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Trinity is still the superior combat mechanic, by a large margin.

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  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I gave up on group content in GW2 before I think I got enough experience with it to fully understand and appreciate the nuances. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

    I will consent to saying that the trinity is easier for me to understand, only because I've learned everything about it with years and years and years of practice in WoW since 2004, as well as other games like Rift, WAR, FFXI, SWTOR, FFXIV, etc.

    So I won't say one is truly better than the other, but due to my familiarity with trinity-based combat mechanics, I'd say that it gives designers a LOT of room and opportunity to create interesting mechanics and encounters.

    There are few challenges left for me outside of say raid-wide healing, which can certainly be a fun/difficult task, as over the years the rest has really devolved into simply memorizing patterns - pretty much learning dance moves and executing them.

    Go here, turn this way, move out of that, focus on this, now focus on that. Etc.

    The "art" of tanking/dps/cc etc. seems long gone from these games.

    When it was there, it was something truly special.

    You have your preferences, people just dont want to find out they like inferior stuff, i guess its just pride/ego thingy.

    For me, i own a car that is inferior to many other cars, but it fullfills everything i want from car to fullfill, and even has some advantages like super low maintenance cost and general cost/km. So i dont really give a shit there are superior cars out there :)

  • KanethKaneth Member RarePosts: 2,284
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I gave up on group content in GW2 before I think I got enough experience with it to fully understand and appreciate the nuances. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

    I will consent to saying that the trinity is easier for me to understand, only because I've learned everything about it with years and years and years of practice in WoW since 2004, as well as other games like Rift, WAR, FFXI, SWTOR, FFXIV, etc.

    So I won't say one is truly better than the other, but due to my familiarity with trinity-based combat mechanics, I'd say that it gives designers a LOT of room and opportunity to create interesting mechanics and encounters.

    There are few challenges left for me outside of say raid-wide healing, which can certainly be a fun/difficult task, as over the years the rest has really devolved into simply memorizing patterns - pretty much learning dance moves and executing them.

    Go here, turn this way, move out of that, focus on this, now focus on that. Etc.

    The "art" of tanking/dps/cc etc. seems long gone from these games.

    When it was there, it was something truly special.

    I think your first sentence describes a great many people, and many of those people are the ones who show random gifs and/or youtube videos of GW2 content to attempt to show the "zerginess" of the game. Even that Tequatl gif a few posts up doesn't even show the full picture of that encounter, since all it shows is the attack team doing what it's supposed to be doing...attacking. Of course, because they themselves don't understand the nuance to what they are viewing, they wind up looking completely ignorant to those who understand what is truly happening.

    Other things that might look random, but are completely coordinated are things like elementalists dropping water fields and people using blast finishers to create a ton of aoe healing or blasting fire fields for might stacking, whirling in a light field for condition removal, etc.

    I will always admit though that compared to something like WoW, GW2 style action combat is always going to look like mass chaos to most everyone.

    I will argue the point of when there was any "art" to the trinity. I don't feel like there was every truly an "art" to it, but rather the mechanics were tuned in such a way that a single mistake could cause a wipe. At the core though, Tanks still taunted, CC'ers still just CC'd and DPS folks DPSed. There hasn't been a fundamental change to the trinity in the nearly 20 years I have been playing mmos. Encounters have changed quite a bit, for the better for the most part.

  • lkell52lkell52 Member UncommonPosts: 2
    Originally posted by Pepeq

     

    Non-trinity is for people who know how to do more than one thing at a time.  I tank/heal/dps.

    What I died?  It was my fault.

     

    But it was the enemy's fault.. :(

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,349
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I gave up on group content in GW2 before I think I got enough experience with it to fully understand and appreciate the nuances. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

    I will consent to saying that the trinity is easier for me to understand, only because I've learned everything about it with years and years and years of practice in WoW since 2004, as well as other games like Rift, WAR, FFXI, SWTOR, FFXIV, etc.

    So I won't say one is truly better than the other, but due to my familiarity with trinity-based combat mechanics, I'd say that it gives designers a LOT of room and opportunity to create interesting mechanics and encounters.

    There are few challenges left for me outside of say raid-wide healing, which can certainly be a fun/difficult task, as over the years the rest has really devolved into simply memorizing patterns - pretty much learning dance moves and executing them.

    Go here, turn this way, move out of that, focus on this, now focus on that. Etc.

    The "art" of tanking/dps/cc etc. seems long gone from these games.

    When it was there, it was something truly special.

