How to sell your wares?

Niien

So we started going off topic as Nightbringe1 mentioned in one of his posts. So here are with a simple yet very complicated question. How should the seller of wares happen in Pantheon?

I personally like the fact that not having an auction house makes you take time away from the leveling in the game. Leveling shouldn't be the only means of "playing the game". Taking a break to sell your hard earned spoils of adventure should be part of "playing the game".

If a player choose not to spend the time to sell their wares, then they won't be making any money selling things they pick up along their journey. If they find their time is more enjoyable adventuring then so be it. I'm okay with them not selling their items to make a profit.

However I know few really want an auction house type of system put in place. For me if you add an auction house you might as well add in mail boxes... then ! points and quest hubs lol... No not really... Just seems like that's where this would be going. I guess the bigger question is... where do we draw the line?

 

Though for this thread, the simple yet complex question is; what would you like to see; Player driven or dev driven auction houses?

Xxerox

What i hate any shop is that players try to sell useless items that no one will buy....

 

But if i had to chose : Player Driven House. Players seting their own prices. Players screaming their wares in the trade chat.  People actually arguing for how much to sell something.

 

The entire point of selling items is to be : Quest items, Unique items, Usefull items. I dont see anyone buying anything else.

Uziduke

Pre Moon xpac of EQ1, people on my server would hang out in the east common land tunnels and sell, it was great fun. It was also nice having all those max level people hanging out to get buffs from, and the always fun training griffons to the tunnel.

Kilrain

"3 bags, second torch!" - that's my vote.

Nightbringe1

I have always viewed buying/selling as character maintenance. A necessary thing, but not a sub-game I enjoy playing.

 

That said, I strongly dislike both spamming in /auction and the WoW style auction houses, with minimum bids and short durations. I feel /auction is way too spammy, with dozens of people spamming their sale macros over all auction channels every few seconds. Auction houses, on the other hand, tend to require character to constantly repost items. I've even had Items I posted for auction deleted when I forget to close everything out a day or two before going on vacation.

 

The two systems I have enjoyed the most are the brokers systems in City of Heroes and Everquest 2. These two systems, while very different, allowed the player to invest as much or as little time as desired into the marketplace. Each had strengths and weaknesses.

• City of Heroes used a blind bid system. Characters could post buy/sell orders with a set bid. When posting a buy order, goods would be purchased from the seller with the lowest price; if you were selling for $10 and I bid $50, you got $50 minus the commission. If I bid lower than the current lowest seller, the bid would remain in place until a seller posted a price equal or less than my bid. All bids and minimums were hidden, but information was tracked on the last ~10 sales. Buy/Sell orders would remain in place indefinitely, and those with patience could eventually find a good deal.

 

• Everquest 2 uses a fixed price market. You check current prices, post your goods and walk away. Goods remain posted at the set price until you take them down, reprice them, or sell them.

 

In both cases, those who enjoy tracking market trends and maintaining spreadsheets enjoy all the same advantages people selling in /auction or playing the auction house do. They will become obscenely wealthy. The difference comes with people like me, who don't enjoy spending their 3-4 hours of game time dealing with spam in /auction. Buying selling is just something you spend 5 minutes on at the beginning/end of the evening before you join your group/raid/whatever. It does not take time away from session you had planned to spend with your friends, "Sorry man, can't group right now, I need to sell that stuff I picked up last night."

 

I'm not advocating getting rid of /auction. It has its place in game. I just don't want it as the primary means of conducting business.

Tamanous

I an enjoy the story behind what is possibly the very reason why the AH was created in mmos (or heavily influenced it's proliferation). It encapsulates the very beginning of the progression of taking away from players what they once controlled in mmorpgs.

 

 EQ originally was like Asheron's Call and had no central AH in game when launched. Out of necessity both games then had players who crafted or wanted to sell looted items directly to other players start organizing events in game and specific places became known to all players as trade districts. In EQ the specific story was that a certain guild started a weekend auctions that very quickly started being duplicated across servers by many others. Same thing occurred in AC.

 

This was 100% player driven content above and beyond what developers had to spend time and money on ... the VERY thing most developers are so desperately trying to recreated in mmos. Then EQ added auction houses and completely obliterated this community event that became very popular. Instead of building upon to both add more tools and solutions to existing shortcomings it they instead dismantled it. The irony is devastating when looking back compared to what we see today in most games. 

