit them, and that's just not fun. Some people can still find satisfaction from that sort of activity, but others needs something different/harder.
It has nothing to do with burnout, which involves something completely different.
That applies to any matured genre. FPS, racing, RTS, MOBA, fighting games. All games are simply derivations of the genre staples. Yet only in the MMO genre is part of the community constantly asking for "something else" that simply won't happen.
This is the genre now. Take it or leave it. This incessant whining is not an option.
I'm sorry but I disagree, ArcheAge and Eve have already proven against what you are saying. The genre just needs AAA quality handling of sandbox games now. Nothing is wrong with AA or EVE as games. AA's problem is that its being mishandled on the customer service front. Where as EVE's issue is that its in a genre that is limited by preference.
If SE for example brought out a FF themed sandbox MMORPG it would sell like hotcakes
What the industry needs to create right now is the WOW version of the sandbox mmorpg - something accessible but with all the open world goodness of a SWG, AA, EVE and the like. The market is at the point right now where a well made sandbox mmo that's accessible would be welcomed if it had high production values.
Even better? A high end sandpark mmorpg
We don't need anymore themeparks.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Why not play games where you can advance without any questing or following any storyline?
Some games like ArcheAge you actually level up *faster* by crafting or fishing/mining gathering etc than questing.
thats how it works for subscribers? i saw pure hell when i noticed everything i did in the game from gathering mats to crafting drained my already small pool of LP as a non subscriber. So no, it is not faster to level up doing anything other than questing.
But again, maybe you are specifically talking about subscribers.
Subscribers who have 5 characters on 1 server, each chugging LP potions they bought off the Cash Shop. That's what he means. Games like AA are great, if you are wealthy and bored, but so few of us are both.
The reason why so many players don't get any satisfaction from these types of games is that we already done them. If gaming is a puzzle then ff14 is a puzzle you probably already solved 15 times while playing wow and once you start playing ff14 you notice all the pieces and where to fit them, and that's just not fun. Some people can still find satisfaction from that sort of activity, but others needs something different/harder.
It has nothing to do with burnout, which involves something completely different.
That applies to any matured genre. FPS, racing, RTS, MOBA, fighting games. All games are simply derivations of the genre staples. Yet only in the MMO genre is part of the community constantly asking for "something else" that simply won't happen.
This is the genre now. Take it or leave it. This incessant whining is not an option.
I'm sorry but I disagree, ArcheAge and Eve have already proven against what you are saying. The genre just needs AAA quality handling of sandbox games now. Nothing is wrong with AA or EVE as games. AA's problem is that its being mishandled on the customer service front. Where as EVE's issue is that its in a genre that is limited by preference.
If SE for example brought out a FF themed sandbox MMORPG it would sell like hotcakes
There's always that "what if" scenario that lives on as long as no one attempts to actually pull it off in practice. This is what feeds the part of the community to ask for the "something else" which, again, won't happen. Then, when someone actually gives it an honest attempt and obviously more or less fails, there is always an excuse to fall back on. "Oh customer service is the problem, oh it is only limited by preference, oh the art style was bad, oh there was too little content... If only they did X and Y and didn't do Z."
You can disagree with me. Yet this hotcake is still nowhere to be seen. Even with your proof... of games that either failed or didn't exactly sell like hotcakes. This debate is still completely theoretical, the practice only works in the minds of the people. Just as the saying goes, "an unreleased MMO is the best MMO."
You'll be much happier by accepting that this is what the genre is about and making the choice to either leave the genre or embrace it for what it is.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
online games designed to solo and ignore the online reason is just dumb.
I was there at one time like every newish game,it didn't matter,i bought many games ,felt i was enjoying myself but really only a few games kept my interest.
It is sort of like a friend,you don't move from friend to friend,you enjoy a friend for life "hopefully".So why are so many so quick to lay claims the yare enjoying these games,then move on to the next IN GAME as soon as it comes out?
So many just so bored and want in on the IN THING or the in game,they just keep following this pattern from game,never totally enjoying themselves.
Bottom line is that games are made like they are off an assembly line process.Devs entire focus is on making money.They think of an idea then start working on ideas to make it cheaper to design,it is NEVER about passion of game design.Nobody runs a business out of charity,the sole reason is always to make a living,money.
I used to love playing those games that claimed your cash shop purchases were a "donation" ya right ,whatever.
With such high expectations now there is no way a developer can meet those going for budgets and greedily after money.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
People call me crazy but I enjoyed the direction the original XIV released with, even if it was horribly broken. It wasn't the model itself but the broken mechanics and overall unfinished product.
People have liked crappy things while hating the good things since the beginning of mankind. It doesn't make you crazy at all.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
The reason why so many players don't get any satisfaction from these types of games is that we already done them. If gaming is a puzzle then ff14 is a puzzle you probably already solved 15 times while playing wow and once you start playing ff14 you notice all the pieces and where to fit them, and that's just not fun. Some people can still find satisfaction from that sort of activity, but others needs something different/harder.
It has nothing to do with burnout, which involves something completely different.
