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Trinity is still the superior combat mechanic, by a large margin.

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  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Endariok
    Originally posted by aesperus

    What the trinity is superior at, is providing a combat experience for people who want familiar roles, that they don't have to think much about. That might sound harsh, but it's absolutely true.

    What the trinity doesn't do is add depth to combat (in fact it actively seeks to do the exact opposite), it doesn't add complexity, and it only adds the bare minimum of strategy.

    While I won't argue that (when it comes to MMOs) many of the newer games trying to break away from the trinity mold haven't done the best job of it; this doesn't automatically mean that the trinity model is the only option. An opinion which the OP (and many others) seems to default to.

    There are games without trinities that have amazing combat. People like to point to GW2 as a a failed experiment, but it's ironically not. The biggest problem w/ GW2 is that much of the AI from launch was done poorly (which you cannot have in non-trinity games). With the newer content they've actively been fixing this one step at a time, and the game actually is having more varied boss encounters, with mechanics that require a multitude of specs, strategies, and approaches to beat.

    And there in lies the problem and main difference between the two. The trinity is by far the easiest model to implement. It's about as simplistic as you can possibly get, which means that designers don't really have to flex their brain as much to get a functional trinity system in play. Non-trinity models are much less tread ground. There's a lot more room for experimentation, but there's also a lot more room for error. It's much easier to screw up a non-trinity game than it is to ruin a trinity one.

    Imho, I prefer non-trinity models. They're still improving sure, but they add more depth to the combat. There's a lot more potential for interesting fights, and they force you to think and use your imagination more. All things I look for in games I play. I like using my brain when I play, I don't like games that have you unplug and play in a semi-coma state of satisfaction.

    Insisting these things are true does not make them true.  My opinion differs from your's regarding which system I would rather play; but stating the fact that one is inherently superior, more complex, or easier than another is going to require more than what you've presented here.

    In an encounter involving trinity mechanics, only the least successful players turn off their brains which brings with it the potential (depending on the encounter) to wipe the entire group.  There are constant decisions that need to be made to in order to succeed.  It takes execution and skill with character mechanics, environmental mechanics, and NPC mechanics.  Having played both systems, I would say they require a similar level of execution and skill.  Different roles in different encounters can be daunting.  There are fights that challenge singular roles more than others and many fights that challenge them all equally.

    From a development perspective, I would not say that crafting intricate and interesting boss encounters was simplistic.  Consider all the mechanics that the devs need to implement and keep track of, not just encounter mechanics but interactions with character mechanics.  If this was simple, we would see it done with great success much more often.  To be sure, there are plenty failures proving that it is not as simple as some assume.

    Of course, it depends on the game.  Some games are crap, with little development time put into anything.  In the case of little care given to encounter or character development, which would be easier?  Creating three distinct roles and designing characters to fill them, or creating one roll with minor variations and the only requirement to succeed at that role being to survive?  I would contend that the task involving more variables was more complex.

    Personally, I had great hopes for GW2 when it launched and i continue to support those hopes.  It is clear that Arenanet put a great deal of time and care into their craft, and I am sure they can create a compelling experience without the trinity.  It just isn't compelling for me, yet.

    You see, even tirnity games employ NON trinity elements to make trinity games have some semblance of difficulty, since nothing you listed is connected to trinity, those are NON trinity related elements.

    And yes, inserting non trinity elemnts in trinity fights is hardest task, BUT they are still chained/limited to be withing framework of trinity and cannot overstep those because it would break the encounter

    but im glad that you see that its actually NON trinity elements make things interesting, and im glad you can concluse that trnity "works" BECAUSE its simple.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,065
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    ...collision detection, smart AI, skill-based systems, turn-based systems...

     

    But you go ahead and write your own history. You're doing juuust fine. 

    Unfortunately still far from being a reality in a open world massive environment.

    When they can do it though, things will be fun.

    I guess UO, AC, EVE, and Wizard 101 are now no longer MMOs. 

    UO not being a 3D game puts it in a special category, as you can do things with a 2D game that aren't as simple with a 3D game.

    Compared to the level of something you can do in a controlled environment, MMOs' AI and collision detection are miles behind.

    One just needs to compare GW1 to GW2.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,065
    Originally posted by Malabooga
     

    but im glad that you see that its actually NON trinity elements make things interesting, and im glad you can concluse that trnity "works" BECAUSE its simple.

