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Trinity is still the superior combat mechanic, by a large margin.

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  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,065
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Malabooga
     

    but im glad that you see that its actually NON trinity elements make things interesting, and im glad you can concluse that trnity "works" BECAUSE its simple.

    The holy trinity came to life exactly because it is the simpler to code for MMO environment.

    Threat-based combat wasn't created because it was simpler. It was created because it was one of the alternatives to collision (which players were abusing) when the DikuMUD gameplay was brought to 3D space. 

    If that was true than you would simply see disabled collision when players "collide" with other players, which for example GW1 had outside of PvP where players could body block the enemy but not the allies.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • stevebombsquadstevebombsquad Member UncommonPosts: 884
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    Please, explain in great detail what anyone has to do to get healed in trinity game except healer presing 1 button.

    Not sure what you're asking.

    But the ways trinity games handle heals  I have played:

     

    -Burst heals (short cast time, low heal)

    -Larger heals (slower, larger heal)

    -Group heals (heals the group, usually less powerful for single targets)

    -HoT (Heals over time, usually cast before engage)

    -Proc heals (go off during mob hits)

    -Balance average heals (the group's health is totaled and split evenly over everoyne, usually extremely fast cast)

    -Divine intervention type heals (go off when a tank drops below 0%)

    -Target heals (damage dealt to a mob heals the group in return)

    -Damage with heal recourse (Nukes damage + heal)

    etc

     

    To say healing is just hitting one button, is just misguided.

     

    *For example, if you're not quick enough to find your tank and can't target the tank, casting a nuke with a heal recourse on the mob might save the tank's life.

    *For example, if 2 characters in your group are at 30% and dropping, do you cast a balance heal that averages the group's health, or do you try a group heal that is slower, split decision, often only one is the right one.

    *For example, if your tank is dropping to 20% all the time, are you willing to go off of your fast heal chain and do a divine intervention that might bring him to almost full again, or will your cast time be too slow and will he die, split decision.

     

    It is those split decisions that turn average healers into great healers.

     

    Jeebus.

    What does healer has to do to execute burst heal, and what anyone else (tank) has to do to receive burst heal.

    Insert whatever heal you want instead burst heal.

    Have no idea what you're saying.

    Spell is IRRELEVANT, it can be 845616 different heal skills.

    You said healers press just one button in trinity games. Don't think you played many trinity games.

    It is obvious that he hasn't. There is really no point in continuing the conversation. You can't argue with someone who doesn't understand or that makes circular arguments. Save yourself the grief. 

    James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?

  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    *sigh* *5 years old mode*

    You have a healer. Lets call him "A"

    You have someone who needs healing. Lets call him "B"

    You pick a heal skill from list of 16545641564 heal skills available. Number of skills available is IRRELEVANT to trinity.

    What do A has to do and what B has to do to get B healed.

    Man, i miss Axe, he at least knows what combat system is ;P

    no idea what your point is sorry

  • Rushx84Rushx84 Member Posts: 3
    i wont even buy a mmorpg that doesnt have holy trinity, i bought gw2 and it was a complete failure
  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    *sigh* *5 years old mode*

    You have a healer. Lets call him "A"

    You have someone who needs healing. Lets call him "B"

    You pick a heal skill from list of 16545641564 heal skills available. Number of skills available is IRRELEVANT to trinity.

    What do A has to do and what B has to do to get B healed.

    Man, i miss Axe, he at least knows what combat system is ;P

    no idea what your point is sorry

    Thats why you shouldnt make threads claiming superiority of combat systems.

    Once you DO get the point, THEN you can assess what is superior and what isnt.

    Oh, and yes, point was also given in this very thread few pages ago.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    Please, explain in great detail what anyone has to do to get healed in trinity game except healer presing 1 button.

    Not sure what you're asking.

