Especially when you consider that 2 year olds are fairly proficient with smart phones you realize that typing /sit was still something that took only a minimal iq.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Yes there were more slash commands however knowing /ooc or yell /rolez, anon... or any of those didn't really take any more thought. There was nothing more sophisticated about the games themselves. That is just another attempt for people to self gratify and feel superior. It's a false statement.
Now if your want to go back earlier and talk about code that is a different story.
That level of complexity was not in the eq daoc swg games at all.
Actually I've done a lot of things via command line in windows and via the built in Windows GUI.
It takes a fair measure of thought to use and remember the different commands.
In terms of code I disagree. I've gone over the many different aspects of the games back then many times, but it's hard to convince those who likely didn't play them much if at all.
Having played both I know which is more difficult.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Especially when you consider that 2 year olds are fairly proficient with smart phones you realize that typing /sit was still something that took only a minimal iq.
Tablets are the epitome of computers being dumbed down for the masses.
ESO flopping was the final nail in the coffin for big money MMOs. The standard theme-park quest grinder just can't keep a large playerbase no matter what the IP is. The indie survival genre is exploding however so maybe a publisher will move in that direction with AAA dollars.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Yes there were more slash commands however knowing /ooc or yell /rolez, anon... or any of those didn't really take any more thought. There was nothing more sophisticated about the games themselves. That is just another attempt for people to self gratify and feel superior. It's a false statement.
Now if your want to go back earlier and talk about code that is a different story.
That level of complexity was not in the eq daoc swg games at all.
Actually I've done a lot of things via command line in windows and via the built in Windows GUI.
It takes a fair measure of thought to use and remember the different commands.
In terms of code I disagree. I've gone over the many different aspects of the games back then many times, but it's hard to convince those who likely didn't play them much if at all.
Having played both I know which is more difficult.
I played and loved Aheron's Call - it was my first MMO. It was also a primitive and brainless grindfest with some very unbalanced game play where those with Life Magic could solo drain mobs they had no business soloing through walls and other obstacles and Unarmed melee was ridiculously OP'd and superior to any other kind of melee - players using swords couldn't even hurt some fo the blunt-damage-only mobs (e.g. golems) until the developers had the brilliant idea of introducing blunt swords... lol. And then there was the lack of a trading window that made trading with strangers a very risky proposition: "You give me the gold first"..."No. You give me the item first."
We loved those old games despite their obvious weaknesses compared to today's much more polished MMOs simply because they were our first games and they appealed only to other nerds in our niche hobby so we felt comfy and at home in those communities. And (not singling you out here - it's just that your comment about "difficult" made it handy to post this reply to your post) there is no end to the rose color BS old-timers come up with about why it was better and they needed more brain power to play
Although... I do have to admit that I'm elitist enough myself to believe that those old communities did have a much higher average IQ than say, the Mortal Kombat crowd
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar It's more impressive that a toddler can use a smart phone than it is for a teen or older to type a slash command.
Being in computer support for years I can say that using a tablet is as easy as it comes. All you do is tap on things with your figure.
If a kid could actually type on a keyboard at all and remember commands that would far more impressive.
Generally tablets are closed environments to the public. You have to unlock the bootloader to even see it's innards.
On the flip side a Operating System like Windows has always been unlocked and it's innards have always been visible (and there are a lot of them). If you had used DOS and Windows in the old days you would know it's a lot more complicated then using a tablet today. That's why many people didn't use them. Even with the advancements we have seen with making desktop computers user friendly many people just don't get it or just don't want to get.
In terms of command line that always takes more decision making and memory. Having to memorize something always takes more mental power then having to click a button with your figure (which is intuitive). It's like the discussion with the GPS/maps vs no GPS. It requires no mental power or decision making to follow a GPS. On the flip side building a mental map and possible following a compass/loc requires a fair amount of thought.
I'm not saying you were a genius if you played old MMORPGs. I'm just saying they required a lot more decision making use of the mind. I'm sure you are going to disagree with this and say something about how complicated combat is and how the mini game to throw bombs is great.
Yes i did use dos and i remember it but err didn't use that in the eq swg era. Slash commands were dead simple. They did not require anything above basic reading comprehension.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Yes there were more slash commands however knowing /ooc or yell /rolez, anon... or any of those didn't really take any more thought. There was nothing more sophisticated about the games themselves. That is just another attempt for people to self gratify and feel superior. It's a false statement.
Now if your want to go back earlier and talk about code that is a different story.
That level of complexity was not in the eq daoc swg games at all.
Actually I've done a lot of things via command line in windows and via the built in Windows GUI.
It takes a fair measure of thought to use and remember the different commands.
In terms of code I disagree. I've gone over the many different aspects of the games back then many times, but it's hard to convince those who likely didn't play them much if at all.
Having played both I know which is more difficult.
