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The Destructive Legacy of WoW

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  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 1,081

    I read the article.  And it makes a lot of sense.  I am not sure why so many here have issue with it.  I think it's because it lays a lot of blame on the players as well.  People are just defensive, but a lot of what he said is true, most of it even...

  • nyxiumnyxium Member UncommonPosts: 1,345

    Did the WoW Token just destroy WoW?

    In trade chat some of the players I've talked to displayed disgust that gold buying is now legal and it seems to be a very destructive element from what I've observed.

    Just the concept of buying gold, rather than making it ingame seems to be enough to have killed WoW for them and they might not hang around much longer. Is this how it will end for WoW? A slow decline of genuine fans and only a gold buying majority left who might not have any appreciation for the game and may leave as well, just as easily as they arrived with easy pay to win mechanics seeing them off once they have got what they want with insta-gold, yawned, then leave while the real fans who have seen things through thick and thin have abandoned WoW in digust as well?

    I don't blame the dev's they do an amazing job with the world(s) they have built, cough, even garrisons, cough.

    I blame the managerial greed of ActivBlizz, it is more destructive than they know or give a crap about. They just see the money not the game anymore, yes I know they are a business they have to make money but they were anyway, and a devoted playerbase is leaving, the WoW Token may be the final straw on the camels back, it is metaphorically buckling and snapping.

  • MukeMuke Member RarePosts: 2,614
    Originally posted by doodphace
     

    Then you would love WoW, as it contains the hardest raid encounters ever released.

    I like PVP, I loathe PVE raid communities. It is just a gear tredmill.

    And yes, I have done raids, I have done PVP in WOW, even Arena, bunny hopping around pillars playing rock paper scissors.

    I like PVP, be it single or mass. And with mass I mean numbers ranging from 20-5000.

    WOW: No risk in losing, where is the challenge.

     

    No, I don't like that game on easy mode, leveling to 100 from scratch without dying once, even on a pvp server. Or just buy my lvl 90. And no, I am not impressed with even mythical raids.

     

    I am not impressed with easy mode WOW.

     

     

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    The gold still had to be made in game afaik by an actual player.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 1,081
    Originally posted by nyxium

    Did the WoW Token just destroy WoW?

    In trade chat some of the players I've talked to displayed disgust that gold buying is now legal and it seems to be a very destructive element from what I've observed.

    Just the concept of buying gold, rather than making it ingame seems to be enough to have killed WoW for them and they might not hang around much longer. Is this how it will end for WoW? A slow decline of genuine fans and only a gold buying majority left who might not have any appreciation for the game and may leave as well, just as easily as they arrived with easy pay to win mechanics seeing them off once they have got what they want with insta-gold, yawned, then leave while the real fans who have seen things through thick and thin have abandoned WoW in digust as well?

    I don't blame the dev's they do an amazing job with the world(s) they have built, cough, even garrisons, cough.

    I blame the managerial greed of ActivBlizz, it is more destructive than they know or give a crap about. They just see the money not the game anymore, yes I know they are a business they have to make money but they were anyway, and a devoted playerbase is leaving, the WoW Token may be the final straw on the camels back, it is metaphorically buckling and snapping.

    Unless you didn't purchase the later expansion buying gold is a waste of money.  Garrisons basically throw gold at you, really...  No one buys gold except those people dumb enough to buy crafted gear, which can end up being worse than rewards from Garrison missions (which can reward Warforged Heroic Raid Drops).

    There is no need to do that in WoW.  They single handedly killed the gold selling market in that game (except to people without any common sense) in one fell swoop.

  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 1,081
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    The gold still had to be made in game afaik by an actual player.

    The gold can often be farmed by bots in many MMOs.  In some cases, it takes so little effort that you're barely playing the game.  In other cases, e.g. Lineage II, you don't even have to be at the keyboard since the program can play full groups of characters on its own.

    EDIT:  Auto Correct fails.

  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 1,081
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by ArtificeVenatus
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Darksworm

     

    Guilds were having to put Plane of Time on a schedule with other guilds, forcing them to take sometimes 4-5x longer to gear up than possible because they had to share the zone with other guilds to be fair - especially when those other guilds raided in different time zones than they did.

    Monday - Guild A

    Wednesday - Guild B

    Friday - Guild C etc.