    But the ways trinity games handle heals  I have played:

     

    -Burst heals (short cast time, low heal)

    -Larger heals (slower, larger heal)

    -Group heals (heals the group, usually less powerful for single targets)

    -HoT (Heals over time, usually cast before engage)

    -Proc heals (go off during mob hits)

    -Balance average heals (the group's health is totaled and split evenly over everoyne, usually extremely fast cast)

    -Divine intervention type heals (go off when a tank drops below 0%)

    -Target heals (damage dealt to a mob heals the group in return)

    -Damage with heal recourse (Nukes damage + heal)

    etc

     

    To say healing is just hitting one button, is just misguided.

     

    *For example, if you're not quick enough to find your tank and can't target the tank, casting a nuke with a heal recourse on the mob might save the tank's life.

    *For example, if 2 characters in your group are at 30% and dropping, do you cast a balance heal that averages the group's health, or do you try a group heal that is slower, split decision, often only one is the right one.

    *For example, if your tank is dropping to 20% all the time, are you willing to go off of your fast heal chain and do a divine intervention that might bring him to almost full again, or will your cast time be too slow and will he die, split decision.

    *If an AE goes off and the whole groups drops to 40%, do you focus on the tank or not. Can the tank handle missing a fast heal, do you have time to heal the group right now or not. Split decision.

     

    It is those split decisions that turn average healers into great healers.

     

         Exactly..  I always found it great that a player can be a great HEALER, but a terrible tank, or average dps..  If the role combat (aka trinity) is set up correctly, it allows for a player to SHINE and demostrate their skills..  I consider myself a great healer.. (NO ONE DIES ON MY WATCH) is my motto.. I focus on the group/raid members health, and ignore the dps/tank stuff.. I have to put faith that my group members are doing their jobs as well..  Just like the tank only has to concern himself in "taking" aggro and holding the attention of the mob, and doesn't worry about heals or dps..  etc etc.. 

         I've always considered that it's your born talent and personality that dictates what role one should be playing.. 

  • azzamasinazzamasin Member UncommonPosts: 3,100
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by YashaX
    There are a lot of Korean mmos, what game in particular are you talking about?

    Vindictus, CO9, Black Desert, Blade&Soul, Blessed, ArcheAge, Cabal 2, etc.

    Almost all major MMO from Korea have made all classes into DPS classes where everyone is capable of soloing and where strictly defined roles are no longer required. The combat is no longer about strategy at a slow pace, but about who can mash the most combos together, exactly like on a console solo game.

    Sounds more like an Eastern thing then an action or trinity thing to me.  I prefer some semblance of Trinity but not at the expense of static roles.  The trinity's major flaw is that no matter how large you make the group size you will forever have an overabundance of DPS to Tank/Healer.  Slapping a alternate role or alternate spec still doesn't alleviate the problem.  The majority of players enjoy DPS way more.  This is a proven fact and if you like DPS there's no getting around the fact you're always going to be the most unwanted class.  Adding in alternate roles such as CC or Puller only exacerbates the problems of a trinity system.  I don;t have an answer but I was hoping EQN would of solved it.  For the record most Action Games I played are way more skillful then the atypical tab Target game, where once you learn the fight it becomes easy mode.  No fun in that at all for me.  In an action game, positioning, timing and correct dodging is more important and offers more skill to shine though.  Games like Neverwinter, ESO and Path of Exile are inherently better for me.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

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  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    actually theres only 2 states and 2 decisions to make: go and stop. Any other decisions are made by encounter design and not reliant on trinity.

    Your attempt of using argument that if you completely ignore your core game combat mechanics you can design non trinity encouters as some kind of reassurance is broken. You cannot use non trinity design by using trinity combat system (we are talking about challenging content here, not content that can just ignore any kind of combat system, popularly called "zerging the stuff")

    And whats exactly "FPS-like fight" and "MMO like fight"? Neither of those are inherenty trinity or not trinity systems. They are DELIBERATELY made trinity or non trinity. And pnp systems (at least notable ones) DIDNT use trinity, thats MMOs invention as a way to SIMPLIFY combat, nothing more. There was NO trinity before MMOs, because trinity inherently doesnt make sense in the first place.