I played and loved Aheron's Call - it was my first MMO. It was also a primitive and brainless grindfest with some very unbalanced game play where those with Life Magic could solo drain mobs they had no business soloing through walls and other obstacles and Unarmed melee was ridiculously OP'd and superior to any other kind of melee - players using swords couldn't even hurt some fo the blunt-damage-only mobs (e.g. golems) until the developers had the brilliant idea of introducing blunt swords... lol. And then there was the lack of a trading window that made trading with strangers a very risky proposition: "You give me the gold first"..."No. You give me the item first."
We loved those old games despite their obvious weaknesses compared to today's much more polished MMOs simply because they were our first games and they appealed only to other nerds in our niche hobby so we felt comfy and at home in those communities. And (not singling you out here - it's just that your comment about "difficult" made it handy to post this reply to your post) there is no end to the rose color BS old-timers come up with about why it was better and they needed more brain power to play
Although... I do have to admit that I'm elitist enough myself to believe that those old communities did have a much higher average IQ than say, the Mortal Kombat crowd
Bugs just made things more complicated and required more decision making, patience, and determination to persevere IMO. It's why most people who were not nerds would /ragequit and still would /ragequit.
I never played AC, but I know EQ was difficult. Only a few people made it to the max level in Vanilla. Not many were able to pull of dungeon runs. Even soloing was at the very least a battle of attrition due to the constant possible death and loss of experience/corpse.
Ultima Online was fairly unfriendly right off the bat. The first time I walked out of time I was killed by a PKers fireball and they took all my loot. I had to figure out where to go to resurrect and then I had to figure out what to do as there were no tutorials. There were lots of decisions in game that you won't find in a modern MMO.
The whole decision thing had been done to death between your and axehilt.
But i do disagree. They were different in some areas but definitely not more complicated. I remember having just as many brain dead seasonsthen as today.
Not as much has changed as people would like to believe.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Yes i did use dos and i remember it but err didn't use that in the eq swg era. Slash commands were dead simple. They did not require anything above basic reading comprehension.
Perhaps, but in comparison to using a tablet they are basically rocket science.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar The whole decision thing had been done to death between your and axehilt.
But i do disagree. They were different in some areas but definitely not more complicated. I remember having just as many brain dead seasonsthen as today.
Not as much has changed as people would like to believe.
Video Games were never intended to be that complicated. I'm just saying they were more complicated. Now they are so easy that it's not fun to play for me. They were already to easy back then. Now it's even worse.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Yes i did use dos and i remember it but err didn't use that in the eq swg era. Slash commands were dead simple. They did not require anything above basic reading comprehension.
Perhaps, but in comparison to using a tablet they are basically rocket science.
Sometimes I wonder if there were refrigeration enthusiasts that didn't like it when fridges got dumbed down for the masses
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Hundreds of thousands of people made it to max level. And dungeon running was the norm. Almost half the classes could solo well. Slowly but very doable. Mobs were ask colored with only a few like that dark elf in wc that were really over powered. With only 5-6 abilities there were a lot of afk fights even when soloing unless you had to kite. True you could only really solo blue mobs effectively but that just made it longer and harder.
People quit not because it was hard but because they were bored with essentially doing the same things over and over again (actually the same as today however levels happen faster now so it's bearable to more people). I mean you had only 5-6 abilities total and casters could only cast 8 spells. It was not hard to coordinate that.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Yes i did use dos and i remember it but err didn't use that in the eq swg era. Slash commands were dead simple. They did not require anything above basic reading comprehension.
Perhaps, but in comparison to using a tablet they are basically rocket science.
Sometimes I wonder if there were refrigeration enthusiasts that didn't like it when fridges got dumbed down for the masses
I often think we are losing certain important knowledge with modern day conveniences.
It's kind of sad that I have to intentionally gimp myself these days just to get a challenge in the computer world or the gaming world.
Most things you do feel pretty hollow if there is no challenge to it.
Last time I checked people are still playing chess the same way they always did.
Shouldn't developers of games be looking to challenge their customers more (not less)?
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Hundreds of thousands of people made it to max level. And dungeon running was the norm. Almost half the classes could solo well. Slowly but very doable. Mobs were ask colored with only a few like that dark elf in wc that were really over powered. With only 5-6 abilities there were a lot of afk fights even when soloing unless you had to kite. True you could only really solo blue mobs effectively but that just made it longer and harder.
People quit not because it was hard but because they were bored with essentially doing the same things over and over again (actually the same as today however levels happen faster now so it's bearable to more people). I mean you had only 5-6 abilities total and casters could only cast 8 spells. It was not hard to coordinate that.
Well part of being a nerd in those days was having the determination to fight through things you didn't completely enjoy. When you did get the goal accomplished it felt all the better for doing it.
