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The Destructive Legacy of WoW

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  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,035
    Originally posted by ArtificeVenatus
    Originally posted by MassAuthority

    -stuff-

     

    http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016417/-100-000-Whales-An

    OMG I watched that. I was floored so much money no wonder they make the games the way they do. Oh please ,please do not let the Western player market become like this. That was a horror show.

  • ClassicstarClassicstar Member UncommonPosts: 2,697


    Originally posted by Dullahan
    At the end of 2014, Blizzard Entertainment celebrated the 10th anniversary of World of Warcraft. There can be no doubt that WoW is a juggernaut that changed how we play and how we think about virtual worlds and MMORPGs.

    But not all change is beneficial and not all success is healthy.

    Amid the accolades and self-congratulatory celebrations going on there is unreported dark side to the triumph of WoW and it has come at a high price. It is this: the fantasy MMORPG that some of us used to know and love has all but evaporated and turned from an experience rich with social interaction into one devoid of it.

    As WoW has systematically obliterated every MMORPG that came before it, the fate of the entire genre is now symbiotically linked to WoW. Look at your average MMO today and chances are it’s just another WoW clone with a different skin, story and setting.

    Just as a rising tide lifts all ships, the reverse is also true. This essay will attempt to explain the destructive legacy of WoW and in particular how Blizzard caused the widespread decline of social interaction in MMORPGs.

    More at http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-destructive-legacy-of-blizzards-world-of-warcraft/

    Article by Wolfshead

     

    Has the success of WoW destroyed the genre you loved, or improved it?


    It was main reason why i only play solo games.

    WoW in the long run is disaster for whole genre total distruction of hardcore and sandbox as i know it before WoW.

    I know it won´t help saying this im nich very small group that see this and actually stop playing mmo´s for this reason.

    And ive tested this over period of more then 10 years so i know what im talking about.

    Darkfall 1 was for me biggest example how distructive WoW mentality and wow mind set was and infiltrated in sandbox games and totally destroyed it because of ex wow players.

    Ive maybe spent 50 bucks in past 7 years because of decline and wow influence.

    Blackest year in history of MMO´S was 2004 when wow was launched and destroyed whole genre.

    Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!

    MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
    CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
    GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
    MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
    PSU:Corsair AX1200i
    OS:Windows 10 64bit

  • f0dell54f0dell54 Member CommonPosts: 329
    Originally posted by Classicstar

     


    Originally posted by Dullahan
    At the end of 2014, Blizzard Entertainment celebrated the 10th anniversary of World of Warcraft. There can be no doubt that WoW is a juggernaut that changed how we play and how we think about virtual worlds and MMORPGs.

     

    But not all change is beneficial and not all success is healthy.

    Amid the accolades and self-congratulatory celebrations going on there is unreported dark side to the triumph of WoW and it has come at a high price. It is this: the fantasy MMORPG that some of us used to know and love has all but evaporated and turned from an experience rich with social interaction into one devoid of it.

    As WoW has systematically obliterated every MMORPG that came before it, the fate of the entire genre is now symbiotically linked to WoW. Look at your average MMO today and chances are it’s just another WoW clone with a different skin, story and setting.

    Just as a rising tide lifts all ships, the reverse is also true. This essay will attempt to explain the destructive legacy of WoW and in particular how Blizzard caused the widespread decline of social interaction in MMORPGs.

    More at http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-destructive-legacy-of-blizzards-world-of-warcraft/

    Article by Wolfshead

     

    Has the success of WoW destroyed the genre you loved, or improved it?


    It was main reason why i only play solo games.

     

    WoW in the long run is disaster for whole genre total distruction of hardcore and sandbox as i know it before WoW.

    I know it won´t help saying this im nich very small group that see this and actually stop playing mmo´s for this reason.

    And ive tested this over period of more then 10 years so i know what im talking about.

    Darkfall 1 was for me biggest example how distructive WoW mentality and wow mind set was and infiltrated in sandbox games and totally destroyed it because of ex wow players.

    Ive maybe spent 50 bucks in past 7 years because of decline and wow influence.

    Blackest year in history of MMO´S was 2004 when wow was launched and destroyed whole genre.

    lol

  • observerobserver Member RarePosts: 3,685
    Originally posted by Classicstar

     


    Originally posted by Dullahan
    At the end of 2014, Blizzard Entertainment celebrated the 10th anniversary of World of Warcraft. There can be no doubt that WoW is a juggernaut that changed how we play and how we think about virtual worlds and MMORPGs.

     

    But not all change is beneficial and not all success is healthy.

    Amid the accolades and self-congratulatory celebrations going on there is unreported dark side to the triumph of WoW and it has come at a high price. It is this: the fantasy MMORPG that some of us used to know and love has all but evaporated and turned from an experience rich with social interaction into one devoid of it.