    Here is the logic you have presented:

    • Trinity is limited because it can't do non-trinity fights.
    • The non-trinity fights that do exist in trinity games don't count, because they're not the trinity.
    Maybe you'd like to straighten out your story and pick a logical stance to argue?
     
    The lack of trinity in PnP RPGs made for very bland combat. Roles were weakly defined and most classes were quite shallow (only spellcasters got anything resembling tactical decision-making.) AD&D 2nd simply had shallow combat (and by extension so did all the games based on its combat.)  Wasn't til 4E that combat became more of a tactical thing; in part because of the introduction of many trinity elements (few outright taunts existed, but significant penalties were incurred if the monster didn't attack the leader that marked it.)
     
    Not all gamers wanted deep, involved, tactical combat in their PnP RPGs, but that's simply their preference, not a failure of the system.
     
    So for myself, as someone who enjoys combat with meaningful decisions, the addition of trinity to PnP RPGs made combat far more enjoyable.  Suddenly it was a puzzle; a game to figure out and master.

    lol, limit yourself to actual encounters. Of course games can ditch their combat system and do something else, it goes the same for non trinity games. But i dont see how that realtes that if you USE trinity you cant go outside of trinity boundaries (well techically you can, in every game there are different areas where you can just ignore combat system, pretty much in any area you can solo or "zerg"). Encounters where numbers are diligently adjusted for certain group composition will require that group composition or very slight varience (dont need 3 healers but 2 or some such)

    4E was the worst edition and i think it was shortest lived.

    And you get to the point of it, combat was never really highlight of pnp. It wasnt supposed to be goal. pnp wanst supposed to be just combat simulator. In fact, in good campaigns and crpgs there was usually way to completely avoid combat. That is the difference between crpg and hack&slash games. But that also goes beyond trinity.

    And you can have puzzles in non-trinity combat systems, but thats the whole point, you arent limited just to that, trinity pigeonholes you to just that. Now. that wouldnt be so bad if there was a lot of varince, asfter all, how long does rubiks cube stay ineteresting once youve solved it.

    And no, someone poking you with a stick, hitting you in the head or walking on thin rope while youre doing your rubiks cube doesnt change the fact youre still doing rubiks cube. All those things are irrelevant to the fact that youre still doing rubiks cube, and there are lot of stuff that can be in place of that rubiks cube WHILE you still can have all those exetrnal....stuff.

     

  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    trinity pigeonholes you

    It does, I don't think anyone denies that. I think roles are a better word.

    That's why more people group in trinity games, since no one class can stand on it's own, only by combining classes do you get a well balanced group. It means people depend on each other.

    But that's also why trinity systems tend to have better communities.

    That's also why they fulfill the Massively Multiplayer part of MMORPG.

    That's why they're easy to build complex raids for.

    That's why guilds in trinity games have a hierarchy, a class system, a class officer, a raid instructor, that's why everything is so structured and why everything works so well.

    That's why you don't get much zerging in trinity games, every class is rather powerless on their own, a specific strategy is needed to defeat a mob.

     

    You don't see people asking if trinity games like Everquest, FFXIV, WoW, etc. are MMO, they're MMO, they fulfill the multiplayer part, the players depend on each other, they play together.

     

    What I have seen over the last couple of years, especially from Korea, are games that the media calls MMO, that aren't really MMO. They are action console type games wrapped into an MMO denominator, they're purely action oriented games that don't involve much cooperation or strategy, but lots of combos, lots of zerging and they are reaction type games that rely more on the reaction of players than on cooperation between players.

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    trinity pigeonholes you

    It does, I don't think anyone denies that. I think roles are a better word.

    That's why more people group in trinity games, since no one class can stand on it's own, only by combining classes do you get a well balanced group. It means people depend on each other.

    But that's also why trinity systems tend to have better communities.

    That's also why they fulfill the Massively Multiplayer part of MMORPG.

    That's why they're easy to build complex raids for.

    That's why guilds in trinity games have a hierarchy, a class system, a class officer, a raid instructor, that's why everything is so structured and why everything works so well.

