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The Destructive Legacy of WoW

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  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236
    edited September 2015
     
    Post edited by ArtificeVenatus on
  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236
    edited September 2015
     
    Post edited by ArtificeVenatus on
  • WaterlilyWaterlily Member UncommonPosts: 3,105
    I didn't realize it Venatus, it's so common for people to be against any form of timesink. Everything in today's world has to be rushed it seems.
  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236
    edited September 2015
     
    Post edited by ArtificeVenatus on
  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,722
    Originally posted by Waterlily
    I didn't realize it Venatus, it's so common for people to be against any form of timesink. Everything in today's world has to be rushed it seems.

    while i agree with you here, and oh i do hate when games are designed to be rushed to end game in order to reach the "fun part", grinding mobs for levels (you mentioned it on your previous post/list) is not a fun timesink in mmos, its boring IMO. Unfortunately, most (if not all) mmo companies have taken the questing system and made it another boring timesink. Quests are meant to get the players through the story of the game while gaining progress (levels), but instead they just offer dumb repetitive tasks for fast leveling.

     

    Grinding mobs for levels could be fun in mmos if it was something like Dark Souls. Combat that is not based on stat numbers but actual player skill coupled with harsh death to avoid mindless faceroll easy grind even when grouping with others.

     

    My two cents.





  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236
    edited September 2015
     
    Post edited by ArtificeVenatus on
  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,829
    Originally posted by rojoArcueid
    Originally posted by Waterlily
    I didn't realize it Venatus, it's so common for people to be against any form of timesink. Everything in today's world has to be rushed it seems.

    while i agree with you here, and oh i do hate when games are designed to be rushed to end game in order to reach the "fun part", grinding mobs for levels (you mentioned it on your previous post/list) is not a fun timesink in mmos, its boring IMO. Unfortunately, most (if not all) mmo companies have taken the questing system and made it another boring timesink. Quests are meant to get the players through the story of the game while gaining progress (levels), but instead they just offer dumb repetitive tasks for fast leveling.

     

    Grinding mobs for levels could be fun in mmos if it was something like Dark Souls. Combat that is not based on stat numbers but actual player skill coupled with harsh death to avoid mindless faceroll easy grind even when grouping with others.

     

    My two cents.

    Not all MMOs. Some like SWTOR and TWS are far more about the journey than the boring endgame grind. Players have always been obsessed with racing to the level cap though, even back in the stone age of the MMO industry they were trying to club mobs to death as fast as possible in order to get there.

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • ThaneThane Member EpicPosts: 3,534

    Wow gave the genre players.

    before it, mmos were more of a niche game than what WoW is now - having 11 million subs.

     

    for example, in DAoC you could do a /who all, to get ALL active players on your realm for the moment. 

    the resulrs at night usually were a hundred.. not alot more (unless wildehilde just started a relic raid)

     

    there is a reason you can't do that in WoW :P there memory needed for all those players typing /who all and the resulting answer from the server (especialy with x-realm) might kill the network connection

     

     

    and if someone seriously thinks WoW destroyed anything.... well, so did VW (or GMC in the states i guess) for the car industry ^^

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    A model where the vast majority of customer subs go onto profit rather than investment in the market leader is destructive. 1billion gross a year, no content for a year, last patch - selfies, yes selfies lol.. And why does this happen - because the raiding MMO style is a closed book, people who play wow don't fight for change, and blizzard don't care.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Imagine paying for a tv service where you got 1 new series a year and the rest is repeats and a reorhanisation of the channel numbers once a year. This is blizzard.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • MukeMuke Member RarePosts: 2,614
    Originally posted by Waterlily