That applies to any matured genre. FPS, racing, RTS, MOBA, fighting games. All games are simply derivations of the genre staples. Yet only in the MMO genre is part of the community constantly asking for "something else" that simply won't happen.
This is the genre now. Take it or leave it. This incessant whining is not an option.
I'm sorry but I disagree, ArcheAge and Eve have already proven against what you are saying. The genre just needs AAA quality handling of sandbox games now. Nothing is wrong with AA or EVE as games. AA's problem is that its being mishandled on the customer service front. Where as EVE's issue is that its in a genre that is limited by preference.
If SE for example brought out a FF themed sandbox MMORPG it would sell like hotcakes
There's always that "what if" scenario that lives on as long as no one attempts to actually pull it off in practice. This is what feeds the part of the community to ask for the "something else" which, again, won't happen. Then, when someone actually gives it an honest attempt and obviously more or less fails, there is always an excuse to fall back on. "Oh customer service is the problem, oh it is only limited by preference, oh the art style was bad, oh there was too little content... If only they did X and Y and didn't do Z."
You can disagree with me. Yet this hotcake is still nowhere to be seen. Even with your proof... of games that either failed or didn't exactly sell like hotcakes. This debate is still completely theoretical, the practice only works in the minds of the people. Just as the saying goes, "an unreleased MMO is the best MMO."
You'll be much happier by accepting that this is what the genre is about and making the choice to either leave the genre or embrace it for what it is.
"What? Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!" - Bluto
I was here long before the current causal mass mob showed up in the genre, I'll be here long after you are all gone. (well, unless I die of old age first)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"What? Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!" - Bluto
I was here long before the current causal mass mob showed up in the genre, I'll be here long after you are all gone. (well, unless I die of old age first)
I can't stop you... I can only give an honest advice.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Geez, the games aren't less sociable because of design, they are less sociable because now the less sociable players - those that really would have played single player games - have come into the genre. It is honestly a case of how many players there are. And, if you hate that fact? Tough. No developer of anything would want less people to buy their form of media because, well, you get Wildstar when it was released.
It was a niche genre for a reason.
FFXIV at least forces you to play with others for dungeons, trials and raids.
Also, everyone needs to get over "a succesor to FFXI" thing I keep seeing. There are no two Final Fantasys alike and FFXI model isn't even what's wanted anymore by majority of the players. Stop living in the past, take off the rose glasses, and learn to enjoy what you have instead of going, "It doesn't have this! Worst game ever!", "You can't do that! Worst game ever!", and "People don't talk and I barely try either! Worst game ever!"
And, if you want to critque anything, you need to stop trying to turn into another game. You don't like something? Explain what could be done better and how it wouldn't ruin the core concepts of the game. Just going "PvP sucks" or "FFXI did jobs better" isn't saying anything. Why is current version bad? What makes it dull? What solutions do you have?
The reason why so many players don't get any satisfaction from these types of games is that we already done them. If gaming is a puzzle then ff14 is a puzzle you probably already solved 15 times while playing wow and once you start playing ff14 you notice all the pieces and where to fit them, and that's just not fun. Some people can still find satisfaction from that sort of activity, but others needs something different/harder.
It has nothing to do with burnout, which involves something completely different.
That applies to any matured genre. FPS, racing, RTS, MOBA, fighting games. All games are simply derivations of the genre staples. Yet only in the MMO genre is part of the community constantly asking for "something else" that simply won't happen.
This is the genre now. Take it or leave it. This incessant whining is not an option.
I'm sorry but I disagree, ArcheAge and Eve have already proven against what you are saying. The genre just needs AAA quality handling of sandbox games now. Nothing is wrong with AA or EVE as games. AA's problem is that its being mishandled on the customer service front. Where as EVE's issue is that its in a genre that is limited by preference.
If SE for example brought out a FF themed sandbox MMORPG it would sell like hotcakes
What the industry needs to create right now is the WOW version of the sandbox mmorpg - something accessible but with all the open world goodness of a SWG, AA, EVE and the like. The market is at the point right now where a well made sandbox mmo that's accessible would be welcomed if it had high production values.
Even better? A high end sandpark mmorpg
We don't need anymore themeparks.
This. This. This. This. This.
The reason why there aren't any? Money. A true MMO Sandbox RPG is the hardest video game genre to develop. Why is it only Koreans that make these types of games anymore? Well, our economy is shit and their player base is actually OK with all the bullshit monetisation they implement. So, in order to first create and then maintain such a game, one business must turn it into cash cow heaven. They have LAWS for fatigue systems. They HAVE to put them in. What do you do, as a businessman, when a government forces you to alter your product so that people use it LESS? You monetize said feature and the list of stupid business-related by-products goes on and on until it stacks up to the point where us, Westerners, just don't want to deal with it anymore.
Koreans have such amazing ideas and skills. But it's always the big bad man with the big bad briefcase and a calculator that's looming behind, ready to take a shit on what used/was to be the best game ever.
Either of 2 things needs to happen:
1. Like you said, big dev, big wallet, big balls makes this monster of a game. But there will have to be a way to monetize it, and it will probably be executed poorly.