    The holy trinity came to life exactly because it is the simpler to code for MMO environment.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by joeballs
    Originally posted by NightHaveN
    Group content is good when there is a constant flux of players. But after 2 or 3 years when a MMO starts getting old, and not that many players are leveling around you start having problems finding a group to do group content.

    And f2p model doesn't fix that. Swtor has constant flux of players early. But from Alderaan and later is very difficult to get one.

    At that point, if the game is that unpopular, I wouldn't even want to play solo. It's called massively "multiplayer" for a reason. It's really sad that a lot of the current designs are geared toward the solo player. Aren't there enough open world single player games these days? If that's your thing, go play those. Mmo game design needs to back-peddle several years when they started to get the multiplayer game design right. They really lost it along the way. Now they're just single player games with players running around and individually hammering through the content. 

    Actually its other way around: other online multiplayer games got multiplayer right and MMOs have to resort to solo design but are still failing because they insist still having some "old school" inherent flaws implemented in them.

  • NightfyreNightfyre Member UncommonPosts: 197

    Trinity is nice, I have enjoyed them.  Least the healer part, where I know what my main role is.  The downside to it if any of you have played WoW is the queue.  If you are a DPS, you can expect a long wait time as compared to a Healer and the near Instant Queue Tank.

    Games like Guild Wars 2 where any combination of character make-up can play together is a quick way of starting a group. 

    As long as their is some form of regeneration or support basis in games where Trinity is excluded, I'm okay with it.  I think Guild Wars 2 did a decent job of that, by giving at least everyone some form of group regeneration or buffing ability.  With a couple classes that were slightly better at it.

    Trinity isn't bad, you know your role and what you should be doing; but it's a forced role.  Where as games without this, don't punish you for not having the Tank or Healer.  They at least nudge you in a way to say, it's going to be more helpful if you have someone who has the ability to lessen damage, take a few enemies out of combat for the moment, or at least be able to regenerate your parties hit points as the battle progresses.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,015

    Trinity is the superior combat mechanic because there is no other. :)

    If not using trinity a free-for-all approach is used. There are exceptions but they need a different style of gameplay like Planetside which is a MMOFPS.

    Give us another actual group combat mechanic and we may find trinity is not tops. But that will not happen, the drive to solo play means you have to diminish the importance of groups, which is why trinity was dropped in the first place.

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  • stevebombsquadstevebombsquad Member UncommonPosts: 884
    Originally posted by Scot

    Trinity is the superior combat mechanic because there is no other. :)

    If not using trinity a free-for-all approach is used. There are exceptions but they need a different style of gameplay like Planetside which is a MMOFPS.

    Give us another actual group combat mechanic and we may find trinity is not tops. But that will not happen, the drive to solo play means you have to diminish the importance of groups, which is why trinity was dropped in the first place.

    I could not have said this better myself. 

    James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Scot

    Trinity is the superior combat mechanic because there is no other. :)

    If not using trinity a free-for-all approach is used. There are exceptions but they need a different style of gameplay like Planetside which is a MMOFPS.

    Give us another actual group combat mechanic and we may find trinity is not tops. But that will not happen, the drive to solo play means you have to diminish the importance of groups, which is why trinity was dropped in the first place.

    you cannot go more simple than trinity, so no, there will never be something "better" for YOU.

    And thats fine. But what trinity isnt: it isnt superior, its inferior.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    ...collision detection, smart AI, skill-based systems, turn-based systems...

     

    But you go ahead and write your own history. You're doing juuust fine. 

    Unfortunately still far from being a reality in a open world massive environment.

    When they can do it though, things will be fun.

    I guess UO, AC, EVE, and Wizard 101 are now no longer MMOs. 

    UO not being a 3D game puts it in a special category, as you can do things with a 2D game that aren't as simple with a 3D game.

    Compared to the level of something you can do in a controlled environment, MMOs' AI and collision detection are miles behind.

    One just needs to compare GW1 to GW2.

    Didn't see that one coming. image

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Atis-nobAtis-nob Member UncommonPosts: 98
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    The major alternative so far has been making every class a DPS class, and introduce dodging and evading attacks. Basically this is how 99% of the games from Korea work. It's basically console gameplay.

    I'm pretty sure you didnt try 99% of all korean mmo, not even 10%. Many popular korean games allow trinity in some form and dedicated players use it to maximize effectiveness.

     

    Trinity is easier to balance and encourages social activity but lacks creativity. Strict non-trinity design is either "everyone is same but looks different" or impossible to balance within reasonable time/budget.