    As WoW has systematically obliterated every MMORPG that came before it, the fate of the entire genre is now symbiotically linked to WoW. Look at your average MMO today and chances are it’s just another WoW clone with a different skin, story and setting.

    Just as a rising tide lifts all ships, the reverse is also true. This essay will attempt to explain the destructive legacy of WoW and in particular how Blizzard caused the widespread decline of social interaction in MMORPGs.

    More at http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-destructive-legacy-of-blizzards-world-of-warcraft/

    Article by Wolfshead

     

    Has the success of WoW destroyed the genre you loved, or improved it?


    It was main reason why i only play solo games.

     

    WoW in the long run is disaster for whole genre total distruction of hardcore and sandbox as i know it before WoW.

    I know it won´t help saying this im nich very small group that see this and actually stop playing mmo´s for this reason.

    And ive tested this over period of more then 10 years so i know what im talking about.

    Darkfall 1 was for me biggest example how distructive WoW mentality and wow mind set was and infiltrated in sandbox games and totally destroyed it because of ex wow players.

    Ive maybe spent 50 bucks in past 7 years because of decline and wow influence.

    Blackest year in history of MMO´S was 2004 when wow was launched and destroyed whole genre.

    I really hope that was sarcasm.  Hardcore and Sandbox MMO's didn't fail because of WoW.  That's being delusional.  image

  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 3,026
    Originally posted by kitarad
    Originally posted by ArtificeVenatus
    Originally posted by MassAuthority

    -stuff-

     

    http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016417/-100-000-Whales-An

    OMG I watched that. I was floored so much money no wonder they make the games the way they do. Oh please ,please do not let the Western player market become like this. That was a horror show.

    That is EXACTLY what happened already to the mmorpg: big business focusing game development on cash flow models. It is the cause of the "Wow-clone" era. 

     

    This video is the next step of the conversion to this model. They now are moving beyond simply developing for mass markets and now finding ways to integrate f2p cash models into it. Mid to Hardcore audience means this: Those willing to throw money at a game. They are planning for ways to strip the most money from those willing to pay.

     

    What does this do to gaming? It completely destroys it. 

     

    We already see the big companies moving away from mmos. They will only make them if the f2p model proves it pulls in enough money to warrant it's development ... and they are cancelling and no longer planning mmos for many of them. Blizzard has left the mmo industry and most here fail to see it. They jumped on the card game craze ... small investment for large returns. They are moving toward MOBA and FPS as well.

     

    What will save all of us from this trend? Western market identity. Simply put the western market IS different than eastern markets. It is heavily console influenced along with a long history of PC gaming. Western markets care more about equality in gaming and is not based on a rip off society with terrible copy right laws. Even if large companies move toward this model more and more the differences between the cultures will ensure indie development and niche market successes will occur ... at least for the short term before we trend more and more toward an oligarchy. Hopefully small business is preserved somehow. For now it does not look good.

     

    What can we do? This has moved far beyond personal choice in gaming. The games we once played are no longer being made because of this business strategy. Targeting markets to profit no longer exists for large business. They target profit regardless of market. This means they no longer follow the supply and demand model ... which is the ONLY model that allows for true variety in gaming. We now MUST boycott this practice and become more and more political in our stance. 

     

    I boycott P2W games. I will not buy or play them. 

    I boycott mmos with gambling components. Even games I played a lot I refuse to play and contribute cash such as Swtor.

    I am vocal about this issue to the point of being called "jaded old school player". I am fine with that because it only exposes the ignorance of the name caller. I will continue to try and educate them to what is happening to our video game industry. 

     

    WATCH this video people. Pay attention to what they are trying to do and what is already taking place in our western market. You will see that MOST games are already taking on many of these practices. It complete reshapes the game itself and industry itself. All this bitching about P2W on these forums is merely (as stated CLEARLY in this video) looked upon as initial implementation failures of F2P/P2W. Do they listen to you and abandon this model? NO! They reshape and disguise how it is implemented until you drink the Kool-Aid and accept it. There is no way to combat this other than boycotting and being vocal! I cannot be more clear on this.

     

    Our industry is going to be a disgrace within 5 years. The only games offering consumer choice will be indie game development and the consumer is going to have to directly contribute to it. This is why indie game development is how largely crowdfunded. It is directly a result of where the industry headed and has been heading for years now.

     

    There is something simply many people are forgetting here. It is what a "game" is. This is what it actually defined as:

     

    "A competitive, activity involving skill, chance, or endurance on part of two or more persons who play according to a set of rules."

     

    It is all really simply. It is why the original subscription formula was implemented ... to be fair and equal to all players (the best option for business? Perhaps not but the if reflects the core principles of gaming and what sort of game was being made). The very basic concept of gaming is destroyed the instant even one player is deemed less than another. The new trend to F2P in western markets will kill the concept of a "game". The speaker said  this model fails when western players identity F2P/P2W as the game playing you. The telling tale identifying the direction the industry is taking is this speaker solving this problem not by abandoning the approach but instead finding ways to change and disguise it until the market accepts it.