 

EQ had likely one of the most possitive, unplanned side affects of their game design to ever develop within an mmo, the very start of player driven and sandbox like content that gave players something to do, drove interaction and cooperation, built entire guilds based upon the need ... and proceeded to strip all of it from their game.

 

I laugh and cry all at the same time every time I remember it.

 

I have no idea how Pathfinder will handle selling of goods both created and looted but I hope their decisions reflect the lessons that should have been learned from the past.

Alders

FFXI had both a fantastic auction house and well as individual player shops outside towns. That system had the convenience of just throwing an item on the AH but doing so came with a steep tax fee. A large portion of players decided to go the personal shop route to save on taxes as well as have a more intimate one on one price haggling system. Just wandering the player shops was a game in itself that i really enjoyed.

Having both works well if the system in place allows for both to succeed.

Kayyd

If completing quests is the whole game and item acquisition is only incidental then by all means go with an auction house. Many players have come to see getting items as something that gets in the way of leveling. If acquiring items is intended to be meaningful then you can't have an auction house, you need something considerably less efficient. I personally liked UO's system of player run vendors spread out all over.

In a nutshell, modern MMORPGs have turned anything that slows down leveling into an evil to be bypassed. Nothing is meaningful because for a thing to be meaningful it requires an investment of the players time. So modern MMORPGs seek to deliberately make sure nothing is meaningful by allowing you to bypass anything that might slow you down. Auction houses are a prime example of this, they make acquisition of items and gold trivial and thus, ultimately meaningless.

It is not just that they are meaningless, the elimination of item acquisition as a dimension to the game results in games that are one-dimensional.

I think good items should be hard to find. That means you should not be able to look in a single place and know whether anything decent is up for trade, or to determine the worth of what you have. I don't know that I would go as far as forcing people to /auction, but I know whatever mechanism exist it shouldn't be possible to know everything that is for sale, and to even learn what subset of items may be available should require visiting many locations, thus I tend to prefer player vendors spread out over many locations.

 

Niien

Originally posted by Nightbringe1

I have always viewed buying/selling as character maintenance. A necessary thing, but not a sub-game I enjoy playing.

 

That said, I strongly dislike both spamming in /auction and the WoW style auction houses, with minimum bids and short durations. I feel /auction is way too spammy, with dozens of people spamming their sale macros over all auction channels every few seconds. Auction houses, on the other hand, tend to require character to constantly repost items. I've even had Items I posted for auction deleted when I forget to close everything out a day or two before going on vacation.

 

The two systems I have enjoyed the most are the brokers systems in City of Heroes and Everquest 2. These two systems, while very different, allowed the player to invest as much or as little time as desired into the marketplace. Each had strengths and weaknesses.

• City of Heroes used a blind bid system. Characters could post buy/sell orders with a set bid. When posting a buy order, goods would be purchased from the seller with the lowest price; if you were selling for $10 and I bid $50, you got $50 minus the commission. If I bid lower than the current lowest seller, the bid would remain in place until a seller posted a price equal or less than my bid. All bids and minimums were hidden, but information was tracked on the last ~10 sales. Buy/Sell orders would remain in place indefinitely, and those with patience could eventually find a good deal.

 

• Everquest 2 uses a fixed price market. You check current prices, post your goods and walk away. Goods remain posted at the set price until you take them down, reprice them, or sell them.

 

In both cases, those who enjoy tracking market trends and maintaining spreadsheets enjoy all the same advantages people selling in /auction or playing the auction house do. They will become obscenely wealthy. The difference comes with people like me, who don't enjoy spending their 3-4 hours of game time dealing with spam in /auction. Buying selling is just something you spend 5 minutes on at the beginning/end of the evening before you join your group/raid/whatever. It does not take time away from session you had planned to spend with your friends, "Sorry man, can't group right now, I need to sell that stuff I picked up last night."

 

I'm not advocating getting rid of /auction. It has its place in game. I just don't want it as the primary means of conducting business.

Night, my opinion on this is similar to my opinion on the slower leveling. If someone doesn't have the time or doesn't want to make the time, then they shouldn't be able to reap the rewards of the people that do.

So my question to you friend would be, do you like auction houses because they are beneficial to this type of game or out of convenience?

I hope this doesn't sound rude or mean. I give you my word that it's just an honest question. I honestly feel that having no auction house would help recapture and keep the original community interaction much more than having one. That's why I picked it, not because it would allow me to more easily sell/gain wealth.