    Sometimes upwards of 5+ guilds were farming the zone.  So you're progressing at the rate of 1 raid per week there when you should be doing 2-3 raids per week there, and you're now farming for alts and boxes in elemental planes cause no one in your guild needs it (which, BTW, is also on a rotation... for the same reasons).

    This is why they went to instances in Gates of Discord.  Quality of Life, for their players.

    The only reason why people liked the Open World raid content in EQ, was because it made it easy for top guilds to farm content on spawn and basically keep guilds under them from progressing (and eventually passing them, in some cases).

    EQ wasn't a PvP game, where... you'd want it to be Open World so that you could fight other players over it.  People abused the open content to grief others, especially on servers like Antonia Bayle where there were top Euro and US guilds, and one guild had i.e. Solusek Ro spawning on their time zone and would kill it on spawn to prevent the other guild from getting into the Elemental Planes.

    Yup, and that is touted as "golden years of MMOs"

    Once has to wonder - what are they smoking :)

    Instead of instancing raids, could it be possible to make the zones scan, register and scale content based on who is in them these days (I am fairly certain the technology would not have handled them back then)? Wouldn't it then be possible to have truly MMO-EPIC raid battles if multiple guilds showed up, and yet a typical raid if 1 guild showed up, and typical one-raid party worth of content to make certain groups would have a hell of a time attempting such content (or even more content if more groups showed attempting to trick the system)? I am guessing in this day and age, the answer is likely yes, so long as the MMORPG does not go with quite top of the line graphics and audio.

    GW2 has already done it. But you have to be in on the development of MMOs, not lamenting 15 years ago all day.

    GW2 scales character levels down to content level, it does not scale zones to player populations and average player levels.

    So before you insult others, and try to make GW2 look like some hallmark of innovation (which it is not, at least not IMO), get the facts straight ;-)

    GW2 Dynamic Events are not much different than the rifts in Rift, IMO, except the Rifts in Rift were a bit more entertaining...  at east for the first week or so then they got just as annoying as the dynamic events in GW2 (because they aren't all that dynamic :-( ).

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,722
    Originally posted by Dullahan

     

    As WoW has systematically obliterated every MMORPG that came before it, the fate of the entire genre is now symbiotically linked to WoW. Look at your average MMO today and chances are it’s just another WoW clone with a different skin, story and setting.

     

    Has the success of WoW destroyed the genre you loved, or improved it?

    Why people keep blaming WoW when other companies are the ones proving less competent? Other mmorpg companies need to move away from the WoW formula and do their own thing. Development cost has gotten so ridiculously high that nobody wants to take risks anymore, so many of them prefer to just make a short term quick buck with a poor game (or a WoW copy). Blaming WoW for that is a little bit ridiculous IMO.

     

    WoW's massive success is a one in a lifetime thing. In the last few years we have witnessed the lack of creativity in the mmorpg development space due to, again, not wanting to take risks.

     

    Let me repeat myself here, WoW has nothing to do with other games' problems.





  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Darksworm
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by ArtificeVenatus
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Darksworm

     

    Guilds were having to put Plane of Time on a schedule with other guilds, forcing them to take sometimes 4-5x longer to gear up than possible because they had to share the zone with other guilds to be fair - especially when those other guilds raided in different time zones than they did.

    Monday - Guild A

    Wednesday - Guild B

    Friday - Guild C etc.

    Sometimes upwards of 5+ guilds were farming the zone.  So you're progressing at the rate of 1 raid per week there when you should be doing 2-3 raids per week there, and you're now farming for alts and boxes in elemental planes cause no one in your guild needs it (which, BTW, is also on a rotation... for the same reasons).

    This is why they went to instances in Gates of Discord.  Quality of Life, for their players.

    The only reason why people liked the Open World raid content in EQ, was because it made it easy for top guilds to farm content on spawn and basically keep guilds under them from progressing (and eventually passing them, in some cases).

    EQ wasn't a PvP game, where... you'd want it to be Open World so that you could fight other players over it.  People abused the open content to grief others, especially on servers like Antonia Bayle where there were top Euro and US guilds, and one guild had i.e. Solusek Ro spawning on their time zone and would kill it on spawn to prevent the other guild from getting into the Elemental Planes.