    WoW catered to the lowest common denominator

    no risk

    *it removed heavy death penalties

    no risk

    *it removed corpse runs

    no risk

    *it removed hell levels

    no effort-skills needed

    *it made sure every class could solo

    no effort-skills needed

    *it put an invisible leash on every mob, so mobs couldn't run or train anymore

    *it made raids smaller so you didn't need so many people anymore

    less effort

    *it removed slow travel

    no immersion + no world pvp

    *it added dungeon finders and automated grouping so the social barrier was removed and you no longer needed to interact with others

    no immersion-communitie binding-world pvp

    *it removed pulling and made CC less important, making it easier for groups

    no effort-skills needed

    *it increased the defense of non-tank classes so they could take a hit easier

    no effort-skills needed

    *it color coded items so you didn't have to find out what AC did on your own anymore

    no thinking

    *it made gear resets faster

    *it removed grinding mobs in favor of doing quests

    quests are kill x mobs all over again...that is called grinding

    *it made trading more accessible

    no effort-skills needed

    *it added offline trading, you could now log out and trade offline through the AH

    milking

     

    Basicaly, WoW took everything that was hard or time consuming about EQ, and threw it out the window. That's what attracted so many people to WoW, anyone could play it, anyone could raid, and all timesinks were removed.

     

    And thus WOW offers no risk/challenge. Players who do think it is a very challenging game have a very hard time playing any other mmo and would be better off staying with Wow till it dies.

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Muke
    Originally posted by Waterlily

    WoW catered to the lowest common denominator

    no risk

    *it removed heavy death penalties

    no risk

    *it removed corpse runs

    no risk

    *it removed hell levels

    no effort-skills needed

    *it made sure every class could solo

    no effort-skills needed

    *it put an invisible leash on every mob, so mobs couldn't run or train anymore

    *it made raids smaller so you didn't need so many people anymore

    less effort

    *it removed slow travel

    no immersion + no world pvp

    *it added dungeon finders and automated grouping so the social barrier was removed and you no longer needed to interact with others

    no immersion-communitie binding-world pvp

    *it removed pulling and made CC less important, making it easier for groups

    no effort-skills needed

    *it increased the defense of non-tank classes so they could take a hit easier

    no effort-skills needed

    *it color coded items so you didn't have to find out what AC did on your own anymore

    no thinking

    *it made gear resets faster

    *it removed grinding mobs in favor of doing quests

    quests are kill x mobs all over again...that is called grinding

    *it made trading more accessible

    no effort-skills needed

    *it added offline trading, you could now log out and trade offline through the AH

    milking

     

    Basicaly, WoW took everything that was hard or time consuming about EQ, and threw it out the window. That's what attracted so many people to WoW, anyone could play it, anyone could raid, and all timesinks were removed.

     

    And thus WOW offers no risk/challenge. Players who do think it is a very challenging game have a very hard time playing any other mmo and would be better off staying with Wow till it dies.

    In term of challenges it offers one of the most challnging endgames, its more challenging than anything "old school" games had, and certainly infinitely more challenging than camping mobs/boss spawns (except you count tagging as "challenge")

    In fact, camping was one of most braindead thing in MMOs ever.

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member EpicPosts: 3,473
    Originally posted by Waterlily

    WoW catered to the lowest common denominator

    *it removed heavy death penalties THAT WAS EQ2

    *it removed corpse runs THAT WAS EQ2

    *it removed hell levels THAT WAS EQ2

    *it made sure every class could solo THAT WAS EQ2

    *it put an invisible leash on every mob, so mobs couldn't run or train anymore THAT WAS EQ2

    *it made raids smaller so you didn't need so many people anymore THAT WAS EQ2

    *it removed slow travel THAT WAS EQ PLANES OF POWER 

    *it added dungeon finders and automated grouping so the social barrier was removed and you no longer needed to interact with OTHERS THAT WAS EQ2

    *it removed pulling and made CC less important, making it easier for groups

    *it increased the defense of non-tank classes so they could take a hit easier

    *it color coded items so you didn't have to find out what AC did on your own anymore THAT WAS EQ2

    *it made gear resets faster THAT WAS EQ2

    *it removed grinding mobs in favor of doing quests THAT WAS EQ2

    *it made trading more accessible THAT WAS EQ2

    *it added offline trading, you could now log out and trade offline through the AH THAT WAS EQ NEXUS AND THE EQ2

     

    Basicaly, WoW took everything that was hard or time consuming about EQ, and threw it out the window. That's what attracted so many people to WoW, anyone could play it, anyone could raid, and all timesinks were removed.

