Quantcast

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Trinity is still the superior combat mechanic, by a large margin.

2456715

Comments

  • IfrianMMOIfrianMMO Member UncommonPosts: 248

    How is any combat system "he superior combat mechanic" to begin with?

    I personally favor Japanese Online Action RPGS (Such as Phantasy Star Online 2) because your personal skill matters a lot, the action is real time (So you have to block, dodge and anticipate attacks) but you still have to be a part of a cohesive unit and some bosses cannot be defeated unless the party organizes to exploit some mechanics.

    To make a very simple example, there is a boss that attacks you on a "ship" (think of levi in FFXIV) and you have to balance both DPSing him and harpooning him because otherwise he just swim away and begins to throw one-hit KO lasers around.

    Whle this may sound simple on text,  to manage enough harpoons while dodging in real time and attempting not to die to the absurd amount of traps, minions and omfgimafiringmahlazors is something really exciting and challenging.

    But that does not mean the battle system is "superior" to something else, it simply means that such a battle system is what i enjoy doing and how i enjoy fighting stuff.

    I think this kind of stuff is extremely subjective and there is no definite answer because it depends on whatever you like.

    image
  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,140

    If you grew up playing console games you think its just wonderful.  Its the only way you know how to play so if it doesn't play like their favorite Play Station game the combat sucks.

    The trinity requires real communication, allot of the people playing MMO's today don't want to communicate, they just want to show up to the fight, dodge here and there spam the DPS button, self heal and grab the loot.

  • IfrianMMOIfrianMMO Member UncommonPosts: 248

     I just find it funny how trinitiers need to feel superior to us actioners just because.

    I will not even get into the whole "action games have no community and only attract anti-social players" because it is so ridiculously wrong and cute that one cannot take it more seriously than when a little kid tells you that Santa is real.

    Heck, the very game i play has a community that not only has been tight and staid together since the 90´s but has even went as far as to 100%fan translate, support, proxy, and help build the game as the latest version never made it to the west.

    But i guess it´s a bit like how you cannot go into any given MMORPG forum without finding wow bashers.

    People naturally need to feel that their choice is the superior choice for some weird reason.

    image
  • IncomparableIncomparable Member UncommonPosts: 1,116

    Sure its great combat for pve and raiding.

    However when tanks and healers are too integral for pvp, then whats the point of being a lesser class?

    With a trinity they ruin 1vs1 scenarios since its difficult to balance for that case. 

    And pvp would not be such a mess in a trinity system if people werent locked into their character after spending a lot of time to reach end game.

    At least a game like gw offered players a chance to pvp at end game. Im not sure how fair that was, but that option means a trinity system becomes less of an annyance in regards towards balance. If one class is OP and a person wants to win, or at least feel like they are contributing in pvp, they will play that OP class... since a trinity system can and has allowed players to play in end game pvp being almost completely useless as a dps class that does not perform their class role.

    Maybe that is why some games avoid pvp all together even if it is instanced. since they do not want to offer a gw solution, and they do not want to offer an imbalanced pvp experience that is basically a sham and psycological harassment of playing a useless class after investing a lot of time to reach that point in realization.

    edit;

    and imagine with healers out healing the top dps, which means a team with enough healers would be unkillable. So a pre made team against  a 'pick up group' would make the whole experience miserable for everyone in the pick up group and face roll easy for the other pre made group.

    “Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble”

  • GaendricGaendric Member UncommonPosts: 623

    I don't find either system "superior". It's a matter of the specific game's implementation, the player's personal taste and current mood really.

    Trinity can be implemented well, also badly. Same applies to action combat. In the end, you need some kind of combat structure or it all becomes a mess.

     

  • KinchyleKinchyle Member Posts: 309
    Keep kidding yourselves and the majority will keep laughing. The trinity is dead. had no place in any real MMO. Get over it.
  • reeereeereeereee Member UncommonPosts: 1,636
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by YashaX
    There are a lot of Korean mmos, what game in particular are you talking about?

    Vindictus, CO9, Black Desert, Blade&Soul, Blessed, ArcheAge, Cabal 2, etc.