    GW2 was so lacking for me I did not get that far as well. We know trinity, so it is easy to do of the bat. But I am happy to try out a new combat system, the issue is we have trinity or a zerg. In the interests of easymode and solo play trinity was dropped, so we are not going to see other group combat systems.

    Group combat systems simply do not fit into where designers want MMO's heading.

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

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  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I gave up on group content in GW2 before I think I got enough experience with it to fully understand and appreciate the nuances. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

    I will consent to saying that the trinity is easier for me to understand, only because I've learned everything about it with years and years and years of practice in WoW since 2004, as well as other games like Rift, WAR, FFXI, SWTOR, FFXIV, etc.

    So I won't say one is truly better than the other, but due to my familiarity with trinity-based combat mechanics, I'd say that it gives designers a LOT of room and opportunity to create interesting mechanics and encounters.

    There are few challenges left for me outside of say raid-wide healing, which can certainly be a fun/difficult task, as over the years the rest has really devolved into simply memorizing patterns - pretty much learning dance moves and executing them.

    Go here, turn this way, move out of that, focus on this, now focus on that. Etc.

    The "art" of tanking/dps/cc etc. seems long gone from these games.

    When it was there, it was something truly special.

    GW2 was so lacking for me I did not get that far as well. We know trinity, so it is easy to do of the bat. But I am happy to try out a new combat system, the issue is we have trinity or a zerg. In the interests of easymode and solo play trinity was dropped, so we are not going to see other group combat systems.

    Group combat systems simply do not fit into where designers want MMO's heading.

    I love how simple and black & white your world is. You've got it all figured out, I see. How could anyone disagree with that?

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by Kaneth
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I gave up on group content in GW2 before I think I got enough experience with it to fully understand and appreciate the nuances. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

    I will consent to saying that the trinity is easier for me to understand, only because I've learned everything about it with years and years and years of practice in WoW since 2004, as well as other games like Rift, WAR, FFXI, SWTOR, FFXIV, etc.

    So I won't say one is truly better than the other, but due to my familiarity with trinity-based combat mechanics, I'd say that it gives designers a LOT of room and opportunity to create interesting mechanics and encounters.

    There are few challenges left for me outside of say raid-wide healing, which can certainly be a fun/difficult task, as over the years the rest has really devolved into simply memorizing patterns - pretty much learning dance moves and executing them.

    Go here, turn this way, move out of that, focus on this, now focus on that. Etc.

    The "art" of tanking/dps/cc etc. seems long gone from these games.

    When it was there, it was something truly special.

    I think your first sentence describes a great many people, and many of those people are the ones who show random gifs and/or youtube videos of GW2 content to attempt to show the "zerginess" of the game. Even that Tequatl gif a few posts up doesn't even show the full picture of that encounter, since all it shows is the attack team doing what it's supposed to be doing...attacking. Of course, because they themselves don't understand the nuance to what they are viewing, they wind up looking completely ignorant to those who understand what is truly happening.

    Other things that might look random, but are completely coordinated are things like elementalists dropping water fields and people using blast finishers to create a ton of aoe healing or blasting fire fields for might stacking, whirling in a light field for condition removal, etc.

    I will always admit though that compared to something like WoW, GW2 style action combat is always going to look like mass chaos to most everyone.

    I will argue the point of when there was any "art" to the trinity. I don't feel like there was every truly an "art" to it, but rather the mechanics were tuned in such a way that a single mistake could cause a wipe. At the core though, Tanks still taunted, CC'ers still just CC'd and DPS folks DPSed. There hasn't been a fundamental change to the trinity in the nearly 20 years I have been playing mmos. Encounters have changed quite a bit, for the better for the most part.

    Indeed. If trinity is all you've know all your life, non-trinity combat, or any PvP for that matter, will seem like chaos.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Ye no deadly boss mods popping up countdowns left right and center to tell thrm when to jump 4 paces to the right, and bosses that chase you even though there's no threat meter!, I can imagine their horror, how the hell do they do their rotations in that :p

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Ye no deadly boss mods popping up countdowns left right and center to tell thrm when to jump 4 paces to the right, and bosses that chase you even though there's no threat meter!, I can imagine their horror, how the hell do they do their rotations in that :p

    And worst part:

    they cannot blame anyone else :)

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,349
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I gave up on group content in GW2 before I think I got enough experience with it to fully understand and appreciate the nuances. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

    I will consent to saying that the trinity is easier for me to understand, only because I've learned everything about it with years and years and years of practice in WoW since 2004, as well as other games like Rift, WAR, FFXI, SWTOR, FFXIV, etc.