Nightbringe1

Originally posted by Tamanous

This was 100% player driven content above and beyond what developers had to spend time and money on ... the VERY thing most developers are so desperately trying to recreated in mmos. Then EQ added auction houses and completely obliterated this community event that became very popular. Instead of building upon to both add more tools and solutions to existing shortcomings it they instead dismantled it. The irony is devastating when looking back compared to what we see today in most games. 

 

EQ had likely one of the most possitive, unplanned side affects of their game design to ever develop within an mmo, the very start of player driven and sandbox like content that gave players something to do, drove interaction and cooperation, built entire guilds based upon the need ... and proceeded to strip all of it from their game.

I agree that the Tunnel in EQ was a very special place, with a very special community. Unfortunately, the nature of /auction and the people inhabiting /auction has changed greatly since then. In games I've played the past few years, /auction has become a shark infested cesspool. A small number of players living in this toxic environment 24/7 quickly come to dominate it, with most sales skewed heavily towards the high end. They will never set a price, demanding the player make an offer, and heaven's forbid you bid low: /ignored. At the same time, these players are lowballing everyone not willing to live in /auction.

The rate messages flash by in /auction is nearly a blur. Forget reading anything without scrolling back up. The people playing the market game hardcore will be flooding all channels with macro's spamming their wares every few seconds. There is nothing friendly in the /auction channels in todays games. Nothing social. That went away as soon as RMT entered the market. These people are here to win at any cost, and playing the market is a far more efficient means of generating revenue than farming.

In the meantime, a new player seeking low end starter gear is out of luck. It's not worth anyone's hassle dealing with the cesspool to sell low end or newbie gear. It's go big or go home. I prefer to avoid this. Broker systems allow all players to participate in the system, with even the low level newbie able to buy/sell to other low level players without dealing with /auction. The transactions the more casual player is interested in are of little interest to the sharks. Not enough profit.

Krimzin

One of the best things that EQ did was not have an auction house. EC Tunnels and then later the Bazaar was how it should be.

Auction houses take the people out of the game.

In Everquest, you knew who the best players were and would check them daily on the Bazaar.

The EC Tunnels were always a hot area.

The biggest failure in MMOs today is that they are no longer Massive Multi-player. They all feel like single player games with a bit of Multi-player on occasion.

Games like Everquest was a Multi-player with very little single player. That is how it should be today. But I fear those are days long gone, never to return.

Vrika

I think the time it would take to sell your wares through spamming sale messages could be better spend spamming LFG messages if a game without good LFG tool, and making groups for adventuring.

Please make tools for selling the wares as automated as possible, and have us socialize with people we're adventuring with.

Sovrath

Originally posted by Nightbringe1

 

 

I feel /auction is way too spammy, with dozens of people spamming their sale macros over all auction channels every few seconds.

I always liked seeing the sales in chat. To me it reminded me of cities with people hawking their wares.

Rattenmann

I am kinda unsure on this one.

 

I want a social experience, more then anyone else maybe. And i know the tunnel used to be awesome. I do however think that this is one of those FEW things that actually got BETTER in modern games by doing it the AH way. There are people that just love trading the old way, and i certainly do as well sometimes, but i am VERY unsure if this has a big enough fanbase (even within the pantheon fanbase!) to warrant doing it.

 

may be jumping the gun here, but even for Pantheon i can not see the EC tunnel return. It was fun, for some it may still be fun, but is it practical and rewarding still? I don't know.

Tamanous

Originally posted by Nightbringe1

Originally posted by Tamanous

This was 100% player driven content above and beyond what developers had to spend time and money on ... the VERY thing most developers are so desperately trying to recreated in mmos. Then EQ added auction houses and completely obliterated this community event that became very popular. Instead of building upon to both add more tools and solutions to existing shortcomings it they instead dismantled it. The irony is devastating when looking back compared to what we see today in most games. 

 

EQ had likely one of the most possitive, unplanned side affects of their game design to ever develop within an mmo, the very start of player driven and sandbox like content that gave players something to do, drove interaction and cooperation, built entire guilds based upon the need ... and proceeded to strip all of it from their game.

I agree that the Tunnel in EQ was a very special place, with a very special community. Unfortunately, the nature of /auction and the people inhabiting /auction has changed greatly since then. In games I've played the past few years, /auction has become a shark infested cesspool. A small number of players living in this toxic environment 24/7 quickly come to dominate it, with most sales skewed heavily towards the high end. They will never set a price, demanding the player make an offer, and heaven's forbid you bid low: /ignored. At the same time, these players are lowballing everyone not willing to live in /auction.