2. Big publisher, big wallet, big balls buys NA publishing rights to game made elsewhere and retains most of the creative freedom. So, in essence, buying the license and version 1.0. That way, they don't have to apply foreign laws and monetization ways here.
Yeah even in WoW people only tolerated the non stop linear questing because the underlying game was good. This is not the case with FFXIV. The game wouldn't even have 2 subscribers to rub together if it didn't have great graphic's and wasn't named Final Fantasy.
Originally posted by Thebeasttt Yeah even in WoW people only tolerated the non stop linear questing because the underlying game was good. This is not the case with FFXIV. The game wouldn't even have 2 subscribers to rub together if it didn't have great graphic's and wasn't named Final Fantasy.
Why do people keep insisting this when the orignal version of Final Fantasy XIV (known as 1.0) failed so dramatically despite having better graphics than a Realm Reborn and a main numbered Final Fantasy.
That game tanked so hard they had to bring in a whole new team to fix it and then just reboot the whole thing.
So, no, neither graphics nor it's IP got people to stay. Hell, both those things get attention but they don't contain retention.
Its interesting how people will literally dismiss every aspect of an mmo except for its combat then turn around and complain there's nothing new to do.
"MMOs need more variety. It's too linear. Same old gear treadmills."
"Hmm. Well the crafting is awesome. SO is the gathering. The economy is mostly player driven and is quite active. You can race and breed chocobos or play a collectible card game. The fishing is awesome. Theres a crafting faction quest hub. Oh yeah there is personal and guild housing with stables and gardens and instruments all player made. Theres player made chat channels for all activities including dedicated role players. There's treasure hunts, hildebrand storyline, moogle delivery, seasonal events, retainer ventures and much more non combat activities to engage in."
"Nah...Im not interested in any of that stuff."
"So...you want variety, but aren't interested in doing anything other than combat. Do you see a conflict in interest here?"
It's about 4 or something years since I stopped playing WoW. I'm trying FFXIV now after this long break during which I've only tried couple games for few days. I STILL feel nauseous from this sort of game... I just can't take another linear leveling zone where I press two buttons and wait for GCD. Nobody talks much, I'm not trying either, it's hard when everybody is quiet, I'm not exactly social either, in WoW I always used to start 5 mans and socialize and bond with the groups, can't aynmore because attitudes have changed because of change in community and game mechanics that promote unsocial behavior. Pretty spell effects and some silly fantasy stories, can't relate with this stuff. Grind of 50 levels to go into raids where people obsess about performance and gear...
This was good reminder why I stopped... this is not really directed at FFXIV only. And I hate that all I have to say about these games is complain like most everybody else on this site, but I can't help it.
I used to play MMORPG's like crazy, and all kind of "hardcore" games... now I just rather play a card game or tower defense game on smartphone. My past self would not believe it.
u used to play mmorpgs like crazy....i guess u are just burned out , take a break from this genre and come back and u will find yourself having fun again.
NO, MMORPG#s just became shit. Not really massive, not really a world. Just a collection of maps and minigames. Like a map for PvP and siegeing than seperate maps for PvE and dungeons.....horrible...ah yeah and everything has to be soloable. No freedom, no world building. boring
Originally posted by Niburu MMORPG#s just became shit. Not really massive, not really a world. Just a collection of maps and minigames. Like a map for PvP and siegeing than seperate maps for PvE and dungeons.....horrible...ah yeah and everything has to be soloable. No freedom, no world building. boring
Originally posted by Niburu the reason i dont enjoy xsyon is that there is no reason to build all this. also there is no minigames that yo ucan do as a solo player.
It's about 4 or something years since I stopped playing WoW. I'm trying FFXIV now after this long break during which I've only tried couple games for few days. I STILL feel nauseous from this sort of game... I just can't take another linear leveling zone where I press two buttons and wait for GCD. Nobody talks much, I'm not trying either, it's hard when everybody is quiet, I'm not exactly social either, in WoW I always used to start 5 mans and socialize and bond with the groups, can't aynmore because attitudes have changed because of change in community and game mechanics that promote unsocial behavior. Pretty spell effects and some silly fantasy stories, can't relate with this stuff. Grind of 50 levels to go into raids where people obsess about performance and gear...
This was good reminder why I stopped... this is not really directed at FFXIV only. And I hate that all I have to say about these games is complain like most everybody else on this site, but I can't help it.
I used to play MMORPG's like crazy, and all kind of "hardcore" games... now I just rather play a card game or tower defense game on smartphone. My past self would not believe it.
u used to play mmorpgs like crazy....i guess u are just burned out , take a break from this genre and come back and u will find yourself having fun again.
Not true. Ive not played an MMO for 3 years now and every time i've tried to replay or play a new mmo, its lasted at most a day or two. MMO's just suck now, there is literally 0 sense of accomplishment. For the first time since i first set foot into EQ i've actually finished a single player RPG (pillars of eternity). Before that i never cared enough to because i had MMO's.
Sucks for you, there's plenty of MMORPG'S that don't suck for me and plenty of accomplishments I have to get to.
Honestly, im glad for you. If getting some mark in a book that says you collected X number of things, or killed Y number of mobs is what gets your juices flowing, more power to you. Unfortunately for me thats not the case, and every MMO i've tried in the past 5 years has been a bunch of participation trophy BS. I absolutely hate it.