     

    You do know that WoW came out after EQ2?




  • MukeMuke Member RarePosts: 2,614
    Originally posted by SavageHorizon
    Originally posted by Waterlily

    WoW catered to the lowest common denominator

    *it removed heavy death penalties THAT WAS EQ2

    *it removed corpse runs THAT WAS EQ2

    *it removed hell levels THAT WAS EQ2

    *it made sure every class could solo THAT WAS EQ2

    *it put an invisible leash on every mob, so mobs couldn't run or train anymore THAT WAS EQ2

    *it made raids smaller so you didn't need so many people anymore THAT WAS EQ2

    *it removed slow travel THAT WAS EQ PLANES OF POWER 

    *it added dungeon finders and automated grouping so the social barrier was removed and you no longer needed to interact with OTHERS THAT WAS EQ2

    *it removed pulling and made CC less important, making it easier for groups

    *it increased the defense of non-tank classes so they could take a hit easier

    *it color coded items so you didn't have to find out what AC did on your own anymore THAT WAS EQ2

    *it made gear resets faster THAT WAS EQ2

    *it removed grinding mobs in favor of doing quests THAT WAS EQ2

    *it made trading more accessible THAT WAS EQ2

    *it added offline trading, you could now log out and trade offline through the AH THAT WAS EQ NEXUS AND THE EQ2

     

    Basicaly, WoW took everything that was hard or time consuming about EQ, and threw it out the window. That's what attracted so many people to WoW, anyone could play it, anyone could raid, and all timesinks were removed.

     

    You do know that WoW came out after EQ2?

    Well, it was by like only 1-2months or so. :P

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member EpicPosts: 3,473
    Originally posted by Muke
    Originally posted by SavageHorizon
    Originally posted by Waterlily

    WoW catered to the lowest common denominator

    *it removed heavy death penalties THAT WAS EQ2

    *it removed corpse runs THAT WAS EQ2

    *it removed hell levels THAT WAS EQ2

    *it made sure every class could solo THAT WAS EQ2

    *it put an invisible leash on every mob, so mobs couldn't run or train anymore THAT WAS EQ2

    *it made raids smaller so you didn't need so many people anymore THAT WAS EQ2

    *it removed slow travel THAT WAS EQ PLANES OF POWER 

    *it added dungeon finders and automated grouping so the social barrier was removed and you no longer needed to interact with OTHERS THAT WAS EQ2

    *it removed pulling and made CC less important, making it easier for groups

    *it increased the defense of non-tank classes so they could take a hit easier

    *it color coded items so you didn't have to find out what AC did on your own anymore THAT WAS EQ2

    *it made gear resets faster THAT WAS EQ2

    *it removed grinding mobs in favor of doing quests THAT WAS EQ2

    *it made trading more accessible THAT WAS EQ2

    *it added offline trading, you could now log out and trade offline through the AH THAT WAS EQ NEXUS AND THE EQ2

     

    Basicaly, WoW took everything that was hard or time consuming about EQ, and threw it out the window. That's what attracted so many people to WoW, anyone could play it, anyone could raid, and all timesinks were removed.

     

    You do know that WoW came out after EQ2?

    Well, it was by like only 1-2months or so. :P

    So there you go it wasn't WoW that bought those features in,  it was EQ2




  • fivorothfivoroth Member UncommonPosts: 3,916

    I started reading the article and I simply couldn't finish it. There is too much crap in there. There are tons of arguments which are outright biased and subjective.

    The author of that article constantly gets confused when talking about the focus and features of WoW. He talks about how there is no social interaction and how guild members don't know each other but this was not true during Vanilla/TBC time. This is the end state of teh game as it is.