    So I won't say one is truly better than the other, but due to my familiarity with trinity-based combat mechanics, I'd say that it gives designers a LOT of room and opportunity to create interesting mechanics and encounters.

    There are few challenges left for me outside of say raid-wide healing, which can certainly be a fun/difficult task, as over the years the rest has really devolved into simply memorizing patterns - pretty much learning dance moves and executing them.

    Go here, turn this way, move out of that, focus on this, now focus on that. Etc.

    The "art" of tanking/dps/cc etc. seems long gone from these games.

    When it was there, it was something truly special.

    GW2 was so lacking for me I did not get that far as well. We know trinity, so it is easy to do of the bat. But I am happy to try out a new combat system, the issue is we have trinity or a zerg. In the interests of easymode and solo play trinity was dropped, so we are not going to see other group combat systems.

    Group combat systems simply do not fit into where designers want MMO's heading.

    I love how simple and black & white your world is. You've got it all figured out, I see. How could anyone disagree with that?

    My evidence is the near total lack of any other group combat system being tried out and the removal over the years of trinity mechanics. If you have something you have spotted to suggest otherwise do say.

    I am not the sort of person who uses "maybe" and "IMO" as a form of punctuation in my replies. As I am human, I think anyone should be able to guess I could be wrong. :)

     

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • ThaneThane Member EpicPosts: 3,505
    Originally posted by Kiyoris

    Some people love to hate on trinity, but it is still the superior combat system.

    The major alternative so far has been making every class a DPS class, and introduce dodging and evading attacks. Basically this is how 99% of the games from Korea work. It's basically console gameplay.

    The problem is that it's solo gameplay, even in a group, you're basically a class that solos, you don't talk during the battle, you don't ask for heals or ask for support, there's no designated CC or designated puller, no designated tank, you basically...mash buttons and constantly dodge.

    I just can't wrap my head around how people think this is good. It's bad, pretty awful compared to trinity where your group is dependent on each other, and where everyone has a well defined function.

    Combat in Korean MMO is too easy, boring and repetitive.

    Raids in those Korean MMO are even worse, they're zergs, they really are, there is no cooperation, no class officers, no preparation, just mash those buttons.

     

    This action style combat has other downsides, the fact those games lack any form of community, why socialise when you can just solo everything and don't depend on anyone. It actually attracts console players, and anti-social people. It's mindless zerg and there is no sense of community or hierarchy or class definition.

     

    Combat in MMO has become stupid, it's so dumbed down to the point of being console combat.

    sorry but calling the trinity superior is EXACTLY the main prob.

    you got heal, dd and tanks. everyone has his or her set role. and THAT is what screws the idea.

     

    they simply forgot CC or rather removed on ALL of those chars.

    when it started (even in WoW damnit), it was all about sheep sap go.

     

    nowadays? you get a timer from the tank telling the heal to be ready and the dds to take their pots.

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I gave up on group content in GW2 before I think I got enough experience with it to fully understand and appreciate the nuances. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

    I will consent to saying that the trinity is easier for me to understand, only because I've learned everything about it with years and years and years of practice in WoW since 2004, as well as other games like Rift, WAR, FFXI, SWTOR, FFXIV, etc.

    So I won't say one is truly better than the other, but due to my familiarity with trinity-based combat mechanics, I'd say that it gives designers a LOT of room and opportunity to create interesting mechanics and encounters.

    There are few challenges left for me outside of say raid-wide healing, which can certainly be a fun/difficult task, as over the years the rest has really devolved into simply memorizing patterns - pretty much learning dance moves and executing them.

    Go here, turn this way, move out of that, focus on this, now focus on that. Etc.

    The "art" of tanking/dps/cc etc. seems long gone from these games.

    When it was there, it was something truly special.

    GW2 was so lacking for me I did not get that far as well. We know trinity, so it is easy to do of the bat. But I am happy to try out a new combat system, the issue is we have trinity or a zerg. In the interests of easymode and solo play trinity was dropped, so we are not going to see other group combat systems.

    Group combat systems simply do not fit into where designers want MMO's heading.

    I love how simple and black & white your world is. You've got it all figured out, I see. How could anyone disagree with that?

    My evidence is the near total lack of any other group combat system being tried out and the removal over the years of trinity mechanics. If you have something you have spotted to suggest otherwise do say.

    I am not the sort of person who uses "maybe" and "IMO" as a form of punctuation in my replies. As I am human, I think anyone should be able to guess I could be wrong. :)

     

    edit. self moderate.