    Yup, and that is touted as "golden years of MMOs"

    Once has to wonder - what are they smoking :)

    Instead of instancing raids, could it be possible to make the zones scan, register and scale content based on who is in them these days (I am fairly certain the technology would not have handled them back then)? Wouldn't it then be possible to have truly MMO-EPIC raid battles if multiple guilds showed up, and yet a typical raid if 1 guild showed up, and typical one-raid party worth of content to make certain groups would have a hell of a time attempting such content (or even more content if more groups showed attempting to trick the system)? I am guessing in this day and age, the answer is likely yes, so long as the MMORPG does not go with quite top of the line graphics and audio.

    GW2 has already done it. But you have to be in on the development of MMOs, not lamenting 15 years ago all day.

    GW2 scales character levels down to content level, it does not scale zones to player populations and average player levels.

    So before you insult others, and try to make GW2 look like some hallmark of innovation (which it is not, at least not IMO), get the facts straight ;-)

    GW2 Dynamic Events are not much different than the rifts in Rift, IMO, except the Rifts in Rift were a bit more entertaining...  at east for the first week or so then they got just as annoying as the dynamic events in GW2 (because they aren't all that dynamic :-( ).

    Events scale to the number of players. Since launch. And they did constant improvements and refinements of that same scaling over the years.

    And events are dynamic. Wheter you like it or not. Rifts rifts OTOH are static. When centaurs take back half of the zone, and then are pushed back by players differences are pretty obvious.

    You would only claim otherwise if you havent played one of them.

  • observerobserver Member RarePosts: 3,685
    Originally posted by Darksworm
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by ArtificeVenatus
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Darksworm

     

    Guilds were having to put Plane of Time on a schedule with other guilds, forcing them to take sometimes 4-5x longer to gear up than possible because they had to share the zone with other guilds to be fair - especially when those other guilds raided in different time zones than they did.

    Monday - Guild A

    Wednesday - Guild B

    Friday - Guild C etc.

    Sometimes upwards of 5+ guilds were farming the zone.  So you're progressing at the rate of 1 raid per week there when you should be doing 2-3 raids per week there, and you're now farming for alts and boxes in elemental planes cause no one in your guild needs it (which, BTW, is also on a rotation... for the same reasons).

    This is why they went to instances in Gates of Discord.  Quality of Life, for their players.

    The only reason why people liked the Open World raid content in EQ, was because it made it easy for top guilds to farm content on spawn and basically keep guilds under them from progressing (and eventually passing them, in some cases).

    EQ wasn't a PvP game, where... you'd want it to be Open World so that you could fight other players over it.  People abused the open content to grief others, especially on servers like Antonia Bayle where there were top Euro and US guilds, and one guild had i.e. Solusek Ro spawning on their time zone and would kill it on spawn to prevent the other guild from getting into the Elemental Planes.

    Yup, and that is touted as "golden years of MMOs"

    Once has to wonder - what are they smoking :)

    Instead of instancing raids, could it be possible to make the zones scan, register and scale content based on who is in them these days (I am fairly certain the technology would not have handled them back then)? Wouldn't it then be possible to have truly MMO-EPIC raid battles if multiple guilds showed up, and yet a typical raid if 1 guild showed up, and typical one-raid party worth of content to make certain groups would have a hell of a time attempting such content (or even more content if more groups showed attempting to trick the system)? I am guessing in this day and age, the answer is likely yes, so long as the MMORPG does not go with quite top of the line graphics and audio.

    GW2 has already done it. But you have to be in on the development of MMOs, not lamenting 15 years ago all day.

    GW2 scales character levels down to content level, it does not scale zones to player populations and average player levels.

    So before you insult others, and try to make GW2 look like some hallmark of innovation (which it is not, at least not IMO), get the facts straight ;-)

    GW2 Dynamic Events are not much different than the rifts in Rift, IMO, except the Rifts in Rift were a bit more entertaining...  at east for the first week or so then they got just as annoying as the dynamic events in GW2 (because they aren't all that dynamic :-( ).

    Rift events were more static though.  They were pretty much like Warhammer's Public Quest system.  It's been so long since i played either though, so this is just a generalization.  GW2 events are more dynamic from what i remember, even if it is a fail/succeed, rotational type of system.  Certain places and bosses become locked or inaccessible if an event fails, and some vendors, and points of interests also become locked too.  It's a lot more dynamic than people give it credit for.

  • AmjocoAmjoco Member UncommonPosts: 4,860
    Originally posted by Darksworm
    Originally posted by nyxium

    Did the WoW Token just destroy WoW?

    In trade chat some of the players I've talked to displayed disgust that gold buying is now legal and it seems to be a very destructive element from what I've observed.