     

    This SHOULD scare the shit out of people. It if doesn't, they need to educate themselves.

    You stay sassy!

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,322
    Originally posted by Tamanous

     

     

    That is EXACTLY what happened already to the mmorpg: big business focusing game development on cash flow models. It is the cause of the "Wow-clone" era. 

     

    This video is the next step of the conversion to this model. They now are moving beyond simply developing for mass markets and now finding ways to integrate f2p cash models into it. Mid to Hardcore audience means this: Those willing to throw money at a game. They are planning for ways to strip the most money from those willing to pay.

     

    This SHOULD scare the shit out of people. It if doesn't, they need to educate themselves.

    I wouldn't be that worried about it.

    There is a lot that he is saying, and admitting, that is cultural.

    Businesses are always about making money, even if it's enough money to keep going. However, developers have to know their market.

    While people are always going to be willing to spend money on what they want, my sense is that most westerners don't like spending money in the way that gentleman was talking about.

    If this worked here you would already see those specific manifestations in every game. And why not? If it worked then regardless of your naysayers you would be making 8 to 20+ million per month. But again, we don't really see that here in most games.

    As he said, certain things just didn't work here.

    I've heard this GDC talk before and remember mentioning it to a girlfriend of mine (who is chinese) and she just laughed and said "yup, we're all about the money. Why do you think we use Red Envelopes so much!".

     

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  • AlverantAlverant Member RarePosts: 1,326

    The only "destructive" legacy of WoW involves its popularity.

     

    When a new MMO comes out people will ohhh and ahhh about it and some will even play it for a while. Others don't want to leave behind all their friends WoW and give up the years spent there. After a few months when the newness has worn off and the free subscription is up/they PLed to max level then many of those players will go back to WoW because they miss their friends and times they had there.

     

    Like it or not, to many people WoW is home and any other game will be but a distraction or vacation. Most of those who leave either come back or quit MMOs entirely that leaves the other games scrambling over the small fraction of players who really are ready to move onto a new game.

     

    (The same can be said of EVE.)

     

    I can't say if anyone is really at fault or that this is wrong, it's just how it is. Most MMO players are part of the big games and won't switch permanently for a new game. The only thing that can change that is for WoW to shut down. I got a feeling that will spark the kinds of riots only seen for sports playoffs except world-wide and all at once.

  • reeereeereeereee Member UncommonPosts: 1,636
    Originally posted by Tamanous
    Originally posted by kitarad
    Originally posted by ArtificeVenatus
    Originally posted by MassAuthority

    -stuff-

     

    http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016417/-100-000-Whales-An

    OMG I watched that. I was floored so much money no wonder they make the games the way they do. Oh please ,please do not let the Western player market become like this. That was a horror show.

    What will save all of us from this trend? Western market identity. Simply put the western market IS different than eastern markets. It is heavily console influenced along with a long history of PC gaming. Western markets care more about equality in gaming and is not based on a rip off society with terrible copy right laws. Even if large companies move toward this model more and more the differences between the cultures will ensure indie development and niche market successes will occur ... at least for the short term before we trend more and more toward an oligarchy. Hopefully small business is preserved somehow. For now it does not look good.

     

    This has to be one of the saddest paragraphs I've ever read.  What world are you living in where Western values means anything other than win at any cost and corporate greed?  Western developers would hop on this train in a minute if they could make it work, and the reason it doesn't work in the West has nothing to do with Western values.

     

    What prevents this from happening in the West and why no one here really needs to worry about this is because there is no way to scale up the model.  This model works because the games are unbelievably cheep to make.  There is no way to use this model on a $300 million AAA MMO, and that's what these cheep browser games have to compete against in the West.  You should have been able to tell from the talk that he considers games like Farmville far more to be his competition than WoW.

     

    Note that the primary bulwark against the F2P model comes out of Japan not the West in the form of FFXIV.  It's the only game since WoW's ascendancy to really make the model work.  If not for FFXIV you could really make a case for the P2P model being a thing of the past that only works for WoW and a handful of other older games.

  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn Member EpicPosts: 3,430
    Holy cow are U a doom and gloom kinda guy.  I would say that WoW has some negative and positive elements too it.  It is hardly the 666 of MMOs.  It broadened the appeal of MMOs, which in turn has pumped a lot of money into the genre and given many people countless hours of enjoyment.  I would argue that it did move things into a more benign genre in terms of reward v. consequence which is a net negative for me, albeit not one I would fall on my sword for.  On the other hand, I would say that the increased amount of investment it brought into the genre led to significant development of capabilities (In terms of graphics, mechanics, etc) of MMOs.  I have no imperical basis for the last statement, but it seems logical to me.