     

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I gave up on group content in GW2 before I think I got enough experience with it to fully understand and appreciate the nuances. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

    I will consent to saying that the trinity is easier for me to understand, only because I've learned everything about it with years and years and years of practice in WoW since 2004, as well as other games like Rift, WAR, FFXI, SWTOR, FFXIV, etc.

    So I won't say one is truly better than the other, but due to my familiarity with trinity-based combat mechanics, I'd say that it gives designers a LOT of room and opportunity to create interesting mechanics and encounters.

    There are few challenges left for me outside of say raid-wide healing, which can certainly be a fun/difficult task, as over the years the rest has really devolved into simply memorizing patterns - pretty much learning dance moves and executing them.

    Go here, turn this way, move out of that, focus on this, now focus on that. Etc.

    The "art" of tanking/dps/cc etc. seems long gone from these games.

    When it was there, it was something truly special.

    GW2 was so lacking for me I did not get that far as well. We know trinity, so it is easy to do of the bat. But I am happy to try out a new combat system, the issue is we have trinity or a zerg. In the interests of easymode and solo play trinity was dropped, so we are not going to see other group combat systems.

    Group combat systems simply do not fit into where designers want MMO's heading.

    I love how simple and black & white your world is. You've got it all figured out, I see. How could anyone disagree with that?

    My evidence is the near total lack of any other group combat system being tried out and the removal over the years of trinity mechanics. If you have something you have spotted to suggest otherwise do say.

    I am not the sort of person who uses "maybe" and "IMO" as a form of punctuation in my replies. As I am human, I think anyone should be able to guess I could be wrong. :)

    How about tabletop RPGs? Games other than MMORPGs? Hell, any PvP in any game! Your lack of evidence is all on you.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I gave up on group content in GW2 before I think I got enough experience with it to fully understand and appreciate the nuances. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

    I will consent to saying that the trinity is easier for me to understand, only because I've learned everything about it with years and years and years of practice in WoW since 2004, as well as other games like Rift, WAR, FFXI, SWTOR, FFXIV, etc.

    So I won't say one is truly better than the other, but due to my familiarity with trinity-based combat mechanics, I'd say that it gives designers a LOT of room and opportunity to create interesting mechanics and encounters.

    There are few challenges left for me outside of say raid-wide healing, which can certainly be a fun/difficult task, as over the years the rest has really devolved into simply memorizing patterns - pretty much learning dance moves and executing them.

    Go here, turn this way, move out of that, focus on this, now focus on that. Etc.

    The "art" of tanking/dps/cc etc. seems long gone from these games.

    When it was there, it was something truly special.

    GW2 was so lacking for me I did not get that far as well. We know trinity, so it is easy to do of the bat. But I am happy to try out a new combat system, the issue is we have trinity or a zerg. In the interests of easymode and solo play trinity was dropped, so we are not going to see other group combat systems.

    Group combat systems simply do not fit into where designers want MMO's heading.

    I love how simple and black & white your world is. You've got it all figured out, I see. How could anyone disagree with that?

    My evidence is the near total lack of any other group combat system being tried out and the removal over the years of trinity mechanics. If you have something you have spotted to suggest otherwise do say.

    Your problem here is that if the combat isn't packaged in a specific 4 or 5 man group, then it isn't group combat to you, despite the presence or even need for teamwork. Puzzle Pirates, Wizard 101, Pirate 101, Asheron's Call, Atlantica Online, Grepolis, and Travian all have other group combat systems, some of them being around for a decade or so.

    I am not the sort of person who uses "maybe" and "IMO" as a form of punctuation in my replies. As I am human, I think anyone should be able to guess I could be wrong. :)

     Correct. You've been very consistent in expressing that it isn't that you don't know the difference between fact and opinion, it is that you don't care there is a difference.

    EDIT: Quirhid, thank you for bringing up the obvious one -  almost every form of PVP.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,349
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I gave up on group content in GW2 before I think I got enough experience with it to fully understand and appreciate the nuances. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

    I will consent to saying that the trinity is easier for me to understand, only because I've learned everything about it with years and years and years of practice in WoW since 2004, as well as other games like Rift, WAR, FFXI, SWTOR, FFXIV, etc.

    So I won't say one is truly better than the other, but due to my familiarity with trinity-based combat mechanics, I'd say that it gives designers a LOT of room and opportunity to create interesting mechanics and encounters.

    There are few challenges left for me outside of say raid-wide healing, which can certainly be a fun/difficult task, as over the years the rest has really devolved into simply memorizing patterns - pretty much learning dance moves and executing them.