    Just the concept of buying gold, rather than making it ingame seems to be enough to have killed WoW for them and they might not hang around much longer. Is this how it will end for WoW? A slow decline of genuine fans and only a gold buying majority left who might not have any appreciation for the game and may leave as well, just as easily as they arrived with easy pay to win mechanics seeing them off once they have got what they want with insta-gold, yawned, then leave while the real fans who have seen things through thick and thin have abandoned WoW in digust as well?

    I don't blame the dev's they do an amazing job with the world(s) they have built, cough, even garrisons, cough.

    I blame the managerial greed of ActivBlizz, it is more destructive than they know or give a crap about. They just see the money not the game anymore, yes I know they are a business they have to make money but they were anyway, and a devoted playerbase is leaving, the WoW Token may be the final straw on the camels back, it is metaphorically buckling and snapping.

    Unless you didn't purchase the later expansion buying gold is a waste of money.  Garrisons basically throw gold at you, really...  No one buys gold except those people dumb enough to buy crafted gear, which can end up being worse than rewards from Garrison missions (which can reward Warforged Heroic Raid Drops).

    There is no need to do that in WoW.  They single handedly killed the gold selling market in that game (except to people without any common sense) in one fell swoop.

    This might be the case if 10 million players had garrisons. 

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    Originally posted by rojoArcueid
    Originally posted by Dullahan

     

    As WoW has systematically obliterated every MMORPG that came before it, the fate of the entire genre is now symbiotically linked to WoW. Look at your average MMO today and chances are it’s just another WoW clone with a different skin, story and setting.

     

    Has the success of WoW destroyed the genre you loved, or improved it?

    Why people keep blaming WoW when other companies are the ones proving less competent? Other mmorpg companies need to move away from the WoW formula and do their own thing. Development cost has gotten so ridiculously high that nobody wants to take risks anymore, so many of them prefer to just make a short term quick buck with a poor game (or a WoW copy). Blaming WoW for that is a little bit ridiculous IMO.

     

    WoW's massive success is a one in a lifetime thing. In the last few years we have witnessed the lack of creativity in the mmorpg development space due to, again, not wanting to take risks.

     

    Let me repeat myself here, WoW has nothing to do with other games' problems.

    Thats why the post says "symbiotically linked to WoW" and "WoW's success" hurt the genre rather than WoW itself.


  • AmjocoAmjoco Member UncommonPosts: 4,860
    Originally posted by observer
    Originally posted by Darksworm
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by ArtificeVenatus
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Darksworm

     

    Guilds were having to put Plane of Time on a schedule with other guilds, forcing them to take sometimes 4-5x longer to gear up than possible because they had to share the zone with other guilds to be fair - especially when those other guilds raided in different time zones than they did.

    Monday - Guild A

    Wednesday - Guild B

    Friday - Guild C etc.

    Sometimes upwards of 5+ guilds were farming the zone.  So you're progressing at the rate of 1 raid per week there when you should be doing 2-3 raids per week there, and you're now farming for alts and boxes in elemental planes cause no one in your guild needs it (which, BTW, is also on a rotation... for the same reasons).

    This is why they went to instances in Gates of Discord.  Quality of Life, for their players.

    The only reason why people liked the Open World raid content in EQ, was because it made it easy for top guilds to farm content on spawn and basically keep guilds under them from progressing (and eventually passing them, in some cases).

    EQ wasn't a PvP game, where... you'd want it to be Open World so that you could fight other players over it.  People abused the open content to grief others, especially on servers like Antonia Bayle where there were top Euro and US guilds, and one guild had i.e. Solusek Ro spawning on their time zone and would kill it on spawn to prevent the other guild from getting into the Elemental Planes.

    Yup, and that is touted as "golden years of MMOs"

    Once has to wonder - what are they smoking :)

    Instead of instancing raids, could it be possible to make the zones scan, register and scale content based on who is in them these days (I am fairly certain the technology would not have handled them back then)? Wouldn't it then be possible to have truly MMO-EPIC raid battles if multiple guilds showed up, and yet a typical raid if 1 guild showed up, and typical one-raid party worth of content to make certain groups would have a hell of a time attempting such content (or even more content if more groups showed attempting to trick the system)? I am guessing in this day and age, the answer is likely yes, so long as the MMORPG does not go with quite top of the line graphics and audio.

    GW2 has already done it. But you have to be in on the development of MMOs, not lamenting 15 years ago all day.