    Almost all major MMO from Korea have made all classes into DPS classes where everyone is capable of soloing and where strictly defined roles are no longer required. The combat is no longer about strategy at a slow pace, but about who can mash the most combos together, exactly like on a console solo game.

    There have been numerous very successful trinity based Korean MMOs such as L2/Aion/Tera.  Why you feel the need to complain about Korean games when it was clearly gw2 that ruined the reputation of non-trinity combat is beyond me.

     

    It might be possible to make non-trinity combat that is good, but gw2 was the flagship game for non-trinity combat and it's combat just blew.  Whenever a game indicates that there will be no healing class the immediate reaction of the majority of MMO players is: well, I guess the combat will suck just like gw2's combat.

     

    Really until another high profile MMO comes along and does non-trinity combat well everyone is going to associate non-trinity combat with gw2.

  • SiveriaSiveria Member UncommonPosts: 1,414
    Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    Some people love to hate on trinity, but it is still the superior combat system.

    The major alternative so far has been ....

    ...collision detection, smart AI, skill-based systems, turn-based systems...

     

    But you go ahead and write your own history. You're doing juuust fine. 

    So the major alternative so far has been...Buzzwords? Sounds about right. The alternatives to the Trinity system have have been chaotic, zergy garbage.

    WAR had collision detection and still had the Trinity. S

    mart AI? In any mmo? Not really.

    Skill-based? Anything takes skill of some form or another. Turn-based also doesn't imply a lack of the Trinity. 

    Lets be honest here, there has yet to be a good alternative to the Tank/DPS-CC/Healer combo. Hell games that don't have a native Trinity system have it crammed in there by the playerbase. We did it in EVE with Incursions. We needed Healers (Logistics Cruisers) DPS (Pirate Faction Battleships) and in 20 and 40 man Incursions we had Tanks (Tank fit battleships that people Anchored to.)

    Pretty much no mmorpg has enemies with any real AI, raid bosses use pre programmed repetive patterns so you always know when boss A is going to use move B, its not AI when the boss is unable to randomly change it up. I also do not consider attacking person with highest threat much of an AI because of how basic it is. I remember raids before wow, where bosses often used completly randomized moves at random times. Not this shit today where every boss always does the same move at the same time in the same order. A boss is easy when you know exactly what its going to do, however when said boss is completly randomized you have to always be on your toes. Sadly, randomized raid bosses are a thing of the pass, casuals just cannot deal with them to well. MMO's have become the land of the casuals, its why so  many mmo's these days are pretty much single player games for most of the game. Even ff11 which was pretty much the last mmo where you needed a group, has gone heavily casualified mode.

    I used to love mmorpgs, but now a days? I kinda got bored of the genre due to nothing ever being diffrent. Doesn't matter what battle system etc, it always ends up being: solo till lv cap, then group for dungeons and do everything else solo. People these days will not group in most games if they aren't forced to. Its killing the genre.

    Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

    A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

    or

    B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

    Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  • silvermembersilvermember Member UncommonPosts: 526

    I see a lot of mentioning gw2 seeker meta, it goes to show you how dumb you are. Guild wars 2 roles are independent on the stats you wear. Don't get me wrong control is cur renting a weakness in gw2 but not support and obviously damage.

    gw2 support system works in ways that don't require getting locked in roles. A guardian in server gear can bring support in form of blocks, reflect, conditions removal, stability and buffs. Ele in regeneration, might, fire and water fields, condition removal etc. great players take advantage of the system to maximize efficiency, bad players go to form and whine about zerker meta, without knowing that stats are roles are not related.

    with that said it is easy to mess the complexity if you don't pvp or do any level content, most of vanilla gw2 is easy but again has nothing to do with roles and simply arena net not originally making difficult content.

  • joeballsjoeballs Member UncommonPosts: 163

    I agree with the concept that mmos have become more about solo classes which takes the multi out of massively multiplayer. The last few mmos I've played (ESO, GW2) have been some of the loneliest mmos I've ever played. Either no one groups or the grouping is on auto pilot (which takes the fun out of grouping). Even the 'LFG' tools seem like an after thought. I like mmos that enourage grouping whether you like it or not, because that's what multiplayer is all about.