    Go here, turn this way, move out of that, focus on this, now focus on that. Etc.

    The "art" of tanking/dps/cc etc. seems long gone from these games.

    When it was there, it was something truly special.

    GW2 was so lacking for me I did not get that far as well. We know trinity, so it is easy to do of the bat. But I am happy to try out a new combat system, the issue is we have trinity or a zerg. In the interests of easymode and solo play trinity was dropped, so we are not going to see other group combat systems.

    Group combat systems simply do not fit into where designers want MMO's heading.

    I love how simple and black & white your world is. You've got it all figured out, I see. How could anyone disagree with that?

    My evidence is the near total lack of any other group combat system being tried out and the removal over the years of trinity mechanics. If you have something you have spotted to suggest otherwise do say.

    Your problem here is that if the combat isn't packaged in a specific 4 or 5 man group, then it isn't group combat to you, despite the presence or even need for teamwork. Puzzle Pirates, Wizard 101, Pirate 101, Asheron's Call, Atlantica Online, Grepolis, and Travian all have other group combat systems, some of them being around for a decade or so.

    I am not the sort of person who uses "maybe" and "IMO" as a form of punctuation in my replies. As I am human, I think anyone should be able to guess I could be wrong. :)

     Correct. You've been very consistent in expressing that it isn't that you don't know the difference between fact and opinion, it is that you don't care there is a difference.

    EDIT: Quirhid, thank you for bringing up the obvious one -  almost every form of PVP.

    I am really not sure what Quirhid is getting at. He mentioned table top RPG's not sure what he is trying to say there?

    Of those games you mentioned I have played Asheron's Call (ages ago) and had a look at Wizard 101 (not sure its a MMO). I suppose this may come down to what we call a different group combat system? To me AC was not different, can you tell us how it was? Wizard did have a different mechanic, not sure I would call it a group combat mechanic but my time there was limited. The rest I have never played, could you give us a couple of examples of how they differ?

    We may be moving away from what a MMO is here. I think EVE has a very different group combat mechanic, but it is not a MMO in my eyes. Likewise Planetside does, but it is a MMOFPS and borrows much from FPS group play. So if you start to move away from MMO's you will find other kinds of group PvP.

    Large scale PvP is group PvP. Take AoC or DAoC sieges for example. But yes, here I am focusing on smaller groups, I am not saying there has been no development on the larger scale, but I do see it as tactical rather than group role.

    Even large scale is built for easymode solo players now. Take that GW2 siege just announced, correct me if I misheard, but I think Bill said it lasted no more than 15 mins. OMG the drama if anyone should be expected to be online for more than 15 minutes. :)

     

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I gave up on group content in GW2 before I think I got enough experience with it to fully understand and appreciate the nuances. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

    I will consent to saying that the trinity is easier for me to understand, only because I've learned everything about it with years and years and years of practice in WoW since 2004, as well as other games like Rift, WAR, FFXI, SWTOR, FFXIV, etc.

    So I won't say one is truly better than the other, but due to my familiarity with trinity-based combat mechanics, I'd say that it gives designers a LOT of room and opportunity to create interesting mechanics and encounters.

    There are few challenges left for me outside of say raid-wide healing, which can certainly be a fun/difficult task, as over the years the rest has really devolved into simply memorizing patterns - pretty much learning dance moves and executing them.

    Go here, turn this way, move out of that, focus on this, now focus on that. Etc.

    The "art" of tanking/dps/cc etc. seems long gone from these games.

    When it was there, it was something truly special.

    GW2 was so lacking for me I did not get that far as well. We know trinity, so it is easy to do of the bat. But I am happy to try out a new combat system, the issue is we have trinity or a zerg. In the interests of easymode and solo play trinity was dropped, so we are not going to see other group combat systems.

    Group combat systems simply do not fit into where designers want MMO's heading.

    I love how simple and black & white your world is. You've got it all figured out, I see. How could anyone disagree with that?

    My evidence is the near total lack of any other group combat system being tried out and the removal over the years of trinity mechanics. If you have something you have spotted to suggest otherwise do say.

    Your problem here is that if the combat isn't packaged in a specific 4 or 5 man group, then it isn't group combat to you, despite the presence or even need for teamwork. Puzzle Pirates, Wizard 101, Pirate 101, Asheron's Call, Atlantica Online, Grepolis, and Travian all have other group combat systems, some of them being around for a decade or so.