The dungeons were a lot more complex and most people couldn't solo in them unless they were about 20 to 30 levels above them (except for the starting low level dungeons).
If you were in a group generally things were a bit more exciting. Usually the puller could pull things fairly quickly. You had to be a lot more on your toes though because of wandering mobs.
Actually chess has had several changes over the years. The pieces use to have much more limited movement. Bishops used to be able to jump only two spaces, the queen could only move one space and pawns used to not be able to move 2 spaces on their first move.
It had been a few hundred years since any changes though.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Hundreds of thousands of people made it to max level. And dungeon running was the norm. Almost half the classes could solo well. Slowly but very doable. Mobs were ask colored with only a few like that dark elf in wc that were really over powered. With only 5-6 abilities there were a lot of afk fights even when soloing unless you had to kite. True you could only really solo blue mobs effectively but that just made it longer and harder.
People quit not because it was hard but because they were bored with essentially doing the same things over and over again (actually the same as today however levels happen faster now so it's bearable to more people). I mean you had only 5-6 abilities total and casters could only cast 8 spells. It was not hard to coordinate that.
Well part of being a nerd in those days was having the determination to fight through things you didn't completely enjoy. When you did get the goal accomplished it felt all the better for doing it.
The dungeons were a lot more complex and most people couldn't solo in them unless they were about 20 to 30 levels above them (except for the starting low level dungeons).
If you were in a group generally things were a bit more exciting. Usually the puller could pull things fairly quickly. You had to be a lot more on your toes though because of wandering mobs.
People talk about the "nerd-dom" of old-school mmorpgs, but the fact of the matter is you didn't have to techinically play as much. For example with SWG -- too, an mmo as late as the original Dark Fall -- would allow to write fifty+ lines of code that would level one, often more, skills fully. Moreover that macro would often include handling most of the dangerous events in the general environment -- environmental AI tended to be much better.
Though I am grateful to the latter generation of mmorpgs; without them, I would probably never have gotten back into distance hiking. xD
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Yes i did use dos and i remember it but err didn't use that in the eq swg era. Slash commands were dead simple. They did not require anything above basic reading comprehension.
Perhaps, but in comparison to using a tablet they are basically rocket science.
Sometimes I wonder if there were refrigeration enthusiasts that didn't like it when fridges got dumbed down for the masses
I often think we are losing certain important knowledge with modern day conveniences.
It's kind of sad that I have to intentionally gimp myself these days just to get a challenge in the computer world or the gaming world.
Most things you do feel pretty hollow if there is no challenge to it.
Last time I checked people are still playing chess the same way they always did.
Shouldn't developers of games be looking to challenge their customers more (not less)?
MMOs are microcosms of society and that being said, the answer to your question is No. Not if they want any chance at all of making a profit. The vast majority of gamers in the genre today would rage quit UO and EQ if those games were released today because they are too damn hard, no telegraphs, grouping was a must in most cases, and people actually had to talk to each other!
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Yes i did use dos and i remember it but err didn't use that in the eq swg era. Slash commands were dead simple. They did not require anything above basic reading comprehension.
Perhaps, but in comparison to using a tablet they are basically rocket science.
Sometimes I wonder if there were refrigeration enthusiasts that didn't like it when fridges got dumbed down for the masses
I often think we are losing certain important knowledge with modern day conveniences.
It's kind of sad that I have to intentionally gimp myself these days just to get a challenge in the computer world or the gaming world.
Most things you do feel pretty hollow if there is no challenge to it.
Last time I checked people are still playing chess the same way they always did.
Shouldn't developers of games be looking to challenge their customers more (not less)?
MMOs are microcosms of society and that being said, the answer to your question is No. Not if they want any chance at all of making a profit. The vast majority of gamers in the genre today would rage quit UO and EQ if those games were released today because they are too damn hard, no telegraphs, grouping was a must in most cases, and people actually had to talk to each other!
Comments
For you perhaps.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Actually I've done a lot of things via command line in windows and via the built in Windows GUI.
It takes a fair measure of thought to use and remember the different commands.
In terms of code I disagree. I've gone over the many different aspects of the games back then many times, but it's hard to convince those who likely didn't play them much if at all.
Having played both I know which is more difficult.
Tablets are the epitome of computers being dumbed down for the masses.
ESO flopping was the final nail in the coffin for big money MMOs. The standard theme-park quest grinder just can't keep a large playerbase no matter what the IP is. The indie survival genre is exploding however so maybe a publisher will move in that direction with AAA dollars.
I played and loved Aheron's Call - it was my first MMO. It was also a primitive and brainless grindfest with some very unbalanced game play where those with Life Magic could solo drain mobs they had no business soloing through walls and other obstacles and Unarmed melee was ridiculously OP'd and superior to any other kind of melee - players using swords couldn't even hurt some fo the blunt-damage-only mobs (e.g. golems) until the developers had the brilliant idea of introducing blunt swords... lol. And then there was the lack of a trading window that made trading with strangers a very risky proposition: "You give me the gold first"..."No. You give me the item first."