    I self identify as a monkey.

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    You would be mistaken, wow only cost 50 mil to make I think, and blizzard invest less per pound paid by their customers than any other aaa mmorpg. On the positive, early wow showed the way into the genre for other publishers which was a good thing.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 3,026
    Originally posted by reeereee
    Originally posted by Tamanous
    Originally posted by kitarad
    Originally posted by ArtificeVenatus
    Originally posted by MassAuthority

    -stuff-

     

    http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016417/-100-000-Whales-An

    OMG I watched that. I was floored so much money no wonder they make the games the way they do. Oh please ,please do not let the Western player market become like this. That was a horror show.

    What will save all of us from this trend? Western market identity. Simply put the western market IS different than eastern markets. It is heavily console influenced along with a long history of PC gaming. Western markets care more about equality in gaming and is not based on a rip off society with terrible copy right laws. Even if large companies move toward this model more and more the differences between the cultures will ensure indie development and niche market successes will occur ... at least for the short term before we trend more and more toward an oligarchy. Hopefully small business is preserved somehow. For now it does not look good.

     

    This has to be one of the saddest paragraphs I've ever read.  What world are you living in where Western values means anything other than win at any cost and corporate greed?  Western developers would hop on this train in a minute if they could make it work, and the reason it doesn't work in the West has nothing to do with Western values.

     

    What prevents this from happening in the West and why no one here really needs to worry about this is because there is no way to scale up the model.  This model works because the games are unbelievably cheep to make.  There is no way to use this model on a $300 million AAA MMO, and that's what these cheep browser games have to compete against in the West.  You should have been able to tell from the talk that he considers games like Farmville far more to be his competition than WoW.

     

    Note that the primary bulwark against the F2P model comes out of Japan not the West in the form of FFXIV.  It's the only game since WoW's ascendancy to really make the model work.  If not for FFXIV you could really make a case for the P2P model being a thing of the past that only works for WoW and a handful of other older games.

    It is not the exact model we are talking about here in relation to mmo. It is the adaptation of it where fits. This starts with f2p conversion ... which normally resolved very clear issues such as barriers to the game caused by subs. This is not the main reason for it's implementation however. What drives this conversion is profit. A game can easily profit form a sub model and is proven with still successful sub models on the market. Sadly man of those continue to add f2p features whether it is required for success or not. FFXIV only proves this point (if being a themepark clone even allows a point other than this model has already proven it can make money). An mmo can easily profit from subscription only yet this fact does not stop developers from converting entire games into f2p models. Even B2P games provide a means for cash to be spent above and beyond the limit of a subscription fee. 

     

    However my point is not to point out the differences in cash models. It is the fact that the games themselves change from the ground up in order to be more easily monetized. Pay walls and barriers to progresson and progression rates become introduced outside of game play itself. Marketing focus changes how the game is played as games both in creation and live as companies shift their target audience to focus on who likely spends the most cash. Nearly every single major mmo today is doing this.

     

    What I say is not doom and gloom. It is fact. Whether it is doom or gloom is entirely dependent upon your point of view. Do you like the spectrum of games being put out currently by major developers? Do you enjoy jumping from genre to genre as the game spectrum shifts from one market focus to another? Are you annoyed by companies abandoning the very games that built their company as they continually shift focus based on market trends and cash flow models? Does equality in gaming matter to you within the type of game you play? Are you ok with the fact that you WILL grow out of the market group current games target and the industry will offer you few options as alternatives to what big developers push out?

     

    I only speak of the spectrum of products produced by larger western developers which in the last very few years have already drastically changed their development focus. The power of the western consumer and and differences in business culture will preserve some variety of product ... but don't expect originality. The one great difference in western markets that at least breaths life into the "art" of game making is that small business is allowed to cultivate new ideas ... then big business buys up what succeeds and converts it into cash flow models. 

     

    What I talk about is preserving the very process that allows for new ideas to grow and for those ideas to persist. The current publishing landscape however kills these ideas and concepts. It corrupts them through maximizing profit by broadening the scope of the target audience and finding ways to pull in more cash once that audience reaches it's limit. This is what we should worry about because it WILL happen to the product you once loved which the entire point of this entire thread with specific relation to Wow.

     

    It flabbergasts me to hear responses that brush off this topic as paranoia when this very industry progression has impacted nearly every mmo on the market today. These changes can be the smallest integration of the model through major conversions that all but change the original game.

     

    If you headed back 10 years (evidently far too long a time for many here to grasp or such ignorance would not formulate into text) would you even have dreamt the following:

    - You could play an entire end game of an mmo simply by standing in one spot and queuing for instanced mini-games?

    - You could pay cash for a max level character?

    - You could pay cash for gear, mounts and nearly anything in game.

    - You could level faster than others by throwing money above and beyond a sub fee at the developers?