    On the other hand, I disagree that Trinity is the best combat system. The best combat system is one where there are way more classes that are needed to win. Tank, healer, dps is is just too dumbed down for gameplay to hold one's interest. We've all 'been there, done that' way too many times. Next gen mmos need to have more specialized classes for different types of battles and dungeon crawls. Things like crowd control, backstabbing, traps, mechanical repairs, tech, and those types specialty classes need to come back again and be an important part of the game. Hit absorption, mashing heals, and endless blasting has run its course.

  • XiaokiXiaoki Member RarePosts: 3,358


    Originally posted by Kinchyle
    Keep kidding yourselves and the majority will keep laughing. The trinity is dead. had no place in any real MMO. Get over it.
    Majority? What majority? What the heck are you talking about?


    The most popular MMOs in the West are WoW, SWTOR and FF14. All Trinity MMOs.

    Korean MMOs arent big on Trinity combat but I definitely wouldnt call them the majority either.


    Seems the death of the Trinity has been greatly exaggerated.

  • PalaPala Member UncommonPosts: 312
    Action combat is so dull, trinity is by far the better system for MMORPGs. The only criticisms I see of the trinity is that people hate waiting to form a group and that some idiot shouts. Both of those criticism are not really about the trinity combat but more about player behaviour. Personally, I love playing as the healer so action combat games are just not for me.
  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Hrimnir
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    Some people love to hate on trinity, but it is still the superior combat system.

    The major alternative so far has been ....

    ...collision detection, smart AI, skill-based systems, turn-based systems...

     

    But you go ahead and write your own history. You're doing juuust fine. 

    Come on man, by far the most popular "action combat" mmo is GW2, the rest have all done pretty terribly (Tera, Wildstar, etc).  The only people who truly *like* those systems are the ones who hate trinity.  Everyone else either is indifferent or hates it.  And he is absolutely right, i put something like 300 hours into GW2 and not once, literally not once, did i ever see anyone doing anything other than zerging stuff.  I tried to get people to work together but i might as well have been talking to bricks.  People don't play games like that for the group experience, they play it because they're playing it like they would a single player RPG.

    People zerg stuff in tirnity games.

    Whats your point really? If you play on zerg levels, youll get zerg, no matter trinity or not.

    People like trinity because its simplistic, lazy combat system. Even to the point of calling it superior.

    Its superior just on subjective level, objectivly its inferior in every way. To each his own.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by joeballs

    I agree with the concept that mmos have become more about solo classes which takes the multi out of massively multiplayer. The last few mmos I've played (ESO, GW2) have been some of the loneliest mmos I've ever played. Either no one groups or the grouping is on auto pilot (which takes the fun out of grouping). Even the 'LFG' tools seem like an after thought. I like mmos that enourage grouping whether you like it or not, because that's what multiplayer is all about.

    On the other hand, I disagree that Trinity is the best combat system. The best combat system is one where there are way more classes that are needed to win. Tank, healer, dps is is just too dumbed down for gameplay to hold one's interest. We've all 'been there, done that' way too many times. Next gen mmos need to have more specialized classes for different types of battles and dungeon crawls. Things like crowd control, backstabbing, traps, mechanical repairs, tech, and those types specialty classes need to come back again and be an important part of the game. Hit absorption, mashing heals, and endless blasting has run its course.

    Agreed.

    I'm glad to see others talk about more roles, then just dps (zerg) action, and tank and spank/heals..   EQ was a great start, but somewhere down the line it changed..  People that are involved into role playing should have more to do, then dps mash buttons.. Pick pocketing should matter.. CC should be a bigger role in group play.. Along with many other forms of support.. However, the only way I see any of those roles coming back is "IF" the devs stop trying to balance the game for PvP Esport purposes..  There were dozens of skills and abilities that were forgotten because too many PvPer's whined that being CC for a minute was too OP..  Well tough shit..  Too many PvPer's whined they were kited to death.. Well tough shit.. 