Almost any game is what you just described. You do something and get rewarded for it. Everything from Mario, Donkey Kong, and even Space Invaders. If you can't handle the way mmorpgs give out things to do (quests/missions) and are then rewarded for doing it, you can go to another genre, but it's pretty much the same thing, just dressed different.
You are heavily diluting the argument. That the same thing as trying to say that being rewarded for running 3 miles and feeling good afterwards is the same level of reward/satisfaction you would get after having completed a marathon.
They're two completely different feelings. While both are "good" because they are rewards. Small rewards devalue accomplishment.
Of course I diluted it, it was meant to be simple. Even simpler, don't play mmorpgs if you don't like the reward. /shrug
I'm not sure why you listed all those titles in your profile and claim them as BS. Doesn't make sense how someone can play a game, call it crap, and then list it as some type of an accomplishment in a profile. By your analogy you are running 3 miles and collecting the reward of a marathon.
Explain to me how listing them in my profile means its an "accomplishment".
The website lets you say what you HAVE PLAYED, ARE PLAYING, and WANT TO PLAY. Thats it.
Some of those games i played for 10 or 20 hours and quit because they were terrible. Others i played extensively. I personally dont give a rats ass what people think of my gaming habits. Notice how i dont have a list of all my MMO characters and their levels and shit in my signature like a bunch of people on this site. Why, cus i DONT GIVE A SHIT.
But nice job setting up a straw man and trying to divert attention from the fact that you just failed at supporting your argument.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
It's about 4 or something years since I stopped playing WoW. I'm trying FFXIV now after this long break during which I've only tried couple games for few days. I STILL feel nauseous from this sort of game... I just can't take another linear leveling zone where I press two buttons and wait for GCD. Nobody talks much, I'm not trying either, it's hard when everybody is quiet, I'm not exactly social either, in WoW I always used to start 5 mans and socialize and bond with the groups, can't aynmore because attitudes have changed because of change in community and game mechanics that promote unsocial behavior. Pretty spell effects and some silly fantasy stories, can't relate with this stuff. Grind of 50 levels to go into raids where people obsess about performance and gear...
This was good reminder why I stopped... this is not really directed at FFXIV only. And I hate that all I have to say about these games is complain like most everybody else on this site, but I can't help it.
I used to play MMORPG's like crazy, and all kind of "hardcore" games... now I just rather play a card game or tower defense game on smartphone. My past self would not believe it.
u used to play mmorpgs like crazy....i guess u are just burned out , take a break from this genre and come back and u will find yourself having fun again.
Not true. Ive not played an MMO for 3 years now and every time i've tried to replay or play a new mmo, its lasted at most a day or two. MMO's just suck now, there is literally 0 sense of accomplishment. For the first time since i first set foot into EQ i've actually finished a single player RPG (pillars of eternity). Before that i never cared enough to because i had MMO's.
Sucks for you, there's plenty of MMORPG'S that don't suck for me and plenty of accomplishments I have to get to.
Honestly, im glad for you. If getting some mark in a book that says you collected X number of things, or killed Y number of mobs is what gets your juices flowing, more power to you. Unfortunately for me thats not the case, and every MMO i've tried in the past 5 years has been a bunch of participation trophy BS. I absolutely hate it.
Almost any game is what you just described. You do something and get rewarded for it. Everything from Mario, Donkey Kong, and even Space Invaders. If you can't handle the way mmorpgs give out things to do (quests/missions) and are then rewarded for doing it, you can go to another genre, but it's pretty much the same thing, just dressed different.
You are heavily diluting the argument. That the same thing as trying to say that being rewarded for running 3 miles and feeling good afterwards is the same level of reward/satisfaction you would get after having completed a marathon.
They're two completely different feelings. While both are "good" because they are rewards. Small rewards devalue accomplishment.
Of course I diluted it, it was meant to be simple. Even simpler, don't play mmorpgs if you don't like the reward. /shrug
I'm not sure why you listed all those titles in your profile and claim them as BS. Doesn't make sense how someone can play a game, call it crap, and then list it as some type of an accomplishment in a profile. By your analogy you are running 3 miles and collecting the reward of a marathon.
Explain to me how listing them in my profile means its an "accomplishment".
The website lets you say what you HAVE PLAYED, ARE PLAYING, and WANT TO PLAY. Thats it.
Some of those games i played for 10 or 20 hours and quit because they were terrible. Others i played extensively. I personally dont give a rats ass what people think of my gaming habits. Notice how i dont have a list of all my MMO characters and their levels and shit in my signature like a bunch of people on this site. Why, cus i DONT GIVE A SHIT.
But nice job setting up a straw man and trying to divert attention from the fact that you just failed at supporting your argument.
What exactly would give you that sense of an "accomplishment"? You people that played MMOs for years always say this BS but fail to explain the logistics of it all. You are all just "things suck now because the old versions did it better!" Yet you fail to explain the how and the why.