    That's why you don't get much zerging in trinity games, every class is rather powerless on their own, a specific strategy is needed to defeat a mob.

    Needing a group is irrelevant to trinity, some encounters in GW2 require 100+ people all acting in coordinated manner. And guess what? neither of those people are pigeonholed like in trinity combat. But they STILL have roles to fulfill.

    You get as much zerging as much games allows it, it has nothing to do with combat system.

  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    You get as much zerging as much games allows it, it has nothing to do with combat system.

    Oh zerging has a lot to do with the combat system, it has to do with the defense of classes.

    Because non-trinity MMO have no aggro system, any class can get hit in those games, which resulted in those games giving much higher defense to all classes.

    In a trinity game, support and healer classes have much lower defense, only tanks get the high armor class, which means zerging is almost impossible under most circumstances.

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    You get as much zerging as much games allows it, it has nothing to do with combat system.

    Oh zerging has a lot to do with the combat system, it has to do with the defense of classes.

    Because non-trinity MMO have no aggro system, any class can get hit in those games, which resulted in those games giving much higher defense to all classes.

    In a trinity game, support and healer classes have much lower defense, only tanks get the high armor class, which means zerging is almost impossible under most circumstances.

    So, in another words its game dependant and not combat system dependant.

    You can zerg 99% content in WoW (probably more) and thats trinity game to teh bone.

    You can even zerg most group content if your stats are high enough.

    You could zerg most of old school games if you highly outleveled most of the content.

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    trinity pigeonholes you

    It does, I don't think anyone denies that. I think roles are a better word.

    That's why more people group in trinity games, since no one class can stand on it's own, only by combining classes do you get a well balanced group. It means people depend on each other.

    What makes you think more people group in trinity games? In fact quite the opposite, there's been an explosion of lobbies to manage setting up tanks healers and dps because of the mismatch in numbers between the roles.  Behaviour in those lobbied raids are pretty foul.

    But that's also why trinity systems tend to have better communities.

    No they don't in fact the behaviour is pretty obnoxious a lot of the time, tanks blame healers, healers blame dps, tanks and healers feel as if they are more important the dps.  No cc classes, utter dependancy on whoremeters (e.g we regularlry see shite like 'omg noob you only done x% healing!' etc don't we.)

    That's why they're easy to build complex raids for.

    lol they build complex functions into bosses because they cannot build complexity into the player skillsets due to balancing issues.  A boss fight has 50 patterns to rote learn is as far as it goes.

    That's why guilds in trinity games have a hierarchy, a class system, a class officer, a raid instructor, that's why everything is so structured and why everything works so well.

    No, they have the complex structure to manage the dependency on x tanks and x healers to be able to even run events and to distribute loot.

    That's why you don't get much zerging in trinity games, every class is rather powerless on their own, a specific strategy is needed to defeat a mob.

     lol 99% of trinity is zerging, in fact some content is so broken due to balance you can actually drop one of the trinity.

    You don't see people asking if trinity games like Everquest, FFXIV, WoW, etc. are MMO, they're MMO, they fulfill the multiplayer part, the players depend on each other, they play together.

    Do the players depend on each other?, or do they depend on the 3 roles, i.e raid is not viable if one of the roles is absent.

    What I have seen over the last couple of years, especially from Korea, are games that the media calls MMO, that aren't really MMO. They are action console type games wrapped into an MMO denominator, they're purely action oriented games that don't involve much cooperation or strategy, but lots of combos, lots of zerging and they are reaction type games that rely more on the reaction of players than on cooperation between players.

    'action' is not the opposite of Trinity.  Nothing is the opposite of trinity, the alternative is where there is cc skills and kiting skills are actually used and players can act as hybrid tankhealer/cc/kiters/dps.

     

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    OP-

    Bashing on console players?

    F*ck off you elitist prick.

    Get over yourself buddy- and every other elitist PC gamer who thinks their shit doesn't stink needs to wake up, grow up, and stop being a massive huge pile of steaming feces.

    I'd take a racial slur spouting, music in the background blaring "console kid" on my team over jerks like you any fucking day of the week pal.