The rate messages flash by in /auction is nearly a blur. Forget reading anything without scrolling back up. The people playing the market game hardcore will be flooding all channels with macro's spamming their wares every few seconds. There is nothing friendly in the /auction channels in todays games. Nothing social. That went away as soon as RMT entered the market. These people are here to win at any cost, and playing the market is a far more efficient means of generating revenue than farming.

In the meantime, a new player seeking low end starter gear is out of luck. It's not worth anyone's hassle dealing with the cesspool to sell low end or newbie gear. It's go big or go home. I prefer to avoid this. Broker systems allow all players to participate in the system, with even the low level newbie able to buy/sell to other low level players without dealing with /auction. The transactions the more casual player is interested in are of little interest to the sharks. Not enough profit.

I agree that it had shortcomings that needed to be resolved (as I stated). Pantheon has the opportunity to take away lesson learned from both what began in EQ and what has happened in modern mmos. They can create a system that solves both the problems of old and the new. The devs look to the past for many things in order to bring back the old school feel which is entirely their goal. Reasons to bring the community together is one such thing.

 

Similar issues also occurred in AC. The game engine couldn't handle too many players in one area. They added an archaic mechanic (by today's standards) where players were randomly ported outside of the area (mass groups were always seen running back to town lol). This happened in towns most frequently but even mass player events which you can imagine was slightly annoying. Same considerations have to be addressed in modern mmos. In fact it is what caused the instancing of mmos in the first place. Devs needed to spread people out and it certainly became over board and ruined the entire concept of the original mmorpg.

 

I simply hope that Pantheon devs put serious though into an auction system that still allows considerable players interaction and control while of course resolving many of the technical and practical problems both new and old with other systems. This is an opportunity for them ... not a limitation. There are many other games one can look to for alternatives that also had perks well worth exploring. If using an AH is simply someone's favorite because it is fast and convenient with no regard whatsoever to game play, game systems and community, I am afraid I cannot accept that as a valid reason for it in the context of this game.

Uziduke

I just really hope they stick to how EQ1 was and have very limited bound gear. Epic quest lines makes sense for the gear to be bound, but drops from NPCS and crafted gear should not bind. Soulbound gear is one of the worst MMO game mechanics ever,

Rattenmann

Originally posted by Uziduke
I just really hope they stick to how EQ1 was and have very limited bound gear. Epic quest lines makes sense for the gear to be bound, but drops from NPCS and crafted gear should not bind. Soulbound gear is one of the worst MMO game mechanics ever,

Could not agree more on this one.

Nothing but epic quests should bind to your character. I absolutly HATE that mechanic.

Niien

Here's an idea kind of... old and new put together.

 

How about instead of flooding chat, you instead are able to post items to a trade board of sorts in the zone you are in. It wouldn't be a physical board you would run to, though just a window you could open up.  It would only show your items to the people in the local zone, meaning it's not world wide.

These trading posts will be a GUI to where you are able to post items and as you move zone to zone people can see what you're peddling by opening up the trading post GUI and how much you're asking for the item. Then one or the other would have to travel to the other to make the transaction happen. If people pick one zone to be in while trading, then we would have an AH of sorts in one zone.

This way no one has to spam or try to read the spammed chat., though player communication and interaction is needed.

Xxerox

Originally posted by Niien

Here's an idea kind of... old and new put together.

 

How about instead of flooding chat, you instead are able to post items to a trade board of sorts in the zone you are in. It wouldn't be a physical board you would run to, though just a window you could open up.  It would only show your items to the people in the local zone, meaning it's not world wide.

These trading posts will be a GUI to where you are able to post items and as you move zone to zone people can see what you're peddling by opening up the trading post GUI and how much you're asking for the item. Then one or the other would have to travel to the other to make the transaction happen. If people pick one zone to be in while trading, then we would have an AH of sorts in one zone.

This way no one has to spam or try to read the spammed chat., though player communication and interaction is needed.

Could it be...    i remember from one game, one very nice shoping system, althrough i prefer action houses since i can see every item :

 

Player could open shops any place they wanted. There was no action house, and you had to see every single shop.

I have an idea, but i dont like it, mostly because it needs dozens more things like zone control, and setting prices for every single zone.