And, in your particular case, why is a title reward for accomplishing simple feats meant for newbs like myself, but better titles and rewards for accomplishing the harder feats a bad thing? You get a title for accomplishing a threshold and the rewards get better as you move up the ladder. Why is this bad? What makes this less of an "accomplishment"? People that beat Titan Extreme - especially in his prime - sure as hell talk with a sense of satisifaction and pride, and there sure is hell pride in beating The Coil of Bahamut. What makes them less of an accomplishment?
And. before I see the "They just don't know better", there are people that have played MMOs just as long as you that are part of the proud group, so obviously they know the "good ol' days" as well. So, keep that part of the arguement out of it as well because that's just plain not true.
MMORPGs have changed over the years. Not every single point for the absolute best. As a professor once taught me "Introduce your biases first, as an act of kindness" and so my bias is from the point of a view of a player who likes supporting games.
What this means is that I like entering MMORPGs and then supporting the game by actually paying the developer/company in order to play. I like showing support for the games I play and there is no better way than actually paying them for the countless hours played. The problem is that it results in a very different view of the F2P, P2P, and B2P models out there. Once again, this is a bias from a person who likes paying to support a game over the long term...actually subbing in almost every game I play, even if its F2P.
The P2P model means that every player pays evenly and equally for the game. This method allows a dedicated team that actually cares about the game (as every model has at least one team that only cares about the money and nothing about the game we can think on the top of our heads), to actually develop a game focused on the actual game and its content without having to make the content in a way that will have players run to cash shops in order to get access to content. Granted that there are expansions to pay for, but from my point of view and commitment....this has been the cheapest option for me actually. I can play and know that my menu, interface, options, content, and encounters aren't deliberately tied towards getting me to spend in a cash shop.
The F2P model means that while many more players exist, a game is programmed in a way that has the developers actually make the content around the cash shop and generating money. These games usually have a subscription model that is optional and allows more rapid character advancement. Someone like me likes to devote several months at a time in a particular MMORPG to focus, while having other games on the side. This also creates the problem that In supporting the game there is a second price tag. The second price tag associated with having to deal with content that sends me to the cash shop in one way or another.
A few examples of these are when F2P games give very low limited inventory space and then liter your inventory with a lot of junk items that are actually exchange items to clog up inventory and storage spaces. The result is having to spend time unlocking item space and probably buy more storage and inventory space. Then comes the fact that events and costumes for your characters in this model go through the cash shops as well. The result has always been in some way being reminded that if I want decent progression along with decent character looks and full enjoyment of the game I have to pay the cash or put in excess amount of time in order to attain things.
Case and point is that on F2P games, I've spent more money always than on P2P games and usually find that on P2P games that I play (before they go F2P) that the content is focused on the game itself and not always trying to use the content to extort money from people. Once again, this is from a player who actually wants to Support the game I am playing if I like it.
The B2P model is one where while one actually spends to buy the game, one still pays for expansions. In this model the players are made to buy the expansions to be able to continue actually playing the game with their friends or not be locked out of areas. The result is everyone is more dependent on buying expansions. The first Guild Wars did that in which one needed to buy expansions to have access to the PvP set of skills of the expansion and play with friends in the content areas. The same will happen in Guild Wars 2 and then there is The Secret World where every issue has a sale value as well as costumes in the cash shop.
What I've noticed about the B2P model itself is that its nice to have it available, but at the end of the day its easy to breeze through the content playing for long hours. The result is usually that we get a large game that has a short-term lifespan. Like Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 took me a short time to actually get 100% world completion and I stayed behind more for the PvP and WvW. Point is that I was already done with the exploration of the game and it became waiting for content in the first two weeks of playing. Like I find that the B2P model outside of events in the world has no long-term longevity since people play, explore, and then log off and return to their favorite games. It doesn't mean that the games suck, in turn I loved them, but it just doesn't keep me interested.
So I guess the biggest change in MMORPGs is that the genre went from a pure content-based P2P model into an F2P micro-transaction model which hurts those who actually do care about paying monthly for a game and supporting a game directly.....where now the content of the game and events are aimed around getting the player base to spend money in cash shops. Developers know many will play the game for free and try to get them to spend money by catering to them, but all the same they know those who have subscriptions have money to burn and go after those who have subscriptions to actually spend more money on side things that if one played a P2P game would have those side things actually taken care of.
Don't get me wrong, I like that there are experiments in the Genre, but as a person who likes to actually support the games I am playing; I find it amazing how many will not spend a dime on a MMO and blast me for actually spending money thinking I am in the P2W crowd, when the very same players who miraculously cannot afford an MMORPG, can afford their endless stream of console games and upgrading their smart phones every six months or getting some artist to paint a character portrait for their sigs in online forums and messenger avatars.
While I don't like a pure grinding game, I've been focused on finding a game that I don't burn through everything In a week or so, and can actually really have many options. Not so much as progression as actually being party oriented, supporting others and actually being able to play for a year and see that I still have more to do. I guess I want a game where the immersion is there and there is more to the world than just fighting monsters, raiding, and some crafting system as an excuse to say "oh we have something optional in the world that is a grind but will yield nothing unless you can reach a specific set of players." I can see through the smoke screens after playing so many games...and I am sure there are many people here who can see through the smoke screens as well.