     

    No wonder any worthy developer mixes both ways. Most common example would be "hybrid is self-sufficient but excels at nothing, narrow specialized guy depends on proper party but godlike in his role if used right"

     

    MMORPG genre is being rethought now, devs try new stuff in many directions so in the end even if their games fail we still get some data. More data - easier to make game where any solo player and any kind of party will have place and make sense.

     

    As for now, play classic mmos with your beloved trinity and leave "twitch is an only skill" people to their toys.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    Yeah, and while fun AI is all nice and dandy even Soren says that GOOD AI is suted for multiplayer and fun AI is duited for single player.

    TO put it all into chess:

    GOOD chess AI: plays chess as it was supposed to be played

    FUN chess AI: makes same moves every time and lets you win once you know what moves to counter EVERY time.

    Now, why fun AI is bad: once you know the moves it gets uber boring very quickly and MMOs require you to repeat exactly SAME chess match dozens of times (even with non gameplay related hurdles and mandatory gear grind)

    You should listen what he actually says. If you want any longeivety in MMO good AI is way to go, because among other stuff it wouldnt invalidate "old" encounters

    He also says that in order to have FUN AI you have to leave lot of stuff off the table (thats where trinity comes in) so even before you start designing encounters youre already severly limited in what you can do - because of trinity.

    the thing is that by swelling of other online genres (and sub genres) its quite clear vast majority of people prefer GOOD (human like) AI in their online games over DUMB (fun?) AI MMOs provide. So, that will be one of the aspects that will have to be rethinked if the genre is to be revitalized.

    And thats directly tied to trinity as you can only have dumb AI for trinity combat system, smart AI breaks the trinity (just like it happens in PvP)

    Er, MMORPGs aren't simulated PVP.  They're coop PVE games, which means they're functionally identical to singleplayer games (except you play as a team to beat the puzzle.)

    Each boss is a puzzle.  Bosses do get old after a while, but bosses would be less fun in the first place if each one was a convoluted mess of abilities.

    You're not "severely" limited in what you can do with the trinity.  We could exhaustively name all the types of boss fights which were possible under the trinity's ruleset.  The disticnt bosses would go on and on.  A lot of unique challenges exist, in spite of the mild limitation.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,065
    Originally posted by Scot

    Trinity is the superior combat mechanic because there is no other. :)

    If not using trinity a free-for-all approach is used. There are exceptions but they need a different style of gameplay like Planetside which is a MMOFPS.

    Give us another actual group combat mechanic and we may find trinity is not tops. But that will not happen, the drive to solo play means you have to diminish the importance of groups, which is why trinity was dropped in the first place.

    Non holy trinity mechanics do not diminish the importance of the group - they diminish the importance of certain roles fullfiled by a single individual that the holy trinity glorify.

    All MMORPGs have a giant metric ton of solo play - the open world questing is all solo.

    The holy trinity only exist in the confines of certain instances or activities that are the minority of the gameplay.

    And of course there are alternatives to that.

    Look at Tequatl or the Triple Wurm encounters or the Silverwastes in GW2 - there are multiple roles to be filled or otherwise result in failure.

    A role doesn't have to be "I can take hits", "I can deal damage", "I can heal your damage".

    A role can be "I can escort the resource dolyak", "I can defend the outpost", "I can man the siege weapons", "I can scout".

    Why do computer games that can model certain aspects of the physical world have to use systems that P&P RPGs and card games (example, Lord of the Rings LCG) that cannot model the physical world?

     

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,065
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Didn't see that one coming. image

    I want a game with GW2 open world questing and individual combat (I prefer the movement heavy GW2 combat) combined with the "team mob" coherence and AI of GW1.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • TheRealDarkeusTheRealDarkeus Member UncommonPosts: 314

    I agree, there have been no good alternatives.

     

    And sorry, anybody who says GW2 offers roles is kidding themselves. Those builds are not even acknowledged to group with by most GW2 players. Zerker Gear is still king and the best role is to DPS zerg.

     

    It has not changed, and yes I own the damn game. I have four characters.... I quit because those four characters were just ending up the same and boring. Using control and CC in GW2 is not in anyway wanted by the players doing group content. They want DPS that can speed run dungeons and content. Bleh....

  • MuntzMuntz Member UncommonPosts: 332
    Originally posted by TheRealDarkeus

    I agree, there have been no good alternatives.