    I am not the sort of person who uses "maybe" and "IMO" as a form of punctuation in my replies. As I am human, I think anyone should be able to guess I could be wrong. :)

     Correct. You've been very consistent in expressing that it isn't that you don't know the difference between fact and opinion, it is that you don't care there is a difference.

    EDIT: Quirhid, thank you for bringing up the obvious one -  almost every form of PVP.

    I am really not sure what Quirhid is getting at. He mentioned table top RPG's not sure what he is trying to say there?

    Of those games you mentioned I have played Asheron's Call (ages ago) and had a look at Wizard 101 (not sure its a MMO). I suppose this may come down to what we call a different group combat system? To me AC was not different, can you tell us how it was? Wizard did have a different mechanic, not sure I would call it a group combat mechanic but my time there was limited. The rest I have never played, could you give us a couple of examples of how they differ?

    We may be moving away from what a MMO is here. I think EVE has a very different group combat mechanic, but it is not a MMO in my eyes. Likewise Planetside does, but it is a MMOFPS and borrows much from FPS group play. So if you start to move away from MMO's you will find other kinds of group PvP.

    Large scale PvP is group PvP. Take AoC or DAoC sieges for example. But yes, here I am focusing on smaller groups, I am not saying there has been no development on the larger scale, but I do see it as tactical rather than group role.

    Even large scale is built for easymode solo players now. Take that GW2 siege just announced, correct me if I misheard, but I think Bill said it lasted no more than 15 mins. OMG the drama if anyone should be expected to be online for more than 15 minutes. :)

     

    Yeah, if you exlude MMOs from MMOs....EvE is not MMO? GW2 is not MMO?

    Which MMOs should we exlude from the MMOs so it can fit your argument. Please, make a list :)

    In fact what YOU really want is small coop/lobby game, which wouldnt be included in MMOs.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by Loktofeit   You've been very consistent in expressing that it isn't that you don't know the difference between fact and opinion, it is that you don't care there is a difference.

    Wizard 101 (not sure its a MMO). 

    I think EVE has a very different group combat mechanic, but it is not a MMO in my eyes. 

    When I made that statement, I was hoping you would understand it is something to work on correcting and not something to proudly reinforce in your very next post. 

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,349

     

    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by Loktofeit   You've been very consistent in expressing that it isn't that you don't know the difference between fact and opinion, it is that you don't care there is a difference.

    Wizard 101 (not sure its a MMO). 

    I think EVE has a very different group combat mechanic, but it is not a MMO in my eyes. 

    When I made that statement, I was hoping you would understand it is something to work on correcting and not something to proudly reinforce in your very next post. 

    This is for the other fellow - when did I say GW2 was not a MMO?

    Loktofeit if that is your only answer, it seems to me you have no reply. You seem to know these games better than me, tell us what is different.

    I am making an argument about mainstream MMOs, If you wish to widen this out to PvP in all games, then yes there have been changes. That does not answer my issues about where the MMO industry has gone.

     

     

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  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Originally posted by Scot

     

    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by Loktofeit   You've been very consistent in expressing that it isn't that you don't know the difference between fact and opinion, it is that you don't care there is a difference.

    Wizard 101 (not sure its a MMO). 

    I think EVE has a very different group combat mechanic, but it is not a MMO in my eyes. 

    When I made that statement, I was hoping you would understand it is something to work on correcting and not something to proudly reinforce in your very next post. 

    This is for the other fellow - when did I say GW2 was not a MMO?

    Loktofeit if that is your only answer, it seems to me you have no reply. You seem to know these games better than me, tell us what is different.

    I am making an argument about mainstream MMOs, If you wish to widen this out to PvP in all games, then yes there have been changes. That does not answer my issues about where the MMO industry has gone.

     

     

      Eve is very much a MMO.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Scot

     

    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by Loktofeit   You've been very consistent in expressing that it isn't that you don't know the difference between fact and opinion, it is that you don't care there is a difference.

    Wizard 101 (not sure its a MMO). 

    I think EVE has a very different group combat mechanic, but it is not a MMO in my eyes. 

    When I made that statement, I was hoping you would understand it is something to work on correcting and not something to proudly reinforce in your very next post. 

    This is for the other fellow - when did I say GW2 was not a MMO?

    Loktofeit if that is your only answer, it seems to me you have no reply. You seem to know these games better than me, tell us what is different.

    I am making an argument about mainstream MMOs, If you wish to widen this out to PvP in all games, then yes there have been changes. That does not answer my issues about where the MMO industry has gone.

     

    You made it so that no one can give you an answer, because when you get an example that you don't like, you just stick your head in the sand and say "Thats not an MMO in my eyes."