    I think it would be fun to actually play a role as a rogue thief or similar and actually DO THIEVING, instead of support dps.. LOL   Playing a Paladin should be different then playing a warrior.. Playing a ranger should be something special out in the wilderness.. Allow me to track, and actually do ranger stuff..  EQ was a great start, but ..............................  Heck, just look how zones work now..  EQ zones were full of roaming wandering mobs, as well as static ones..  Nowadays, almost ALL the mobs are static "whack a moles".. Who needs to track something that never moves.. LOL

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Hrimnir
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    Some people love to hate on trinity, but it is still the superior combat system.

    The major alternative so far has been ....

    ...collision detection, smart AI, skill-based systems, turn-based systems...

     But you go ahead and write your own history. You're doing juuust fine. 

    Come on man, by far the most popular "action combat" mmo is GW2, the rest have all done pretty terribly (Tera, Wildstar, etc).  The only people who truly *like* those systems are the ones who hate trinity.  Everyone else either is indifferent or hates it.  And he is absolutely right, i put something like 300 hours into GW2 and not once, literally not once, did i ever see anyone doing anything other than zerging stuff.  I tried to get people to work together but i might as well have been talking to bricks.  People don't play games like that for the group experience, they play it because they're playing it like they would a single player RPG.

    People zerg stuff in tirnity games.

    Whats your point really? If you play on zerg levels, youll get zerg, no matter trinity or not.

    People like trinity because its simplistic, lazy combat system. Even to the point of calling it superior.

    Its superior just on subjective level, objectivly its inferior in every way. To each his own.

         Yes, anything can be zerged, but you fail to understand in the context that it's being used..  Zerging is just basically rushing the mob with numbers will little to no strategy or skill..   I've played GW2 and Tera of late and that is exactly how they play..  Both are action games that focus on complete solo ability..   I wouldn't call trinity combat lazy..  Any combat can be lazy if it's designed to be so..  I can play Call of Duty on "recruit" mode and just mindlessly shoot my way through the game without a care in the world..  Mobs are slow and inaccurate..  However, if I crank it up, I'll end up dying often from head shots 200m away..  Same game, same mechanics.. 

         Tera is a good example of that.. Mobs are slow to charge or attack me..  For crying out loud, I have the mob 1/2 dead before it even gets ONE chance to hit me, and even then it "telegraphs" it's move giving me plenty of time to move out of the way..  Tera is lazier and easier then playing Call of Duty on "recruit" mode.. LOL   However, I wouldn't use WoW as the poster child for good role combat either..  The overuse of "taunt" is just insanely borning, and turns the world into "AOE" combat which isn't any better then zergfest you see in GW2 or Tera.. 

         But as I have preached about for years..  I want to see a game that allows for solo/group combat in the open world, and gives us classes that fullfill over a DOZEN different roles.. But that isn't going to happen until we start ignoring PvP balance in a PvE game.. 

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Malabooga
    Originally posted by Hrimnir
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    Some people love to hate on trinity, but it is still the superior combat system.

    The major alternative so far has been ....

    ...collision detection, smart AI, skill-based systems, turn-based systems...

     But you go ahead and write your own history. You're doing juuust fine. 

    Come on man, by far the most popular "action combat" mmo is GW2, the rest have all done pretty terribly (Tera, Wildstar, etc).  The only people who truly *like* those systems are the ones who hate trinity.  Everyone else either is indifferent or hates it.  And he is absolutely right, i put something like 300 hours into GW2 and not once, literally not once, did i ever see anyone doing anything other than zerging stuff.  I tried to get people to work together but i might as well have been talking to bricks.  People don't play games like that for the group experience, they play it because they're playing it like they would a single player RPG.

    People zerg stuff in tirnity games.

    Whats your point really? If you play on zerg levels, youll get zerg, no matter trinity or not.

    People like trinity because its simplistic, lazy combat system. Even to the point of calling it superior.

    Its superior just on subjective level, objectivly its inferior in every way. To each his own.

         Yes, anything can be zerged, but you fail to understand in the context that it's being used..  Zerging is just basically rushing the mob with numbers will little to no strategy or skill..   I've played GW2 and Tera of late and that is exactly how they play..  Both are action games that focus on complete solo ability..   I wouldn't call trinity combat lazy..  Any combat can be lazy if it's designed to be so..  I can play Call of Duty on "recruit" mode and just mindlessly shoot my way through the game without a care in the world..  Mobs are slow and inaccurate..  However, if I crank it up, I'll end up dying often from head shots 200m away..  Same game, same mechanics.. 