     

    And sorry, anybody who says GW2 offers roles is kidding themselves. Those builds are not even acknowledged to group with by most GW2 players. Zerker Gear is still king and the best role is to DPS zerg.

     

    It has not changed, and yes I own the damn game. I have four characters.... I quit because those four characters were just ending up the same and boring. Using control and CC in GW2 is not in anyway wanted by the players doing group content. They want DPS that can speed run dungeons and content. Bleh....

    Seems to me that  a non-trinity game the relies so heavey on DPS is bad mob AI.  More a kin to trinity game with strickly a  tank and spank mob AI which is also bad design.  GW2 could make it's combat more complex and in small areas does.  The thing is it isn't just one aspect of an MMO that makes it superior. There are certainly plenty of trinity games that are overly simplistic. 

  • TheRealDarkeusTheRealDarkeus Member UncommonPosts: 314
    Originally posted by Muntz
    Originally posted by TheRealDarkeus

    I agree, there have been no good alternatives.

     

    And sorry, anybody who says GW2 offers roles is kidding themselves. Those builds are not even acknowledged to group with by most GW2 players. Zerker Gear is still king and the best role is to DPS zerg.

     

    It has not changed, and yes I own the damn game. I have four characters.... I quit because those four characters were just ending up the same and boring. Using control and CC in GW2 is not in anyway wanted by the players doing group content. They want DPS that can speed run dungeons and content. Bleh....

    Seems to me that  a non-trinity game the relies so heavey on DPS is bad mob AI.  More a kin to trinity game with strickly a  tank and spank mob AI which is also bad design.  GW2 could make it's combat more complex and in small areas does.  The thing is it isn't just one aspect of an MMO that makes it superior. There are certainly plenty of trinity games that are overly simplistic. 

    Yeah, but all I am saying is that I find that there is no better alternative for MMO games than the trinity. I have not found one game that does not use it that I find fun. Roles are good. They keep everything somewhat orderly. And maybe it is bad mob AI but that really has not evolved much either. 

    I can't think of one MMO game where the mobs are not pretty much mindless obstacles. 

  • sketocafesketocafe Member UncommonPosts: 950
    The holy trinity isn't a combat mechanic. It's a player adaptation to the simple threat-table enemy behavior that devs just love to stick into their MMOs. When the trinity finally goes, I'll be happy about it because it'll mean that the lazy fucks have finally started putting meaningful resources into their enemy behavior.
  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    Yeah, and while fun AI is all nice and dandy even Soren says that GOOD AI is suted for multiplayer and fun AI is duited for single player.

    TO put it all into chess:

    GOOD chess AI: plays chess as it was supposed to be played

    FUN chess AI: makes same moves every time and lets you win once you know what moves to counter EVERY time.

    Now, why fun AI is bad: once you know the moves it gets uber boring very quickly and MMOs require you to repeat exactly SAME chess match dozens of times (even with non gameplay related hurdles and mandatory gear grind)

    You should listen what he actually says. If you want any longeivety in MMO good AI is way to go, because among other stuff it wouldnt invalidate "old" encounters

    He also says that in order to have FUN AI you have to leave lot of stuff off the table (thats where trinity comes in) so even before you start designing encounters youre already severly limited in what you can do - because of trinity.

    the thing is that by swelling of other online genres (and sub genres) its quite clear vast majority of people prefer GOOD (human like) AI in their online games over DUMB (fun?) AI MMOs provide. So, that will be one of the aspects that will have to be rethinked if the genre is to be revitalized.

    And thats directly tied to trinity as you can only have dumb AI for trinity combat system, smart AI breaks the trinity (just like it happens in PvP)

    Er, MMORPGs aren't simulated PVP.  They're coop PVE games, which means they're functionally identical to singleplayer games (except you play as a team to beat the puzzle.)

    Each boss is a puzzle.  Bosses do get old after a while, but bosses would be less fun in the first place if each one was a convoluted mess of abilities.

    You're not "severely" limited in what you can do with the trinity.  We could exhaustively name all the types of boss fights which were possible under the trinity's ruleset.  The disticnt bosses would go on and on.  A lot of unique challenges exist, in spite of the mild limitation.

    Did you even listened to video you linked?

    Of course trinity games are single player in a group beating a puzzle, thas how trinity works, every player has its own minigame to play. If everyone succeeds - good. No teamwork needed, no cooperation needed.

    Bosses get old after you beat them 2-3 times, since you are required to beat them 15+ times....yes vast majority would rather watch paint dry.