Comments
It's not the games.
It's you.
You are actually the audience all of the features you are lambasting are aimed at.
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Your concern over your labor pool is actually overriding the desire to level faster.
In AA is isn't even debatable that expending your LP on certain activities yields crazy amounts of XP.
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
Undeleted the account to respond because there's insigthful comments and not just defending of ffxiv or the themepark MMORPG model.
Tell me how WoW and others have not started to incorporate many mechanics that allow people very conveniently not to socialize. If people are given the choice, people likely will not socialize much, apparently.
My ideal MMORPG would not have auction house (without clear penalty), too much fast travel or dungeon finder. All these feature suck and will suck forever for the type games mmorpgs are, in my personal opinion and taste.
Guess what I don't expect just somebody else to socialize, -I- made hundreds, possibly thousands 5 man groups in WoW. -I- tried to start up conversation most times until I also became sore of all the crap, made bunch of friends, randomly found leveling partners, world PvP, was guild leader at the end, tried RP and everything. But there was clear dying of social atmosphere at a point. A lot thanks to change in gamers, our attitudes, but tied and maybe ultimately started by with what kind of mechanics were developed into the game and with what sort of mentality the game was developed. FFXIV is the same ideas, just with bit japanese flavor, cuteness and stuff.
I want to socialize randomly with random people that I can meet again (randomly). Guilds and cross server dungeons don't go well with this. I don't Care how it should be possible to become friends on cross server dungeon but to me it was very clear that in practise I used to find a bunch of friends befor the feature, after it many DIDN'T EVEN BOTHER TO SAY HELLO, this is most bothering thing. People cooperating virtually next to each other but don't even say hello.
But it's completely true, I have seen too much of the puzzle, Ive solved the puzzle. Or whatever you want to see it as, there's a problem in me as well. Or yeah, rather I've outgrown the genre.
Games mentioned: darkfall, Eve, hearthstone, I've played all of these. Hearthstone I actually play on the phone every few days. Darkfall development I followed since when it was still going to be vaporware in most people's opinion. Eve is still brilliant idea in my mind, but to actually play it... This has been discussec enough as well, some people get along with and are dedicated enough to really get into it, it's very social game but requires too much to get there and remain there. And just feels too hostile to me, it's exactly this feeling of hostility that bothers me.
I don't know how playing card game or Tower defense on my phone in any way makes what I'm saying irrelevant or silly or whatever... I don't play them for MMORPG features because they aren't such. Logic fell past me on this one. My phone happens to be only hardware i have that plays current stuff well. I was sceptic on the whole smartphone thing... well some games work well with the touch screen and now there's enough processing power.
I'm sorry but I disagree, ArcheAge and Eve have already proven against what you are saying. The genre just needs AAA quality handling of sandbox games now. Nothing is wrong with AA or EVE as games. AA's problem is that its being mishandled on the customer service front. Where as EVE's issue is that its in a genre that is limited by preference.
If SE for example brought out a FF themed sandbox MMORPG it would sell like hotcakes
What the industry needs to create right now is the WOW version of the sandbox mmorpg - something accessible but with all the open world goodness of a SWG, AA, EVE and the like. The market is at the point right now where a well made sandbox mmo that's accessible would be welcomed if it had high production values.
Even better? A high end sandpark mmorpg
We don't need anymore themeparks.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Subscribers who have 5 characters on 1 server, each chugging LP potions they bought off the Cash Shop. That's what he means. Games like AA are great, if you are wealthy and bored, but so few of us are both.
Joined - July 2004
There's always that "what if" scenario that lives on as long as no one attempts to actually pull it off in practice. This is what feeds the part of the community to ask for the "something else" which, again, won't happen. Then, when someone actually gives it an honest attempt and obviously more or less fails, there is always an excuse to fall back on. "Oh customer service is the problem, oh it is only limited by preference, oh the art style was bad, oh there was too little content... If only they did X and Y and didn't do Z."
You can disagree with me. Yet this hotcake is still nowhere to be seen. Even with your proof... of games that either failed or didn't exactly sell like hotcakes. This debate is still completely theoretical, the practice only works in the minds of the people. Just as the saying goes, "an unreleased MMO is the best MMO."
You'll be much happier by accepting that this is what the genre is about and making the choice to either leave the genre or embrace it for what it is.
I hear ya OP,i am in the same boat.
online games designed to solo and ignore the online reason is just dumb.
I was there at one time like every newish game,it didn't matter,i bought many games ,felt i was enjoying myself but really only a few games kept my interest.
It is sort of like a friend,you don't move from friend to friend,you enjoy a friend for life "hopefully".So why are so many so quick to lay claims the yare enjoying these games,then move on to the next IN GAME as soon as it comes out?
So many just so bored and want in on the IN THING or the in game,they just keep following this pattern from game,never totally enjoying themselves.
Bottom line is that games are made like they are off an assembly line process.Devs entire focus is on making money.They think of an idea then start working on ideas to make it cheaper to design,it is NEVER about passion of game design.Nobody runs a business out of charity,the sole reason is always to make a living,money.