    GW2 scales character levels down to content level, it does not scale zones to player populations and average player levels.

    So before you insult others, and try to make GW2 look like some hallmark of innovation (which it is not, at least not IMO), get the facts straight ;-)

    GW2 Dynamic Events are not much different than the rifts in Rift, IMO, except the Rifts in Rift were a bit more entertaining...  at east for the first week or so then they got just as annoying as the dynamic events in GW2 (because they aren't all that dynamic :-( ).

    Rift events were more static though.  They were pretty much like Warhammer's Public Quest system.  It's been so long since i played either though, so this is just a generalization.  GW2 events are more dynamic from what i remember, even if it is a fail/succeed, rotational type of system.  Certain places and bosses become locked or inaccessible if an event fails, and some vendors, and points of interests also become locked too.  It's a lot more dynamic than people give it credit for.

    And to add, GW2s DE are much more original in that they aren't all designed alike. Rifts rifts and invasions were fun but very predictable, and Wars were all the same as well.

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719

    Funny how people are always blaming the popular MMO if it's not their type of game. No one was brainwashed into liking WOW, players just did. And it became a pop culture phenomenom.

     

    If you're going to blame anyone, blame the corporate mentality of those that came after and designed games to try to cash in on WOW's popularity - the imitators not the original.

     

    I hate mobas but it's undeniable that it hits the spot with a lot of players these days. I play other things that I like but I have zero desire for the rest of the world to see the "error of their ways" and be converted to my taste in games.

     

    Despite all the shit out there that I have no desire to play, I've managed to enjoy computer games and play them since I bought my first Atari computer in 1980.

     

    But I guess, play and let play is just too foreign a concept for some. 

    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Amjoco
    Originally posted by observer
    Originally posted by Darksworm
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by ArtificeVenatus
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Darksworm

     

    Guilds were having to put Plane of Time on a schedule with other guilds, forcing them to take sometimes 4-5x longer to gear up than possible because they had to share the zone with other guilds to be fair - especially when those other guilds raided in different time zones than they did.

    Monday - Guild A

    Wednesday - Guild B

    Friday - Guild C etc.

    Sometimes upwards of 5+ guilds were farming the zone.  So you're progressing at the rate of 1 raid per week there when you should be doing 2-3 raids per week there, and you're now farming for alts and boxes in elemental planes cause no one in your guild needs it (which, BTW, is also on a rotation... for the same reasons).

    This is why they went to instances in Gates of Discord.  Quality of Life, for their players.

    The only reason why people liked the Open World raid content in EQ, was because it made it easy for top guilds to farm content on spawn and basically keep guilds under them from progressing (and eventually passing them, in some cases).

    EQ wasn't a PvP game, where... you'd want it to be Open World so that you could fight other players over it.  People abused the open content to grief others, especially on servers like Antonia Bayle where there were top Euro and US guilds, and one guild had i.e. Solusek Ro spawning on their time zone and would kill it on spawn to prevent the other guild from getting into the Elemental Planes.

    Yup, and that is touted as "golden years of MMOs"

    Once has to wonder - what are they smoking :)

    Instead of instancing raids, could it be possible to make the zones scan, register and scale content based on who is in them these days (I am fairly certain the technology would not have handled them back then)? Wouldn't it then be possible to have truly MMO-EPIC raid battles if multiple guilds showed up, and yet a typical raid if 1 guild showed up, and typical one-raid party worth of content to make certain groups would have a hell of a time attempting such content (or even more content if more groups showed attempting to trick the system)? I am guessing in this day and age, the answer is likely yes, so long as the MMORPG does not go with quite top of the line graphics and audio.

    GW2 has already done it. But you have to be in on the development of MMOs, not lamenting 15 years ago all day.

    GW2 scales character levels down to content level, it does not scale zones to player populations and average player levels.

    So before you insult others, and try to make GW2 look like some hallmark of innovation (which it is not, at least not IMO), get the facts straight ;-)

    GW2 Dynamic Events are not much different than the rifts in Rift, IMO, except the Rifts in Rift were a bit more entertaining...  at east for the first week or so then they got just as annoying as the dynamic events in GW2 (because they aren't all that dynamic :-( ).

    Rift events were more static though.  They were pretty much like Warhammer's Public Quest system.  It's been so long since i played either though, so this is just a generalization.  GW2 events are more dynamic from what i remember, even if it is a fail/succeed, rotational type of system.  Certain places and bosses become locked or inaccessible if an event fails, and some vendors, and points of interests also become locked too.  It's a lot more dynamic than people give it credit for.