    WoW is not at fault that other MMORPG developers are incompetent and produce garbage which is not even worth the box price let alone a subscription.

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  • HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,411
    Originally posted by fivoroth

    I started reading the article and I simply couldn't finish it. There is too much crap in there. There are tons of arguments which are outright biased and subjective.

    The author of that article constantly gets confused when talking about the focus and features of WoW. He talks about how there is no social interaction and how guild members don't know each other but this was not true during Vanilla/TBC time. This is the end state of teh game as it is.

    WoW is not at fault that other MMORPG developers are incompetent and produce garbage which is not even worth the box price let alone a subscription.

    that completely depends on the guild.  If you are in a raiding guild the raid groups know each other well.

  • fivorothfivoroth Member UncommonPosts: 3,916
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    I haven't read everything, but I tend to agree with most points.

     

    "The problem is they have no idea of what went before them and what we experienced. They will never know the thrill of earning the right to exploring new worlds and the pulse pounding feeling of risking everything by dying and possibly losing years of your characters life."

     

    I agree with this because I don't think people who haven't played MMO pre-WOW understand this point.

    When you ran through kithicor forest in Everquest, you felt fear, when you did some of the later raids in Gates, you could feel your heart bounce in your chest, there was a lot at stake, the game was more brutal and harder. The game made you care about your character and friends mattered.

     

    The lack of roleplaying is striking too, I don't think most games on this site are actually MMORPG, certainly no roleplaying in today's twitch games.

    Roleplaying was very much alive in WoW at launch. Roleplaying as in people actually playing as their ingame character would. As someone already said in this topic, the argument that WoW ruined the genre is making one big assumption that the genre was doing well or was any good before WoW came out.

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Horusra
    Originally posted by fivoroth

    I started reading the article and I simply couldn't finish it. There is too much crap in there. There are tons of arguments which are outright biased and subjective.

    The author of that article constantly gets confused when talking about the focus and features of WoW. He talks about how there is no social interaction and how guild members don't know each other but this was not true during Vanilla/TBC time. This is the end state of teh game as it is.

    WoW is not at fault that other MMORPG developers are incompetent and produce garbage which is not even worth the box price let alone a subscription.

    that completely depends on the guild.  If you are in a raiding guild the raid groups know each other well.

    The point is that today there is broad demographic, while in early days only niche demographic cared about MMOs (as i said even most ofg gamers didnt really care about MMOs)

    So you would have to stop being lazy and demand "community" on silver platter and look for people with similar interest. But i guess some of the "old school" players found their group with similar interest and all joined "jaded vets" "guild" and are communaly whining on forums :)

  • fivorothfivoroth Member UncommonPosts: 3,916
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    You do realize 12-13 year olds were raid leads in WoW which offered many times more challenging raids than EQ ever did right? People joke about it because it was an actual thing.

    I'm definitely not willing to defend Kiyoris in ANY way, but the only problem I see with a 12 years old playing EQ back then is the price of the Internet connection, which was not only slow, but also expensive and not unlimited and therefore billed over time used. Unless his parents are Bill Gates or something like that, I don't see an adult letting a kid use his Internet connection back then to play the many many hours that the full time job that was EQ required. I won't even mention the school problems if a kid spends his nights raiding instead of doing homework and sleeping, not to mention the many other tedious and time wasting things you had to do in that game in order to be semi-efficient at raiding.

    So a 12 years old leading raids in EQ? I also have some doubts about that.

    This is completely irrelevant though. The 12-13 year old argument was brought to indicate the complexity of the raids. Whether they could afford to play EQ at the time or not is a different stor. Raids in EQ are not any more complex that a 12 year old won't be able to complete them.

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  • fivorothfivoroth Member UncommonPosts: 3,916
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

    And all the apologists come out of the woodwork who want to bury their head in the sand and pretend the MMO genre has never been better, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

     

    OP never claimed WoW actively did this, but the current market is absolutely a response to WoW's success.