I used to love playing those games that claimed your cash shop purchases were a "donation" ya right ,whatever.
With such high expectations now there is no way a developer can meet those going for budgets and greedily after money.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
People have liked crappy things while hating the good things since the beginning of mankind. It doesn't make you crazy at all.
"What? Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!" - Bluto
I was here long before the current causal mass mob showed up in the genre, I'll be here long after you are all gone. (well, unless I die of old age first)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I can't stop you... I can only give an honest advice.
Geez, the games aren't less sociable because of design, they are less sociable because now the less sociable players - those that really would have played single player games - have come into the genre. It is honestly a case of how many players there are. And, if you hate that fact? Tough. No developer of anything would want less people to buy their form of media because, well, you get Wildstar when it was released.
It was a niche genre for a reason.
FFXIV at least forces you to play with others for dungeons, trials and raids.
Also, everyone needs to get over "a succesor to FFXI" thing I keep seeing. There are no two Final Fantasys alike and FFXI model isn't even what's wanted anymore by majority of the players. Stop living in the past, take off the rose glasses, and learn to enjoy what you have instead of going, "It doesn't have this! Worst game ever!", "You can't do that! Worst game ever!", and "People don't talk and I barely try either! Worst game ever!"
And, if you want to critque anything, you need to stop trying to turn into another game. You don't like something? Explain what could be done better and how it wouldn't ruin the core concepts of the game. Just going "PvP sucks" or "FFXI did jobs better" isn't saying anything. Why is current version bad? What makes it dull? What solutions do you have?
This. This. This. This. This.
The reason why there aren't any? Money. A true MMO Sandbox RPG is the hardest video game genre to develop. Why is it only Koreans that make these types of games anymore? Well, our economy is shit and their player base is actually OK with all the bullshit monetisation they implement. So, in order to first create and then maintain such a game, one business must turn it into cash cow heaven. They have LAWS for fatigue systems. They HAVE to put them in. What do you do, as a businessman, when a government forces you to alter your product so that people use it LESS? You monetize said feature and the list of stupid business-related by-products goes on and on until it stacks up to the point where us, Westerners, just don't want to deal with it anymore.
Koreans have such amazing ideas and skills. But it's always the big bad man with the big bad briefcase and a calculator that's looming behind, ready to take a shit on what used/was to be the best game ever.
Either of 2 things needs to happen:
1. Like you said, big dev, big wallet, big balls makes this monster of a game. But there will have to be a way to monetize it, and it will probably be executed poorly.
2. Big publisher, big wallet, big balls buys NA publishing rights to game made elsewhere and retains most of the creative freedom. So, in essence, buying the license and version 1.0. That way, they don't have to apply foreign laws and monetization ways here.
Will it ever happen? Don't keep your hopes up.
Why do people keep insisting this when the orignal version of Final Fantasy XIV (known as 1.0) failed so dramatically despite having better graphics than a Realm Reborn and a main numbered Final Fantasy.
That game tanked so hard they had to bring in a whole new team to fix it and then just reboot the whole thing.
So, no, neither graphics nor it's IP got people to stay. Hell, both those things get attention but they don't contain retention.
Its interesting how people will literally dismiss every aspect of an mmo except for its combat then turn around and complain there's nothing new to do.
"MMOs need more variety. It's too linear. Same old gear treadmills."
"Hmm. Well the crafting is awesome. SO is the gathering. The economy is mostly player driven and is quite active. You can race and breed chocobos or play a collectible card game. The fishing is awesome. Theres a crafting faction quest hub. Oh yeah there is personal and guild housing with stables and gardens and instruments all player made. Theres player made chat channels for all activities including dedicated role players. There's treasure hunts, hildebrand storyline, moogle delivery, seasonal events, retainer ventures and much more non combat activities to engage in."
"Nah...Im not interested in any of that stuff."
"So...you want variety, but aren't interested in doing anything other than combat. Do you see a conflict in interest here?"
"No. Its the genre's fault."
NO, MMORPG#s just became shit. Not really massive, not really a world. Just a collection of maps and minigames. Like a map for PvP and siegeing than seperate maps for PvE and dungeons.....horrible...ah yeah and everything has to be soloable. No freedom, no world building. boring
case in point
Explain to me how listing them in my profile means its an "accomplishment".
The website lets you say what you HAVE PLAYED, ARE PLAYING, and WANT TO PLAY. Thats it.
Some of those games i played for 10 or 20 hours and quit because they were terrible. Others i played extensively. I personally dont give a rats ass what people think of my gaming habits. Notice how i dont have a list of all my MMO characters and their levels and shit in my signature like a bunch of people on this site. Why, cus i DONT GIVE A SHIT.
But nice job setting up a straw man and trying to divert attention from the fact that you just failed at supporting your argument.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
What exactly would give you that sense of an "accomplishment"? You people that played MMOs for years always say this BS but fail to explain the logistics of it all. You are all just "things suck now because the old versions did it better!" Yet you fail to explain the how and the why.