    And to add, GW2s DE are much more original in that they aren't all designed alike. Rifts rifts and invasions were fun but very predictable, and Wars were all the same as well.

    Its quite different thing to design "traditional" MMO and then tuck on something like rifts/invasions than having actual zone design around dynamic events.

    Also i would say people claiming otherwise never made it to Orr.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    Originally posted by Cecropia
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Actually ldon only came our 1 year before wow. :)

    Haha Great pic.  I was just responding to the person above me that seemed to make a point and even put stars or quotations around the word "Years" when stating that Lost Dungeons of Norrath came out "years" before Wow.

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • GestankfaustGestankfaust Member UncommonPosts: 1,989
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    While I applaud the effort, the fundamental basis for the argument is wrong.

    WoW didn't do anything to kill the MMORPG genre. Quite the opposite really.

    The real damage came from the shills trying to chase Blizzard's success by releasing unfinished, fundamentally flawed WoW clone + twist games.

    Let WoW be WoW, to the gamers that want that kind of game and enjoy it - great! Have it it.

    You want to compete with WoW?

    Offer me something different. 

    Something I can't get in WoW.

    Not something that just simply isn't as good as WoW.

     

    Sorry to beat up your entire well thought out and written paper in about 100 words.

    WoW doesn't have the worst community. It does have one of the largest and most diverse, and in that diversity there will be the good and the bad. The actual game design itself promotes both the positive and the negative, but that is more on the individual than anything else.

    You can't blame WoW for society, and for gamers as a whole.

    ^This

     

    Yet the pages increase....

    "This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."

  • CymorilCymoril Member UncommonPosts: 16

    I hated WoW (pre BC and BC). I have been playing MMOs since UO (Great Lakes server) and DAoC. I couldn't stand the Asian type xp grind and the anti social behavior it promoted with "sorry I don't want to group, I lose XP." UO was one of the originators that people laughed at for having a sub in a time NO one thought it would be a success. For that, I give it props and each time they decided (the devs) to nerf a weapon, any still left in the world on peoples packs wouldn't get hit with the nerf bat, just those created afterwards thus creating a "epic" type weapon before its time.

                                                                   Grouping Then and Now

    I had a group that I would sometimes run with but hated the solo aspect of UO as well but loved putting a stack of pennies on a key or it to macro my skills. When I got into DAoC I loved the thrill of the xp groups which were long, but they were GROUPS. So you got to kill and socialize until they groups either tired of each others personalities, time zones, or exhaustion. The MMO market was still fairly new and friendly.

    PvP

    In UO it was brutal- I hated it but understood its nature, so I stayed out of it and was a PKers fence and sold his weapons for a cut out of my shoppe. In DAoC it was carebear in comparison, you died and they get "realm points" the hook if you will- and you didn't get your body looted or have to come back to it as a ghost and each realms named similar class wasn't so similar. So, when you grew bored of 1 realm you could play the others and learn their strength and weaknesses.

    WOW destroyed the communities that I enjoyed, or enjoyed to hate the people in for whatever reason with the "solo" til your 50 and we might invite you into our PVE group if you get a gear score of whatever. That promoted an anti social behavior for me as well as the PVE dances you had to learn for the boss fights and limited PvP at that time. I eventually learned different dungeons but all the classes were the same (watered down) among the realms/factions. They did have racial perks but that wasn't enough to hook me and the PvP was so pathetic back then for WoW. 1 factions level 50s would sit in the other factions starter zones and be asshats. Battlegrounds came along but then some watered down idea of "capture the flag". Which was apathetic attempt from the devs for my tastes. I was used too an open world pvp zone whoever had the largest number wins, or lags out the other realm (back then video cards weren't like today.)

    The only thing that kept me hooked for 6 months in WoW was the ability to MOD your game. I think at one time I had 100+ mods running. I always wanted to push my game and make it as easy as possible when soloing to know where to hand in my quests the fastest. I wasn't interested in leveling any more toons on WoW and the post classes since in their expansions haven't appealed to me.

    I have tried to go back to DAoC with some entertainment for a short time but I left that game cause I felt EA/Mythic was promising a lot and cashing in and not delievering. Their dev teams were small or the corporate stiffs decided to make as much as they can and dump the game- which they did eventually. WOWs Dev team has been one that I have admired for years but no other team has been able to compare to them in my opinion. EVE might, but I never had an interest for space mmos at the time and 10+ years later not starting from scratch.