    You are severly limited. Try designing something that doesnt respect the trinity in trinity game. then come back and report. It gets interesting WHEN you use NON trinity related stuff and, well, you are severly limited in that, you know, framework of the trinity.

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by sketocafe
    The holy trinity isn't a combat mechanic. It's a player adaptation to the simple threat-table enemy behavior that devs just love to stick into their MMOs. When the trinity finally goes, I'll be happy about it because it'll mean that the lazy fucks have finally started putting meaningful resources into their enemy behavior.

    Its not player adaptation if its rooted in combat system. Yes, its lazy way for developers because 75% of encounter is already done before you even start making them. But that translates into borefest in the long run, and you are required to repeat them a lot in the long run. Usually when they design an encounter it stays exactly same until game shuts down.

  • stevebombsquadstevebombsquad Member UncommonPosts: 884
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    Yeah, and while fun AI is all nice and dandy even Soren says that GOOD AI is suted for multiplayer and fun AI is duited for single player.

    TO put it all into chess:

    GOOD chess AI: plays chess as it was supposed to be played

    FUN chess AI: makes same moves every time and lets you win once you know what moves to counter EVERY time.

    Now, why fun AI is bad: once you know the moves it gets uber boring very quickly and MMOs require you to repeat exactly SAME chess match dozens of times (even with non gameplay related hurdles and mandatory gear grind)

    You should listen what he actually says. If you want any longeivety in MMO good AI is way to go, because among other stuff it wouldnt invalidate "old" encounters

    He also says that in order to have FUN AI you have to leave lot of stuff off the table (thats where trinity comes in) so even before you start designing encounters youre already severly limited in what you can do - because of trinity.

    the thing is that by swelling of other online genres (and sub genres) its quite clear vast majority of people prefer GOOD (human like) AI in their online games over DUMB (fun?) AI MMOs provide. So, that will be one of the aspects that will have to be rethinked if the genre is to be revitalized.

    And thats directly tied to trinity as you can only have dumb AI for trinity combat system, smart AI breaks the trinity (just like it happens in PvP)

    Er, MMORPGs aren't simulated PVP.  They're coop PVE games, which means they're functionally identical to singleplayer games (except you play as a team to beat the puzzle.)

    Each boss is a puzzle.  Bosses do get old after a while, but bosses would be less fun in the first place if each one was a convoluted mess of abilities.

    You're not "severely" limited in what you can do with the trinity.  We could exhaustively name all the types of boss fights which were possible under the trinity's ruleset.  The disticnt bosses would go on and on.  A lot of unique challenges exist, in spite of the mild limitation.

    Didi you even listened to video you linked?

    Of course trinity games are single player in a group beating a puzzle, thas how trinity works, every player has its own minigame to play. If everyone succeeds - good. No teamwork needed, no cooperation needed.

    Bosses get old after you beat them 2-3 times, since you are required to beat them 15+ times....yes vast majority would rather watch paint dry.

    You are severly limited. Try designing something that doesnt respect the trinity in trinity game. then come back and report. It gets interesting WHEN you use NON trinity related stuff and, well, you are severly limited in that, you know, framework of the trinity.

    I can tell that you have never actually done progression raiding. You make several comments which are make that obvious. I am not proclaiming the trinity as the greatest thing ever, but your comments have no basis. Also, there has yet to be a better system implemented that allows for team play. 

    James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    Yeah, and while fun AI is all nice and dandy even Soren says that GOOD AI is suted for multiplayer and fun AI is duited for single player.

    TO put it all into chess:

    GOOD chess AI: plays chess as it was supposed to be played

    FUN chess AI: makes same moves every time and lets you win once you know what moves to counter EVERY time.

    Now, why fun AI is bad: once you know the moves it gets uber boring very quickly and MMOs require you to repeat exactly SAME chess match dozens of times (even with non gameplay related hurdles and mandatory gear grind)

    You should listen what he actually says. If you want any longeivety in MMO good AI is way to go, because among other stuff it wouldnt invalidate "old" encounters

    He also says that in order to have FUN AI you have to leave lot of stuff off the table (thats where trinity comes in) so even before you start designing encounters youre already severly limited in what you can do - because of trinity.

    the thing is that by swelling of other online genres (and sub genres) its quite clear vast majority of people prefer GOOD (human like) AI in their online games over DUMB (fun?) AI MMOs provide. So, that will be one of the aspects that will have to be rethinked if the genre is to be revitalized.