    People like you is why I  turn of mics on console and why I rarely play online on console .If you said such things in Everquest, you would be guild kicked by me

    It is also why I think that trinity and cooperation matter in MMO if you want a good community.

    For example, if you said what you just said in Everquest, your reputation would be tarnished quite a bit, and you would be reprimanded for your behavior by your guild officer, because unlike MMO or consoles where you can just say whatever you like, in a game where classes are well defined, like trinity, you need to depend on each other and your reputation matters.

    What you say, is extremely common on consoles, you say it yourself, you have no issues with racial slurs and you have no issues cursing me out for my opinion, that wouldn't work out very well for you in MMO where reputation was a factor, probably why you like consoles and that type of gameplay, since it allows you to say and act any way you like without repercussions.

    People mentioned WoW. At least WoW has a little bit of a community left, at least trinity based games have some sort of community where there is some  mutual respect between players, where you can't say whatever you want. Where depending on each other is embraced instead of rejected, and where the Multiplayer aspect of MMO, is actually central instead of an afterthought.

    He didn't say he had no issue with that. He gave that as an example of the worst possible scenario he could think of at the moment and said he would prefer that over YOU.    Honest question here - do you intentionally twist what people say or is part of the problem you have in this thread that you English isn't your native tongue? It's hard to tell which it is, especially when a poster is as clear in their statement as BadSpock was.

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    Originally posted by Bladestrom

     lol 99% of trinity is zerging

    can't take your reply very serious with statement like that, they don't make sense to me

    Trinity has extremely low amounts of zerging, because many classes have low defense in trinity systems, since they are support classes, which means low defense, which makes them much too vulnerable for zerg.

    Unlike action MMO, where defense of classes is buffed to allow anyone to DPS.

  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    OP-

    Bashing on console players?

    F*ck off you elitist prick.

    Get over yourself buddy- and every other elitist PC gamer who thinks their shit doesn't stink needs to wake up, grow up, and stop being a massive huge pile of steaming feces.

    I'd take a racial slur spouting, music in the background blaring "console kid" on my team over jerks like you any fucking day of the week pal.

    People like you is why I  turn of mics on console and why I rarely play online on console .If you said such things in Everquest, you would be guild kicked by me

    It is also why I think that trinity and cooperation matter in MMO if you want a good community.

    For example, if you said what you just said in Everquest, your reputation would be tarnished quite a bit, and you would be reprimanded for your behavior by your guild officer, because unlike MMO or consoles where you can just say whatever you like, in a game where classes are well defined, like trinity, you need to depend on each other and your reputation matters.

    What you say, is extremely common on consoles, you say it yourself, you have no issues with racial slurs and you have no issues cursing me out for my opinion, that wouldn't work out very well for you in MMO where reputation was a factor, probably why you like consoles and that type of gameplay, since it allows you to say and act any way you like without repercussions.

    People mentioned WoW. At least WoW has a little bit of a community left, at least trinity based games have some sort of community where there is some  mutual respect between players, where you can't say whatever you want. Where depending on each other is embraced instead of rejected, and where the Multiplayer aspect of MMO, is actually central instead of an afterthought.

    He didn't say he had no issue with that. He gave that as an example of the worst possible scenario he could think of at the moment and said he would prefer that over YOU.    Honest question here - do you intentionally twist what people say or is part of the problem you have in this thread that you English isn't your native tongue? It's hard to tell which it is, especially when a poster is as clear in their statement as BadSpock was.

     

     

    No I have a problem with him calling me "elitist prick", "pile of feces" and "jerk".

    And I'll report you too if you start like him. Because if you defend ppl calling others that, I'll report you, especially if you do it in my threat that has stayed clean.

    Understand? Don't start like him. I didn't make the thread for that. Either discuss trinity or leave.

    And there is nothing wrong with my English.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    OP-

    Bashing on console players?

    F*ck off you elitist prick.

    Get over yourself buddy- and every other elitist PC gamer who thinks their shit doesn't stink needs to wake up, grow up, and stop being a massive huge pile of steaming feces.