    Scot, I gave you a reply. You returned with this. Honestly, crap like that should get you punted from the forum or at least the thread, because you've been here long enough that a reply like that is either intentionally trying to provoke a negative response or simply a refusal to understand even the basics of the discussion you are interjecting in. I say 'refusal' because you have been posting here in these same types of threads for over a decade. If you don't understanding even the basics of the subject matter by now, it is because you simply don't want to. 

    It's like discussing mathematics and every time the number four comes up in an equation some guy jumps in to insist the solution is wrong because in their world the value of four is nine and a quarter. 

    It's pretty frustrating. 

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,349
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Scot

     

    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by Loktofeit   You've been very consistent in expressing that it isn't that you don't know the difference between fact and opinion, it is that you don't care there is a difference.

    Wizard 101 (not sure its a MMO). 

    I think EVE has a very different group combat mechanic, but it is not a MMO in my eyes. 

    When I made that statement, I was hoping you would understand it is something to work on correcting and not something to proudly reinforce in your very next post. 

    This is for the other fellow - when did I say GW2 was not a MMO?

    Loktofeit if that is your only answer, it seems to me you have no reply. You seem to know these games better than me, tell us what is different.

    I am making an argument about mainstream MMOs, If you wish to widen this out to PvP in all games, then yes there have been changes. That does not answer my issues about where the MMO industry has gone.

     

    You made it so that no one can give you an answer, because when you get an example that you don't like, you just stick your head in the sand and say "Thats not an MMO in my eyes."

    Scot, I gave you a reply. You returned with this. Honestly, crap like that should get you punted from the forum or at least the thread, because you've been here long enough that a reply like that is either intentionally trying to provoke a negative response or simply a refusal to understand even the basics of the discussion you are interjecting in. I say 'refusal' because you have been posting here in these same types of threads for over a decade. If you don't understanding even the basics of the subject matter by now, it is because you simply don't want to. 

    It's like discussing mathematics and every time the number four comes up in an equation some guy jumps in to insist the solution is wrong because in their world the value of four is nine and a quarter. 

    It's pretty frustrating. 

    We are discussing group combat mechanics, I think its pretty fair not to put EVE in that discussion, because we cant compare like for like. Same for Wizard 101. But I am happy to hear about those combat systems, as I don't even know all those games I am not saying all of them are not MMOs. I just replied to what I had played.

    Maybe this will make more sense to you. If the group combat PvP had evolved or just changed, it would have evolved in MMOs that have existed a long time. So has that happened? I don't see it, if anything it has just got more easymode, more non-existent. I am not saying we see no MMOs coming out with decent group combat mechanics either, ESO was good. But AAA used to always have them, now you just can't be sure what they will launch with.

    No two players are going to always agree on what games are a MMO, I struggle to understand your beef with that. We are no different from all the others.

     

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  • RelativeKevinRelativeKevin Member Posts: 4

    There is something to enjoy about having a defined role in the game world, knowing what you are supposed to bring to the table and how each member of the group can/will contribute. That stability for party play is something other types of combat have failed to rectify.

     

    Action combat (for lack of a better term, or "Non-Trinity I suppose) is by no means bad or undesirable; however, it is my opinion that people play better and offer better experiences with each other when it is clear what each class/person is trying to do with their setup. Games like GW2, ESO, and the like do a poor job of giving the players an innate ability to understand what other players are trying to accomplish and how their playstyle will mesh with others. This leads to a bit of confusion, and diminishes the desire to work together towards common goals since when anonymous people group together in a less defined class setting, confusion most often follows.

     

    I personally believe that the best party based system that could be offered for group play is one where the Trinity system is in effect, while also giving players the ability to change their roles to suit what needs to be done for particular groups. People always harp on the biggest negative with Trinity, which is having to rely on other people to play and sometimes missing that key element in the party (healer, tank, support). Allow players to be fluid in their class, being able to play multiple classes at a time or switch at a given moment (think FF14) while also having a defined Trinity based system which players can understand what roles need to be filled and played in a party situation. This, in my opinion, provides great flexibility which allows players to make up for the lack of available roles or players in a given situation while also creating necessary structure to group play.

  • MagdaerMagdaer Member Posts: 10

    I prefer a soft trinity. I am not for or against tanking but I am a fan of support, healing, and CC. GW1 accomplished this gloriously.

    These non trinity MMOs do feel like everyone is just plain DPS and no defined roles - I hate it with a passion.