    And thats directly tied to trinity as you can only have dumb AI for trinity combat system, smart AI breaks the trinity (just like it happens in PvP)

    Er, MMORPGs aren't simulated PVP.  They're coop PVE games, which means they're functionally identical to singleplayer games (except you play as a team to beat the puzzle.)

    Each boss is a puzzle.  Bosses do get old after a while, but bosses would be less fun in the first place if each one was a convoluted mess of abilities.

    You're not "severely" limited in what you can do with the trinity.  We could exhaustively name all the types of boss fights which were possible under the trinity's ruleset.  The disticnt bosses would go on and on.  A lot of unique challenges exist, in spite of the mild limitation.

    Didi you even listened to video you linked?

    Of course trinity games are single player in a group beating a puzzle, thas how trinity works, every player has its own minigame to play. If everyone succeeds - good. No teamwork needed, no cooperation needed.

    Bosses get old after you beat them 2-3 times, since you are required to beat them 15+ times....yes vast majority would rather watch paint dry.

    You are severly limited. Try designing something that doesnt respect the trinity in trinity game. then come back and report. It gets interesting WHEN you use NON trinity related stuff and, well, you are severly limited in that, you know, framework of the trinity.

    I can tell that you have never actually done progression raiding. You make several comments which are make that obvious. I am not proclaiming the trinity as the greatest thing ever, but your comments have no basis. Also, there has yet to be a better system implemented that allows for team play. 

    Uh huh.

    GW2 requires teamwork. You want to get healed? WORK for it, from positioning, to timing. Thats teamwork.

    OTOH healer in trinity plays whack a mole and pushes few buttons.

    You have no clue what youre talking about. And its obvious you cannot distinguish what is trinity and what isnt trinity. But thats a common problem here, so no worries.

  • stevebombsquadstevebombsquad Member UncommonPosts: 884
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    Yeah, and while fun AI is all nice and dandy even Soren says that GOOD AI is suted for multiplayer and fun AI is duited for single player.

    TO put it all into chess:

    GOOD chess AI: plays chess as it was supposed to be played

    FUN chess AI: makes same moves every time and lets you win once you know what moves to counter EVERY time.

    Now, why fun AI is bad: once you know the moves it gets uber boring very quickly and MMOs require you to repeat exactly SAME chess match dozens of times (even with non gameplay related hurdles and mandatory gear grind)

    You should listen what he actually says. If you want any longeivety in MMO good AI is way to go, because among other stuff it wouldnt invalidate "old" encounters

    He also says that in order to have FUN AI you have to leave lot of stuff off the table (thats where trinity comes in) so even before you start designing encounters youre already severly limited in what you can do - because of trinity.

    the thing is that by swelling of other online genres (and sub genres) its quite clear vast majority of people prefer GOOD (human like) AI in their online games over DUMB (fun?) AI MMOs provide. So, that will be one of the aspects that will have to be rethinked if the genre is to be revitalized.

    And thats directly tied to trinity as you can only have dumb AI for trinity combat system, smart AI breaks the trinity (just like it happens in PvP)

    Er, MMORPGs aren't simulated PVP.  They're coop PVE games, which means they're functionally identical to singleplayer games (except you play as a team to beat the puzzle.)

    Each boss is a puzzle.  Bosses do get old after a while, but bosses would be less fun in the first place if each one was a convoluted mess of abilities.

    You're not "severely" limited in what you can do with the trinity.  We could exhaustively name all the types of boss fights which were possible under the trinity's ruleset.  The disticnt bosses would go on and on.  A lot of unique challenges exist, in spite of the mild limitation.

    Didi you even listened to video you linked?

    Of course trinity games are single player in a group beating a puzzle, thas how trinity works, every player has its own minigame to play. If everyone succeeds - good. No teamwork needed, no cooperation needed.

    Bosses get old after you beat them 2-3 times, since you are required to beat them 15+ times....yes vast majority would rather watch paint dry.

    You are severly limited. Try designing something that doesnt respect the trinity in trinity game. then come back and report. It gets interesting WHEN you use NON trinity related stuff and, well, you are severly limited in that, you know, framework of the trinity.

    I can tell that you have never actually done progression raiding. You make several comments which are make that obvious. I am not proclaiming the trinity as the greatest thing ever, but your comments have no basis. Also, there has yet to be a better system implemented that allows for team play. 

    Uh huh.

    GW2 requires teamwork. You want to get healed? WORK for it, from positioning, to timing. Thats teamwork.