         Tera is a good example of that.. Mobs are slow to charge or attack me..  For crying out loud, I have the mob 1/2 dead before it even gets ONE chance to hit me, and even then it "telegraphs" it's move giving me plenty of time to move out of the way..  Tera is lazier and easier then playing Call of Duty on "recruit" mode.. LOL   However, I wouldn't use WoW as the poster child for good role combat either..  The overuse of "taunt" is just insanely borning, and turns the world into "AOE" combat which isn't any better then zergfest you see in GW2 or Tera.. 

         But as I have preached about for years..  I want to see a game that allows for solo/group combat in the open world, and gives us classes that fullfill over a DOZEN different roles.. But that isn't going to happen until we start ignoring PvP balance in a PvE game.. 

    Thanks for agreeing with me on zerg thing, if it can be zerged it will be zerged.

    And TERA is aslo not good system, its bad mix of old and new. "AoEfest" happened in EVERY game, again, trinity or no trinity.

    And las, that can only happen if yu ditch trinity and make everyone be everything. And PvP balance is important, in PvE only thing that matters is "if you can beat it with certain stuff you want it to be beaten" because of uber stupid opponents. Devs wont make PvE on PvP level for obvious reasons - only 1% could compete (unless you again dumb mobs to act as bads)

    And, not just for you, using things that are not related to combat system as proof just shows you dont really understand what combat system is, and what combat system isnt.

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by joeballs

    I agree with the concept that mmos have become more about solo classes which takes the multi out of massively multiplayer. The last few mmos I've played (ESO, GW2) have been some of the loneliest mmos I've ever played. Either no one groups or the grouping is on auto pilot (which takes the fun out of grouping). Even the 'LFG' tools seem like an after thought. I like mmos that enourage grouping whether you like it or not, because that's what multiplayer is all about.

    On the other hand, I disagree that Trinity is the best combat system. The best combat system is one where there are way more classes that are needed to win. Tank, healer, dps is is just too dumbed down for gameplay to hold one's interest. We've all 'been there, done that' way too many times. Next gen mmos need to have more specialized classes for different types of battles and dungeon crawls. Things like crowd control, backstabbing, traps, mechanical repairs, tech, and those types specialty classes need to come back again and be an important part of the game. Hit absorption, mashing heals, and endless blasting has run its course.

    Agreed.

    I'm glad to see others talk about more roles, then just dps (zerg) action, and tank and spank/heals..   EQ was a great start, but somewhere down the line it changed..  People that are involved into role playing should have more to do, then dps mash buttons.. Pick pocketing should matter.. CC should be a bigger role in group play.. Along with many other forms of support.. However, the only way I see any of those roles coming back is "IF" the devs stop trying to balance the game for PvP Esport purposes..  There were dozens of skills and abilities that were forgotten because too many PvPer's whined that being CC for a minute was too OP..  Well tough shit..  Too many PvPer's whined they were kited to death.. Well tough shit.. 

    I think it would be fun to actually play a role as a rogue thief or similar and actually DO THIEVING, instead of support dps.. LOL   Playing a Paladin should be different then playing a warrior.. Playing a ranger should be something special out in the wilderness.. Allow me to track, and actually do ranger stuff..  EQ was a great start, but ..............................  Heck, just look how zones work now..  EQ zones were full of roaming wandering mobs, as well as static ones..  Nowadays, almost ALL the mobs are static "whack a moles".. Who needs to track something that never moves.. LOL

    CC was forgoten because CC is complete dumbifying of the game.

    EQ was faulty to the bone, and non combat abilites dont have any relevance to combat system. In LOTRO hobbits had feign death. No matter the class they were.

    Again, what do flavor out of combat skills have to do with trintiy or non trinity. In GW2 every class plays completely different. Even evey BUILD inside the class play completely different. That little fact beats one dimensional trinity classes.