    - Entire game worlds that were created for the soul purpose of emulating realism could be bypassed by instant travel, instant group making, complete solo paths to leveling and every convenience that makes the game completely unreal rather than real?

    - Cash shops, real money gambling, in game currency converted from real world cash.

     

    I will tell you that every single player of 1st gen mmorpgs would shit a brick knowing what the future held for them and their games. You see and experience all of this and STILL have the nerve to say this trend is not happening? Are you out of your fucking minds?

    You stay sassy!

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Tamanous

     

     

    That is EXACTLY what happened already to the mmorpg: big business focusing game development on cash flow models. It is the cause of the "Wow-clone" era. 

     

    This video is the next step of the conversion to this model. They now are moving beyond simply developing for mass markets and now finding ways to integrate f2p cash models into it. Mid to Hardcore audience means this: Those willing to throw money at a game. They are planning for ways to strip the most money from those willing to pay.

     

    This SHOULD scare the shit out of people. It if doesn't, they need to educate themselves.

    I wouldn't be that worried about it.

    There is a lot that he is saying, and admitting, that is cultural.

    Businesses are always about making money, even if it's enough money to keep going. However, developers have to know their market.

    While people are always going to be willing to spend money on what they want, my sense is that most westerners don't like spending money in the way that gentleman was talking about.

    If this worked here you would already see those specific manifestations in every game. And why not? If it worked then regardless of your naysayers you would be making 8 to 20+ million per month. But again, we don't really see that here in most games.

    As he said, certain things just didn't work here.

    I've heard this GDC talk before and remember mentioning it to a girlfriend of mine (who is chinese) and she just laughed and said "yup, we're all about the money. Why do you think we use Red Envelopes so much!".

     

    People dont realize how companies have to change even their core philosophies when going to other markets.

    P2W didnt work in the west. It still doesnt. Its funny really, west is all communist and east all capitalist about this :)

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Originally posted by Tamanous
    Originally posted by reeereee
    Originally posted by Tamanous
    Originally posted by kitarad
    Originally posted by ArtificeVenatus
    Originally posted by MassAuthority

    -stuff-

     

    http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016417/-100-000-Whales-An

    OMG I watched that. I was floored so much money no wonder they make the games the way they do. Oh please ,please do not let the Western player market become like this. That was a horror show.

    What will save all of us from this trend? Western market identity. Simply put the western market IS different than eastern markets. It is heavily console influenced along with a long history of PC gaming. Western markets care more about equality in gaming and is not based on a rip off society with terrible copy right laws. Even if large companies move toward this model more and more the differences between the cultures will ensure indie development and niche market successes will occur ... at least for the short term before we trend more and more toward an oligarchy. Hopefully small business is preserved somehow. For now it does not look good.

     

    This has to be one of the saddest paragraphs I've ever read.  What world are you living in where Western values means anything other than win at any cost and corporate greed?  Western developers would hop on this train in a minute if they could make it work, and the reason it doesn't work in the West has nothing to do with Western values.

     

    What prevents this from happening in the West and why no one here really needs to worry about this is because there is no way to scale up the model.  This model works because the games are unbelievably cheep to make.  There is no way to use this model on a $300 million AAA MMO, and that's what these cheep browser games have to compete against in the West.  You should have been able to tell from the talk that he considers games like Farmville far more to be his competition than WoW.

     

    Note that the primary bulwark against the F2P model comes out of Japan not the West in the form of FFXIV.  It's the only game since WoW's ascendancy to really make the model work.  If not for FFXIV you could really make a case for the P2P model being a thing of the past that only works for WoW and a handful of other older games.

    It is not the exact model we are talking about here in relation to mmo. It is the adaptation of it where fits. This starts with f2p conversion ... which normally resolved very clear issues such as barriers to the game caused by subs. This is not the main reason for it's implementation however. What drives this conversion is profit. A game can easily profit form a sub model and is proven with still successful sub models on the market. Sadly man of those continue to add f2p features whether it is required for success or not. FFXIV only proves this point (if being a themepark clone even allows a point other than this model has already proven it can make money). An mmo can easily profit from subscription only yet this fact does not stop developers from converting entire games into f2p models. Even B2P games provide a means for cash to be spent above and beyond the limit of a subscription fee. 

     

    However my point is not to point out the differences in cash models. It is the fact that the games themselves change from the ground up in order to be more easily monetized. Pay walls and barriers to progresson and progression rates become introduced outside of game play itself. Marketing focus changes how the game is played as games both in creation and live as companies shift their target audience to focus on who likely spends the most cash. Nearly every single major mmo today is doing this.