    I'd take a racial slur spouting, music in the background blaring "console kid" on my team over jerks like you any fucking day of the week pal.

    People like you is why I  turn of mics on console and why I rarely play online on console .If you said such things in Everquest, you would be guild kicked by me

    It is also why I think that trinity and cooperation matter in MMO if you want a good community.

    For example, if you said what you just said in Everquest, your reputation would be tarnished quite a bit, and you would be reprimanded for your behavior by your guild officer, because unlike MMO or consoles where you can just say whatever you like, in a game where classes are well defined, like trinity, you need to depend on each other and your reputation matters.

    What you say, is extremely common on consoles, you say it yourself, you have no issues with racial slurs and you have no issues cursing me out for my opinion, that wouldn't work out very well for you in MMO where reputation was a factor, probably why you like consoles and that type of gameplay, since it allows you to say and act any way you like without repercussions.

    People mentioned WoW. At least WoW has a little bit of a community left, at least trinity based games have some sort of community where there is some  mutual respect between players, where you can't say whatever you want. Where depending on each other is embraced instead of rejected, and where the Multiplayer aspect of MMO, is actually central instead of an afterthought.

    He didn't say he had no issue with that. He gave that as an example of the worst possible scenario he could think of at the moment and said he would prefer that over YOU.    Honest question here - do you intentionally twist what people say or is part of the problem you have in this thread that you English isn't your native tongue? It's hard to tell which it is, especially when a poster is as clear in their statement as BadSpock was.

    No I have a problem with him calling me "elitist prick", "pile of feces" and "jerk".

    And I'll report you too if you start like him. Because if you defend ppl calling others that, I'll report you, especially if you do it in my threat that has stayed clean.

    Understand? Don't start like him. I didn't make the thread for that. Either discuss trinity or leave.

    And there is nothing wrong with my English.

    Report me for what? Presenting a view you don't like?

    As for your understanding of English...

     

    • BadSpock: I'd take a racial slur spouting, music in the background blaring "console kid" on my team over jerks like you
    • Kiyoris: you say it yourself, you have no issues with racial slurs
    • Loktofeit: He didn't say he had no issue with that. He gave that as an example of the worst possible scenario he could think of at the moment and said he would prefer that over YOU.
    • Kiyoris: And I'll report you too if you start like him. Because if you defend ppl calling others that, I'll report you, especially if you do it in my threat that has stayed clean. Understand? Don't start like him. I didn't make the thread for that. Either discuss trinity or leave.


    You misunderstood both his statement and mine, accusing him of having no issue with racial slurs and accusing me of defending him for pointing out that wasn't what he said. You can see this pattern in your responses throughout this massive thread, which is why I asked if you were doing it intentionally or just not familiar with the language.

    So, take a breather man. Get rest and come back when you can look at things a bit more clearly.

     

     

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by Bladestrom

     lol 99% of trinity is zerging

    can't take your reply very serious with statement like that, they don't make sense to me

    Trinity has extremely low amounts of zerging, because many classes have low defense in trinity systems, since they are support classes, which means low defense, which makes them much too vulnerable for zerg.

    Unlike action MMO, where defense of classes is buffed to allow anyone to DPS.

    Lets take wow for an example:

    5 mans  tanking and healing is largely irrelevant, you just burn through everything and ignore boss special attacks.

    ditto all raids appart from the higher levels of difficulty.   you rush through the raid, you dps everything, you ignore many attack patterns because you overpower it.

    99% is an exaggeration maybe 90% of the time you entirely ignore damage and just zerg.   Granted though the underlying issue is that trinity games tend to be power based, and wow is a mess in that regard, but its still the flagship trinity game out there. 

    Action mmos have nothing to do with this, the word 'action' is another strawman argument.  Replace action with a game that has viable cc/kiting/support/dps/healer/tanking skills that people can use/pick then you are nearer the mark.  In this case, everyone manages aggro, some use kiting skills, other cc and go defensive, others tank through it. A lot more interesting and group orientated than playing who will be number one on the meters, which is ofc what happens with dps/hps/damage taken.