  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,220

    Original Trinity

    The original trinity was Tank > Healer > Slower.  -- DPS, CC, Buffing, Pulling, De-buffing was secondary. I find it that dedicated roles is what makes better group gameplay. I believe the number one reason why players are not wanting the trinity gameplay is essentially because most of the time it's a rehash of the same gameplay over and over as well as they believe it's too simplistic/boring. Games like Gw2 tried to redefine the trinity by omitting the healing class which they failed as the trinity gameplay. In the modern age of MMORPGS, the most popular form of the trinity is tank, dps and healing. I believe that is what you need to accomplish the trinity at a very basic level.

     

    There is a solution to the trinity. It's not omitting the trinity it's improving the type of gameplay.

    "Aggro" gameplay is the number 1 type of gameplay that is associated with the trinity combat mechanics.  I believe to improve the trinity is to also redefine the aggro gameplay and redefine what a "tank" role is.

     

    In order to redefine the Tank Role you have to redefine group dynamics and overall combat mechanics. By redefine the aggro mechanic then that means the group of players are not focusing on one NPC to down it. So what is left? The only way I can imagine is that each player has their own definitive role but has their own individual responsibility. However, the group of players must act as one cohesive unit to survive.

     

    Redefining the Tank Role - A new way of looking at it

    When you redefine the tanking role and changing what "aggro" means all other classes gameplay slightly changes as well. However, the change is not on a role level, it's on an archetype level. That means melee vs. melee, caster vs caster/healer naturally. If that is the case then every melee class is considered a "tank".

     

    The connotation of the tanking role is a defensive role. If every melee class is tank that doesn't mean that every melee class should be defensive. The type of gameplay would be that melee classes are keeping other melee NPCs off the casters and off the healers. Whereas, the caster classes are keeping the caster nps off the melee characters.

     

    Now I know most of you immediately are going to say that this seems like very linear and bland gameplay or consider it still solo oriented. On this level yes. The way to make this new type of gameplay more engaging is to having good designing elements in different avenues of gameplay.

     

    New Trinity Gameplay and how to make it interesting

    There 3 gameplay elements that must be affected if this new type of trinity gameplay is going to be effective.

     

    Adaptable Combat Mechanics

    • Allow dozens of pathways to victory instead of a singular rotation.
    • Allow combat mechanics to give the player ample opportunity to adapt outside of their class abilities.
    • Give player variety and diversity of class skills/abilities/spells.
    • All classes have the ability to adapt in their specified role.

    Adaptable AI

    • This must complement player adaptable combat mechanics.
    • Pattern detection to negate spam/singular rotations
    • Allow different cultures of NPCs to fight and think a certain way (aggresive, passive aggressive, or conservative way of fighting) Which allows players to learn the game and understand their opponent better.
    The World is Communal - Allows for grouping content
    • The world is dangerous, challenging to go out alone.
    • Allow NPC's to be communal and roam in groups (any sizes).
    • Encourages group gameplay over solo gameplay
    • Encourages any player group size - More roles you have the more effective, the less roles or players you have in group the more challenge for survival.
    • Helps keep intact of the new Trinity Concept.
     
    I hope you can see what I see here. To me this is a new way to improve overall pve gameplay and redefine the aggro and tanking mechanic but yet still have heavy focus on group gameplay. I am very much in favor of this new style of gameplay as I am incorporating it in my own designs. I have just given a very basic on the surface outline so you can see the example. There is a method to this madness in greater detail that I would be willing to discuss if you send me a private message.

     

     

     

     

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,208
    Many people dont realize that trinity is best because of the grind at end game. That's the main thing I have to have if I even THINK of playing a game. Sure you can have fun in action combat but its not realistic if you have to grind for stuff, which almost every mmorpg has a grind for something. And if you're grinding you're gonna wanna do it as easy as possible. Not bust your fingers doing stuff over and over again cause it keeps you "engaged." At the end of the day, most people would prefer a mind grind if they had to do it vs an "engaging" grind cause it ends up not being worth the effort.
  • HeretiqueHeretique Member RarePosts: 1,500
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    Some people love to hate on trinity, but it is still the superior combat system.

    The major alternative so far has been making every class a DPS class, and introduce dodging and evading attacks. Basically this is how 99% of the games from Korea work. It's basically console gameplay.

    The problem is that it's solo gameplay, even in a group, you're basically a class that solos, you don't talk during the battle, you don't ask for heals or ask for support, there's no designated CC or designated puller, no designated tank, you basically...mash buttons and constantly dodge.