     

    What I say is not doom and gloom. It is fact. Whether it is doom or gloom is entirely dependent upon your point of view. Do you like the spectrum of games being put out currently by major developers? Do you enjoy jumping from genre to genre as the game spectrum shifts from one market focus to another? Are you annoyed by companies abandoning the very games that built their company as they continually shift focus based on market trends and cash flow models? Does equality in gaming matter to you within the type of game you play? Are you ok with the fact that you WILL grow out of the market group current games target and the industry will offer you few options as alternatives to what big developers push out?

     

    I only speak of the spectrum of products produced by larger western developers which in the last very few years have already drastically changed their development focus. The power of the western consumer and and differences in business culture will preserve some variety of product ... but don't expect originality. The one great difference in western markets that at least breaths life into the "art" of game making is that small business is allowed to cultivate new ideas ... then big business buys up what succeeds and converts it into cash flow models. 

     

    What I talk about is preserving the very process that allows for new ideas to grow and for those ideas to persist. The current publishing landscape however kills these ideas and concepts. It corrupts them through maximizing profit by broadening the scope of the target audience and finding ways to pull in more cash once that audience reaches it's limit. This is what we should worry about because it WILL happen to the product you once loved which the entire point of this entire thread with specific relation to Wow.

     

    It flabbergasts me to hear responses that brush off this topic as paranoia when this very industry progression has impacted nearly every mmo on the market today. These changes can be the smallest integration of the model through major conversions that all but change the original game.

     

    If you headed back 10 years (evidently far too long a time for many here to grasp or such ignorance would not formulate into text) would you even have dreamt the following:

    - You could play an entire end game of an mmo simply by standing in one spot and queuing for instanced mini-games?

    - You could pay cash for a max level character?

    - You could pay cash for gear, mounts and nearly anything in game.

    - You could level faster than others by throwing money above and beyond a sub fee at the developers?

    - Entire game worlds that were created for the soul purpose of emulating realism could be bypassed by instant travel, instant group making, complete solo paths to leveling and every convenience that makes the game completely unreal rather than real?

    - Cash shops, real money gambling, in game currency converted from real world cash.

     

    I will tell you that every single player of 1st gen mmorpgs would shit a brick knowing what the future held for them and their games. You see and experience all of this and STILL have the nerve to say this trend is not happening? Are you out of your fucking minds?

    +1000

     

    I will go ahead and admit that I have actually sold accounts before, in some of my favourite games. Not because I was doing it to make money, I just thought I was done with the game. Made a pretty penny off them, too. Probably not as much as I put in, but pretty good (like $300). So, yeah, there are dudes out there doing this, still. There were people doing it back then as a career (maybe not in the west, but in the east for sure). I don't know what that market is like now, but at the time it was booming. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • JohnP0100JohnP0100 Member UncommonPosts: 401

    During high school those who played 'MMOs' (pre-WoW) were picked on quite heavily. They were the 'losers' who couldn't find a date at the prom and was considered 'strange'.

    Contrast that to my high school reunion where saying you 'played MMOs' wasn't a big deal. There were still those who went 'huh?' but you can say 'that Southpark episode' and they politely nodded.

     

    If WoW's contribution means those who play MMOs aren't bullied at school, I'd say that overrules every complaint that 'MMOs are nothing but WoW-clones' entails.

    It shows what PvP games are really all about, and no, it's not about more realism and immersion. It's about cowards hiding behind a screen to they can bully other defenseless players without any risk of direct retaliation like there would be if they acted like asshats in "real life". -Jean-Luc_Picard

    Life itself is a game. So why shouldn't your game be ruined? - justmemyselfandi

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    You would be mistaken, wow only cost 50 mil to make I think, and blizzard invest less per pound paid by their customers than any other aaa mmorpg. On the positive, early wow showed the way into the genre for other publishers which was a good thing.

    iirc it was 60-80m. but thats just development.

    What would be amusing, would be to see the budget. That includes marketimg.

  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Member UncommonPosts: 1,985
    I have yet to see another mmo let us mod our UI like WoW did.


  • VigilianceVigiliance Member UncommonPosts: 213

    The biggest issue I had with WoW since playing from the beginning is just how their is no middle ground for game design philosophies.

     

    Take for example the social issues the Author states in the game. At some point (Whether through their own intention or from community feedback) the game was thought to be too "unfriendly" to solo players. Basically the designers wanted to make life in WoW more comfortable for people not grouping up and I can see why however they went TOO far.

    It seems all we understand are are extremes.

     

    In one corner you have Classic WoW where getting into a dungeon starts with making your own group via asking in general chat in your capitol cities, guild chats, and finally a /who list. The dungeon can take up several hours to complete and requires teamwork: communication,  coordination, and collaboration to be successful (assuming all individuals are doing their job correctly). All classes had some unique skills/attributes that provided a different benefit to the group as a whole even classes that could fulfill the same role. (Healers/tanks/Dps etc)

     

    In this corner you have Contemporary WoW, where you click a queue button, never have to speak a word to anyone else and wait. If your a healer or tank you'll have a near instant queue and once your in the dungeon it will take you at most 20 minutes. You don't have to talk or cooperate in any meaningful way.  One person can easily pick up the slack for another provided they have the right specializations. All classes within a given role are essentially the same and provide similar benefits.