    I think the OP was wrong in saying trinity is superior (how can simplified and stagnant be superior) , but I do think there's a place for Trinity , everyone enjoys a trinity fight - just not all the time, and vice versa.

     

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  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Bladestrom

     I do think there's a place for Trinity , everyone enjoys a trinity fight - just not all the time, and vice versa.

    Agreed. It has a structured character development and combat system that makes it easy to learn and accessible even for a new player. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
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  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,163

    What Bladestorm just posted is precisely why there are difficulty levels in WoW. Only part where he's wrong is that you don't do 5 man heroics by ignoring the mechanics, or you end at the graveyard. I'd actually daresay that 5 man heroics are "harder" than most LFR encounters except the hardest (Imperator, Blackhand, etc...).

    I don't know how to say this without sounding like I belittle a part of the player base, but some people just do NOT want hard, and do NOT want committed. Yet those people still pay the same subscription than everyone else. That's what content up to and including "LFR" (Looking For Raid) is for.

    Then, for people in guilds, who want more challenging content where you have to pay attention, you have normal raids and higher, and you get much better rewards for doing those.

    There is nothing wrong with that. It's actually an excellent design for a "WoW" style MMO (no surprise, the master still does it better than any copies), every player can see the content he pays for no matter his investment, since he pays the same monthly fee, yet he's rewarded according to the investment he's willing to make.

    To go back on topic, what he says though has nothing to do with the trinity and its difficulty. The "WoW" trinity model can be scaled from extremely easy and simple (LFR) up to extremely challenging and difficult (Mythic).

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  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977

    I dont really see why is there zerg discussion.

    In WoW 1-100 is all zerg and part of endgame is zerg, i would say that is 99% of content.

    There is as much zerg as much game allows it, ANY game. AND theres a good reason why games allow it.

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Bladestrom

     I do think there's a place for Trinity , everyone enjoys a trinity fight - just not all the time, and vice versa.

    Agreed. It has a structured character development and combat system that makes it easy to learn and accessible even for a new player. 

    Of course there is, but its one thing to say there is a place, completely another to say usual stuff like

    only trinity works

    trinity is superior

    trinity encourages grouping

    trinty has better community

    ...

    because THAT is false, all that it does is demonstrating that poster doesnt understand what hes talking about

  • xaritscinxaritscin Member UncommonPosts: 350

    from what i've read in this thread, people really need to get over the concept that zerging is a tactic as old as warfare itself, its not a recent thing, overpowering the enemy using numbers has existed since the dawn of civilization, in fact, its part of the natural tactics of some species. humanity is the only sentient race that thinks quality wins over quantity most of the time.

    its something you cannot balance, even in MOBAs the use of overwhelming numbers is a valid tactic (getting 1v2/3/4/5 ganks). you can only counter that either being an incredibly broken character or being several lvls higher than them. and that only ensures you can survive enough for taking down one or two depending if they have crowd control.

    so no, zerging is not a recent invention, its just one of the most basic and safe tactics to do in battle, and in a controlled environment as in MMOs is worth exploiting because of it. the devs are only obligued to make it the least annoying as possible, but it cannot be eliminated alltogether without adding certain unfair mechanics.

    if you want fair PvP the only option are duels, warfare was never meant to be fair, even less in games, when there's no real organization, no real strategy, games like EVE have fleet commanders and all the thing but still, the final word of power comes from how many people can you land on the battlefield. without real consequences there's no way to balance the zerg rush, that doesnt happen in an online game, if you loose units they will respawn and can enter the battle again later, IRL if you loose forces you have to either retreat or loose alltogether, the chances of defeating the enemy in battle with number imbalance is extremely rare.

    as for the trinity system itself, well, rock/paper/scissors has always been a valid system for balancing, but limits the customization of the characters in the game, and customization is the new flavor that comes for most of the new games, the industry is shifting from static classes to dinamic skill systems, over specialization can be counterproductive the same way as generalism can be a downer in some cases. the trinity is not enough anymore.