     

    In closing they did some good, but ruined the communities I played in/around but push the envelope on tech for games. 

  • TibernicuspaTibernicuspa Member UncommonPosts: 1,199
    In this thread: a bunch of people who never played pre WoW MMOs claiming that they all suffered from the design flaws of EverQuest, despite MMORPGs being all radically different from each other at the time.
  • observerobserver Member RarePosts: 3,685
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    In this thread: a bunch of people who never played pre WoW MMOs claiming that they all suffered from the design flaws of EverQuest, despite MMORPGs being all radically different from each other at the time.

    It's sort of like people comparing newer MMO's to WoW, and claiming they are still WoW clones, such as Tera, GW2, TSW, AA, ESO, etc..  But nah, WoW is "destructive" to the genre.

  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236
    edited September 2015
     
    Post edited by ArtificeVenatus on
  • MultibyteMultibyte Member UncommonPosts: 130
    Imo, WoW, especially starting with the period after the release of LFG in late WotLK, paved the way to anti-social and anti-rpg gameplay. Whether the other developers deserve to be bashed for following that way, as opposed to being original, doesn't change that.
  • WaterlilyWaterlily Member UncommonPosts: 3,105

    WoW catered to the lowest common denominator

    *it removed heavy death penalties

    *it removed corpse runs

    *it removed hell levels

    *it made sure every class could solo

    *it put an invisible leash on every mob, so mobs couldn't run or train anymore

    *it made raids smaller so you didn't need so many people anymore

    *it removed slow travel

    *it added dungeon finders and automated grouping so the social barrier was removed and you no longer needed to interact with others

    *it removed pulling and made CC less important, making it easier for groups

    *it increased the defense of non-tank classes so they could take a hit easier

    *it color coded items so you didn't have to find out what AC did on your own anymore

    *it made gear resets faster

    *it removed grinding mobs in favor of doing quests

    *it made trading more accessible

    *it added offline trading, you could now log out and trade offline through the AH

     

    Basicaly, WoW took everything that was hard or time consuming about EQ, and threw it out the window. That's what attracted so many people to WoW, anyone could play it, anyone could raid, and all timesinks were removed.

     

  • ArtificeVenatusArtificeVenatus Member UncommonPosts: 1,236
    edited September 2015
     
    Post edited by ArtificeVenatus on
  • WaterlilyWaterlily Member UncommonPosts: 3,105
    Originally posted by ArtificeVenatus
    Originally posted by Waterlily

    WoW catered to the lowest common denominator

    *it removed heavy death penalties

    *it removed corpse runs

    *it removed hell levels

    *it made sure every class could solo

    *it made raids smaller so you didn't need so many people anymore

    *it removed slow travel

    *it removed pulling and made CC less important, making it easier for groups

    *it increased the defense of non-tank classes so they could take a hit easier

    *it color coded items so you didn't have to find out what AC did on your own anymore (how AC impacted damageand the DI was only discovered years after EQ's launch)

    *it made gear resets faster, in EQ a 4 year old raid item would still be extremely powerful compared to a top of the line group item, Blizzard reset gear much faster

    *it removed grinding mobs in favor of doing quests

    *it made trading more accessible

    *it added offline trading, you could now log out and trade offline through the AH

     

    Basicaly, WoW took everything that was hard about EQ, and threw it out the window. That's what attracted so many people to WoW, anyone could play it, anyone could raid, and all timesinks were removed...

    ...and the 2 greatest ironies...

     

    image *drum roll* image

     

    Playing any game is meant as a timesink, in and of itself, let alone any MMORPG...

     

    Watching TV with a remote control with buttons to push, is probably just as challenging (so why not watch TV?)...

    I don't experience timesinks as something negative, the time I spent in MMO is the same, the timesinks make the game slower.

    It gives players an opportunity to talk to one another.

    I'd rather walk in a forest with friends at slow speed, than sit alone in a jumbo jet without anyone talking. The time I spent with friends is more valuable to me.

    If there's anything I find unpleasant about MMO now, it's people's desire to get to endgame as fast as possible, their need to rush through the game without being capable of enjoying it or socializing with others. That's a consequence of making the pace of the game faster. I never felt like I needed to rush somewhere in Everquest, there was nowhere to go fast.

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