     

    The problem is the design never really put much thought into the consequences of what happens when everyone can do the majority of the core game play on their own with little to no help from anyone else? How does that encourage a strong community? The desire for loot? 

     

    We all know how that plays out... Remember the term "Loot Ninja" or the jokes about the "huntard" class that needed on every item to such an extent that design automated the loot system by default.

     

    Where was the middle ground? Why couldn't we keep the group que system yet make the difficulty sufficient to promote teamwork, interactivity and communication?

     

     

  • Superman0XSuperman0X Member RarePosts: 2,292
    Originally posted by kitarad
    Originally posted by ArtificeVenatus
    Originally posted by MassAuthority

    -stuff-

     

    http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016417/-100-000-Whales-An

    OMG I watched that. I was floored so much money no wonder they make the games the way they do. Oh please ,please do not let the Western player market become like this. That was a horror show.

    This is a western market developer making a presentation for other western market developers at a western development conference. This is all about the western market (players).

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Lol awesome ^^

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,411
    Why would I want to be stuck in a dungeon for hours.
  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 3,026
    Originally posted by Horusra
    Why would I want to be stuck in a dungeon for hours.

    Entirely depends on how it is constructed and why you are there. There were games of old that were entirely based in massive dungeons and were quite fun. It was about exploration and challenge. You were allowed to even camp within it and hopefully finding a safe enough place to not die.

     

    Dungeons have been handled rather poorly in mmos over all. They are not required to be attached to progression and tiered gear. They can simply be an extension of regional lore, exploration and adventure for the sake of adventure. They can simply be fun ... or something avoided. Before the modern themepark mmo many mmorpgs had dozens and even hundreds of dungeons ... at launch! Developers did not care if 500 players entered one a day of just 1. They existed because they were part of the concept of the living world they were trying to make.

     

    The industry treated them differently for many reasons but largely eventually managed them as content meant to be repeated as may times as possible in order to shrink worlds into linear progression more easily developed and managed. The reason for their existence within the game changed and expectations were set especially for those who never experienced other dungeon options in other games that played very differently.

     

    So why would you want to be stuck in a dungeon for hours? It could be a simple as it is very fun while offering many different reasons for being there than what you may be accustomed to.

     

    I ask you this: Have you not ever seen old abandoned buildings, caves or even dark old growth forests when perhaps young, and had that urge to explore the unknown? If not or have lost this feeling then why?

    You stay sassy!

  • VigilianceVigiliance Member UncommonPosts: 213
    Originally posted by Tamanous
    Originally posted by Horusra
    Why would I want to be stuck in a dungeon for hours.

    Entirely depends on how it is constructed and why you are there. There were games of old that were entirely based in massive dungeons and were quite fun. It was about exploration and challenge. You were allowed to even camp within it and hopefully finding a safe enough place to not die.

     

    Dungeons have been handled rather poorly in mmos over all. They are not required to be attached to progression and tiered gear. They can simply be an extension of regional lore, exploration and adventure for the sake of adventure. They can simply be fun ... or something avoided. Before the modern themepark mmo many mmorpgs had dozens and even hundreds of dungeons ... at launch! Developers did not care if 500 players entered one a day of just 1. They existed because they were part of the concept of the living world they were trying to make.

     

    The industry treated them differently for many reasons but largely eventually managed them as content meant to be repeated as may times as possible in order to shrink worlds into linear progression......

     

     

    Honestly I expect a few things from dungeons.

    A) I expect an actual experience not just a cave full of monsters. Give my character  a reason to be there. What's the story? (note there is a difference between me the player and my character).

    B) I expect it to be a challenge and for their to be a distinct possibility of failure meaning my party and I are at risk in the dungeon. We can lose the encounter if we don't do our job and even sometimes perhaps the bosses get lucky or we just didn't do well enough to win a fight.

    C) Unique mechanics and memorable characters

    D) Make the non boss NPCs important and relevant to the dungeon. I don't care how memorable the boss fights are if the rest of the dungeon isn't memorable it isn't a dungeon. Let the dungeon tell the story, give the "trash mobs" some significance in the dungeon make them feel important not just some objects for players to play a mini boss tutorial on or to beat up in between bosses.

    E) Make the boss fights memorable (this one is standard).

    F) The dungeon should feel like more then just a loot distribution center. It doesn't have to last hours but it should last long enough to feel important. Killing one or two groups of trash mobs and then fighting a boss and repeat is pathetic and boring. 

  • HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,411
    Originally posted by Tamanous
    Originally posted by Horusra
    Why would I want to be stuck in a dungeon for hours.