    I just can't wrap my head around how people think this is good. It's bad, pretty awful compared to trinity where your group is dependent on each other, and where everyone has a well defined function.

    Combat in Korean MMO is too easy, boring and repetitive.

    Raids in those Korean MMO are even worse, they're zergs, they really are, there is no cooperation, no class officers, no preparation, just mash those buttons.

     

    This action style combat has other downsides, the fact those games lack any form of community, why socialise when you can just solo everything and don't depend on anyone. It actually attracts console players, and anti-social people. It's mindless zerg and there is no sense of community or hierarchy or class definition.

     

    Combat in MMO has become stupid, it's so dumbed down to the point of being dumber than console combat.

     

    Ahh this thread again, opinions are facts, forgot.

  • PixelPersonaPixelPersona Member UncommonPosts: 23
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by YashaX
    There are a lot of Korean mmos, what game in particular are you talking about?

    Vindictus, CO9, Black Desert, Blade&Sould, Blessed, ArcheAge, Cabal 2, etc.

    Almost all major MMO from Korea have made all classes into DPS classes where everyone is capable of soloing and where strictly defined roles are no longer required.

    Yes, in Vindictus, all classes can do damage. That game has replaced the Trinity with action combat, a non-taunt aggro system and gameplay that is far more engaged for all participants involved. In Vindictus, you can chain down your enemy. With some of them, there are different results, depending on where you hit them. I haven't played in a few years, but I remember one battle where part of the team was dedicated to actually crippling the boss, bringing him to his knees with carefully placed javelin shots and then struggling to pull the javelin's chains in different directions to hold the bastard still. 

    If you refuse to acknowledge that the game completely changes once you replace taunt-based aggro with any of several other combat systems, then yes... everything else is just DPS DPS DPS. UO and AC? Just DPS. EVE, just DPS. Wizard 101? Just DPS. ALL PVP EVER... just DPS. 

     

    EDIT: Well said, stayontarget.

    WAR was one of the few PvP games that got tanks correct. Taunt actually did something, debuffing, CC'ing were your main jobs. Now a days its DPS or go home.

  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,559
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by YashaX
    There are a lot of Korean mmos, what game in particular are you talking about?

    Vindictus, CO9, Black Desert, Blade&Soul, Blessed, ArcheAge, Cabal 2, etc.

    Almost all major MMO from Korea have made all classes into DPS classes where everyone is capable of soloing and where strictly defined roles are no longer required. The combat is no longer about strategy at a slow pace, but about who can mash the most combos together, exactly like on a console solo game.

    Vindictus and Co9 are not mmos, they are meant to have action hack and slash gameplay. Black Desert, Bless and Cabal 2 have either not been released or not released in the West, Blade and Soul still hasn't come over to the West, and Archage is a tab target game.

     

    I mean what mmos have you actually played from Korea that prove your non-argument that "trinity is superior" and that Korean mmos are all crap?

     

    For example have you played Tera? Korean game with "trinity" and action combat. Aion? Korean game with tab-target and tank/spank. I'm sure others can add to the list....

     

    Btw- combat in older mmos was never particularly strategic in the first place, more like mind-numbingly boring.

    ....
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Endariok
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Dr_Shivinski
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    Some people love to hate on trinity, but it is still the superior combat system.

    The major alternative so far has been ....

    ...collision detection, smart AI, skill-based systems, turn-based systems...

     

    But you go ahead and write your own history. You're doing juuust fine. 

    So the major alternative so far has been...Buzzwords? Sounds about right. The alternatives to the Trinity system have have been chaotic, zergy garbage.

    WAR had collision detection and still had the Trinity. S

    mart AI? In any mmo? Not really.

    Skill-based? Anything takes skill of some form or another. Turn-based also doesn't imply a lack of the Trinity. 

    Lets be honest here, there has yet to be a good alternative to the Tank/DPS-CC/Healer combo. Hell games that don't have a native Trinity system have it crammed in there by the playerbase. We did it in EVE with Incursions. We needed Healers (Logistics Cruisers) DPS (Pirate Faction Battleships) and in 20 and 40 man Incursions we had Tanks (Tank fit battleships that people Anchored to.)