    Oh yeah, WoW greatly participated in the fact that MMORPGs, or at least their "end game" content, is no longer doable just by no life hardcore teenage/jobless nerds but also by adult people with a job, a family, and other leisure activities than just sitting in front of a screen.

    WoW is definitely the devil.

    No one is saying WoW is the devil?

    No one is even talking directly about WoW. You seem to actively attempt to troll and derail every conversation.

    But for the record, your point is nonsense, because WoW's raiding was almost identical to EQ's raiding, except that in many pre WoW MMOs, many casual gamers could hop into massive raids with a lot of other players and do a one off.

    With EQ/WoW's tierred style raiding, you needed a static group of players, usually a guild, and you needed to regularly grind the same raid over and over to memorize it, then grind it more to get all the loot for everyone in your static group, so you can have the gear to move on to the next raid.

    It was the most exclusionary raiding system I ever saw, and my so called "casual" friend spent almost every night for years raiding just to participate. Whereas in those "old hokey MMOs" like DAoC, I could decide "I want to do a raid tonight" and hop into a random raid group, and have an equal shot at the loot.

     

    You make the assumption that it is all about raiding. WoW's levelling experience during vanilla was the most casual friendly at the time. EQ was for no lifers, everyone knew that. It took thousands of hours to get max level. EQ raiding was even more hardcore than WOW raiding and WoW raiding became even more casual as time went on to a point where they have the most casual friendly raiding at the moment.

    But yeah for people like me who loved the levelling and PvP in WoW, the game was quite casual friendly. Something you can never say about EQ. Casuals had no place in EQ. People in EQ spent more than half of their waking hours or even all of their waking hours playing the game. There was a reason everyone looked down and mocked EQ players, as they were seen as basement dwellers. And that was mostly true.

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  • fivorothfivoroth Member UncommonPosts: 3,916
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade

    WoW collected some of the best elements of the genre, and cut out the cancers that were keeping it back. Add in a lot of streamlining and a few nifty new features, and voila, a record breaking success for WoW.

    Well done, Blizzard! I salute you!

    lmao, huh? New features? Name them, I dare you.

    WoW brought NOTHING original to the table. And it collected a lot of the worst elements too. (EQ style raiding, linear tierred gear grind, instanced dungeons, shallow class system). It was basically EQ with the best bits AND the worst bits shaved off, leaving a great big boring nothing for most people.

    People forget most of the success came from being the first big budget MMO with a multi million dollar ad budget from a beloved company and a 6 year dev time.

    Azaron, with posts like yours you are going to give EQ fanboys a heartattack. Tiber is one example of this. EQ fanboys can't grasp the fact that another game can be considered better than their steaming pile of crap designed for no lifers.

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  • MukeMuke Member RarePosts: 2,614
    Originally posted by fivoroth

     

    You make the assumption that it is all about raiding.

    For many it is.

    Talk to any WoW player and 99% chance he will mention raiding within 10 seconds.

     

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • WaterlilyWaterlily Member UncommonPosts: 3,105
    Originally posted by fivoroth

    Raids in EQ are not any more complex that a 12 year old won't be able to complete them.

    For crying out loud.  We spent 6 months in Underfoot on The Beast, we had a total of around 300 wipes before our first kill. Serverwide first.

    There isn't a single 12 year old in our guild, and there never will be. And just like Kiyoris, I am not too fond of people who can't back up their claims.  There aren't 12 year old guild leaders, there aren't any serious 12 year old raiders and there never were, Gates of Discord was so complex and hard it took another expansion for a guild to make it through it. EQ has some of the hardest raids in any MMO, much harder than you'll ever find in a game like WoW.

  • WaterlilyWaterlily Member UncommonPosts: 3,105
    Originally posted by fivoroth

    Casuals had no place in EQ.

    EQ had hundreds of casual guilds. All servers had open raiding systems where casual could join raids without any requirements. There was never a requirement to raid, hardcore raiders were a minority and anyone was welcome in the game.

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