We loved those old games despite their obvious weaknesses compared to today's much more polished MMOs simply because they were our first games and they appealed only to other nerds in our niche hobby so we felt comfy and at home in those communities. And (not singling you out here - it's just that your comment about "difficult" made it handy to post this reply to your post) there is no end to the rose color BS old-timers come up with about why it was better and they needed more brain power to play
Although... I do have to admit that I'm elitist enough myself to believe that those old communities did have a much higher average IQ than say, the Mortal Kombat crowd
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Being in computer support for years I can say that using a tablet is as easy as it comes. All you do is tap on things with your figure.
If a kid could actually type on a keyboard at all and remember commands that would far more impressive.
Generally tablets are closed environments to the public. You have to unlock the bootloader to even see it's innards.
On the flip side a Operating System like Windows has always been unlocked and it's innards have always been visible (and there are a lot of them). If you had used DOS and Windows in the old days you would know it's a lot more complicated then using a tablet today. That's why many people didn't use them. Even with the advancements we have seen with making desktop computers user friendly many people just don't get it or just don't want to get.
In terms of command line that always takes more decision making and memory. Having to memorize something always takes more mental power then having to click a button with your figure (which is intuitive). It's like the discussion with the GPS/maps vs no GPS. It requires no mental power or decision making to follow a GPS. On the flip side building a mental map and possible following a compass/loc requires a fair amount of thought.
I'm not saying you were a genius if you played old MMORPGs. I'm just saying they required a lot more decision making use of the mind. I'm sure you are going to disagree with this and say something about how complicated combat is and how the mini game to throw bombs is great.
Bugs just made things more complicated and required more decision making, patience, and determination to persevere IMO. It's why most people who were not nerds would /ragequit and still would /ragequit.
I never played AC, but I know EQ was difficult. Only a few people made it to the max level in Vanilla. Not many were able to pull of dungeon runs. Even soloing was at the very least a battle of attrition due to the constant possible death and loss of experience/corpse.
Ultima Online was fairly unfriendly right off the bat. The first time I walked out of time I was killed by a PKers fireball and they took all my loot. I had to figure out where to go to resurrect and then I had to figure out what to do as there were no tutorials. There were lots of decisions in game that you won't find in a modern MMO.
But i do disagree. They were different in some areas but definitely not more complicated. I remember having just as many brain dead seasonsthen as today.
Not as much has changed as people would like to believe.
Perhaps, but in comparison to using a tablet they are basically rocket science.
Video Games were never intended to be that complicated. I'm just saying they were more complicated. Now they are so easy that it's not fun to play for me. They were already to easy back then. Now it's even worse.
Sometimes I wonder if there were refrigeration enthusiasts that didn't like it when fridges got dumbed down for the masses
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
People quit not because it was hard but because they were bored with essentially doing the same things over and over again (actually the same as today however levels happen faster now so it's bearable to more people). I mean you had only 5-6 abilities total and casters could only cast 8 spells. It was not hard to coordinate that.
I often think we are losing certain important knowledge with modern day conveniences.
It's kind of sad that I have to intentionally gimp myself these days just to get a challenge in the computer world or the gaming world.
Most things you do feel pretty hollow if there is no challenge to it.
Last time I checked people are still playing chess the same way they always did.
Shouldn't developers of games be looking to challenge their customers more (not less)?
Well part of being a nerd in those days was having the determination to fight through things you didn't completely enjoy. When you did get the goal accomplished it felt all the better for doing it.
The dungeons were a lot more complex and most people couldn't solo in them unless they were about 20 to 30 levels above them (except for the starting low level dungeons).
If you were in a group generally things were a bit more exciting. Usually the puller could pull things fairly quickly. You had to be a lot more on your toes though because of wandering mobs.
It had been a few hundred years since any changes though.
People talk about the "nerd-dom" of old-school mmorpgs, but the fact of the matter is you didn't have to techinically play as much. For example with SWG -- too, an mmo as late as the original Dark Fall -- would allow to write fifty+ lines of code that would level one, often more, skills fully. Moreover that macro would often include handling most of the dangerous events in the general environment -- environmental AI tended to be much better.
Though I am grateful to the latter generation of mmorpgs; without them, I would probably never have gotten back into distance hiking. xD
http://wyrdblogging.blogspot.com/
MMOs are microcosms of society and that being said, the answer to your question is No. Not if they want any chance at all of making a profit. The vast majority of gamers in the genre today would rage quit UO and EQ if those games were released today because they are too damn hard, no telegraphs, grouping was a must in most cases, and people actually had to talk to each other!
Too hard...do not kid yourself.