    I love Trions approach with Rift, any class can be any role. I want to heal on my rogue? Swap to physician. I want to tank? Swap to Riftstalker. I want to Dps? Swap to whatever I prefer AoE or single target or even a mix of both. I want to support? Swap to Bard or similar. This is what an MMO should be in my opinion.

    Certainly I feel that the encounters in non trinity raids and dungeons pale in comparison to trinity raids and dungeons. You don't feel the team work in non trinity, it just feels like every man for himself.. fuck those guys cuz I got my own heals and CC plus the DPS to boot. What is the point in even grouping, hell just make everything solo instanced may as well.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,349
    Originally posted by Magdaer

    I prefer a soft trinity. I am not for or against tanking but I am a fan of support, healing, and CC. GW1 accomplished this gloriously.

    These non trinity MMOs do feel like everyone is just plain DPS and no defined roles - I hate it with a passion.

    I love Trions approach with Rift, any class can be any role. I want to heal on my rogue? Swap to physician. I want to tank? Swap to Riftstalker. I want to Dps? Swap to whatever I prefer AoE or single target or even a mix of both. I want to support? Swap to Bard or similar. This is what an MMO should be in my opinion.

    Certainly I feel that the encounters in non trinity raids and dungeons pale in comparison to trinity raids and dungeons. You don't feel the team work in non trinity, it just feels like every man for himself.. fuck those guys cuz I got my own heals and CC plus the DPS to boot. What is the point in even grouping, hell just make everything solo instanced may as well.

    The Rift approach was good, being able to swap your role made for more variety and allowed groups to form more easily as players could change their role to fit the group. That leads to one way of squaring the circle of solo and group, but it is not easily accessible, not easymode.

    You have a different class in a group than you do solo, your group class. With its own role like healer, but back when soloing you switch to more rounded character.

    I doubt switching to other classes and putting a different 'playing hat' on has been seen as easily accessible, so unfortunately I am not sure we will see that again in a hurry.

     

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  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Originally posted by Magdaer

    I prefer a soft trinity. 

    Soft Trinity describes non-trinity in reality perfectly, where cc can in itself be a form of tanking, e.g grab aggro, slow and kite boss.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by Magdaer

    I prefer a soft trinity. I am not for or against tanking but I am a fan of support, healing, and CC. GW1 accomplished this gloriously.

    These non trinity MMOs do feel like everyone is just plain DPS and no defined roles - I hate it with a passion.

    I love Trions approach with Rift, any class can be any role. I want to heal on my rogue? Swap to physician. I want to tank? Swap to Riftstalker. I want to Dps? Swap to whatever I prefer AoE or single target or even a mix of both. I want to support? Swap to Bard or similar. This is what an MMO should be in my opinion.

    Certainly I feel that the encounters in non trinity raids and dungeons pale in comparison to trinity raids and dungeons. You don't feel the team work in non trinity, it just feels like every man for himself.. fuck those guys cuz I got my own heals and CC plus the DPS to boot. What is the point in even grouping, hell just make everything solo instanced may as well.

    The Rift approach was good, being able to swap your role made for more variety and allowed groups to form more easily as players could change their role to fit the group. That leads to one way of squaring the circle of solo and group, but it is not easily accessible, not easymode.

    You have a different class in a group than you do solo, your group class. With its own role like healer, but back when soloing you switch to more rounded character.

    I doubt switching to other classes and putting a different 'playing hat' on has been seen as easily accessible, so unfortunately I am not sure we will see that again in a hurry.

     

         I agree with both post above as they address some good points..  I've played Rift for a bit, and while I liked some aspects of the game, other parts were just dull..   For me, most of the classes (roles) felt the same.. Unlike in the old age of gaming where playing a druid could never feel like playing a bard, or necro or chanter..  I blame most of this on the PvP crowd..  Lets be honest here, CLASSES are designed first and foremost for PvP balance, and given little to no consideration to PvE play..  This is why I think most combat mechanics steer away from trinity role playing, and lean towards action non-trinity play.. 

         You can't have an EQ type chanter going around in a PvP battle MEZING and mind controlling other players for minutes on end..  You can't have an EQ type druid kiting a warrior to death.. Most of the skills and abilities in older games are just too OP for today's PvP Esport MMO's..  Look at Blizzard, they nerf the shit out of most class definiing skills in PvP play.. As I have always talked about, you can't have a vibrant exciting trinity combat while still pleasing the PvP crowd.. As long as companies  are still trying to make their games both PvP and PvE playable, we'll continue to get half assed trinity role combat..

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