    You say EVE has Trinity combat and then cite as your example Incursions, home of Sleeper AI. 

    Added a link to help you out. 

     

    Hmm, incredulity mixed with sarcasm or genuine ignorance?  I can't really tell.  The fact is that a trinity setup is actually quite good at dealing with Sleeper AI.  Its all there, the tank battleship holds aggro, the healers (logi cruisers or triage carriers) heal and the dps...well, dps.

    Either you don't understand what the trinity is, or I missed the memo on a new taunt skill that was added. 

     

    Look, any clown that says the trinity is DPS, Defense, and CC/Support is just that... a clown. EVERY conflict scenario has those roles. So, yeah... if you are going to look at combat as the roles of combat, EVERYTHING is trinity, which makes 'trinity' a pretty damn useless term for this conversation, as it has nothing to do with the difference in types of combat mechanics. I don't know why this crowd has so much problem with it, but that's the main reason this conversation gets nowhere. 

    Once you acknowledge what defines the trinity, then you can see beyond it. As long as you cling to the illogical and bizarre notion that trinity is referring to three of the multiple possible roles in a conflict scenario then you're no longer talking game mechanics and just waxing pedantic about universally understood roles in combat. 

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • PixelPersonaPixelPersona Member UncommonPosts: 23
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by joeballs

    I agree with the concept that mmos have become more about solo classes which takes the multi out of massively multiplayer. The last few mmos I've played (ESO, GW2) have been some of the loneliest mmos I've ever played. Either no one groups or the grouping is on auto pilot (which takes the fun out of grouping). Even the 'LFG' tools seem like an after thought. I like mmos that enourage grouping whether you like it or not, because that's what multiplayer is all about.

    On the other hand, I disagree that Trinity is the best combat system. The best combat system is one where there are way more classes that are needed to win. Tank, healer, dps is is just too dumbed down for gameplay to hold one's interest. We've all 'been there, done that' way too many times. Next gen mmos need to have more specialized classes for different types of battles and dungeon crawls. Things like crowd control, backstabbing, traps, mechanical repairs, tech, and those types specialty classes need to come back again and be an important part of the game. Hit absorption, mashing heals, and endless blasting has run its course.

    Agreed.

    I'm glad to see others talk about more roles, then just dps (zerg) action, and tank and spank/heals..   EQ was a great start, but somewhere down the line it changed..  People that are involved into role playing should have more to do, then dps mash buttons.. Pick pocketing should matter.. CC should be a bigger role in group play.. Along with many other forms of support.. However, the only way I see any of those roles coming back is "IF" the devs stop trying to balance the game for PvP Esport purposes..  There were dozens of skills and abilities that were forgotten because too many PvPer's whined that being CC for a minute was too OP..  Well tough shit..  Too many PvPer's whined they were kited to death.. Well tough shit.. 

    I think it would be fun to actually play a role as a rogue thief or similar and actually DO THIEVING, instead of support dps.. LOL   Playing a Paladin should be different then playing a warrior.. Playing a ranger should be something special out in the wilderness.. Allow me to track, and actually do ranger stuff..  EQ was a great start, but ..............................  Heck, just look how zones work now..  EQ zones were full of roaming wandering mobs, as well as static ones..  Nowadays, almost ALL the mobs are static "whack a moles".. Who needs to track something that never moves.. LOL

    Your rogue sounds like the old thieves from Shadowbane. You could steal other players or NPC's items/gold in their inventory. Scouts could see rogues on a tracking list and see them while invisible to hunt them down or track named mobs that dropped special skill stones for class upgrades.

    It's just to bad the game was bug ridden.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by PixelPersona

    Your rogue sounds like the old thieves from Shadowbane. You could steal other players or NPC's items/gold in their inventory. Scouts could see rogues on a tracking list and see them while invisible to hunt them down or track named mobs that dropped special skill stones for class upgrades.

    It's just to bad the game was bug ridden.

    The intel/counter-intel, cat-n-mouse gameplay of the rouges and scouts in SB was some of the most fun I had in MMOs. :) 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

Sign In or Register to comment.