    Entirely depends on how it is constructed and why you are there. There were games of old that were entirely based in massive dungeons and were quite fun. It was about exploration and challenge. You were allowed to even camp within it and hopefully finding a safe enough place to not die.

     

    Dungeons have been handled rather poorly in mmos over all. They are not required to be attached to progression and tiered gear. They can simply be an extension of regional lore, exploration and adventure for the sake of adventure. They can simply be fun ... or something avoided. Before the modern themepark mmo many mmorpgs had dozens and even hundreds of dungeons ... at launch! Developers did not care if 500 players entered one a day of just 1. They existed because they were part of the concept of the living world they were trying to make.

     

    The industry treated them differently for many reasons but largely eventually managed them as content meant to be repeated as may times as possible in order to shrink worlds into linear progression more easily developed and managed. The reason for their existence within the game changed and expectations were set especially for those who never experienced other dungeon options in other games that played very differently.

     

    So why would you want to be stuck in a dungeon for hours? It could be a simple as it is very fun while offering many different reasons for being there than what you may be accustomed to.

     

    I ask you this: Have you not ever seen old abandoned buildings, caves or even dark old growth forests when perhaps young, and had that urge to explore the unknown? If not or have lost this feeling then why?

    Played AC1 never had to do hours long dungeon runs for fun.  Camping in a dungeon is nothing different than camping outside so if that is your hours in a dungeon then you might as well not put dungeon in description and just say camping for hours. 

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Horusra
    Originally posted by Tamanous
    Originally posted by Horusra
    Why would I want to be stuck in a dungeon for hours.

    Entirely depends on how it is constructed and why you are there. There were games of old that were entirely based in massive dungeons and were quite fun. It was about exploration and challenge. You were allowed to even camp within it and hopefully finding a safe enough place to not die.

     

    Dungeons have been handled rather poorly in mmos over all. They are not required to be attached to progression and tiered gear. They can simply be an extension of regional lore, exploration and adventure for the sake of adventure. They can simply be fun ... or something avoided. Before the modern themepark mmo many mmorpgs had dozens and even hundreds of dungeons ... at launch! Developers did not care if 500 players entered one a day of just 1. They existed because they were part of the concept of the living world they were trying to make.

     

    The industry treated them differently for many reasons but largely eventually managed them as content meant to be repeated as may times as possible in order to shrink worlds into linear progression more easily developed and managed. The reason for their existence within the game changed and expectations were set especially for those who never experienced other dungeon options in other games that played very differently.

     

    So why would you want to be stuck in a dungeon for hours? It could be a simple as it is very fun while offering many different reasons for being there than what you may be accustomed to.

     

    I ask you this: Have you not ever seen old abandoned buildings, caves or even dark old growth forests when perhaps young, and had that urge to explore the unknown? If not or have lost this feeling then why?

    Played AC1 never had to do hours long dungeon runs for fun.  Camping in a dungeon is nothing different than camping outside so if that is your hours in a dungeon then you might as well not put dungeon in description and just say camping for hours. 

    This. Dungeons of "old" were nothing different than open world except enclosed space.

    And i dont really know where idea that dungeons of old werent meant to be repeated. If that was so, bosses would drop what they have to drop on first run, not have miniscule drop rates that needed dozens, if not hundreds (more likely) of runs. They were ment to be farmed just like all other content in "old school" MMOs.

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    Originally posted by Tamanous
    ...
    What I talk about is preserving the very process that allows for new ideas to grow and for those ideas to persist. The current publishing landscape however kills these ideas and concepts. It corrupts them through maximizing profit by broadening the scope of the target audience and finding ways to pull in more cash once that audience reaches it's limit. This is what we should worry about because it WILL happen to the product you once loved which the entire point of this entire thread with specific relation to Wow.

     

    It flabbergasts me to hear responses that brush off this topic as paranoia when this very industry progression has impacted nearly every mmo on the market today. These changes can be the smallest integration of the model through major conversions that all but change the original game.

     

    If you headed back 10 years (evidently far too long a time for many here to grasp or such ignorance would not formulate into text) would you even have dreamt the following:

    - You could play an entire end game of an mmo simply by standing in one spot and queuing for instanced mini-games?

    - You could pay cash for a max level character?

    - You could pay cash for gear, mounts and nearly anything in game.

    - You could level faster than others by throwing money above and beyond a sub fee at the developers?

    - Entire game worlds that were created for the soul purpose of emulating realism could be bypassed by instant travel, instant group making, complete solo paths to leveling and every convenience that makes the game completely unreal rather than real?

    - Cash shops, real money gambling, in game currency converted from real world cash.

     

    I will tell you that every single player of 1st gen mmorpgs would shit a brick knowing what the future held for them and their games. You see and experience all of this and STILL have the nerve to say this trend is not happening? Are you out of your fucking minds?

    Such an amazing post.  Sobering in the midst of such insanity.


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