    if someone wants to support he should have the right to do it without being obligued to chose X or Y class. the same way as someone would like to choose of tanking or dealing damage. class based systems have to be scrapped and there has to exist a real choice based system for players.

    in the end, the problems of PvP are a result of player behavior more than game mechanics, the players are the ones who find the ways to exploit the system for their benefit...it doesnt matter if the game has trinity or not

     

     

     

  • ReklawReklaw Member UncommonPosts: 6,495

    I do enjoy both but the non-trinity when playing with likeminded players to me is more challenging because you really need to think of a proper strategie where at many times it might fail thus making it more challenging. Like-minded to me means people that learn from playing the game and not those who look up class guide's, skill calculators etc.. Yes I know "we"  are rare....

    If I want more of a relaxe mode and still use strategie I'll choose the trinity, everyone knows their role and position, there are no real suprises within the group, unless it might be a random pug. But playing trinity with those you know does get you from point A to point B much faster thus slightly less challenging for me.

    Both need communications with eachother though the non-trinity game might end up being zerg sooner then a trinity game.

     

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    lol, limit yourself to actual encounters. Of course games can ditch their combat system and do something else, it goes the same for non trinity games. But i dont see how that realtes that if you USE trinity you cant go outside of trinity boundaries (well techically you can, in every game there are different areas where you can just ignore combat system, pretty much in any area you can solo or "zerg"). Encounters where numbers are diligently adjusted for certain group composition will require that group composition or very slight varience (dont need 3 healers but 2 or some such)

    4E was the worst edition and i think it was shortest lived.

    And you get to the point of it, combat was never really highlight of pnp. It wasnt supposed to be goal. pnp wanst supposed to be just combat simulator. In fact, in good campaigns and crpgs there was usually way to completely avoid combat. That is the difference between crpg and hack&slash games. But that also goes beyond trinity.

    And you can have puzzles in non-trinity combat systems, but thats the whole point, you arent limited just to that, trinity pigeonholes you to just that. Now. that wouldnt be so bad if there was a lot of varince, asfter all, how long does rubiks cube stay ineteresting once youve solved it.

    And no, someone poking you with a stick, hitting you in the head or walking on thin rope while youre doing your rubiks cube doesnt change the fact youre still doing rubiks cube. All those things are irrelevant to the fact that youre still doing rubiks cube, and there are lot of stuff that can be in place of that rubiks cube WHILE you still can have all those exetrnal....stuff.

    I did limit myself to encounters. Flame Leviathan was an encounter.  It did go outside the boundaries of trinity rules.

    I'm really not sure what you're getting at.  If your criticism is an inability to screw around too much with class ratios ("we need 2 tanks and 5 healers for this fight") then I'm not sure I'd agree with that.  Without needing tanks, healers, and DPS, you'd just have some random mix of classes and none of those strategic-level decisions would matter.  The need for a specific mix is why those strategic decisions exist.

    I agree 4E wasn't popular, but that wasn't a failing of the trinity elements it added.  It was that the PnP market generally didn't want good combat, they wanted short combat.

    As for rubik's cubes, in part that's just the game that's been designed. "Variations on a rubik's cube" is simply the design they use to get to that point -- they design core rubiks cubes for heal/tank/DPS, create variants for each class, create bosses which deliberately alter the optimal solution, and allow teammate performance to alter your optimal solution.  With all of these dynamic factors, the puzzle ends up remaining interesting a very long time.

    It's easy to say you're tired of rubik's cubes, but if you want to play another puzzle, you generally just play another genre (which is sort of what I was getting at in my earlier post that mentioned fighting game combat.)

    The reason this approach is based in how difficult it is to create one enjoyable rubik's cube (which you can see in the mediocre combat of most MMORPGs: it's hard to create fun combat.)  So instead of trying to create 5+ different enjoyable puzzles, you focus on getting the one puzzle right, and making it very varied and dynamic.  It's easy to ask for 5+ different puzzles, but realistically it isn't going to happen.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

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