    OTOH healer in trinity plays whack a mole and pushes few buttons.

    You have no clue what youre talking about. And its obvious you cannot distinguish what is trinity and what isnt trinity. But thats a common problem here, so no worries.

    Uhh maybe you don't understand what a team is? It is impossible to play a trinity game without a team. If you think healing is only playing whack-a-mole, then you never did progression raiding. I realize you are just making comments in an attempt to bait people, and I am sure most people realize that. BTW, GW2 didn't really require much teamwork until the last few patches. 

    James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    Yeah, and while fun AI is all nice and dandy even Soren says that GOOD AI is suted for multiplayer and fun AI is duited for single player.

    TO put it all into chess:

    GOOD chess AI: plays chess as it was supposed to be played

    FUN chess AI: makes same moves every time and lets you win once you know what moves to counter EVERY time.

    Now, why fun AI is bad: once you know the moves it gets uber boring very quickly and MMOs require you to repeat exactly SAME chess match dozens of times (even with non gameplay related hurdles and mandatory gear grind)

    You should listen what he actually says. If you want any longeivety in MMO good AI is way to go, because among other stuff it wouldnt invalidate "old" encounters

    He also says that in order to have FUN AI you have to leave lot of stuff off the table (thats where trinity comes in) so even before you start designing encounters youre already severly limited in what you can do - because of trinity.

    the thing is that by swelling of other online genres (and sub genres) its quite clear vast majority of people prefer GOOD (human like) AI in their online games over DUMB (fun?) AI MMOs provide. So, that will be one of the aspects that will have to be rethinked if the genre is to be revitalized.

    And thats directly tied to trinity as you can only have dumb AI for trinity combat system, smart AI breaks the trinity (just like it happens in PvP)

    Er, MMORPGs aren't simulated PVP.  They're coop PVE games, which means they're functionally identical to singleplayer games (except you play as a team to beat the puzzle.)

    Each boss is a puzzle.  Bosses do get old after a while, but bosses would be less fun in the first place if each one was a convoluted mess of abilities.

    You're not "severely" limited in what you can do with the trinity.  We could exhaustively name all the types of boss fights which were possible under the trinity's ruleset.  The disticnt bosses would go on and on.  A lot of unique challenges exist, in spite of the mild limitation.

    Didi you even listened to video you linked?

    Of course trinity games are single player in a group beating a puzzle, thas how trinity works, every player has its own minigame to play. If everyone succeeds - good. No teamwork needed, no cooperation needed.

    Bosses get old after you beat them 2-3 times, since you are required to beat them 15+ times....yes vast majority would rather watch paint dry.

    You are severly limited. Try designing something that doesnt respect the trinity in trinity game. then come back and report. It gets interesting WHEN you use NON trinity related stuff and, well, you are severly limited in that, you know, framework of the trinity.

    I can tell that you have never actually done progression raiding. You make several comments which are make that obvious. I am not proclaiming the trinity as the greatest thing ever, but your comments have no basis. Also, there has yet to be a better system implemented that allows for team play. 

    Uh huh.

    GW2 requires teamwork. You want to get healed? WORK for it, from positioning, to timing. Thats teamwork.

    OTOH healer in trinity plays whack a mole and pushes few buttons.

    You have no clue what youre talking about. And its obvious you cannot distinguish what is trinity and what isnt trinity. But thats a common problem here, so no worries.

    Uhh maybe you don't understand what a team is? It is impossible to play a trinity game without a team. If you think healing is only playing whack-a-mole, then you never did progression raiding. I realize you are just making comments in an attempt to bait people, and I am sure most people realize that. BTW, GW2 didn't really require much teamwork until the last few patches. 

    Its impossible to play trinity game (false, you can solo in pretty much every trinity game) without a GROUP. Yes, there is a diference you are oblivious to. And its a crucial difference.

    Please, explain in great detail what anyone has to do to get healed in trinity game except healer presing 1 button.

  • stevebombsquadstevebombsquad Member UncommonPosts: 884
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Malabooga

    Yeah, and while fun AI is all nice and dandy even Soren says that GOOD AI is suted for multiplayer and fun AI is duited for single player.

    TO put it all into chess:

    GOOD chess AI: plays chess as it was supposed to be played

    FUN chess AI: makes same moves every time and lets you win once you know what moves to counter EVERY time.