 

Honestly,  i dont see whats stoping people to scream in chat what they are selling. If they want to force others into buying their stuff, then there is no stoping them.

Raidan_EQ

+1 column for me for East Commonlands, EQ Style trading.  The best thing about EQ is not only did the majority of the trading occur in Gfay, or East Commonlands or some other centralized emergent location, but that also people sold their wares throughout the world and, "If" you wanted to take the time in EQ to make more money you could, as you could sell your gear obtained from one continent to another and turn quite the profit.  

 

With a centralized auction hall, it takes away all that emergent gameplay.    With auction houses, supply/demand gets completely distorted and people always price gouge and drive down any reason to sell items as the market becomes so flooded.  No more Banded armor 2 pp per ac, as Player A-Z is trying to sell banded armor and to sell quicker they will sell for 1.99, then 1.98, then 1.97 etc.

 

The only compromise I would be willing to make for an auction hall would be race/faction based.  Each city has their own auction hall that only inhabitants or those who are friendly/allied with the city could buy from.  If one were to try to sell their wares to a different faction/race, then they would have to use /auction or have to do some serious faction work to become allied. 

Sovrath

Originally posted by Raidan_EQ

+1 column for me for East Commonlands, EQ Style trading.  The best thing about EQ is not only did the majority of the trading occur in Gfay, or East Commonlands or some other centralized emergent location, but that also people sold their wares throughout the world and, "If" you wanted to take the time in EQ to make more money you could, as you could sell your gear from obtained from one continent to another and turn quite the profit.  

 

With a centralized auction hall, it takes away all that emergent gameplay.    With auction houses, supply/demand gets completely distorted and people always price gouge and drive down any reason to sell items as the market becomes so flooded.  

I absolutely agree. Especially with your first paragraph.

At the start of Lineage 2 you would get "no grade" soul/spirit shots (crystals that would empower your attacks) at starter villages.

People would then push on to the town of gludio which was "about" the start of D grade shots.

However, shots cost a lot and D grade also cost a lot so players were still using "no grade weapons/shots.

 

Players would take their dwarf characters (who could carry the most) buy as many of these no grade shots as they could and then set up shot in Gludio. They'd sell out and run back and do it again.

or they would set up buy shops at the front or just inside dungeons for certain crafting materials that would drop there. Once the bought their fill they would go to town and sell them at higher rates. Or use them for clan crafting.

Thebeasttt

I really don't care what auction system they use as long as most items are NOT soulbound. I've enjoyed tunnel questing in the past and I've enjoyed using an auction house.

That said, I have found 50 players sitting in a popular spot afk in barter mode to be rather immersion breaking. Even moreso if the game gets more popular and 50 afk people turns into 500.

Kilrain

Originally posted by Niien

Here's an idea kind of... old and new put together.

 

How about instead of flooding chat, you instead are able to post items to a trade board of sorts in the zone you are in. It wouldn't be a physical board you would run to, though just a window you could open up.  It would only show your items to the people in the local zone, meaning it's not world wide.

These trading posts will be a GUI to where you are able to post items and as you move zone to zone people can see what you're peddling by opening up the trading post GUI and how much you're asking for the item. Then one or the other would have to travel to the other to make the transaction happen. If people pick one zone to be in while trading, then we would have an AH of sorts in one zone.

This way no one has to spam or try to read the spammed chat., though player communication and interaction is needed.

Unnecessary. The auction "channel" is mutable (when implemented correctly) so there is no reason not to have one. You only need to visit the auction channel when you are interested in buying/selling something.

Another reason why I prefer the EQ method is player interaction and the need to travel. Even if you find someone in the trade channel that has what you want, you guys still need to meet up.

Tokken

I dislike Players screaming their wares in the trade chat. I's spam to me. I vote for an auction house.

Raidan_EQ

Originally posted by Tokken

I dislike Players screaming their wares in the trade chat. I's spam to me. I vote for an auction house.

/toggle auction off

There's plenty of reasons someone could argue for an auction hall, dealing with chat spam shouldn't be one of them.

darthblaze

Honestly I'm surprised no one has brought up Star wars galaxies system... I loved the "Bazaar" idea, a local auction house that limits the cost of something sold, but would then branch out to player housing vendors. I think it was a great idea, and would be an awesome addition, A small auction house for day to day sales... Bags, Quest items, anything of small value, then branch out to look at player prices and auctions and be able to travel to the player's shop or given a location..? Maybe seems rather large of an idea, but i loved the "Community" in it.