And, in your particular case, why is a title reward for accomplishing simple feats meant for newbs like myself, but better titles and rewards for accomplishing the harder feats a bad thing? You get a title for accomplishing a threshold and the rewards get better as you move up the ladder. Why is this bad? What makes this less of an "accomplishment"? People that beat Titan Extreme - especially in his prime - sure as hell talk with a sense of satisifaction and pride, and there sure is hell pride in beating The Coil of Bahamut. What makes them less of an accomplishment?
And. before I see the "They just don't know better", there are people that have played MMOs just as long as you that are part of the proud group, so obviously they know the "good ol' days" as well. So, keep that part of the arguement out of it as well because that's just plain not true.
MMORPGs have changed over the years. Not every single point for the absolute best. As a professor once taught me "Introduce your biases first, as an act of kindness" and so my bias is from the point of a view of a player who likes supporting games.
What this means is that I like entering MMORPGs and then supporting the game by actually paying the developer/company in order to play. I like showing support for the games I play and there is no better way than actually paying them for the countless hours played. The problem is that it results in a very different view of the F2P, P2P, and B2P models out there. Once again, this is a bias from a person who likes paying to support a game over the long term...actually subbing in almost every game I play, even if its F2P.
The P2P model means that every player pays evenly and equally for the game. This method allows a dedicated team that actually cares about the game (as every model has at least one team that only cares about the money and nothing about the game we can think on the top of our heads), to actually develop a game focused on the actual game and its content without having to make the content in a way that will have players run to cash shops in order to get access to content. Granted that there are expansions to pay for, but from my point of view and commitment....this has been the cheapest option for me actually. I can play and know that my menu, interface, options, content, and encounters aren't deliberately tied towards getting me to spend in a cash shop.
The F2P model means that while many more players exist, a game is programmed in a way that has the developers actually make the content around the cash shop and generating money. These games usually have a subscription model that is optional and allows more rapid character advancement. Someone like me likes to devote several months at a time in a particular MMORPG to focus, while having other games on the side. This also creates the problem that In supporting the game there is a second price tag. The second price tag associated with having to deal with content that sends me to the cash shop in one way or another.
A few examples of these are when F2P games give very low limited inventory space and then liter your inventory with a lot of junk items that are actually exchange items to clog up inventory and storage spaces. The result is having to spend time unlocking item space and probably buy more storage and inventory space. Then comes the fact that events and costumes for your characters in this model go through the cash shops as well. The result has always been in some way being reminded that if I want decent progression along with decent character looks and full enjoyment of the game I have to pay the cash or put in excess amount of time in order to attain things.
Case and point is that on F2P games, I've spent more money always than on P2P games and usually find that on P2P games that I play (before they go F2P) that the content is focused on the game itself and not always trying to use the content to extort money from people. Once again, this is from a player who actually wants to Support the game I am playing if I like it.
The B2P model is one where while one actually spends to buy the game, one still pays for expansions. In this model the players are made to buy the expansions to be able to continue actually playing the game with their friends or not be locked out of areas. The result is everyone is more dependent on buying expansions. The first Guild Wars did that in which one needed to buy expansions to have access to the PvP set of skills of the expansion and play with friends in the content areas. The same will happen in Guild Wars 2 and then there is The Secret World where every issue has a sale value as well as costumes in the cash shop.
What I've noticed about the B2P model itself is that its nice to have it available, but at the end of the day its easy to breeze through the content playing for long hours. The result is usually that we get a large game that has a short-term lifespan. Like Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 took me a short time to actually get 100% world completion and I stayed behind more for the PvP and WvW. Point is that I was already done with the exploration of the game and it became waiting for content in the first two weeks of playing. Like I find that the B2P model outside of events in the world has no long-term longevity since people play, explore, and then log off and return to their favorite games. It doesn't mean that the games suck, in turn I loved them, but it just doesn't keep me interested.
So I guess the biggest change in MMORPGs is that the genre went from a pure content-based P2P model into an F2P micro-transaction model which hurts those who actually do care about paying monthly for a game and supporting a game directly.....where now the content of the game and events are aimed around getting the player base to spend money in cash shops. Developers know many will play the game for free and try to get them to spend money by catering to them, but all the same they know those who have subscriptions have money to burn and go after those who have subscriptions to actually spend more money on side things that if one played a P2P game would have those side things actually taken care of.
Don't get me wrong, I like that there are experiments in the Genre, but as a person who likes to actually support the games I am playing; I find it amazing how many will not spend a dime on a MMO and blast me for actually spending money thinking I am in the P2W crowd, when the very same players who miraculously cannot afford an MMORPG, can afford their endless stream of console games and upgrading their smart phones every six months or getting some artist to paint a character portrait for their sigs in online forums and messenger avatars.
While I don't like a pure grinding game, I've been focused on finding a game that I don't burn through everything In a week or so, and can actually really have many options. Not so much as progression as actually being party oriented, supporting others and actually being able to play for a year and see that I still have more to do. I guess I want a game where the immersion is there and there is more to the world than just fighting monsters, raiding, and some crafting system as an excuse to say "oh we have something optional in the world that is a grind but will yield nothing unless you can reach a specific set of players." I can see through the smoke screens after playing so many games...and I am sure there are many people here who can see through the smoke screens as well.