    Now, why fun AI is bad: once you know the moves it gets uber boring very quickly and MMOs require you to repeat exactly SAME chess match dozens of times (even with non gameplay related hurdles and mandatory gear grind)

    You should listen what he actually says. If you want any longeivety in MMO good AI is way to go, because among other stuff it wouldnt invalidate "old" encounters

    He also says that in order to have FUN AI you have to leave lot of stuff off the table (thats where trinity comes in) so even before you start designing encounters youre already severly limited in what you can do - because of trinity.

    the thing is that by swelling of other online genres (and sub genres) its quite clear vast majority of people prefer GOOD (human like) AI in their online games over DUMB (fun?) AI MMOs provide. So, that will be one of the aspects that will have to be rethinked if the genre is to be revitalized.

    And thats directly tied to trinity as you can only have dumb AI for trinity combat system, smart AI breaks the trinity (just like it happens in PvP)

    Er, MMORPGs aren't simulated PVP.  They're coop PVE games, which means they're functionally identical to singleplayer games (except you play as a team to beat the puzzle.)

    Each boss is a puzzle.  Bosses do get old after a while, but bosses would be less fun in the first place if each one was a convoluted mess of abilities.

    You're not "severely" limited in what you can do with the trinity.  We could exhaustively name all the types of boss fights which were possible under the trinity's ruleset.  The disticnt bosses would go on and on.  A lot of unique challenges exist, in spite of the mild limitation.

    Didi you even listened to video you linked?

    Of course trinity games are single player in a group beating a puzzle, thas how trinity works, every player has its own minigame to play. If everyone succeeds - good. No teamwork needed, no cooperation needed.

    Bosses get old after you beat them 2-3 times, since you are required to beat them 15+ times....yes vast majority would rather watch paint dry.

    You are severly limited. Try designing something that doesnt respect the trinity in trinity game. then come back and report. It gets interesting WHEN you use NON trinity related stuff and, well, you are severly limited in that, you know, framework of the trinity.

    I can tell that you have never actually done progression raiding. You make several comments which are make that obvious. I am not proclaiming the trinity as the greatest thing ever, but your comments have no basis. Also, there has yet to be a better system implemented that allows for team play. 

    Uh huh.

    GW2 requires teamwork. You want to get healed? WORK for it, from positioning, to timing. Thats teamwork.

    OTOH healer in trinity plays whack a mole and pushes few buttons.

    You have no clue what youre talking about. And its obvious you cannot distinguish what is trinity and what isnt trinity. But thats a common problem here, so no worries.

    Uhh maybe you don't understand what a team is? It is impossible to play a trinity game without a team. If you think healing is only playing whack-a-mole, then you never did progression raiding. I realize you are just making comments in an attempt to bait people, and I am sure most people realize that. BTW, GW2 didn't really require much teamwork until the last few patches. 

    Its impossible to play trinity game (false, you can solo in pretty much every trinity game) without a GROUP. Yes, there is a diference you are oblivious to. And its a crucial difference.

    Please, explain in great detail what anyone has to do to get healed in trinity game except healer presing 1 button.

    Pressing 1?  Hahaha That is what you do with the majority of the content in GW2. Zerg, spam, rez! I am not bashing GW2s combat as it has complexity. They just have not made adequate content for it until very recently. There is a whole lot more to playing healer than pressing a single button, but again you prove my point in that you have no real concept of the trinity because you have never played it on more than a casual level. Unlike you, I can accept the fact that both systems serve their purpose and appeal to different folks. 

    James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,065
    Originally posted by TheRealDarkeus

    I agree, there have been no good alternatives.

     

    And sorry, anybody who says GW2 offers roles is kidding themselves. Those builds are not even acknowledged to group with by most GW2 players. Zerker Gear is still king and the best role is to DPS zerg.

     

    It has not changed, and yes I own the damn game. I have four characters.... I quit because those four characters were just ending up the same and boring. Using control and CC in GW2 is not in anyway wanted by the players doing group content. They want DPS that can speed run dungeons and content. Bleh....

    Zerker gear is not the king for Tequatl, triple wurm or places like dry top and silverwastes.

    In fact zerker gear is not even the best for some of the fractals, that simply are ignored by the meta community since zerker gear can't do them in an efficient manner.

    But even more interesting is the fact that my support guardian or mesmer can be using zerker gear because support in GW2 doesn't rely on the gear.

    Anet is changing defiant and how conditions stack with HoT.

    That plus the already mentioned changes seen in silverwastes and dry top can lead to a significantly different game where gear and CC usage is concerned.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

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